• OT A new world order and a bigger cold war coming?

    From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 02:28:28 2023
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet to
    show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Jan 23 10:10:48 2023
    On 2023-01-23 10:28:28 +0000, Andy Evans said:

    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs.
    Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military
    operations with Russia and China. India is yet to show its hand more
    clearly.
    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.
    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went
    something like this:

    Xi: What are you, crazy?
    Putin: They challenged me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
    Are you with me?
    Xi: Only to the extent that it doesn't involve us.


    -Owen

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 07:38:00 2023
    Op maandag 23 januari 2023 om 16:10:57 UTC+1 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    Perhaps Frank can help us. Some believe it has to do with the relation between the US dollar and commodities. Even the Saudi's want to put an end to the monopoly of the dollar. South-America just announced it is thinking about an equivalent of the EURO.

    Henk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Mon Jan 23 07:53:31 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went
    something like this:

    Xi: What are you, crazy?
    Putin: They challenged me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

    Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just paranoid and megalomaniac. Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but just wanted to point it out.

    Are you with me?
    Xi: Only to the extent that it doesn't involve us.


    -Owen

    I think the headline of this thread sounds as if it was written by some paranoid conspiracy theorist. Without having read anything Andy has said, I'd like to add something reasonable:

    It is much more that the roles between China and Russia have changed now (I mean this was likely even the case before the war - would have to read up more on this; I wonder how much the war contributed, he probably just accelerated this to the way it is
    now), while in the past China was dependant on Russia, it is now the other way around. And yes, I don't think China is particuarly fond Russia's war, China just wants to keep growing economically without war, and one also has to keep Taiwan in hindsight,
    China seeing the resistance of Ukraine might have changed their plans wrt Taiwan - not sure, just speculating.

    The "new world order" that seems to escape Andy's mind is that men can today be women (Miss Universe can actually be male), and women can be men. Or that children can get their tits cut off, while they have to be an adult to get a breast-augmentation. Or
    the utter insanity of New Zealand trying to ban smoking...

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 08:25:18 2023
    well, good you got some more teenage tits in.

    gotta get your kicks...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Jan 23 08:50:23 2023
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 17:25:21 UTC+1:
    well, good you got some more teenage tits in.

    gotta get your kicks...

    Again contributing nothing of value, but just showcasing your hateful personality again. (My favourite "Christian" Bob will ofc be quiet on this, as he usually is when it comes to Herman's hatred.)

    Coming from you who is a father, this is especially worrysome. You seem completely oblivious to the harm that is being done to children in the name of transgender-ideology.

    Using graphic terms to describe a dramatic problem is quite convenient; these are terms detrans people use themselves to vent and describe their pain, it's quite appropriate, or actually I think it may still sound to clean - "cutting" - what they do is
    utterly barbaric.

    In the past people with bpd (borderline personality disorder) cut themselves, today they cut their tits off - to put it bluntly. It's a very sad fact. These children are not getting the help they need.

    And instead of agreeing with me on this very obvious fact that children should not get their tits cut off and with which I'm sure you would actually agree with, has nothing but hate for me. Poor guy. This is opportunistic behaviour. Instead of sticking
    to his principles and agreeing with me, he tries to take advantage of the fact I said "cut tits off" - quite pitiful. Or maybe you are already sick enough to believe that transgender-"healthcare" which involves double mastectomies is approriate.

    Joanne K Rowling about Transgender-Ideology; and as Andy may know, she receives a lot of hate in the press for stating very obvious facts:

    https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 09:12:31 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:50:26 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 17:25:21 UTC+1:
    well, good you got some more teenage tits in.

    gotta get your kicks...

    And instead of agreeing with me on this very obvious fact that children should not get their tits cut off

    All I do is note that you're always trying to get something like the phrase "teenage tits" in. It's an obsession.
    Indeed as it happens I am dad to a teenage girl, happily, and that's why I note this, because you are a one person red flag parade.

    It's also obvious that again this is just a theoretical issue for you, just as you keep going on and on about Jewish issues and keep telling Jewish participants they're either bad Jews or anitsemitic Jews.

    You're just a sicko.
    End of dialogue for me.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Jan 23 09:19:30 2023
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 18:12:34 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:50:26 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 17:25:21 UTC+1:
    well, good you got some more teenage tits in.

    gotta get your kicks...

    And instead of agreeing with me on this very obvious fact that children should not get their tits cut off
    All I do is note that you're always trying to get something like the phrase "teenage tits" in. It's an obsession.
    Indeed as it happens I am dad to a teenage girl, happily, and that's why I note this, because you are a one person red flag parade.

    It's also obvious that again this is just a theoretical issue for you, just as you keep going on and on about Jewish issues and keep telling Jewish participants they're either bad Jews or anitsemitic Jews.

    You're just a sicko.
    End of dialogue for me.

    If I speak out for Israel it is wrong, if I speak out for mutilated children it is wrong... you really have some serious issues.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 12:17:34 2023
    On 1/23/2023 10:38 AM, HT wrote:
    Op maandag 23 januari 2023 om 16:10:57 UTC+1 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of
    Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China.
    Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil
    states.

    Perhaps Frank can help us. Some believe it has to do with the relation between the US dollar and commodities. Even the Saudi's want to put an end to the monopoly of the dollar. South-America just announced it is thinking about an equivalent of the EURO.

    Henk

    I claim no particular expertise on the matter, but I suspect it doesn't matter. Currencies have values one against another based on underlying phenomena, like divergent rates of inflation, productivity, confidence.
    I don't even know what "the monopoly of the dollar" means.

    Having said that, in my heart of hearts i believe that monopolization by governments of the money supply (and setting of interest rates) is a bad thing. Humans seem to want to regulate what seem to be chaotic free markets. This is a mistake, but I
    expect to convince no one of that.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Jan 23 09:22:03 2023
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 17:25:21 UTC+1:
    well, good you got some more teenage tits in.

    gotta get your kicks...

    **corrected version as I didn't fully correct the fifth paragraph**

    Again contributing nothing of value, but just showcasing your hateful personality again. (My favourite "Christian" Bob will ofc be quiet on this, as he usually is when it comes to Herman's hatred.)

    Coming from you who is a father, this is especially worrysome. You seem completely oblivious to the harm that is being done to children in the name of transgender-ideology.

    Using graphic terms to describe this dramatic problem is quite convenient; these are terms detrans people use themselves to vent and describe their pain, it's quite appropriate, or actually I think it may still sound too clean - "cutting" - what they do
    is utterly barbaric.

    In the past people with bpd (borderline personality disorder) cut themselves, today they cut their tits off - to put it bluntly. It's a very sad fact. These children are not getting the help they need.

    And instead of agreeing with me on this very obvious fact that children should not get their tits cut of and with which I'm sure you would actually agree with, you have nothing but hate for me. Poor guy. This is opportunistic behaviour. Instead of
    sticking to your principles and agreeing with me, you try to take advantage of the fact I said "cut tits off" - quite pitiful and pathetic.

    Joanne K Rowling about Transgender-Ideology; and as Andy may know, she receives a lot of hate in the press for stating very obvious facts:

    https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Jan 23 09:16:19 2023
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 18:12:34 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:50:26 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 17:25:21 UTC+1:
    well, good you got some more teenage tits in.

    gotta get your kicks...

    And instead of agreeing with me on this very obvious fact that children should not get their tits cut off
    All I do is note that you're always trying to get something like the phrase "teenage tits" in. It's an obsession.

    Keep projecting and neglecting the problem. I contributed to this thread. If you want to say anything meaningful about this very serious problem please do so. Instead of attacking me, maybe attack the doctors that are obsessed with cutting of children's
    tits you ignorant fuck.

    Indeed as it happens I am dad to a teenage girl, happily, and that's why I note this, because you are a one person red flag parade.

    It's also obvious that again this is just a theoretical issue for you, just as you keep going on and on about Jewish issues and keep telling Jewish participants they're either bad Jews or anitsemitic Jews.

    You're just a sicko.
    End of dialogue for me.

    Fuck off.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Jan 23 12:23:32 2023
    On 1/23/2023 12:12 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:50:26 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 17:25:21 UTC+1:
    well, good you got some more teenage tits in.

    gotta get your kicks...

    And instead of agreeing with me on this very obvious fact that children should not get their tits cut off

    All I do is note that you're always trying to get something like the phrase "teenage tits" in. It's an obsession.
    Indeed as it happens I am dad to a teenage girl, happily, and that's why I note this, because you are a one person red flag parade.

    It's also obvious that again this is just a theoretical issue for you, just as you keep going on and on about Jewish issues and keep telling Jewish participants they're either bad Jews or anitsemitic Jews.

    You're just a sicko.
    End of dialogue for me.


    Herman, you have to think about what the term antisemitism means. It can mean different things to different people. So in calling someone an antisemite, the accuser may not mean what the accused thinks he means. Example: A person has not hatred in his
    heart for Jews. He would be happy for his child to marry one. But, he thinks the Jews have little or no claim to the Holy Land. But Judaism includes such a claim (right or wrong, valid or not), so to say you can be as Jewish as you want on my terms but
    you have no claim to Israel can reasonably be called antisemitic. All this with no hatred in his heart at all.
    There are degrees of bias, prejudice, even hatred. Everything is not so simple.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Jan 23 09:30:48 2023
    Frank Berger schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 18:23:41 UTC+1:
    On 1/23/2023 12:12 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:50:26 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 17:25:21 UTC+1:
    well, good you got some more teenage tits in.

    gotta get your kicks...

    And instead of agreeing with me on this very obvious fact that children should not get their tits cut off

    All I do is note that you're always trying to get something like the phrase "teenage tits" in. It's an obsession.
    Indeed as it happens I am dad to a teenage girl, happily, and that's why I note this, because you are a one person red flag parade.

    It's also obvious that again this is just a theoretical issue for you, just as you keep going on and on about Jewish issues and keep telling Jewish participants they're either bad Jews or anitsemitic Jews.

    You're just a sicko.
    End of dialogue for me.
    Herman, you have to think about what the term antisemitism means. It can mean different things to different people. So in calling someone an antisemite, the accuser may not mean what the accused thinks he means. Example: A person has not hatred in his
    heart for Jews. He would be happy for his child to marry one. But, he thinks the Jews have little or no claim to the Holy Land. But Judaism includes such a claim (right or wrong, valid or not), so to say you can be as Jewish as you want on my terms but
    you have no claim to Israel can reasonably be called antisemitic. All this with no hatred in his heart at all.
    There are degrees of bias, prejudice, even hatred. Everything is not so simple.

    In case you have unblocked me or for anyone to read actually. What you say is ofc true in a sense. But what Andy and Henk have said in the other thread, take it to Jewish Organizations that actually deal with defining antisemitism , 99% will agree that
    what Henk and Andy were saying is actually antisemitic. It's just a fact. And truth should be told.

    I love Schneerson for many things, but loving and kindness it not always the way. Reality has shown this.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 09:32:33 2023
    Can we keep this on topic please? This is a serious question. The world order is moving.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Jan 23 09:34:06 2023
    Andy Evans schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 18:32:36 UTC+1:
    Can we keep this on topic please? This is a serious question. The world order is moving.

    I was on topic. Wasn't I? I described how the world order is moving globally as well as nationally in Western countries wrt Transgender-Ideology.

    Anything you want to say about this?

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Jan 23 10:34:46 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 6:23:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    Herman, you have to think about what the term antisemitism means. It can mean different things to different people. So in calling someone an antisemite, the accuser may not mean what the accused thinks he means. Example: A person has not hatred in his
    heart for Jews. He would be happy for his child to marry one. But, he thinks the Jews have little or no claim to the Holy Land. But Judaism includes such a claim (right or wrong, valid or not), so to say you can be as Jewish as you want on my terms but
    you have no claim to Israel can reasonably be called antisemitic. All this with no hatred in his heart at all.
    There are degrees of bias, prejudice, even hatred. Everything is not so simple.

    I would recommend not calling people antisemite lightly, just because it's hardhitting.

    It's been a couple of weeks now that almost everyday someone gets called an antisemite here.

    It's a music group.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Gerard on Mon Jan 23 10:48:04 2023
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:34:38 UTC, Gerard wrote:

    That is a general phenomenon in this group: no one convinces anyone of whatever, specially not of everything that is not classical music related. Endless "discussions" without any meaning.

    Discussions don't have to be meaningless. There are some good brains here.

    It just requires discussions to stay on topic and not respond to internet trolls in any way.

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  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to g_hendriksen-nospam-@live.com on Mon Jan 23 18:49:24 2023
    In article <tqmjvq$vbb$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
    Gerard <g_hendriksen-nospam-@live.com> wrote:
    That is a general phenomenon in this group: no one convinces anyone
    of whatever, specially not of everything that is not classical music
    related. Endless "discussions" without any meaning.

    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations"
    posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real
    interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake
    of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.

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  • From Oscar@21:1/5 to herman on Mon Jan 23 10:57:45 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:34:49 AM, herman wrote:

    I would recommend not calling people antisemite lightly, just because it's hardhitting. It's been a couple of weeks now that almost everyday someone gets called an antisemite here.

    Rep. George Santos (R-N.Y.) is not a drag queen. He just admits to dressing in drag for a time.


    From New York Post, Jan. 22, 2023:

    << Lying Long Island Rep. George Santos finally admitted to dressing up as a woman in the past— though he denied he was a “drag queen” while talking to reporters at LaGuardia Airport on Saturday.

    “No, I was not a drag queen in Brazil, guys. I was young and I had fun at a festival. Sue me for having a life,” the embattled Republican congressman said, in his first public response since allegations that he performed as a drag queen named Kitara
    emerged last week.

    Santos, who is openly gay, had repeatedly tried to shoot down the reports of his cross-dressing past, which emerged last week after a photo from 2008 was posted online by Eula Rochard, a drag queen in Brazil and former friend of Santos.

    A video also surfaced of what appeared to be the freshman rep clad in a black dress and sunglasses, boasting about performing as a drag queen at the Pride parade in the Rio suburb of Niteroi in 2005.

    Santos and Rochard reportedly met when Rochard was already an established drag queen in a Brazilian city next to Rio de Janeiro. She said he went by “Anthony” when she knew him and that he “lied about everything.”

    She said Santos — who has also gone by the name Anthony Devolder — was never a professional drag performer because “he did not have what it takes.” >>


    https://nypost.com/2023/01/22/george-santos-admits-to-dressing-up-as-woman-but-denies-he-was-a-drag-queen/

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  • From Gerard@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 19:54:28 2023
    Op 2023-01-23 om 19:48 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:34:38 UTC, Gerard wrote:

    That is a general phenomenon in this group: no one convinces anyone of
    whatever, specially not of everything that is not classical music related. >> Endless "discussions" without any meaning.

    Discussions don't have to be meaningless. There are some good brains here.

    It just requires discussions to stay on topic and not respond to internet trolls in any way.

    They don't have to be meaningless, but in practice they are. Most posts
    are off topic, most are by fanatics, not worth reading.

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  • From Oscar@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Jan 23 11:08:51 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:33, Andy Evans wrote:

    <snip>

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    We have reached Peak China. It is a nation in decline. Xi knows this. Africa is a wild card, but unmanageable yet. India's future is growth. U.S. will continue to be the beacon of freedom and innovation, although heightened polarization is not to be
    taken lightly, and is real cause for concern. Russia? Shoulda nuked them on September 26th, 1983:


    From Wikipedia:

    << On 26 September 1983, during the Cold War, the nuclear early-warning radar of the Soviet Union reported the launch of one intercontinental ballistic missile with four more missiles behind it, from bases in the United States. These missile attack
    warnings were suspected to be false alarms by Stanislav Petrov, an officer of the Soviet Air Defence Forces on duty at the command center of the early-warning system. He decided to wait for corroborating evidence—of which none arrived—rather than
    immediately relaying the warning up the chain-of-command. This decision is seen as having prevented a retaliatory nuclear attack against the United States and its NATO allies, which would likely have resulted in an escalation to a full-scale nuclear war.
    Investigation of the satellite warning system later determined that the system had indeed malfunctioned . . .

    It was subsequently determined that the false alarms were caused by a rare alignment of sunlight on high-altitude clouds and the satellites' Molniya orbits, an error later corrected by cross-referencing a geostationary satellite.

    In explaining the factors leading to his decision, Petrov cited his belief and training that any U.S. first strike would be massive, so five missiles seemed an illogical start. In addition, the launch detection system was new and in his view not yet
    wholly trustworthy, while ground radar had failed to pick up corroborative evidence even after several minutes of the false alarm. >>

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident

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  • From Gerard@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 19:34:34 2023
    Op 2023-01-23 om 18:17 schreef Frank Berger:


    but I expect to convince no one of that.

    That is a general phenomenon in this group: no one convinces anyone of whatever, specially not of everything that is not classical music related. Endless "discussions" without any meaning.

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Gerard on Mon Jan 23 11:26:00 2023
    On 1/23/23 10:34 AM, Gerard wrote:
    Op 2023-01-23 om 18:17 schreef Frank Berger:


    but I expect to convince no one of that.

    That is a general phenomenon in this group: no one convinces anyone of whatever, specially not of everything that is not classical music related. Endless "discussions" without any meaning.



    Kind of reminds one of Facebook--except for the occasional reference to classical music :).

    Bob Harper

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Jan 23 11:18:25 2023
    On 1/23/23 2:28 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    In brief, perceived weakness in the US generates world disorder, as bad
    actors see an opportunity to gain power.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Jan 23 11:26:03 2023
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 19:18:29 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:

    In brief, perceived weakness in the US generates world disorder, as bad actors see an opportunity to gain power.
    Bob Harper

    That's one way of looking at it.

    But the sphere of influence of the USA is limited. I'm not aware of much action in Africa, for instance, and Africa is drifting towards Russia and China in the countries that aren't destroying themselves with endless internal wars. Africa will hit big
    problems with global warming and is likely to auto-destruct and send out floods of immigrants. But it is mineral rich and not without importance right now.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 11:49:00 2023
    Anyone writing some music for this story?

    One could take "Springtime for Hitler" as
    a template! ;-)

    Herman, you could write a string quartet
    "Xi and Putin".

    dk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Jan 23 12:57:16 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:48:06 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:34:38 UTC, Gerard wrote:

    That is a general phenomenon in this group: no one convinces anyone of whatever, specially not of everything that is not classical music related. Endless "discussions" without any meaning.
    Discussions don't have to be meaningless. There are some good brains here.

    It just requires discussions to stay on topic and not respond to internet trolls in any way.

    https://www.reactiongifs.us/you-talkin-to-me-taxi-driver/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Oscar on Mon Jan 23 13:00:43 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:08:54 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:33, Andy Evans wrote:

    <snip>

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?
    We have reached Peak China. It is a nation in decline. Xi knows this...

    (2023 Y. upload):

    "China Has 10 Years Left, Says Geopolitical Analyst Peter Zaihan"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Jan 23 13:04:55 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:48:06 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:34:38 UTC, Gerard wrote:

    That is a general phenomenon in this group: no one convinces anyone of whatever, specially not of everything that is not classical music related. Endless "discussions" without any meaning.
    Discussions don't have to be meaningless. There are some good brains here.

    It just requires discussions to stay on topic and not respond to internet trolls in any way.

    Internet trolls?:

    https://www.reactiongifs.us/you-talkin-to-me-taxi-driver/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Todd M. McComb on Mon Jan 23 14:56:24 2023
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations"
    posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real
    interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake
    of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.

    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Jan 23 15:12:37 2023
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake
    of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China. Just a
    few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 18:44:23 2023
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went>
    something like this:>> Xi: What are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged
    me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
    Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just paranoid and megalomaniac.
    Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but just wanted to point it out.

    Wasn't a joke.

    Of course Putin was challenged:

    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets
    of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within months,
    the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with pro-Western
    leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy happenstance.

    2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government to sack its
    top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.

    3) Suddenly, Ukraine is talking about joining NATO, the European
    equivalent of putting Russian missiles in Cuba.

    Even if Biden actually had NOTHING to do with the above, it doesn't
    matter. It's easy to see why Putin has suspicions. Our CIA is an old
    hand at creating regime changes. Can you see now why Putin thinks this
    is a plot from the west?

    Putin maybe paranoid and megalomaniac, but as Tom Clancy once said:
    "Even paranoids have enemies."

    Source: https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-05/bidens-visits-to-ukraine-under-scrutiny


    -Owen

    Are you with me?> Xi: Only to the extent that it doesn't involve us.>>> -Owen

    I think the headline of this thread sounds as if it was written by some paranoid conspiracy theorist. Without having read anything Andy has
    said, I'd like to add something reasonable:

    It is much more that the roles between China and Russia have changed
    now (I mean this was likely even the case before the war - would have
    to read up more on this; I wonder how much the war contributed, he
    probably just accelerated this to the way it is now), while in the past
    China was dependant on Russia, it is now the other way around. And yes,
    I don't think China is particuarly fond Russia's war, China just wants
    to keep growing economically without war, and one also has to keep
    Taiwan in hindsight, China seeing the resistance of Ukraine might have changed their plans wrt Taiwan - not sure, just speculating.

    The "new world order" that seems to escape Andy's mind is that men can
    today be women (Miss Universe can actually be male), and women can be
    men. Or that children can get their tits cut off, while they have to be
    an adult to get a breast-augmentation. Or the utter insanity of New
    Zealand trying to ban smoking...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to performanceandmedia@gmail.com on Mon Jan 23 23:32:18 2023
    In article <57706210-354b-4aff-b7bd-c7c998699854n@googlegroups.com>,
    Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring.
    Slim pickings here.

    True, but more tends to breed more... of either genre.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Mon Jan 23 23:04:39 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 00:44:32 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went>
    something like this:>> Xi: What are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged
    me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
    Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just paranoid and megalomaniac.
    Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but just wanted to point it out.

    Wasn't a joke.

    And I thought you were trying to be funny with your imagined dialogue between Xi and Putin...


    Of course Putin was challenged:

    What nonsense. The only one challenged here is Ukraine.


    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets
    of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within months,
    the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with pro-Western
    leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy happenstance.


    You love conspiracy theories, don't you? The majority of Ukraine was and is against a pro-Russian government - look at reality: the majority of Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian invasion.

    Have you ever heard of "Holodomor"? Do you really believe the Ukrainians long for a russian rule? That would be crazy.

    2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government to sack its
    top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.


    So what? The majority of Ukrainians are still against Russia.

    3) Suddenly, Ukraine is talking about joining NATO, the European
    equivalent of putting Russian missiles in Cuba.


    "Suddenly"... It is the right of every sovereign nation to express their wishes.

    Remember how "suddenly" Sweden and Finland intended to join the nato after Russia invaded Ukraine? Is it wrong of Sweden and Finland to want this?

    Even if Biden actually had NOTHING to do with the above, it doesn't
    matter. It's easy to see why Putin has suspicions. Our CIA is an old
    hand at creating regime changes. Can you see now why Putin thinks this
    is a plot from the west?


    So according to you it is the USA's and Ukraine's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine. Boy are you brainwashed by russian propaganda...

    Do you also believe that 9/11 was an inside plan?

    Putin maybe paranoid and megalomaniac, but as Tom Clancy once said:
    "Even paranoids have enemies."


    When I was young I enjoyed playing Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six (computer game) with my friends... I don't know much about him, but the quote is stupid - especially in this context.

    One should be angry at the Germans for their appeasement over the last years wrt to Putin, and how they won't send Leopard-Tanks because they are kissing Putin's butt (just as you are doing).

    You really have no idea what is going on in the ukraine, instead you sound like a conspiracy theorist.

    Source: https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-05/bidens-visits-to-ukraine-under-scrutiny


    -Owen

    Are you with me?> Xi: Only to the extent that it doesn't involve us.>>> -Owen

    I think the headline of this thread sounds as if it was written by some paranoid conspiracy theorist. Without having read anything Andy has
    said, I'd like to add something reasonable:

    It is much more that the roles between China and Russia have changed
    now (I mean this was likely even the case before the war - would have
    to read up more on this; I wonder how much the war contributed, he
    probably just accelerated this to the way it is now), while in the past China was dependant on Russia, it is now the other way around. And yes,
    I don't think China is particuarly fond Russia's war, China just wants
    to keep growing economically without war, and one also has to keep
    Taiwan in hindsight, China seeing the resistance of Ukraine might have changed their plans wrt Taiwan - not sure, just speculating.

    The "new world order" that seems to escape Andy's mind is that men can today be women (Miss Universe can actually be male), and women can be
    men. Or that children can get their tits cut off, while they have to be
    an adult to get a breast-augmentation. Or the utter insanity of New
    Zealand trying to ban smoking...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Tue Jan 24 03:50:12 2023
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 23:44:32 UTC, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    Of course Putin was challenged:

    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets
    of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within months,
    the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with pro-Western
    leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy happenstance.
    2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government to sack its
    top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.
    3) Suddenly, Ukraine is talking about joining NATO, the European
    equivalent of putting Russian missiles in Cuba.
    Even if Biden actually had NOTHING to do with the above, it doesn't
    matter. It's easy to see why Putin has suspicions. Our CIA is an old
    hand at creating regime changes. Can you see now why Putin thinks this
    is a plot from the west?
    Putin maybe paranoid and megalomaniac, but as Tom Clancy once said:
    "Even paranoids have enemies."

    All true, and that was undoubtedly how Putin saw it. The USA underestimated how Putin would react and overestimated its world influence. They thought the armies massed on the border were a bluff until they attacked. Putin has changed the world order as a
    result. Could the West have acted differently? Who knows. Putin was on a cliff edge and it wasn't clear how to talk him down from that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 24 04:20:29 2023
    All true, and that was undoubtedly how Putin saw it. The USA underestimated how Putin would react and overestimated its world influence. They thought the armies massed on the border were a bluff until they attacked. Putin has changed the world order as
    a result. Could the West have acted differently? Who knows. Putin was on a cliff edge and it wasn't clear how to talk him down from that.

    That is how Putin saw it, and he warned the West not to let Ukraine join NATO. Biden refused and even challenged Putin to attack. Putin accepted the challenge: "whatever may come of it". He certainly did not expect a walkover.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 24 10:33:21 2023
    On 2023-01-24 07:04:39 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 00:44:32 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went>
    something like this:>> Xi: What are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged >>>> me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
    Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just paranoid and megalomaniac.
    Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but just wanted to point it out.

    Wasn't a joke.

    And I thought you were trying to be funny with your imagined dialogue
    between Xi and Putin...


    Of course Putin was challenged:

    What nonsense. The only one challenged here is Ukraine.

    Was the US challenged during the Cuban missile crisis?



    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets
    of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within months,
    the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with pro-Western
    leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy happenstance.


    You love conspiracy theories, don't you?

    The LA Times printing conspiracy theories? That's where I got the
    above. See cite.

    The majority of Ukraine was and is against a pro-Russian government -
    look at reality: the majority of Ukrainians are fighting against the
    Russian invasion.

    Have you ever heard of "Holodomor"? Do you really believe the
    Ukrainians long for a russian rule? That would be crazy.


    2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government to sack its
    top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.


    So what? The majority of Ukrainians are still against Russia.

    We're talking about foreign (US) interference in a sovereign state.
    That's what.

    3) Suddenly, Ukraine is talking about joining NATO, the European
    equivalent of putting Russian missiles in Cuba.


    "Suddenly"... It is the right of every sovereign nation to express
    their wishes.

    Remember how "suddenly" Sweden and Finland intended to join the nato
    after Russia invaded Ukraine? Is it wrong of Sweden and Finland to want
    this?

    Of course they don't want Russian rule. I've never said that. You
    said Putin wasn't challenged. I'm showing you that, from Putin's point
    of view, a country aligned with Russia was turned into a country
    unaligned with Russia, and the Vice President at the time and now
    President was involved in it.

    Putin felt backed into a a corner, and did a very stupid thing: he
    invaded. I'm not justifying it, that can't be done. No good will come
    of that decision.


    Even if Biden actually had NOTHING to do with the above, it doesn't
    matter. It's easy to see why Putin has suspicions. Our CIA is an old
    hand at creating regime changes. Can you see now why Putin thinks this
    is a plot from the west?


    So according to you it is the USA's and Ukraine's fault that Russia
    invaded Ukraine. Boy are you brainwashed by russian propaganda...

    It doesn't matter whether the USA interfered or not, it's enough that
    Putin thinks the USA did interfere. It's not like Biden's been
    secretive about it.


    Putin maybe paranoid and megalomaniac, but as Tom Clancy once said:
    "Even paranoids have enemies."


    When I was young I enjoyed playing Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six (computer
    game) with my friends... I don't know much about him, but the quote is
    stupid - especially in this context.

    One should be angry at the Germans for their appeasement over the last
    years wrt to Putin, and how they won't send Leopard-Tanks because they
    are kissing Putin's butt (just as you are doing).

    You really have no idea what is going on in the ukraine, instead you
    sound like a conspiracy theorist.

    I haven't addressed the war, nor who is right or wrong. I'm merely
    showing you that Putin had reasons for doing what he did. I'm assuming
    you have the capability of looking at it from Putin's point of view.
    Granted, a twisted megalomaniac's point of view, but a point of view, nevertheless.

    Heads of State make tremedously bad decisions when war is involved. I'm
    more interested in why they made that mistake -- it's obvious it's a
    bad mistake. You should be wondering why a stable situation in a
    critical part of the world suddenly turned into a war. And it's not as
    simple as Putin == bad; USA/west == good.


    Source:
    https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-05/bidens-visits-to-ukraine-under-scrutiny


    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 24 09:55:08 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 18:52:36 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 16:33:30 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-24 07:04:39 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 00:44:32 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1: >>>> I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the> >>>> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went>
    something like this:>> Xi: What are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged
    me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
    Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just paranoid and megalomaniac. >>> Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but just wanted to point it out. >>
    Wasn't a joke.

    And I thought you were trying to be funny with your imagined dialogue between Xi and Putin...


    Of course Putin was challenged:

    What nonsense. The only one challenged here is Ukraine.
    Was the US challenged during the Cuban missile crisis?
    Stay on topic.

    The topic is Russia's invasion of the Ukraine:

    You are viewing it out of the perspective of a deranged lunatic. Only because Putin is paranoid and megalomaniac he thought to invade the Ukraine in the first place. There is no reason for him to believe that the west will start a war with him or
    anything. It is the right of Ukraine as a sovereign country to not follow Russia's demands.

    It is so obvious who the trouble maker is, yet you are finding excuses for Putin's immature behaviour.

    If the Ukraine asks to be included into the NATO, it's fine as well, just as it is for Finland and Sweden. And if Putin wants to, like any reasonably would like to, he can join the Nato as well. But since he is megalomaniac and paranoid, he won't and
    further abuse human rights.

    And instead of criticising the hell out of Russia and how Europe - except for Poland and some other countries which I can't think of right now, and ofc the USA outside of Europe - you rationalise Putin's invasion of the Ukraine (CIA regime change, and
    what not - as if regime changes would automatically always be something bad).

    *and how Europe - except ... - fails Ukraine, you...



    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets >> of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within months, >> the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with pro-Western
    leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy happenstance.


    You love conspiracy theories, don't you?
    The LA Times printing conspiracy theories? That's where I got the
    above. See cite.
    I didn't read the article, and if the LA Times is anything as the NY Times, then yes... it has a tendency to be quite far from the truth.

    The way you are making things out to be is: That the West removed a pro-Russian government, as if the native population didn't have any say in this. This is conspirational. Very obvious.
    If there was any truth in the way you are making it out to be we would have seen revolutions by the native population against the pro-Western government, right? But no, we are seeing that the large majority of Ukrainian people want a pro-Western
    government and are fighting against Russia.
    The majority of Ukraine was and is against a pro-Russian government - look at reality: the majority of Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian invasion.

    Have you ever heard of "Holodomor"? Do you really believe the
    Ukrainians long for a russian rule? That would be crazy.


    2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government to sack its
    top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.


    So what? The majority of Ukrainians are still against Russia.
    We're talking about foreign (US) interference in a sovereign state.
    That's what.
    The sovereign state wants to join the NATO you god damn idiot who obviously has no idea of what freedom means therefore shits on it.

    Look, I'm not going to read any of your nonsense further. Good luck.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 24 10:02:52 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 18:55:10 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 18:52:36 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 16:33:30 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-24 07:04:39 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 00:44:32 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1: >>>> I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the> >>>> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I> >>>> dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went> >>>> something like this:>> Xi: What are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged
    me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
    Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just paranoid and megalomaniac. >>> Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but just wanted to point it out. >>
    Wasn't a joke.

    And I thought you were trying to be funny with your imagined dialogue between Xi and Putin...


    Of course Putin was challenged:

    What nonsense. The only one challenged here is Ukraine.
    Was the US challenged during the Cuban missile crisis?
    Stay on topic.

    The topic is Russia's invasion of the Ukraine:

    You are viewing it out of the perspective of a deranged lunatic. Only because Putin is paranoid and megalomaniac he thought to invade the Ukraine in the first place. There is no reason for him to believe that the west will start a war with him or
    anything. It is the right of Ukraine as a sovereign country to not follow Russia's demands.

    It is so obvious who the trouble maker is, yet you are finding excuses for Putin's immature behaviour.

    If the Ukraine asks to be included into the NATO, it's fine as well, just as it is for Finland and Sweden. And if Putin wants to, like any reasonably would like to, he can join the Nato as well. But since he is megalomaniac and paranoid, he won't and
    further abuse human rights.

    And instead of criticising the hell out of Russia and how Europe - except for Poland and some other countries which I can't think of right now, and ofc the USA outside of Europe - you rationalise Putin's invasion of the Ukraine (CIA regime change,
    and what not - as if regime changes would automatically always be something bad).
    *and how Europe - except ... - fails Ukraine, you...


    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets >> of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within months, >> the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with pro-Western >> leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy happenstance.


    You love conspiracy theories, don't you?
    The LA Times printing conspiracy theories? That's where I got the
    above. See cite.
    I didn't read the article, and if the LA Times is anything as the NY Times, then yes... it has a tendency to be quite far from the truth.

    The way you are making things out to be is: That the West removed a pro-Russian government, as if the native population didn't have any say in this. This is conspirational. Very obvious.
    If there was any truth in the way you are making it out to be we would have seen revolutions by the native population against the pro-Western government, right? But no, we are seeing that the large majority of Ukrainian people want a pro-Western
    government and are fighting against Russia.
    The majority of Ukraine was and is against a pro-Russian government - look at reality: the majority of Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian invasion.

    Have you ever heard of "Holodomor"? Do you really believe the Ukrainians long for a russian rule? That would be crazy.


    2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government to sack its >> top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.


    So what? The majority of Ukrainians are still against Russia.
    We're talking about foreign (US) interference in a sovereign state. That's what.
    The sovereign state wants to join the NATO you god damn idiot who obviously has no idea of what freedom means therefore shits on it.

    *you obviously have no idea what freedom means and therefore you shit on it.


    Look, I'm not going to read any of your nonsense further. Good luck.

    Instead of understanding the reality that the people of Ukraine embraced a pro-Western government, and need urgent help in their fight for freedom, you make the USA out to be the bad guy, and Putin the guy who couldn't have acted in any other way...
    crazy.

    You know nothing about the realities in Ukraine. Ukrainians know how living conditions deterioated crimea after Russia annexed, just further reason not to again be under the rule of the "Soviets". Putin basically views Ukraine as "little Russia" and
    denies it its right of self-determination.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Tue Jan 24 09:52:33 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 16:33:30 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-24 07:04:39 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 00:44:32 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went>
    something like this:>> Xi: What are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged >>>> me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
    Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just paranoid and megalomaniac.
    Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but just wanted to point it out.

    Wasn't a joke.

    And I thought you were trying to be funny with your imagined dialogue between Xi and Putin...


    Of course Putin was challenged:

    What nonsense. The only one challenged here is Ukraine.
    Was the US challenged during the Cuban missile crisis?

    Stay on topic.

    The topic is Russia's invasion of the Ukraine:

    You are viewing it out of the perspective of a deranged lunatic. Only because Putin is paranoid and megalomaniac he thought to invade the Ukraine in the first place. There is no reason for him to believe that the west will start a war with him or
    anything. It is the right of Ukraine as a sovereign country to not follow Russia's demands.

    It is so obvious who the trouble maker is, yet you are finding excuses for Putin's immature behaviour.

    If the Ukraine asks to be included into the NATO, it's fine as well, just as it is for Finland and Sweden. And if Putin wants to, like any reasonably would like to, he can join the Nato as well. But since he is megalomaniac and paranoid, he won't and
    further abuse human rights.

    And instead of criticising the hell out of Russia and how Europe - except for Poland and some other countries which I can't think of right now, and ofc the USA outside of Europe - you rationalise Putin's invasion of the Ukraine (CIA regime change, and
    what not - as if regime changes would automatically always be something bad).



    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets
    of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within months,
    the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with pro-Western
    leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy happenstance.


    You love conspiracy theories, don't you?
    The LA Times printing conspiracy theories? That's where I got the
    above. See cite.

    I didn't read the article, and if the LA Times is anything as the NY Times, then yes... it has a tendency to be quite far from the truth.

    The way you are making things out to be is: That the West removed a pro-Russian government, as if the native population didn't have any say in this. This is conspirational. Very obvious.
    If there was any truth in the way you are making it out to be we would have seen revolutions by the native population against the pro-Western government, right? But no, we are seeing that the large majority of Ukrainian people want a pro-Western
    government and are fighting against Russia.

    The majority of Ukraine was and is against a pro-Russian government -
    look at reality: the majority of Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian invasion.

    Have you ever heard of "Holodomor"? Do you really believe the
    Ukrainians long for a russian rule? That would be crazy.


    2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government to sack its
    top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.


    So what? The majority of Ukrainians are still against Russia.
    We're talking about foreign (US) interference in a sovereign state.
    That's what.

    The sovereign state wants to join the NATO you god damn idiot who obviously has no idea of what freedom means therefore shits on it.

    Look, I'm not going to read any of your nonsense further. Good luck.


    3) Suddenly, Ukraine is talking about joining NATO, the European
    equivalent of putting Russian missiles in Cuba.


    "Suddenly"... It is the right of every sovereign nation to express
    their wishes.

    Remember how "suddenly" Sweden and Finland intended to join the nato
    after Russia invaded Ukraine? Is it wrong of Sweden and Finland to want this?
    Of course they don't want Russian rule. I've never said that. You
    said Putin wasn't challenged. I'm showing you that, from Putin's point
    of view, a country aligned with Russia was turned into a country
    unaligned with Russia, and the Vice President at the time and now
    President was involved in it.

    Putin felt backed into a a corner, and did a very stupid thing: he
    invaded. I'm not justifying it, that can't be done. No good will come
    of that decision.

    Even if Biden actually had NOTHING to do with the above, it doesn't
    matter. It's easy to see why Putin has suspicions. Our CIA is an old
    hand at creating regime changes. Can you see now why Putin thinks this
    is a plot from the west?


    So according to you it is the USA's and Ukraine's fault that Russia invaded Ukraine. Boy are you brainwashed by russian propaganda...
    It doesn't matter whether the USA interfered or not, it's enough that
    Putin thinks the USA did interfere. It's not like Biden's been
    secretive about it.

    Putin maybe paranoid and megalomaniac, but as Tom Clancy once said:
    "Even paranoids have enemies."


    When I was young I enjoyed playing Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six (computer game) with my friends... I don't know much about him, but the quote is stupid - especially in this context.

    One should be angry at the Germans for their appeasement over the last years wrt to Putin, and how they won't send Leopard-Tanks because they
    are kissing Putin's butt (just as you are doing).

    You really have no idea what is going on in the ukraine, instead you
    sound like a conspiracy theorist.
    I haven't addressed the war, nor who is right or wrong. I'm merely
    showing you that Putin had reasons for doing what he did. I'm assuming
    you have the capability of looking at it from Putin's point of view. Granted, a twisted megalomaniac's point of view, but a point of view, nevertheless.

    Heads of State make tremedously bad decisions when war is involved. I'm
    more interested in why they made that mistake -- it's obvious it's a
    bad mistake. You should be wondering why a stable situation in a
    critical part of the world suddenly turned into a war. And it's not as simple as Putin == bad; USA/west == good.


    Source:
    https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-05/bidens-visits-to-ukraine-under-scrutiny


    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 24 10:07:00 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 19:02:55 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 18:55:10 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 18:52:36 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 16:33:30 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-24 07:04:39 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 00:44:32 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I> >>>> dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face. I think the meeting went> >>>> something like this:>> Xi: What are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged
    me, and a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
    Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just paranoid and megalomaniac.
    Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but just wanted to point it out.

    Wasn't a joke.

    And I thought you were trying to be funny with your imagined dialogue
    between Xi and Putin...


    Of course Putin was challenged:

    What nonsense. The only one challenged here is Ukraine.
    Was the US challenged during the Cuban missile crisis?
    Stay on topic.

    The topic is Russia's invasion of the Ukraine:

    You are viewing it out of the perspective of a deranged lunatic. Only because Putin is paranoid and megalomaniac he thought to invade the Ukraine in the first place. There is no reason for him to believe that the west will start a war with him or
    anything. It is the right of Ukraine as a sovereign country to not follow Russia's demands.

    It is so obvious who the trouble maker is, yet you are finding excuses for Putin's immature behaviour.

    If the Ukraine asks to be included into the NATO, it's fine as well, just as it is for Finland and Sweden. And if Putin wants to, like any reasonably would like to, he can join the Nato as well. But since he is megalomaniac and paranoid, he won't
    and further abuse human rights.

    And instead of criticising the hell out of Russia and how Europe - except for Poland and some other countries which I can't think of right now, and ofc the USA outside of Europe - you rationalise Putin's invasion of the Ukraine (CIA regime change,
    and what not - as if regime changes would automatically always be something bad).
    *and how Europe - except ... - fails Ukraine, you...


    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets
    of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within months,
    the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with pro-Western >> leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy happenstance. >>

    You love conspiracy theories, don't you?
    The LA Times printing conspiracy theories? That's where I got the above. See cite.
    I didn't read the article, and if the LA Times is anything as the NY Times, then yes... it has a tendency to be quite far from the truth.

    The way you are making things out to be is: That the West removed a pro-Russian government, as if the native population didn't have any say in this. This is conspirational. Very obvious.
    If there was any truth in the way you are making it out to be we would have seen revolutions by the native population against the pro-Western government, right? But no, we are seeing that the large majority of Ukrainian people want a pro-Western
    government and are fighting against Russia.
    The majority of Ukraine was and is against a pro-Russian government -
    look at reality: the majority of Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian invasion.

    Have you ever heard of "Holodomor"? Do you really believe the Ukrainians long for a russian rule? That would be crazy.


    2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government to sack its
    top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.


    So what? The majority of Ukrainians are still against Russia.
    We're talking about foreign (US) interference in a sovereign state. That's what.
    The sovereign state wants to join the NATO you god damn idiot who obviously has no idea of what freedom means therefore shits on it.
    *you obviously have no idea what freedom means and therefore you shit on it.

    Look, I'm not going to read any of your nonsense further. Good luck.
    Instead of understanding the reality that the people of Ukraine embraced a pro-Western government, and need urgent help in their fight for freedom, you make the USA out to be the bad guy, and Putin the guy who couldn't have acted in any other way...
    crazy.

    You know nothing about the realities in Ukraine. Ukrainians know how living conditions deterioated crimea after Russia annexed, just further reason not to again be under the rule of the "Soviets". Putin basically views Ukraine as "little Russia" and
    denies it its right of self-determination.

    Just read that Germany, after months of debate, finally delivers Leopard-Tanks to Ukraine. Fuck You Scholz, could have been way earlier.

    https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/spiegel-bericht-deutschland-liefert-leopard-panzer-an-die-ukraine-1.5735757

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 24 10:26:03 2023
    Where India stands in terms of alignment is interesting. It has been a "non-aligned country" when that meant anything. The NAM still exists and meets, but it has very little influence. India abstained from the UN vote on Ukraine in January 2022. It uses
    Russian military equipment but at the same time met with Boris Johnson over trade talks. Often called "on the fence" it hasn't declared for any side. It's wary of Chinese influence in Asia, but geographically it is far from the USA and has to consider
    its borders. How a new prime minister would act is anybody's guess. Modi still has high approval ratings so it may be a while.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Jan 24 10:46:11 2023
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:26:06 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Where India stands in terms of alignment is interesting. It has been a "non-aligned country" when that meant anything. The NAM still exists and meets, but it has very little influence. India abstained from the UN vote on Ukraine in January 2022. It
    uses Russian military equipment but at the same time met with Boris Johnson over trade talks. Often called "on the fence" it hasn't declared for any side. It's wary of Chinese influence in Asia, but geographically it is far from the USA and has to
    consider its borders. How a new prime minister would act is anybody's guess. Modi still has high approval ratings so it may be a while.

    According to this recent article:

    - Slowly but surely, much in the style of Germany under Hitler in the 1930s, the Modi government over two elected terms has nearly the entire Indian media in its pocket. So much so that when the government has ordered taking down of tweets and youtube
    postings on and of the documentary, the irony of the moment is almost lost.

    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the way of
    their Hindu Rashtra project.

    A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    https://countercurrents.org/2023/01/the-unanswered-modi-question-in-bbcs-documentary-that-provokes-us-to-come-out-and-defend-humanity/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Tue Jan 24 10:42:21 2023
    Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 19:35:12 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 7:02:55 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

    You know nothing about the realities in Ukraine.
    Sez the armchair general.

    We all know you have nothing to contribute, no need to be jealous of me.

    Have you thought about addressing the other armchair generals in this thread? No, ofc not, because you are obsessed with me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Tue Jan 24 10:52:36 2023
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 18:46:14 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the way of
    their Hindu Rashtra project. A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    It seems to be a widespread policy today for governments to try to control
    1. The media
    2. The judiciary

    Moves to control the judiciary by Netanyahu and many other leaders and parties like the Republicans have become commonplace, hence the understandable media attention on "democracy in jeopardy".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 24 10:35:09 2023
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 7:02:55 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

    You know nothing about the realities in Ukraine.

    Sez the armchair general.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 24 14:36:46 2023
    On 2023-01-24 17:52:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 16:33:30 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-24 07:04:39 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
    Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 00:44:32 UTC+1:> >> On 2023-01-23 15:53:31
    +0000, Marc S said:> >>> >>> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23.
    Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:> >>>> I think Putin botched any serious
    association with China with the>> >>>> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi,
    you could see the look of "Am I>> >>>> dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's
    face. I think the meeting went>> >>>> something like this:>> Xi: What
    are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged> >>>> me, and a man's gotta do
    what a man's gotta do.> >>> Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just
    paranoid and megalomaniac.> >>> Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but
    just wanted to point it out.> >>> >> Wasn't a joke.> >> > And I thought
    you were trying to be funny with your imagined dialogue> > between Xi
    and Putin...> >> >>> >> Of course Putin was challenged:> >> > What
    nonsense. The only one challenged here is Ukraine.
    Was the US challenged during the Cuban missile crisis?

    Stay on topic.

    The topic is Russia's invasion of the Ukraine:

    No, the topic is:OT A new world order and a bigger cold war coming?

    You are viewing it out of the perspective of a deranged lunatic. Only
    because Putin is paranoid and megalomaniac he thought to invade the
    Ukraine in the first place. There is no reason for him to believe that
    the west will start a war with him or anything. It is the right of
    Ukraine as a sovereign country to not follow Russia's demands.

    I haven't said anything that contradicts this.

    It is so obvious who the trouble maker is, yet you are finding excuses
    for Putin's immature behaviour.

    Simply by calling it "immature," you are finding an "excuse" for his
    behavior. I think my reasons for him doing what he did are more
    accurate than yours. And there is a difference between "excusing"
    someone's behavior and seeing a "reason" for that behavior.

    If the Ukraine asks to be included into the NATO, it's fine as well,
    just as it is for Finland and Sweden. And if Putin wants to, like any reasonably would like to, he can join the Nato as well. But since he is megalomaniac and paranoid, he won't and further abuse human rights.

    And instead of criticising the hell out of Russia and how Europe -
    except for Poland and some other countries which I can't think of right
    now, and ofc the USA outside of Europe - you rationalise Putin's
    invasion of the Ukraine (CIA regime change, and what not - as if regime changes would automatically always be something bad).

    Are you saying the US should continue to be in the regime change
    business? Why wouldn't Putin see this as another attempt at regime
    change? His regime change.



    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets> >>>> >> of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within
    months,> >> the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with
    pro-Western> >> leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy
    happenstance.> >>> >> > You love conspiracy theories, don't you?
    The LA Times printing conspiracy theories? That's where I got the>
    above. See cite.

    I didn't read the article, and if the LA Times is anything as the NY
    Times, then yes... it has a tendency to be quite far from the truth.

    Precisely. Andn even farther away from blaming Biden on anything.
    Which is why I selected it. It can't be dismissed as right wing
    rhetoric, thus we can reasonably believe the facts it describes are
    true.

    The way you are making things out to be is: That the West removed a pro-Russian government, as if the native population didn't have any say
    in this. This is conspirational. Very obvious.

    No. I'm saying that simply the suspicion that this happened would be
    enough to stimulate Putin.

    If there was any truth in the way you are making it out to be we would
    have seen revolutions by the native population against the pro-Western government, right? But no, we are seeing that the large majority of
    Ukrainian people want a pro-Western government and are fighting against Russia.

    Do you think Putin woke up in the middle of the night and said "think
    I'll invade Ukraine?" The only motive you've purported for his doing
    this is that he's "immature." I disagree with your interpretation.


    The majority of Ukraine was and is against a pro-Russian government ->
    look at reality: the majority of Ukrainians are fighting against the>
    Russian invasion.> >> > Have you ever heard of "Holodomor"? Do you
    really believe the> > Ukrainians long for a russian rule? That would be
    crazy.>> >> >> 2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government
    to sack its> >> top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.> >>>
    So what? The majority of Ukrainians are still against Russia.
    We're talking about foreign (US) interference in a sovereign state.>
    That's what.

    The sovereign state wants to join the NATO you god damn idiot who
    obviously has no idea of what freedom means therefore shits on it.

    As a god damn idiot, I think and hope that Ukraine retains their
    soveriegnity and Russia backs down, and that everyone realizes
    EVERYTHING that happened here, so it doesn't have to happen again.


    Look, I'm not going to read any of your nonsense further. Good luck.

    Thank you. That will save me a great deal of time trying to reply.

    -Owen




    3) Suddenly, Ukraine is talking about joining NATO, the European> >>
    equivalent of putting Russian missiles in Cuba.> >>> >> > "Suddenly"... >>>> It is the right of every sovereign nation to express> > their wishes.> >>>> >> > Remember how "suddenly" Sweden and Finland intended to join the
    nato> > after Russia invaded Ukraine? Is it wrong of Sweden and Finland >>>> to want> > this?
    Of course they don't want Russian rule. I've never said that. You> said
    Putin wasn't challenged. I'm showing you that, from Putin's point> of
    view, a country aligned with Russia was turned into a country>
    unaligned with Russia, and the Vice President at the time and now>
    President was involved in it.>> Putin felt backed into a a corner, and
    did a very stupid thing: he> invaded. I'm not justifying it, that can't
    be done. No good will come> of that decision.

    Even if Biden actually had NOTHING to do with the above, it doesn't> >> >>>> matter. It's easy to see why Putin has suspicions. Our CIA is an old>
    hand at creating regime changes. Can you see now why Putin thinks
    this> >> is a plot from the west?> >>> >> > So according to you it is
    the USA's and Ukraine's fault that Russia> > invaded Ukraine. Boy are
    you brainwashed by russian propaganda...
    It doesn't matter whether the USA interfered or not, it's enough that>
    Putin thinks the USA did interfere. It's not like Biden's been>
    secretive about it.

    Putin maybe paranoid and megalomaniac, but as Tom Clancy once said:> >> >>>> "Even paranoids have enemies."> >>> >> > When I was young I enjoyed
    playing Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six (computer> > game) with my friends... >>>> I don't know much about him, but the quote is> > stupid - especially in >>>> this context.> >> > One should be angry at the Germans for their
    appeasement over the last> > years wrt to Putin, and how they won't
    send Leopard-Tanks because they> > are kissing Putin's butt (just as
    you are doing).> >> > You really have no idea what is going on in the
    ukraine, instead you> > sound like a conspiracy theorist.
    I haven't addressed the war, nor who is right or wrong. I'm merely>
    showing you that Putin had reasons for doing what he did. I'm assuming>
    you have the capability of looking at it from Putin's point of view.>
    Granted, a twisted megalomaniac's point of view, but a point of view,>
    nevertheless.>> Heads of State make tremedously bad decisions when war
    is involved. I'm> more interested in why they made that mistake -- it's
    obvious it's a> bad mistake. You should be wondering why a stable
    situation in a> critical part of the world suddenly turned into a war.
    And it's not as> simple as Putin == bad; USA/west == good.>> >> >>
    Source:> >>
    https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-05/bidens-visits-to-ukraine-under-scrutiny>
    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Jan 24 15:33:30 2023
    On 1/24/2023 1:52 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 18:46:14 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the way
    of their Hindu Rashtra project. A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    It seems to be a widespread policy today for governments to try to control
    1. The media
    2. The judiciary

    Moves to control the judiciary by Netanyahu and many other leaders and parties like the Republicans have become commonplace, hence the understandable media attention on "democracy in jeopardy".

    Would you characterize the Democrats wanting to add 3 or more seats to SCOTUS as controlling the judiciary? I would.

    The Israeli government's proposed judicial reform will actually strengthen the separation of powers to be more like it is in other democracies. The Supreme Court in Israel has way too much power. For example, it selects new justices itself and has
    virtual veto power over legislation. All the reform proposal does is establish a reasonable balance. Of course since the Court leans way left and would have less power under reform, the Left has gone bonkers, calling the reforms a THREAT TO DEMOCRACY
    and Netanyahu a fascist.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Jan 24 15:03:36 2023
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 12:33:39 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 1:52 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 18:46:14 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the way
    of their Hindu Rashtra project. A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    It seems to be a widespread policy today for governments to try to control 1. The media
    2. The judiciary

    Moves to control the judiciary by Netanyahu and
    many other leaders and parties like the Republicans
    have become commonplace, hence the understandable
    media attention on "democracy in jeopardy".

    Would you characterize the Democrats wanting to
    add 3 or more seats to SCOTUS as controlling the
    judiciary? I would.

    The Israeli government's proposed judicial reform
    will actually strengthen the separation of powers
    to be more like it is in other democracies.

    Examples?

    The Supreme Court in Israel has way too much power.

    In what way?

    For example, it selects new justices itself and has
    virtual veto power over legislation.

    Would you rather have political bodies select new
    justices? That would be one of the stupidest ideas
    ever. How can a supreme court ever be possibly
    free from political influence and pressure if the
    judges are picked by the Prez and by Congress?

    Would you rather have SCOTUS justices picked
    by Mme. Thomas and by the Federalist Society?
    I ask the question ......

    All the reform proposal does is establish a
    reasonable balance.

    Reasonableness is in the eyes and minbds
    of the beholders. What is reasonable to one
    person (e.g. rabbis have authority to dictate
    what people eat, whom they can marry, and
    how they spend weekends) maybe entirely
    unreasonable to others.

    Of course since the Court leans way left

    Examples?

    and would have less power under reform,
    the Left has gone bonkers, calling the
    reforms a THREAT TO DEMOCRACY
    and Netanyahu a fascist.

    The reforms are indeed as threat to
    democracy as understood by many
    in Israel. Whether Bibi is a fascist or
    not is entirely irrelevant to the matter.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Jan 24 18:55:41 2023
    On 1/24/2023 6:03 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 12:33:39 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 1:52 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 18:46:14 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the way
    of their Hindu Rashtra project. A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    It seems to be a widespread policy today for governments to try to control >>> 1. The media
    2. The judiciary

    Moves to control the judiciary by Netanyahu and
    many other leaders and parties like the Republicans
    have become commonplace, hence the understandable
    media attention on "democracy in jeopardy".

    Would you characterize the Democrats wanting to
    add 3 or more seats to SCOTUS as controlling the
    judiciary? I would.

    The Israeli government's proposed judicial reform
    will actually strengthen the separation of powers
    to be more like it is in other democracies.

    Examples?

    The Supreme Court in Israel has way too much power.

    In what way?

    For example, it selects new justices itself and has
    virtual veto power over legislation.

    Would you rather have political bodies select new
    justices? That would be one of the stupidest ideas
    ever. How can a supreme court ever be possibly
    free from political influence and pressure if the
    judges are picked by the Prez and by Congress?

    Would you rather have SCOTUS justices picked
    by Mme. Thomas and by the Federalist Society?
    I ask the question ......

    All the reform proposal does is establish a
    reasonable balance.

    Reasonableness is in the eyes and minbds
    of the beholders. What is reasonable to one
    person (e.g. rabbis have authority to dictate
    what people eat, whom they can marry, and
    how they spend weekends) maybe entirely
    unreasonable to others.

    Of course since the Court leans way left

    Examples?

    and would have less power under reform,
    the Left has gone bonkers, calling the
    reforms a THREAT TO DEMOCRACY
    and Netanyahu a fascist.

    The reforms are indeed as threat to
    democracy as understood by many
    in Israel. Whether Bibi is a fascist or
    not is entirely irrelevant to the matter.

    dk


    You asked questions that I answered in the post. If you want to know more look it up. And not at Haaretz or the NYT.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Jan 24 16:01:51 2023
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:55:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 6:03 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 12:33:39 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 1:52 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 18:46:14 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the
    way of their Hindu Rashtra project. A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    It seems to be a widespread policy today for governments to try to control
    1. The media
    2. The judiciary

    Moves to control the judiciary by Netanyahu and
    many other leaders and parties like the Republicans
    have become commonplace, hence the understandable
    media attention on "democracy in jeopardy".

    Would you characterize the Democrats wanting to
    add 3 or more seats to SCOTUS as controlling the
    judiciary? I would.

    The Israeli government's proposed judicial reform
    will actually strengthen the separation of powers
    to be more like it is in other democracies.

    Examples?

    The Supreme Court in Israel has way too much power.

    In what way?

    For example, it selects new justices itself and has
    virtual veto power over legislation.

    Would you rather have political bodies select new
    justices? That would be one of the stupidest ideas
    ever. How can a supreme court ever be possibly
    free from political influence and pressure if the
    judges are picked by the Prez and by Congress?

    Would you rather have SCOTUS justices picked
    by Mme. Thomas and by the Federalist Society?
    I ask the question ......

    All the reform proposal does is establish a
    reasonable balance.

    Reasonableness is in the eyes and minbds
    of the beholders. What is reasonable to one
    person (e.g. rabbis have authority to dictate
    what people eat, whom they can marry, and
    how they spend weekends) maybe entirely
    unreasonable to others.

    Of course since the Court leans way left

    Examples?

    and would have less power under reform,
    the Left has gone bonkers, calling the
    reforms a THREAT TO DEMOCRACY
    and Netanyahu a fascist.

    The reforms are indeed as threat to
    democracy as understood by many
    in Israel. Whether Bibi is a fascist or
    not is entirely irrelevant to the matter.

    You asked questions that I answered in
    the post. If you want to know more look
    it up. And not at Haaretz or the NYT.

    I don't read either Ha'aretz or NYT often.

    And I do not buy, borrow, lease or steal
    my opinions from anywhere or anyone
    else. Why would one ever do this?

    I read all kind of sources across the
    opinion spectrum, from right to left,
    East to West, North to South, etc ....

    As usual, no single source has all
    the facts, presents all the facts, or
    is right (or wrong) in every single
    respect, and that includes judges
    and rabbis.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Jan 24 19:34:30 2023
    On 1/24/2023 7:01 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:55:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 6:03 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 12:33:39 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 1:52 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 18:46:14 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the
    way of their Hindu Rashtra project. A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    It seems to be a widespread policy today for governments to try to control
    1. The media
    2. The judiciary

    Moves to control the judiciary by Netanyahu and
    many other leaders and parties like the Republicans
    have become commonplace, hence the understandable
    media attention on "democracy in jeopardy".

    Would you characterize the Democrats wanting to
    add 3 or more seats to SCOTUS as controlling the
    judiciary? I would.

    The Israeli government's proposed judicial reform
    will actually strengthen the separation of powers
    to be more like it is in other democracies.

    Examples?

    The Supreme Court in Israel has way too much power.

    In what way?

    For example, it selects new justices itself and has
    virtual veto power over legislation.

    Would you rather have political bodies select new
    justices? That would be one of the stupidest ideas
    ever. How can a supreme court ever be possibly
    free from political influence and pressure if the
    judges are picked by the Prez and by Congress?

    Would you rather have SCOTUS justices picked
    by Mme. Thomas and by the Federalist Society?
    I ask the question ......

    All the reform proposal does is establish a
    reasonable balance.

    Reasonableness is in the eyes and minbds
    of the beholders. What is reasonable to one
    person (e.g. rabbis have authority to dictate
    what people eat, whom they can marry, and
    how they spend weekends) maybe entirely
    unreasonable to others.

    Of course since the Court leans way left

    Examples?

    and would have less power under reform,
    the Left has gone bonkers, calling the
    reforms a THREAT TO DEMOCRACY
    and Netanyahu a fascist.

    The reforms are indeed as threat to
    democracy as understood by many
    in Israel. Whether Bibi is a fascist or
    not is entirely irrelevant to the matter.

    You asked questions that I answered in
    the post. If you want to know more look
    it up. And not at Haaretz or the NYT.

    I don't read either Ha'aretz or NYT often.

    And I do not buy, borrow, lease or steal
    my opinions from anywhere or anyone
    else. Why would one ever do this?

    I read all kind of sources across the
    opinion spectrum, from right to left,
    East to West, North to South, etc ....

    As usual, no single source has all
    the facts, presents all the facts, or
    is right (or wrong) in every single
    respect, and that includes judges
    and rabbis.

    dk


    You are arguing for arguing's sake which I am not interested in doing. I said nothing to suggest you should get information from a single source. My suggestion re news sources was meant to suggest you collect information (not necessarily opinions) from
    sources with different kinds of bias.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Jan 24 18:35:55 2023
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:34:38 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 7:01 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:55:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    You asked questions that I answered in
    the post. If you want to know more look
    it up. And not at Haaretz or the NYT.

    I don't read either Ha'aretz or NYT often.

    And I do not buy, borrow, lease or steal
    my opinions from anywhere or anyone
    else. Why would one ever do this?

    I read all kind of sources across the
    opinion spectrum, from right to left,
    East to West, North to South, etc ....

    As usual, no single source has all
    the facts, presents all the facts, or
    is right (or wrong) in every single
    respect, and that includes judges
    and rabbis.

    You are arguing for arguing's sake which I
    am not interested in doing. I said nothing
    to suggest you should get information from
    a single source. My suggestion re news
    sources was meant to suggest you collect
    information (not necessarily opinions) from
    sources with different kinds of bias.

    While that may have been your honest intent,
    it is not what you said. Quoting literally, "not
    Haaretz or NYT". It does not sound to me as
    a balanced, neutral "sources with different
    kinds of bias".

    Otherwise, one should point out that the JP
    has been sliding rightwards over the past 50
    years I've been reading it, and the trend seems
    to be accelerating. This also holds for other
    Israeli press, e.g. Yediot Aharonot or Ha'aretz,
    though less noticeably. It seems to reflect the
    rightwards trend in the ganaral population.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Jan 24 22:44:00 2023
    On 1/24/2023 9:35 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:34:38 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 7:01 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:55:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    You asked questions that I answered in
    the post. If you want to know more look
    it up. And not at Haaretz or the NYT.

    I don't read either Ha'aretz or NYT often.

    And I do not buy, borrow, lease or steal
    my opinions from anywhere or anyone
    else. Why would one ever do this?

    I read all kind of sources across the
    opinion spectrum, from right to left,
    East to West, North to South, etc ....

    As usual, no single source has all
    the facts, presents all the facts, or
    is right (or wrong) in every single
    respect, and that includes judges
    and rabbis.

    You are arguing for arguing's sake which I
    am not interested in doing. I said nothing
    to suggest you should get information from
    a single source. My suggestion re news
    sources was meant to suggest you collect
    information (not necessarily opinions) from
    sources with different kinds of bias.

    While that may have been your honest intent,
    it is not what you said. Quoting literally, "not
    Haaretz or NYT". It does not sound to me as
    a balanced, neutral "sources with different
    kinds of bias".


    I meant to say "not only."

    Otherwise, one should point out that the JP
    has been sliding rightwards over the past 50
    years I've been reading it, and the trend seems
    to be accelerating. This also holds for other
    Israeli press, e.g. Yediot Aharonot or Ha'aretz,
    though less noticeably. It seems to reflect the
    rightwards trend in the ganaral population.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Tue Jan 24 22:58:05 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 03:35:58 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 4:34:38 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 1/24/2023 7:01 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:55:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    You asked questions that I answered in
    the post. If you want to know more look
    it up. And not at Haaretz or the NYT.

    I don't read either Ha'aretz or NYT often.

    And I do not buy, borrow, lease or steal
    my opinions from anywhere or anyone
    else. Why would one ever do this?

    I read all kind of sources across the
    opinion spectrum, from right to left,
    East to West, North to South, etc ....

    As usual, no single source has all
    the facts, presents all the facts, or
    is right (or wrong) in every single
    respect, and that includes judges
    and rabbis.

    You are arguing for arguing's sake which I
    am not interested in doing. I said nothing
    to suggest you should get information from
    a single source. My suggestion re news
    sources was meant to suggest you collect
    information (not necessarily opinions) from
    sources with different kinds of bias.
    While that may have been your honest intent,
    it is not what you said. Quoting literally, "not
    Haaretz or NYT". It does not sound to me as
    a balanced, neutral "sources with different
    kinds of bias".

    Otherwise, one should point out that the JP
    has been sliding rightwards over the past 50
    years I've been reading it, and the trend seems
    to be accelerating. This also holds for other
    Israeli press, e.g. Yediot Aharonot or Ha'aretz,
    though less noticeably. It seems to reflect the
    rightwards trend in the ganaral population.

    You are funny. Haaretz is far-left and nothing, really nothing, suggests a rightwards trend within Haaretz. But we all you know are paranoid. Do you know who Gideon Levy is? You remind me of him.

    Yediot Aharonot is "more middle ground" as far as I know, but still left-leaning.

    You seem to have no idea of what "right" or "left" even means; you also seem to be preoccupied with the "far-right", never did I hear anything from you about the "far-left" in Israel or the USA or anywhere else.

    What a joke you are... Your remarks, just as well as all the antisemitic remarks in the recent thread about Wisse's essay, give quite a good idea, about why Israel is trending rightwards (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing as you believe) and why
    Netanyahu is actually needed.

    Have fun hating yourself and Israel.


    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Tue Jan 24 23:48:22 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 20:36:54 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-24 17:52:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 16:33:30 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-24 07:04:39 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am >> Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 00:44:32 UTC+1:> >> On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 >> +0000, Marc S said:> >>> >>> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23.
    Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:> >>>> I think Putin botched any serious
    association with China with the>> >>>> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi,
    you could see the look of "Am I>> >>>> dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's >> face. I think the meeting went>> >>>> something like this:>> Xi: What
    are you, crazy?> Putin: They challenged> >>>> me, and a man's gotta do
    what a man's gotta do.> >>> Ofc noone challenged Putin. Putin is just
    paranoid and megalomaniac.> >>> Didn't want to "destroy" your joke, but >> just wanted to point it out.> >>> >> Wasn't a joke.> >> > And I thought >> you were trying to be funny with your imagined dialogue> > between Xi
    and Putin...> >> >>> >> Of course Putin was challenged:> >> > What
    nonsense. The only one challenged here is Ukraine.
    Was the US challenged during the Cuban missile crisis?

    Stay on topic.

    The topic is Russia's invasion of the Ukraine:
    No, the topic is:OT A new world order and a bigger cold war coming?

    You are viewing it out of the perspective of a deranged lunatic. Only because Putin is paranoid and megalomaniac he thought to invade the Ukraine in the first place. There is no reason for him to believe that
    the west will start a war with him or anything. It is the right of
    Ukraine as a sovereign country to not follow Russia's demands.
    I haven't said anything that contradicts this.

    It is so obvious who the trouble maker is, yet you are finding excuses
    for Putin's immature behaviour.
    Simply by calling it "immature," you are finding an "excuse" for his behavior. I think my reasons for him doing what he did are more
    accurate than yours. And there is a difference between "excusing"
    someone's behavior and seeing a "reason" for that behavior.

    You know, when I wrote "immature" yesterday, I thought that this wasn't really approriate, because it is sort of an euphemism wrt to Putin's behaviour. I shouldn't have used this word, I should have sticked to "paranoid".

    As every reasonable person would be able to tell, I am not "excusing" anything, I am "criticisng" him for being "immature"; while you are coming up with explanations that _seemingly_ make Putin's actions plausible - completely deranged on your part.


    If the Ukraine asks to be included into the NATO, it's fine as well,
    just as it is for Finland and Sweden. And if Putin wants to, like any reasonably would like to, he can join the Nato as well. But since he is megalomaniac and paranoid, he won't and further abuse human rights.

    And instead of criticising the hell out of Russia and how Europe -
    except for Poland and some other countries which I can't think of right now, and ofc the USA outside of Europe - you rationalise Putin's
    invasion of the Ukraine (CIA regime change, and what not - as if regime changes would automatically always be something bad).
    Are you saying the US should continue to be in the regime change
    business? Why wouldn't Putin see this as another attempt at regime
    change? His regime change.

    You idiot, putin is trying a regiem change in russia

    What I'm saying is, and this isn't really hard to understand:

    The people of Ukraine want to be free from Russia, they want a pro-western government and they want to be included in the NATO - all for obvious reasons (human rights, higher living standards, military alliances etc). Ofc the west is not perfect in
    advancing human rights and often failed miserably, but compare the west to Russia or China etc.

    "If" the USA helped the Ukrainian' achieve a regime change that the people endorsed, I don't see any problem with it, as opposed to a US-hating idiot like you. It should also be noted that Ukraine was not a "regime" under the pro-western government. As I
    have made clear multiple times already, the Ukrainains are fighting against Russia and are in support of a pro-western Government. So it's actually russia that is attempting a regime change that is contrary to the principles of the people. If the west
    wants to stand by its principles and values, we have to help Ukraine fight for freedom.

    Imagine you were living in the Ukraine and get invaded by Russians, wouldn't you want the west to help you? Do you want to live under Russian rule?

    It's all so obvious. I'm not going to read any further - you are completely deranged.





    1) In 2014, Biden watched anti-government protesters fill the streets> >>>> >> of Kyiv in what became known as the Maidan revolution. Within
    months,> >> the pro-Russian government was ousted and replaced with >>>> pro-Western> >> leaders. Coincidence? Maybe, but also could be happy >>>> happenstance.> >>> >> > You love conspiracy theories, don't you?
    The LA Times printing conspiracy theories? That's where I got the>
    above. See cite.

    I didn't read the article, and if the LA Times is anything as the NY Times, then yes... it has a tendency to be quite far from the truth.
    Precisely. Andn even farther away from blaming Biden on anything.
    Which is why I selected it. It can't be dismissed as right wing
    rhetoric, thus we can reasonably believe the facts it describes are
    true.

    The way you are making things out to be is: That the West removed a pro-Russian government, as if the native population didn't have any say
    in this. This is conspirational. Very obvious.
    No. I'm saying that simply the suspicion that this happened would be
    enough to stimulate Putin.
    If there was any truth in the way you are making it out to be we would have seen revolutions by the native population against the pro-Western government, right? But no, we are seeing that the large majority of Ukrainian people want a pro-Western government and are fighting against Russia.
    Do you think Putin woke up in the middle of the night and said "think
    I'll invade Ukraine?" The only motive you've purported for his doing
    this is that he's "immature." I disagree with your interpretation.

    The majority of Ukraine was and is against a pro-Russian government -> >>> > look at reality: the majority of Ukrainians are fighting against the> >>> > Russian invasion.> >> > Have you ever heard of "Holodomor"? Do you
    really believe the> > Ukrainians long for a russian rule? That would be >>> crazy.>> >> >> 2) Biden pressed newly installed Poroshenko's government >>> to sack its> >> top prosecutor, Shokin. Biden bragged about this.> >>> >>> >> > So what? The majority of Ukrainians are still against Russia.
    We're talking about foreign (US) interference in a sovereign state.>
    That's what.

    The sovereign state wants to join the NATO you god damn idiot who obviously has no idea of what freedom means therefore shits on it.
    As a god damn idiot, I think and hope that Ukraine retains their soveriegnity and Russia backs down, and that everyone realizes
    EVERYTHING that happened here, so it doesn't have to happen again.

    Look, I'm not going to read any of your nonsense further. Good luck.
    Thank you. That will save me a great deal of time trying to reply.

    -Owen


    3) Suddenly, Ukraine is talking about joining NATO, the European> >> >>>> equivalent of putting Russian missiles in Cuba.> >>> >> > "Suddenly"... >>>> It is the right of every sovereign nation to express> > their wishes.> >>>> >> > Remember how "suddenly" Sweden and Finland intended to join the >>>> nato> > after Russia invaded Ukraine? Is it wrong of Sweden and Finland >>>> to want> > this?
    Of course they don't want Russian rule. I've never said that. You> said >> Putin wasn't challenged. I'm showing you that, from Putin's point> of
    view, a country aligned with Russia was turned into a country>
    unaligned with Russia, and the Vice President at the time and now>
    President was involved in it.>> Putin felt backed into a a corner, and
    did a very stupid thing: he> invaded. I'm not justifying it, that can't >> be done. No good will come> of that decision.

    Even if Biden actually had NOTHING to do with the above, it doesn't> >> >>>> matter. It's easy to see why Putin has suspicions. Our CIA is an old> >>>> >> hand at creating regime changes. Can you see now why Putin thinks >>>> this> >> is a plot from the west?> >>> >> > So according to you it is >>>> the USA's and Ukraine's fault that Russia> > invaded Ukraine. Boy are >>>> you brainwashed by russian propaganda...
    It doesn't matter whether the USA interfered or not, it's enough that>
    Putin thinks the USA did interfere. It's not like Biden's been>
    secretive about it.

    Putin maybe paranoid and megalomaniac, but as Tom Clancy once said:> >> >>>> "Even paranoids have enemies."> >>> >> > When I was young I enjoyed >>>> playing Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six (computer> > game) with my friends... >>>> I don't know much about him, but the quote is> > stupid - especially in >>>> this context.> >> > One should be angry at the Germans for their
    appeasement over the last> > years wrt to Putin, and how they won't >>>> send Leopard-Tanks because they> > are kissing Putin's butt (just as >>>> you are doing).> >> > You really have no idea what is going on in the >>>> ukraine, instead you> > sound like a conspiracy theorist.
    I haven't addressed the war, nor who is right or wrong. I'm merely>
    showing you that Putin had reasons for doing what he did. I'm assuming> >> you have the capability of looking at it from Putin's point of view.>
    Granted, a twisted megalomaniac's point of view, but a point of view,>
    nevertheless.>> Heads of State make tremedously bad decisions when war
    is involved. I'm> more interested in why they made that mistake -- it's >> obvious it's a> bad mistake. You should be wondering why a stable
    situation in a> critical part of the world suddenly turned into a war.
    And it's not as> simple as Putin == bad; USA/west == good.>> >> >>
    Source:> >>
    https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-05/bidens-visits-to-ukraine-under-scrutiny>
    -Owen

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 24 23:26:36 2023
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:58:07 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    You are funny. Haaretz is far-left and nothing, really
    nothing, suggests a rightwards trend within Haaretz.

    You haven't been reading it for 50+ years, have you?

    But you clearly like to pontificate about stuff you
    know nothing about.

    But we all you know are paranoid.

    Still better than schizo.

    Do you know who Gideon Levy is? You remind me of him.

    You remind me of sauerkraut.

    Yediot Aharonot is "more middle ground" as far as I know,
    but still left-leaning.

    50 years ago it was considered center-right, even more so
    than the JP. Do you read/speak/understand Hebrew? Do
    you watch Israeli TV? Where do you buy your gas?

    You seem to have no idea of what "right" or "left" even
    means; you also seem to be preoccupied with the "far-right",
    never did I hear anything from you about the "far-left" in
    Israel or the USA or anywhere else.

    "Left" and "right" mean different things in different countries.

    Do you understand the concept of "nuance"? What the US
    calls "left" would barely be considered "center" in many
    European countries. What the US calls "right" would be
    considered lunatic extreme right in many Europen countries.
    Israel tends to the opposite, all the standard political labels
    tend to be "leftier" than elsewhere.

    What a joke you are... Your remarks, just as well as all the
    antisemitic remarks in the recent thread about Wisse's essay,

    Can you point out a single antisemitic remark I ever made?
    Disagreeing with a bigoted retarded Canadian shtetl girl
    does not equate to anti-semitism.

    give quite a good idea, about why Israel is trending
    rightwards (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing as

    Did I ever say it was "bad"? Can you point to chapter
    and verse?

    you believe) and why Netanyahu is actually needed.

    That is highly debatable, considering that more than
    half of Israel's citizens did not vote for him. Ofc you
    know better than anyone else, Biden, Trump, Putin,
    Xi, the Pope and Netanyahu included.

    If you believe so strongly Netanyahu is "needed",
    why don't you move to Israel so you can vote for
    him, or whomever else you believe is "needed"?

    Incidentally, the mindset you promote sounds
    very much like Nazi Germany: Netanyahu (a
    strong, dictatorial "leader") is "needed", just
    as Adolf, Benito, Xi, Mao and Vladimir were
    "needed". Different names, same concept.

    I don't like to publish information gleaned
    from private communications, however
    since you already leaked a fragment of
    our private conversation, I will make an
    exception and mention you stated Ben
    Gurion was an idiot. You clearly need
    more Haloperidol than all the world's
    supply.

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Jan 25 00:03:23 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 08:26:39 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:58:07 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    You are funny. Haaretz is far-left and nothing, really
    nothing, suggests a rightwards trend within Haaretz.
    You haven't been reading it for 50+ years, have you?

    But you clearly like to pontificate about stuff you
    know nothing about.
    But we all you know are paranoid.
    Still better than schizo.
    Do you know who Gideon Levy is? You remind me of him.
    You remind me of sauerkraut.
    Yediot Aharonot is "more middle ground" as far as I know,
    but still left-leaning.
    50 years ago it was considered center-right, even more so
    than the JP. Do you read/speak/understand Hebrew? Do
    you watch Israeli TV? Where do you buy your gas?
    You seem to have no idea of what "right" or "left" even
    means; you also seem to be preoccupied with the "far-right",
    never did I hear anything from you about the "far-left" in
    Israel or the USA or anywhere else.
    "Left" and "right" mean different things in different countries.

    Do you understand the concept of "nuance"? What the US
    calls "left" would barely be considered "center" in many
    European countries. What the US calls "right" would be
    considered lunatic extreme right in many Europen countries.
    Israel tends to the opposite, all the standard political labels
    tend to be "leftier" than elsewhere.
    What a joke you are... Your remarks, just as well as all the
    antisemitic remarks in the recent thread about Wisse's essay,
    Can you point out a single antisemitic remark I ever made?
    Disagreeing with a bigoted retarded Canadian shtetl girl
    does not equate to anti-semitism.
    give quite a good idea, about why Israel is trending
    rightwards (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing as
    Did I ever say it was "bad"? Can you point to chapter
    and verse?
    you believe) and why Netanyahu is actually needed.
    That is highly debatable, considering that more than
    half of Israel's citizens did not vote for him. Ofc you
    know better than anyone else, Biden, Trump, Putin,
    Xi, the Pope and Netanyahu included.

    If you believe so strongly Netanyahu is "needed",
    why don't you move to Israel so you can vote for
    him, or whomever else you believe is "needed"?

    Incidentally, the mindset you promote sounds
    very much like Nazi Germany: Netanyahu (a
    strong, dictatorial "leader") is "needed", just
    as Adolf, Benito, Xi, Mao and Vladimir were
    "needed". Different names, same concept.

    I don't like to publish information gleaned
    from private communications, however
    since you already leaked a fragment of
    our private conversation, I will make an
    exception and mention you stated Ben
    Gurion was an idiot. You clearly need
    more Haloperidol than all the world's
    supply.

    dk

    FWIW: I didn't accuse you of being an antisemite, I think I said that you sounded like an antisemite, which you really do wrt Netanyahu and the "rightwing" Israeli government, and Rabbis and what not.

    Note I said "your remarks" and then started talking about "antisemitic remarks" from other people. If you have any doubts about the remarks of Andy and Henk being antisemitic, go to some Jewish Organization that actually deals with defining antisemitism
    and ask them.

    What's remarkable is that instead of talking tacheles/doing some straight talking with Andy and Henk, all you have on your mind is Marc S, Netanyahu, and Frank Berger and Rabbis. You are a god damn disgrace.

    If you actually wanted to do good for Israel and the Jewish people, you would be fighting antisemitism, and not the people defending Israel from it.

    Now go argue with your cats. I have don't always have time for your nonsense.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Wed Jan 25 00:08:30 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 00:12:27 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 00:39:36 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:08:33 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.

    "Putin made a comment to Merkel", then "Merkel rolled her eyes"; wow... you make it seem as if Merkel "challenged" Putin... in reality all Merkel did was to make Germany dependant on Russian gas (neglecting Trump's criticism on this matter).

    Merkel is one of the biggest opportunists, she always did what granted her the most short-term success. She never took any risks, always changed her mind about stuff she planned to do, when public opinion shifted etc.

    Merkel also influenced US-politics quite a bit I think, wanting the US to conform to Germany's demands; similar to how Germany wants Poland et al to conform to Germany's demands.

    It's ironic that the nation responsible for the Holocaust and two world wars now wants to dictate others what to do. Psychologically speaking it seems as if the Germans want to redeem themselves from their past by now portraying thsemelves to be the most
    virtuous - climate, immigration, far-left-politics etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 00:40:04 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg

    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 00:49:10 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the> >> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?

    https://giphy.com/gifs/annoyed-eye-roll-judge-judy-Rhhr8D5mKSX7O

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 00:50:09 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the> >> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?

    https://giphy.com/gifs/star-trek-vulcan-mr-spock-4APAe5Vw4xHGM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 00:52:51 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:50:11 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the> >> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I> >> dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?
    https://giphy.com/gifs/star-trek-vulcan-mr-spock-4APAe5Vw4xHGM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 01:09:08 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the> >> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?

    If we ever meet, you are gonna get one of these where the sun don't shine:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=vulcan+nerve+pinch&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiosM3-ruL8AhXiOEQIHYf1BlcQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=vulcan+nerve+pinch&gs_lcp=
    CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQQzIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAUQHjIHCAAQgAQQGDIHCAAQgAQQGDoECAAQHlDZDFi7FmCSGmgAcAB4AIABSIgBqQKSAQE1mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=5vDQY6ilB-LxkPIPh-ubuAU&bih=657&biw=1366#imgrc=Ll1xe-0LqW8aQM

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 01:13:50 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 10:09:11 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I> >> dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?
    If we ever meet, you are gonna get one of these where the sun don't shine:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=vulcan+nerve+pinch&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiosM3-ruL8AhXiOEQIHYf1BlcQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=vulcan+nerve+pinch&gs_lcp=
    CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQQzIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAUQHjIHCAAQgAQQGDIHCAAQgAQQGDoECAAQHlDZDFi7FmCSGmgAcAB4AIABSIgBqQKSAQE1mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=5vDQY6ilB-LxkPIPh-ubuAU&bih=657&biw=1366#imgrc=Ll1xe-0LqW8aQM

    https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a51bba34-43d1-44b4-9df7-ff50fc293366

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 01:21:27 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 1:13:53 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 10:09:11 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?
    If we ever meet, you are gonna get one of these where the sun don't shine:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=vulcan+nerve+pinch&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiosM3-ruL8AhXiOEQIHYf1BlcQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=vulcan+nerve+pinch&gs_lcp=
    CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQQzIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAUQHjIHCAAQgAQQGDIHCAAQgAQQGDoECAAQHlDZDFi7FmCSGmgAcAB4AIABSIgBqQKSAQE1mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=5vDQY6ilB-LxkPIPh-ubuAU&bih=657&biw=1366#imgrc=Ll1xe-0LqW8aQM
    https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a51bba34-43d1-44b4-9df7-ff50fc293366

    https://giphy.com/gifs/work-guy-mother-oKdjMdWXl9ys8

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 01:16:18 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:52:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:50:11 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I> >> dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?
    https://giphy.com/gifs/star-trek-vulcan-mr-spock-4APAe5Vw4xHGM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

    - All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

    Douglas Adams ("The Salmon of Doubt")

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 01:36:08 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:03:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 08:26:39 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:58:07 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    You are funny. Haaretz is far-left and nothing, really
    nothing, suggests a rightwards trend within Haaretz.
    You haven't been reading it for 50+ years, have you?

    But you clearly like to pontificate about stuff you
    know nothing about.
    But we all you know are paranoid.
    Still better than schizo.
    Do you know who Gideon Levy is? You remind me of him.
    You remind me of sauerkraut.
    Yediot Aharonot is "more middle ground" as far as I know,
    but still left-leaning.
    50 years ago it was considered center-right, even more so
    than the JP. Do you read/speak/understand Hebrew? Do
    you watch Israeli TV? Where do you buy your gas?
    You seem to have no idea of what "right" or "left" even
    means; you also seem to be preoccupied with the "far-right",
    never did I hear anything from you about the "far-left" in
    Israel or the USA or anywhere else.
    "Left" and "right" mean different things in different countries.

    Do you understand the concept of "nuance"? What the US
    calls "left" would barely be considered "center" in many
    European countries. What the US calls "right" would be
    considered lunatic extreme right in many Europen countries.
    Israel tends to the opposite, all the standard political labels
    tend to be "leftier" than elsewhere.
    What a joke you are... Your remarks, just as well as all the
    antisemitic remarks in the recent thread about Wisse's essay,
    Can you point out a single antisemitic remark I ever made?
    Disagreeing with a bigoted retarded Canadian shtetl girl
    does not equate to anti-semitism.
    give quite a good idea, about why Israel is trending
    rightwards (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing as
    Did I ever say it was "bad"? Can you point to chapter
    and verse?
    you believe) and why Netanyahu is actually needed.
    That is highly debatable, considering that more than
    half of Israel's citizens did not vote for him. Ofc you
    know better than anyone else, Biden, Trump, Putin,
    Xi, the Pope and Netanyahu included.

    If you believe so strongly Netanyahu is "needed",
    why don't you move to Israel so you can vote for
    him, or whomever else you believe is "needed"?

    Incidentally, the mindset you promote sounds
    very much like Nazi Germany: Netanyahu (a
    strong, dictatorial "leader") is "needed", just
    as Adolf, Benito, Xi, Mao and Vladimir were
    "needed". Different names, same concept.

    I don't like to publish information gleaned
    from private communications, however
    since you already leaked a fragment of
    our private conversation, I will make an
    exception and mention you stated Ben
    Gurion was an idiot. You clearly need
    more Haloperidol than all the world's
    supply.

    FWIW: I didn't accuse you of being an antisemite, I
    think I said that you sounded like an antisemite,

    An exceedingly fine distinction?

    which you really do wrt Netanyahu

    Are you implying more than half of
    Israel's voters who did not vote for
    him are anti-semites? Is one not
    allowed to dislike an Israel PM
    without being called "anti-semite"?

    and the "rightwing" Israeli government,

    So in your view one is not allowed to
    use descriptive language without
    being accused of vile intentions?

    One trait you share with Herman is
    that you read intent between lines,
    while completely ignoring the text.

    and Rabbis and what not.

    So what? How is disliking the clergy
    anti-semitic? Are we all expected to
    lick their boots and suck up to them
    in order to prove we are good Jews?
    Geez!

    Note I said "your remarks" and then
    started talking about "antisemitic
    remarks" from other people.

    An exceedingly fine distinction.

    If you have any doubts about the
    remarks of Andy and Henk being
    antisemitic,

    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.

    go to some Jewish Organization
    that actually deals with defining
    antisemitism and ask them.

    Do you really think the son of
    death camp survivors needs
    to be "educated" about anti-
    semitism by some fucking
    "organization"? This would be
    exceedingly condescending
    coming from anyone. Coming
    from a kraut it is downright
    insulting.

    I request an immediate apology.

    What's remarkable is that instead of
    talking tacheles/doing some straight
    talking with Andy and Henk,

    Don't worry, Andy, Henk and I can
    settle things without your help.

    all you have on your mind is Marc S,

    How so? You are relentlessly
    attacking me for not living up
    to your notions of Iraeliness
    and Jewishness. Why are you
    so obsessed with Israeli and
    Jewish matters?

    Netanyahu, and Frank Berger
    and Rabbis.

    Stating one's disagreement
    about various matters does
    not amount to "obsession".

    You are a god damn disgrace.

    ?!? To whom ?!?

    If you actually wanted to do
    good for Israel and the Jewish
    people, you would be fighting
    antisemitism,

    You don't think I am?

    and not the people defending
    Israel from it.

    ROTFL! Such a great defender.
    You are completely deranged
    to believe anyone who does
    not like Netanyahu is against
    Israel. Taking this argument
    at face value would imply
    more than half of Israel's
    population are anti-semites.

    Now go argue with your cats.

    One never argues with one's cats.

    I have don't always have time
    for your nonsense.

    ROTFL !!!

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 01:53:36 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 10:16:21 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:52:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:50:11 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the>
    Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?
    https://giphy.com/gifs/star-trek-vulcan-mr-spock-4APAe5Vw4xHGM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
    - All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

    Douglas Adams ("The Salmon of Doubt")

    Douglas Adams - one of the most useless writers ever - is ofc right that all opinions are not equal.

    Your "argument", to depict Merkel as someone that "challenged" Putin, was based on a stupid video in which she roles her eyes - the political reality, you completely neglect. Tell me, whose opinion was well supported in argument in this context? You are
    only fanboying Merkel.

    We need to learn to think dialectically, not logically. Nazis had their "logic". Learn the difference between thinking dialectically (Hegel-Marx-Adorno) and logically (as in formal logic in math).

    Truth is only to be found by thinking dialectically (which you obviously don't have any clue about).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Jan 25 02:11:19 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 10:36:10 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:03:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 08:26:39 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:58:07 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    You are funny. Haaretz is far-left and nothing, really
    nothing, suggests a rightwards trend within Haaretz.
    You haven't been reading it for 50+ years, have you?

    But you clearly like to pontificate about stuff you
    know nothing about.
    But we all you know are paranoid.
    Still better than schizo.
    Do you know who Gideon Levy is? You remind me of him.
    You remind me of sauerkraut.
    Yediot Aharonot is "more middle ground" as far as I know,
    but still left-leaning.
    50 years ago it was considered center-right, even more so
    than the JP. Do you read/speak/understand Hebrew? Do
    you watch Israeli TV? Where do you buy your gas?
    You seem to have no idea of what "right" or "left" even
    means; you also seem to be preoccupied with the "far-right",
    never did I hear anything from you about the "far-left" in
    Israel or the USA or anywhere else.
    "Left" and "right" mean different things in different countries.

    Do you understand the concept of "nuance"? What the US
    calls "left" would barely be considered "center" in many
    European countries. What the US calls "right" would be
    considered lunatic extreme right in many Europen countries.
    Israel tends to the opposite, all the standard political labels
    tend to be "leftier" than elsewhere.
    What a joke you are... Your remarks, just as well as all the antisemitic remarks in the recent thread about Wisse's essay,
    Can you point out a single antisemitic remark I ever made?
    Disagreeing with a bigoted retarded Canadian shtetl girl
    does not equate to anti-semitism.
    give quite a good idea, about why Israel is trending
    rightwards (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing as
    Did I ever say it was "bad"? Can you point to chapter
    and verse?
    you believe) and why Netanyahu is actually needed.
    That is highly debatable, considering that more than
    half of Israel's citizens did not vote for him. Ofc you
    know better than anyone else, Biden, Trump, Putin,
    Xi, the Pope and Netanyahu included.

    If you believe so strongly Netanyahu is "needed",
    why don't you move to Israel so you can vote for
    him, or whomever else you believe is "needed"?

    Incidentally, the mindset you promote sounds
    very much like Nazi Germany: Netanyahu (a
    strong, dictatorial "leader") is "needed", just
    as Adolf, Benito, Xi, Mao and Vladimir were
    "needed". Different names, same concept.

    I don't like to publish information gleaned
    from private communications, however
    since you already leaked a fragment of
    our private conversation, I will make an
    exception and mention you stated Ben
    Gurion was an idiot. You clearly need
    more Haloperidol than all the world's
    supply.

    FWIW: I didn't accuse you of being an antisemite, I
    think I said that you sounded like an antisemite,
    An exceedingly fine distinction?
    which you really do wrt Netanyahu
    Are you implying more than half of
    Israel's voters who did not vote for
    him are anti-semites? Is one not
    allowed to dislike an Israel PM
    without being called "anti-semite"?
    and the "rightwing" Israeli government,
    So in your view one is not allowed to
    use descriptive language without
    being accused of vile intentions?

    One trait you share with Herman is
    that you read intent between lines,
    while completely ignoring the text.
    and Rabbis and what not.
    So what? How is disliking the clergy
    anti-semitic? Are we all expected to
    lick their boots and suck up to them
    in order to prove we are good Jews?
    Geez!
    Note I said "your remarks" and then
    started talking about "antisemitic
    remarks" from other people.
    An exceedingly fine distinction.
    If you have any doubts about the
    remarks of Andy and Henk being
    antisemitic,
    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.
    go to some Jewish Organization
    that actually deals with defining
    antisemitism and ask them.
    Do you really think the son of
    death camp survivors needs
    to be "educated" about anti-
    semitism by some fucking
    "organization"? This would be
    exceedingly condescending
    coming from anyone. Coming
    from a kraut it is downright
    insulting.

    I request an immediate apology.
    What's remarkable is that instead of
    talking tacheles/doing some straight
    talking with Andy and Henk,
    Don't worry, Andy, Henk and I can
    settle things without your help.
    all you have on your mind is Marc S,
    How so? You are relentlessly
    attacking me for not living up
    to your notions of Iraeliness
    and Jewishness. Why are you
    so obsessed with Israeli and
    Jewish matters?
    Netanyahu, and Frank Berger
    and Rabbis.
    Stating one's disagreement
    about various matters does
    not amount to "obsession".
    You are a god damn disgrace.
    ?!? To whom ?!?
    If you actually wanted to do
    good for Israel and the Jewish
    people, you would be fighting
    antisemitism,
    You don't think I am?
    and not the people defending
    Israel from it.
    ROTFL! Such a great defender.
    You are completely deranged
    to believe anyone who does
    not like Netanyahu is against
    Israel. Taking this argument
    at face value would imply
    more than half of Israel's
    population are anti-semites.
    Now go argue with your cats.
    One never argues with one's cats.
    I have don't always have time
    for your nonsense.
    ROTFL !!!

    dk

    Dan, I told you to argue with your cats. You seem to be mistaking me for one of your cats.

    Maybe I'll answer seriously in a bit/later... probably "für die Katz" (a waste of time) anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Jan 25 03:05:11 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 10:36:10 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:03:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 08:26:39 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:58:07 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    You are funny. Haaretz is far-left and nothing, really
    nothing, suggests a rightwards trend within Haaretz.
    You haven't been reading it for 50+ years, have you?

    But you clearly like to pontificate about stuff you
    know nothing about.
    But we all you know are paranoid.
    Still better than schizo.
    Do you know who Gideon Levy is? You remind me of him.
    You remind me of sauerkraut.
    Yediot Aharonot is "more middle ground" as far as I know,
    but still left-leaning.
    50 years ago it was considered center-right, even more so
    than the JP. Do you read/speak/understand Hebrew? Do
    you watch Israeli TV? Where do you buy your gas?
    You seem to have no idea of what "right" or "left" even
    means; you also seem to be preoccupied with the "far-right",
    never did I hear anything from you about the "far-left" in
    Israel or the USA or anywhere else.
    "Left" and "right" mean different things in different countries.

    Do you understand the concept of "nuance"? What the US
    calls "left" would barely be considered "center" in many
    European countries. What the US calls "right" would be
    considered lunatic extreme right in many Europen countries.
    Israel tends to the opposite, all the standard political labels
    tend to be "leftier" than elsewhere.
    What a joke you are... Your remarks, just as well as all the antisemitic remarks in the recent thread about Wisse's essay,
    Can you point out a single antisemitic remark I ever made?
    Disagreeing with a bigoted retarded Canadian shtetl girl
    does not equate to anti-semitism.
    give quite a good idea, about why Israel is trending
    rightwards (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing as
    Did I ever say it was "bad"? Can you point to chapter
    and verse?
    you believe) and why Netanyahu is actually needed.
    That is highly debatable, considering that more than
    half of Israel's citizens did not vote for him. Ofc you
    know better than anyone else, Biden, Trump, Putin,
    Xi, the Pope and Netanyahu included.

    If you believe so strongly Netanyahu is "needed",
    why don't you move to Israel so you can vote for
    him, or whomever else you believe is "needed"?

    Incidentally, the mindset you promote sounds
    very much like Nazi Germany: Netanyahu (a
    strong, dictatorial "leader") is "needed", just
    as Adolf, Benito, Xi, Mao and Vladimir were
    "needed". Different names, same concept.

    I don't like to publish information gleaned
    from private communications, however
    since you already leaked a fragment of
    our private conversation, I will make an
    exception and mention you stated Ben
    Gurion was an idiot. You clearly need
    more Haloperidol than all the world's
    supply.

    FWIW: I didn't accuse you of being an antisemite, I
    think I said that you sounded like an antisemite,
    An exceedingly fine distinction?
    which you really do wrt Netanyahu
    Are you implying more than half of
    Israel's voters who did not vote for
    him are anti-semites? Is one not
    allowed to dislike an Israel PM
    without being called "anti-semite"?
    and the "rightwing" Israeli government,
    So in your view one is not allowed to
    use descriptive language without
    being accused of vile intentions?

    One trait you share with Herman is
    that you read intent between lines,
    while completely ignoring the text.
    and Rabbis and what not.
    So what? How is disliking the clergy
    anti-semitic? Are we all expected to
    lick their boots and suck up to them
    in order to prove we are good Jews?
    Geez!
    Note I said "your remarks" and then
    started talking about "antisemitic
    remarks" from other people.
    An exceedingly fine distinction.
    If you have any doubts about the
    remarks of Andy and Henk being
    antisemitic,
    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.
    go to some Jewish Organization
    that actually deals with defining
    antisemitism and ask them.
    Do you really think the son of
    death camp survivors needs
    to be "educated" about anti-
    semitism by some fucking
    "organization"? This would be
    exceedingly condescending
    coming from anyone. Coming
    from a kraut it is downright
    insulting.

    I request an immediate apology.
    What's remarkable is that instead of
    talking tacheles/doing some straight
    talking with Andy and Henk,
    Don't worry, Andy, Henk and I can
    settle things without your help.
    all you have on your mind is Marc S,
    How so? You are relentlessly
    attacking me for not living up
    to your notions of Iraeliness
    and Jewishness. Why are you
    so obsessed with Israeli and
    Jewish matters?
    Netanyahu, and Frank Berger
    and Rabbis.
    Stating one's disagreement
    about various matters does
    not amount to "obsession".
    You are a god damn disgrace.
    ?!? To whom ?!?
    If you actually wanted to do
    good for Israel and the Jewish
    people, you would be fighting
    antisemitism,
    You don't think I am?
    and not the people defending
    Israel from it.
    ROTFL! Such a great defender.
    You are completely deranged
    to believe anyone who does
    not like Netanyahu is against
    Israel. Taking this argument
    at face value would imply
    more than half of Israel's
    population are anti-semites.
    Now go argue with your cats.
    One never argues with one's cats.
    I have don't always have time
    for your nonsense.
    ROTFL !!!

    dk

    After skimming through your nonsense, I have decided that it's not worth my time to respond to it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 25 06:04:32 2023
    I was just reading this...

    "The United States’ network of alliances has long been a central pillar of its foreign policy—and, as competition with China has intensified in recent years, held up as a major U.S. advantage. The administration of President Joe Biden has put a
    particular emphasis on allies in its Asia strategy. In its first year, the administration has both strengthened long-standing alliances such as those with Japan and South Korea and put considerable energy into bolstering multilateral partnerships such as
    the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue (with Australia, India, and Japan) and the newly formed AUKUS pact (with Australia and the United Kingdom)".

    These may be alliances, but economic necessities such as the need for energy or Chinese exports may compromise some of them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 25 07:50:32 2023
    Op woensdag 25 januari 2023 om 10:36:10 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.

    Dan, I just stumbled upon this. I don't think we should do as if it weren't written. Do you want to deal with it now or at a later time?

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 10:34:52 2023
    On 2023-01-25 07:48:22 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 20:36:54 UTC+1:
    Simply by calling it "immature," you are finding an "excuse" for his>
    behavior. I think my reasons for him doing what he did are more>
    accurate than yours. And there is a difference between "excusing">
    someone's behavior and seeing a "reason" for that behavior.

    You know, when I wrote "immature" yesterday, I thought that this wasn't really approriate, because it is sort of an euphemism wrt to Putin's behaviour. I shouldn't have used this word, I should have sticked to "paranoid".

    Your replacement word is still an "excuse."


    As every reasonable person would be able to tell, I am not "excusing" anything, I am "criticisng" him for being "immature"; while you are
    coming up with explanations that _seemingly_ make Putin's actions
    plausible - completely deranged on your part.

    I suppose it is a derangement to try to find someone's motivations for
    a stupid thing they did?


    If the Ukraine asks to be included into the NATO, it's fine as well,> >
    just as it is for Finland and Sweden. And if Putin wants to, like any>
    reasonably would like to, he can join the Nato as well. But since he
    megalomaniac and paranoid, he won't and further abuse human
    rights.> >> > And instead of criticising the hell out of Russia and how
    Europe -> > except for Poland and some other countries which I can't
    think of right> > now, and ofc the USA outside of Europe - you
    rationalise Putin's> > invasion of the Ukraine (CIA regime change, and
    what not - as if regime> > changes would automatically always be
    something bad).
    Are you saying the US should continue to be in the regime change>
    business? Why wouldn't Putin see this as another attempt at regime>
    change? His regime change.

    You idiot, putin is trying a regiem change in russia

    This idiot thinks you meant to say Ukraine.


    What I'm saying is, and this isn't really hard to understand:
    The people of Ukraine want to be free from Russia, they want a
    pro-western government and they want to be included in the NATO - all
    for obvious reasons (human rights, higher living standards, military alliances etc). Ofc the west is not perfect in advancing human rights
    and often failed miserably, but compare the west to Russia or China etc.

    "If" the USA helped the Ukrainian' achieve a regime change that the
    people endorsed, I don't see any problem with it, as opposed to a
    US-hating idiot like you. It should also be noted that Ukraine was not
    a "regime" under the pro-western government. As I have made clear
    multiple times already, the Ukrainains are fighting against Russia and
    are in support of a pro-western Government. So it's actually russia
    that is attempting a regime change that is contrary to the principles
    of the people. If the west wants to stand by its principles and values,
    we have to help Ukraine fight for freedom.

    Imagine you were living in the Ukraine and get invaded by Russians,
    wouldn't you want the west to help you? Do you want to live under
    Russian rule?

    You miss the point completely. Let me simplify. It is a good thing
    that Ukraine is standing up to the Russians. I hope the Russians fail miserably and retreat like they did in Afghanistan. OTOH, it is a bad
    thing if the US purposefully tried to egg on Russian into going to war.
    War is a bad thing, and, for the first time in over 70 years, people
    are waving nukes about like they intend to use them. We have a
    President exhibiting senility whose hands are knee deep involved in interference in this country, selling tanks and what not against a
    nuclear power.

    Now tell us again how good this war is.


    It's all so obvious. I'm not going to read any further - you are
    completely deranged.

    You said that last time. Do you have a reading disability which
    requires you to stop at reading the midway of every post?

    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Wed Jan 25 08:38:53 2023
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 15:50:35 UTC, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    Op woensdag 25 januari 2023 om 10:36:10 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.
    Dan, I just stumbled upon this. I don't think we should do as if it weren't written. Do you want to deal with it now or at a later time?
    Henk

    As for me, I've said many times that calling anything that criticises the actions of the state of Israel "antisemitism" is nonsense and should be ignored.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Wed Jan 25 08:39:10 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 16:34:59 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-25 07:48:22 +0000, Marc S said:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 20:36:54 UTC+1:
    Simply by calling it "immature," you are finding an "excuse" for his>
    behavior. I think my reasons for him doing what he did are more>
    accurate than yours. And there is a difference between "excusing">
    someone's behavior and seeing a "reason" for that behavior.

    You know, when I wrote "immature" yesterday, I thought that this wasn't really approriate, because it is sort of an euphemism wrt to Putin's behaviour. I shouldn't have used this word, I should have sticked to "paranoid".
    Your replacement word is still an "excuse."

    No, it's a description of his personality, blaming Putin solely; while you are pointing at the USA (Regime Change blablabla), indirectly blaming the USA for Putin's decision, completely leaving out the Ukraine out of all your considerations on this
    matter. Says a lot about yourself.


    As every reasonable person would be able to tell, I am not "excusing" anything, I am "criticisng" him for being "immature"; while you are
    coming up with explanations that _seemingly_ make Putin's actions plausible - completely deranged on your part.
    I suppose it is a derangement to try to find someone's motivations for
    a stupid thing they did?

    I believe you think what Putin did was wrong, but, what the fuck does the USA have to do with him marching into Ukraine? As I already explained, the USA does not pose a threat to him, neither does Europe or the Ukraine.



    If the Ukraine asks to be included into the NATO, it's fine as well,> > >>> just as it is for Finland and Sweden. And if Putin wants to, like any> >>> > reasonably would like to, he can join the Nato as well. But since he >>> is> > megalomaniac and paranoid, he won't and further abuse human
    rights.> >> > And instead of criticising the hell out of Russia and how >>> Europe -> > except for Poland and some other countries which I can't
    think of right> > now, and ofc the USA outside of Europe - you
    rationalise Putin's> > invasion of the Ukraine (CIA regime change, and >>> what not - as if regime> > changes would automatically always be
    something bad).
    Are you saying the US should continue to be in the regime change>
    business? Why wouldn't Putin see this as another attempt at regime>
    change? His regime change.

    You idiot, putin is trying a regiem change in russia
    This idiot thinks you meant to say Ukraine.

    At least you agree that you are an idiot, which your comment proves btw.

    Now I'm done wasting time talking any further with you...

    If you can't see the nonsense you are saying with "Are you saying the US should continue the regime change-business" wrt the war in Ukraine, I believe you have lost touch with reality.


    What I'm saying is, and this isn't really hard to understand:
    The people of Ukraine want to be free from Russia, they want a
    pro-western government and they want to be included in the NATO - all
    for obvious reasons (human rights, higher living standards, military alliances etc). Ofc the west is not perfect in advancing human rights
    and often failed miserably, but compare the west to Russia or China etc.

    "If" the USA helped the Ukrainian' achieve a regime change that the
    people endorsed, I don't see any problem with it, as opposed to a US-hating idiot like you. It should also be noted that Ukraine was not
    a "regime" under the pro-western government. As I have made clear
    multiple times already, the Ukrainains are fighting against Russia and
    are in support of a pro-western Government. So it's actually russia
    that is attempting a regime change that is contrary to the principles
    of the people. If the west wants to stand by its principles and values,
    we have to help Ukraine fight for freedom.

    Imagine you were living in the Ukraine and get invaded by Russians, wouldn't you want the west to help you? Do you want to live under
    Russian rule?
    You miss the point completely. Let me simplify. It is a good thing
    that Ukraine is standing up to the Russians. I hope the Russians fail miserably and retreat like they did in Afghanistan. OTOH, it is a bad
    thing if the US purposefully tried to egg on Russian into going to war.
    War is a bad thing, and, for the first time in over 70 years, people
    are waving nukes about like they intend to use them. We have a
    President exhibiting senility whose hands are knee deep involved in interference in this country, selling tanks and what not against a
    nuclear power.

    Now tell us again how good this war is.

    It's all so obvious. I'm not going to read any further - you are completely deranged.
    You said that last time. Do you have a reading disability which
    requires you to stop at reading the midway of every post?

    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Wed Jan 25 08:44:53 2023
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 16:50:35 UTC+1:
    Op woensdag 25 januari 2023 om 10:36:10 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.
    Dan, I just stumbled upon this. I don't think we should do as if it weren't written. Do you want to deal with it now or at a later time?

    Henk

    It will be of no use anyway with you, and I don't even think Dan really understands it himself to explain it to you. He may feel it, but I'm not sure if he could explain why specific remarks of yours were antisemitic (even Frank seems to have a bit of
    trouble doing so, or maybe he is too nice while doing so).

    If you want to be honest, take your remarks from that thread to a Jewish organization and ask them - but no, you will not, you will just continue claiming that you are no antisemite, like a child, without having understood anything.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 11:57:24 2023
    On 2023-01-25 16:39:10 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 16:34:59 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-25 07:48:22 +0000, Marc S said:



    As every reasonable person would be able to tell, I am not "excusing">
    anything, I am "criticisng" him for being "immature"; while you are>
    coming up with explanations that _seemingly_ make Putin's actions> >
    plausible - completely deranged on your part.
    I suppose it is a derangement to try to find someone's motivations for>
    a stupid thing they did?

    I believe you think what Putin did was wrong, but, what the fuck does
    the USA have to do with him marching into Ukraine? As I already
    explained, the USA does not pose a threat to him, neither does Europe
    or the Ukraine.

    The USA does not pose a threat to Putin? Do you really think that?
    Then you really haven't thought about this at all. The US has been a
    threat to Russia and the Soviet Union since 1945. The President of the
    United States (who could be described as unstable) stated that "For
    God’s sake, this man must not remain in power." Just who did he think
    would put Putin out of power?

    You think this is all happening in a vacuum? The world is now closer
    to nuclear war than at any other time, including the Cuban Missile
    crisis. This isn't a football game, with a winner and a loser.

    I'll keep my responses short, as you stated you clearly you do not have
    the attention span to read until the end.

    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 09:14:05 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 9:12:51 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 8:57:30 AM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-25 16:39:10 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 16:34:59 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-25 07:48:22 +0000, Marc S said:



    As every reasonable person would be able to tell, I am not "excusing"> >>> > anything, I am "criticisng" him for being "immature"; while you are> >>> > coming up with explanations that _seemingly_ make Putin's actions> > >>> plausible - completely deranged on your part.
    I suppose it is a derangement to try to find someone's motivations for> >> a stupid thing they did?

    I believe you think what Putin did was wrong, but, what the fuck does the USA have to do with him marching into Ukraine? As I already explained, the USA does not pose a threat to him, neither does Europe
    or the Ukraine.
    The USA does not pose a threat to Putin? Do you really think that?
    Then you really haven't thought about this at all. The US has been a threat to Russia and the Soviet Union since 1945. The President of the United States (who could be described as unstable) stated that "For God’s sake, this man must not remain in power." Just who did he think would put Putin out of power?

    You think this is all happening in a vacuum? The world is now closer
    to nuclear war than at any other time, including the Cuban Missile
    crisis. This isn't a football game, with a winner and a loser...

    (2023 Y. upload):

    "''So We Are Facing A Nuclear War in 2023'' / Joe Rogan"

    (2022 Y. upload):

    "Will there be a nuclear war? | Chris Blattman and Lex Fridman"

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Wed Jan 25 09:12:48 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 8:57:30 AM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-25 16:39:10 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 16:34:59 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-25 07:48:22 +0000, Marc S said:



    As every reasonable person would be able to tell, I am not "excusing"> >>> > anything, I am "criticisng" him for being "immature"; while you are> >>> > coming up with explanations that _seemingly_ make Putin's actions> > >>> plausible - completely deranged on your part.
    I suppose it is a derangement to try to find someone's motivations for> >> a stupid thing they did?

    I believe you think what Putin did was wrong, but, what the fuck does
    the USA have to do with him marching into Ukraine? As I already
    explained, the USA does not pose a threat to him, neither does Europe
    or the Ukraine.
    The USA does not pose a threat to Putin? Do you really think that?
    Then you really haven't thought about this at all. The US has been a
    threat to Russia and the Soviet Union since 1945. The President of the United States (who could be described as unstable) stated that "For
    God’s sake, this man must not remain in power." Just who did he think would put Putin out of power?

    You think this is all happening in a vacuum? The world is now closer
    to nuclear war than at any other time, including the Cuban Missile
    crisis. This isn't a football game, with a winner and a loser...

    (2023 Y. upload):

    "''So We Are Facing A Nuclear War in 2023'' / Joe Rogan"

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 09:47:53 2023
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:18:39 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    If I ever thought that classical music had a civilizing influence on people...

    It's not classical music, it's the Internet.

    Anyway, I find jazz a lot more civilising.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 09:18:36 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the> >> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?

    If I ever thought that classical music had a civilizing influence on people...

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Jan 25 10:00:40 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 6:47:56 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 17:18:39 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    If I ever thought that classical music had a civilizing influence on people...
    It's not classical music, it's the Internet.

    Agree with Andy a hundred percent.

    The internet has changed the way we interact for the worse.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 25 10:04:38 2023
    Op woensdag 25 januari 2023 om 17:44:55 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 16:50:35 UTC+1:
    Op woensdag 25 januari 2023 om 10:36:10 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.
    Dan, I just stumbled upon this. I don't think we should do as if it weren't written. Do you want to deal with it now or at a later time?

    Henk
    It will be of no use anyway with you, and I don't even think Dan really understands it himself to explain it to you. He may feel it, but I'm not sure if he could explain why specific remarks of yours were antisemitic (even Frank seems to have a bit of
    trouble doing so, or maybe he is too nice while doing so).

    If you want to be honest, take your remarks from that thread to a Jewish organization and ask them - but no, you will not, you will just continue claiming that you are no antisemite, like a child, without having understood anything.

    Delegating your problems again, Marc? You needn't be sorry for Dan. He's a grown up, not a sometimes brilliant and pleasant to be with but too often panicky youngster like you. Besides, you called him an antisemite too, didn't you? As to your
    institutions, I couldn't care less. I'm interested in what Dan has to say. He's one of us.

    Henk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Wed Jan 25 10:20:17 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 17:57:30 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-25 16:39:10 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 16:34:59 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-25 07:48:22 +0000, Marc S said:



    As every reasonable person would be able to tell, I am not "excusing"> >>> > anything, I am "criticisng" him for being "immature"; while you are> >>> > coming up with explanations that _seemingly_ make Putin's actions> > >>> plausible - completely deranged on your part.
    I suppose it is a derangement to try to find someone's motivations for> >> a stupid thing they did?

    I believe you think what Putin did was wrong, but, what the fuck does
    the USA have to do with him marching into Ukraine? As I already
    explained, the USA does not pose a threat to him, neither does Europe
    or the Ukraine.
    The USA does not pose a threat to Putin? Do you really think that?

    In the mind of a lunatic (like yours) the USA obviously does. As I have already explained in this thread: If Russia were peace-loving and caring for human rights, they could simply join the NATO as well.

    In reality, it's ofc Putin that does pose a threat to the peace of the world, not the USA like you are making it out to be in your deluded mind. Go kiss Putin's butt you god damn ignorant. People are dying in the Ukraine because of Putin, not because of
    the USA, we need to help them - get this in your fucking head.

    If you were civilised in any form or way, I wouldn't be having the discussion I am having with you. Have fun reading the LA Times.

    Then you really haven't thought about this at all. The US has been a
    threat to Russia and the Soviet Union since 1945. The President of the United States (who could be described as unstable) stated that "For
    God’s sake, this man must not remain in power." Just who did he think would put Putin out of power?

    You think this is all happening in a vacuum? The world is now closer
    to nuclear war than at any other time, including the Cuban Missile
    crisis. This isn't a football game, with a winner and a loser.

    I'll keep my responses short, as you stated you clearly you do not have
    the attention span to read until the end.

    -Owen

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Jan 25 13:44:59 2023
    On 1/25/2023 11:38 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 15:50:35 UTC, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    Op woensdag 25 januari 2023 om 10:36:10 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.
    Dan, I just stumbled upon this. I don't think we should do as if it weren't written. Do you want to deal with it now or at a later time?
    Henk

    As for me, I've said many times that calling anything that criticises the actions of the state of Israel "antisemitism" is nonsense and should be ignored.


    You are aware, Andy, are you not, that the accusation that Jews always claim any criticism of Israel is antisemitic or based on antisemitism is itself a false statement used by real antisemites. Be careful whose speech yours resembles. Making no
    accusations.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Wed Jan 25 10:50:28 2023
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 18:45:05 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    You are aware, Andy, are you not, that the accusation that Jews always claim any criticism of Israel is antisemitic or based on antisemitism is itself a false statement used by real antisemites. Be careful whose speech yours resembles. Making no
    accusations.

    I'm afraid I don't follow you here, Frank. Anyone can criticise the actions of the state of Israel - Jews or non-Jews. Like they can criticise the actions of any other state. I have no idea what this "resembles"..... It's quite straightforward, surely?

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Jan 25 13:50:39 2023
    On 1/24/2023 1:52 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 18:46:14 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the way
    of their Hindu Rashtra project. A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    It seems to be a widespread policy today for governments to try to control
    1. The media
    2. The judiciary

    Moves to control the judiciary by Netanyahu and many other leaders and parties like the Republicans have become commonplace, hence the understandable media attention on "democracy in jeopardy".

    I don't believe you responded to my comment about Netanyahu trying to "control the judiciary." Specifically that they want to temper the monopoly power the Israeli Supreme Court has over legislation. I don't know how it works in other parliamentary
    systems that don't have a Constitution that constrains SCOTUS (or is supposed to) in the U.S.


    Nor did you answer whether Democrats in the U.S. wanting to add some number of justices to SCOTUS is an effort to "control the judiciary."

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Jan 25 14:04:59 2023
    On 1/25/2023 1:50 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 18:45:05 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    You are aware, Andy, are you not, that the accusation that Jews always claim any criticism of Israel is antisemitic or based on antisemitism is itself a false statement used by real antisemites. Be careful whose speech yours resembles. Making no
    accusations.

    I'm afraid I don't follow you here, Frank. Anyone can criticise the actions of the state of Israel - Jews or non-Jews. Like they can criticise the actions of any other state. I have no idea what this "resembles"..... It's quite straightforward, surely?

    My comment is complete clear. I can't think how to make it clearer. Perhaps an example:

    A real antisemite (you know there really are such people, right?) criticizes Israel (because he is an antisemite and will criticize Israel about anything and everything).

    Someone calls him an antisemite, and he responds, "Oh you Jews always say any criticism of Israel is antisemitic."

    Get it?

    Antisemites or if you prefer anti-Zionists, will tend to find fault with Israel reflexively. For example, blasting proposed judicial reform as ANTI DEMOCRATIC and fascist without even knowing what the status quo is or what the proposals change.

    An other good one is criticizing the current government's policy vis a vis the Palestinians when Labor governments had virtually the same policies.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Wed Jan 25 12:00:22 2023
    Frank Berger schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 20:05:07 UTC+1:
    On 1/25/2023 1:50 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 18:45:05 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    You are aware, Andy, are you not, that the accusation that Jews always claim any criticism of Israel is antisemitic or based on antisemitism is itself a false statement used by real antisemites. Be careful whose speech yours resembles. Making no
    accusations.

    I'm afraid I don't follow you here, Frank. Anyone can criticise the actions of the state of Israel - Jews or non-Jews. Like they can criticise the actions of any other state. I have no idea what this "resembles"..... It's quite straightforward,
    surely?
    My comment is complete clear. I can't think how to make it clearer. Perhaps an example:

    A real antisemite (you know there really are such people, right?) criticizes Israel (because he is an antisemite and will criticize Israel about anything and everything).

    Someone calls him an antisemite, and he responds, "Oh you Jews always say any criticism of Israel is antisemitic."

    Get it?

    Antisemites or if you prefer anti-Zionists, will tend to find fault with Israel reflexively.

    Precisely, "reflexively" is the point. Antisemitism lives in the subconsciousness of individuals. Antisemitic actions (such as antisemitic remarks) follow subconscious mechanisms, of which the subject (Andy) is completely oblivious. Antisemitic ideas and
    notions float around in our society, which is how they got there. Since antisemitism, following the shoah, is condemned publicly, antisemites have to find a different valve to channel their delirium, that is where Israel comes in.

    They can't be reasoned with (or only after much work has been put into it), as is the case with Andy and Henk. Noone is sayign that "every" criticism of Israel is antisemitic, yet Andy makes it out to be that way; thereby showing how unreasonable he is.
    He doesn't even _really_ want to understand where Frank is coming from, because Andy has his mind set up about Israel anyway - as his attitude shows.

    For example, blasting proposed judicial reform as ANTI DEMOCRATIC and fascist without even knowing what the status quo is or what the proposals change.

    An other good one is criticizing the current government's policy vis a vis the Palestinians when Labor governments had virtually the same policies.

    I have to take back what I said before, Frank can explain antisemitism quite well.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Wed Jan 25 13:46:30 2023
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 19:05:07 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    My comment is complete clear. I can't think how to make it clearer. Perhaps an example:
    A real antisemite (you know there really are such people, right?) criticizes Israel (because he is an antisemite and will criticize Israel about anything and everything).

    That doesn't follow. It's a complete non sequitor. The ACTIONS of the state of Israel are not "Israel" any more than the policies of the Tory government are "The United Kingdom".

    Someone calls him an antisemite, and he responds, "Oh you Jews always say any criticism of Israel is antisemitic."
    Get it?

    I didn't say that at all. You are making all this up.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Jan 25 19:21:24 2023
    On 1/25/2023 4:46 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 19:05:07 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    My comment is complete clear. I can't think how to make it clearer. Perhaps an example:
    A real antisemite (you know there really are such people, right?) criticizes Israel (because he is an antisemite and will criticize Israel about anything and everything).




    That doesn't follow. It's a complete non sequitor. The ACTIONS of the state of Israel are not "Israel" any more than the policies of the Tory government are "The United Kingdom".


    There is nothing to follow or not follow. I gave an example of a person behaving in a certain way. It has nothing to do with logic. When I said "criticizes Israel" what could I mean other than criticizes the policies of the government?"

    Someone calls him an antisemite, and he responds, "Oh you Jews always say any criticism of Israel is antisemitic."
    Get it?

    I didn't say that at all. You are making all this up.

    I didn't say you said anything at all. Are obfuscating on purpose?

    One more try. I understand that if you say Israel (i.e., the government thereof) should, say, abandon the West Bank to the Palestinians. Calling you an antisemite because of what you said is not warranted. But suppose the reason you think Israel should
    give up the West Bank IS because you really do hate Jews and Israel and you are always going to be against anything Israel (the government thereof) does. Note I said "suppose." How am I, wanting to identify antisemitism, supposed to tell what is
    motivating your position?

    You have on more than one occasion pointed out that criticizing actions of the government of Israel is not antisemitic. That is true. But often people who say that follow it up with "You Jews always accuse people of antisemitism just for criticizing
    Israeli policies. That is a lie, and is antisemitic. You didn't say that, but is almost implied by what you did say. Otherwise, why say it?

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 16:16:16 2023
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:40:07 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 09:12:30 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:08:33 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-8, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-01-23 15:53:31 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 16:10:57 UTC+1:
    I think Putin botched any serious association with China with the> >> Ukraine war. When Putin met Xi, you could see the look of "Am I>
    dealing with a lunatic?" on Xi's face...

    Merkel rolled her eyes when Putin made a comment to her on what was probably one of their last encounters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OexlkYDoEBg
    Do you jerk off to Merkel often?

    https://giphy.com/gifs/biglittlelies-season-2-big-little-lies-episode-one-Mdw0bm7D7uBG2qEZrm

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 25 23:25:41 2023
    On 2023-01-25 18:20:17 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 17:57:30 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-25 16:39:10 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
    Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 16:34:59 UTC+1:> >> On 2023-01-25 07:48:22
    +0000, Marc S said:>> >> >>>> >>> As every reasonable person would be
    able to tell, I am not "excusing">> >>> > anything, I am "criticisng"
    him for being "immature"; while you are>> >>> > coming up with
    explanations that _seemingly_ make Putin's actions> >> >>> plausible -
    completely deranged on your part.> >> I suppose it is a derangement to
    try to find someone's motivations for>> >> a stupid thing they did?> >>
    I believe you think what Putin did was wrong, but, what the fuck
    does> > the USA have to do with him marching into Ukraine? As I
    already> > explained, the USA does not pose a threat to him, neither
    does Europe> > or the Ukraine.
    The USA does not pose a threat to Putin? Do you really think that?
    In the mind of a lunatic (like yours) the USA obviously does. As I have already explained in this thread: If Russia were peace-loving and
    caring for human rights, they could simply join the NATO as well.

    You are probably too young to recall just why NATO was formed, as
    protection for western Europe FROM Russia. If Russia were to join, then
    there would be no need for NATO. But we stray from the point...

    In reality, it's ofc Putin that does pose a threat to the peace of the
    world, not the USA like you are making it out to be in your deluded
    mind. Go kiss Putin's butt you god damn ignorant. People are dying in
    the Ukraine because of Putin, not because of the USA, we need to help
    them - get this in your fucking head.


    If you were civilised in any form or way, I wouldn't be having the
    discussion I am having with you. Have fun reading the LA Times.

    You seem to be twisting my actual words, then just attacking me. Does
    that make you feel superior? Have you discussed this need to feel
    superior with your therapist?

    -Owen

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 22:31:30 2023
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:46:14 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:26:06 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Where India stands in terms of alignment is interesting. It has been a "non-aligned country" when that meant anything. The NAM still exists and meets, but it has very little influence. India abstained from the UN vote on Ukraine in January 2022. It
    uses Russian military equipment but at the same time met with Boris Johnson over trade talks. Often called "on the fence" it hasn't declared for any side. It's wary of Chinese influence in Asia, but geographically it is far from the USA and has to
    consider its borders. How a new prime minister would act is anybody's guess. Modi still has high approval ratings so it may be a while.
    According to this recent article:

    - Slowly but surely, much in the style of Germany under Hitler in the 1930s, the Modi government over two elected terms has nearly the entire Indian media in its pocket. So much so that when the government has ordered taking down of tweets and youtube
    postings on and of the documentary, the irony of the moment is almost lost.

    For in every little act of censorship like this one, Modi and his friends come out looking like bigger fascists, only end up confirming what they refute – that they will brazenly extinguish the tiniest flickers of dissent or questioning in the way of
    their Hindu Rashtra project.

    A few discerning voices ask – why impose such a blackout if you are not guilty, have formidable power, and supposedly no one to be afraid of?

    https://countercurrents.org/2023/01/the-unanswered-modi-question-in-bbcs-documentary-that-provokes-us-to-come-out-and-defend-humanity/

    https://news.yahoo.com/indian-government-trying-block-people-124200789.html

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Thu Jan 26 01:53:27 2023
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 00:21:30 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    You have on more than one occasion pointed out that criticizing actions of the government of Israel is not antisemitic. That is true.

    Thank you, Frank. Now can we leave it there?

    All these interminable posts about antisemitism are going on and on and on and on....... and going absolutely nowhere.

    There are plenty of other things to discuss. And this thread has nothing to do with antisemitism. Can we move on at long last?

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Thu Jan 26 03:08:48 2023
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 11:02:17 UTC, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of the truth.

    Journalism is overrated. The official media are part of the establishment. Our former queen called it a parrot circuit. She shouldn't have said that, of course... > Henk

    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment. In my country the BBC has a strong NATO bias. All one can do is identify the particular bias and filter your interpretation accordingly. And use parallel sources. I flip between Al Jazeera
    and Euronews most of the time to get different perspectives.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 03:02:14 2023
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 11:16:58 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 06:31:32 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of the truth.

    Journalism is overrated. The official media are part of the establishment. Our former queen called it a parrot circuit. She shouldn't have said that, of course...

    Henk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Jan 26 02:16:56 2023
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 06:31:32 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    - Slowly but surely, much in the style of Germany under Hitler in the 1930s, the Modi government over two elected terms has nearly the entire Indian media in its pocket. So much so that when the government has ordered taking down of tweets and
    youtube postings on and of the documentary, the irony of the moment is almost lost.

    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of the truth.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 04:21:50 2023
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 12:08:50 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:

    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment. In my country the BBC has a strong NATO bias. All one can do is identify the particular bias and filter your interpretation accordingly. And use parallel sources. I flip between Al Jazeera
    and Euronews most of the time to get different perspectives.

    I agree with you about Al Jazeera. It is refreshing. YT can also be informative. The sheer number of biased accounts gives a more reliable picture of a situation. Isn't there a maxim that says a larger number of witnesses gives a better picture of a
    situation?

    Yet, I still follow the official media too. I know what war is and I don't like what I see and hear these days. Western politicians far too easily support one of the most corrupt nations in the world with no idea where it will end.

    By the way, my hats off to Zelensky, the Churchill of Ukraine.

    Henk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Jan 26 09:09:11 2023
    On 1/26/2023 6:08 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 11:02:17 UTC, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of the truth.

    Journalism is overrated. The official media are part of the establishment. Our former queen called it a parrot circuit. She shouldn't have said that, of course... > Henk

    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment. In my country the BBC has a strong NATO bias. All one can do is identify the particular bias and filter your interpretation accordingly. And use parallel sources. I flip between Al Jazeera
    and Euronews most of the time to get different perspectives.



    No one can make you talk about anything you don't want to talk about. You posted 13 times in this OT thread started by Owen. My entry was prompted by YOUR accusing the Netanyahu government of trying to control the courts. When challenged on that (
    twice) you refused to discuss it further. Hit and Run Andy.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 06:35:18 2023
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 12:21:52 UTC, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:

    YT can also be informative.... > Henk

    Yes it can - very informative. But not very up-to-the-minute.

    Is YT available to citizens in Russia, India and China? I don't know much about how countries "control" the internet.

    I don't know about TV coverage either - does China get Japanese TV stations?

    Does N.Korea get TV coverage from S.Korea?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Thu Jan 26 06:42:31 2023
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 13:21:52 UTC+1:
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 12:08:50 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment. In my country the BBC has a strong NATO bias. All one can do is identify the particular bias and filter your interpretation accordingly. And use parallel sources. I flip between Al
    Jazeera and Euronews most of the time to get different perspectives.
    I agree with you about Al Jazeera. It is refreshing.

    Henk, are you shitting me? An arabic broadcasting network based in _Qatar_, in fucking _Qatar_, owned by Sheikh Hamad bin Khlaifa Al Thani.

    This guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamad_bin_Khalifa_Al_Thani

    And you think, that this news network is trustworthy? Forgot about how human rights get abused in Qatar? Would you think the qatari news network would ever take time critically addressing the human rights status in Qatar or Palestine? Ofc not, because
    antisemites are obsessed with Israel.

    You "cry" about Elon Musk and Twitter, but find "Al Jazeera" refreshing. You are very funny. No wonder you think the IDF shot Shireen Abu Akleh purposefully.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Thu Jan 26 06:47:55 2023
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 13:21:52 UTC+1:
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 12:08:50 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment. In my country the BBC has a strong NATO bias. All one can do is identify the particular bias and filter your interpretation accordingly. And use parallel sources. I flip between Al
    Jazeera and Euronews most of the time to get different perspectives.
    I agree with you about Al Jazeera. It is refreshing.

    Henk, are you shitting me? You find "Al Jazeera" refreshing? A Qatari based broadcasting network owned by Sheikh Hamid bin Khalifa al Thani.

    This guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamad_bin_Khalifa_Al_Thani

    You are very funny. No wonder you think the IDF purposefully murdered Shireen Abu Akleh. Do you know how human rights get abused in Qatar? Would you think, that Al Jazeera would ever address problems in Qatar or in Palestine? Ofc not, because antisemites
    are obsessed with Israel.

    Have fun watching the "refreshing" qatari news network.

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Thu Jan 26 07:26:27 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 3:09:19 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:


    No one can make you talk about anything you don't want to talk about. You posted 13 times in this OT thread started by Owen. My entry was prompted by YOUR accusing the Netanyahu government of trying to control the courts. When challenged on that (twice)
    you refused to discuss it further. Hit and Run Andy.

    Please let it go.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Thu Jan 26 07:48:22 2023
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 13:21:52 UTC+1:
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 12:08:50 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment. In my country the BBC has a strong NATO bias. All one can do is identify the particular bias and filter your interpretation accordingly. And use parallel sources. I flip between Al
    Jazeera and Euronews most of the time to get different perspectives.
    I agree with you about Al Jazeera. It is refreshing.

    You find Al Jazeera "refreshing". A Qatari broadcasting station owned by Sheikh Hamid bin Khalifa al Thani. No wonder you think Israe

    This guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamad_bin_Khalifa_Al_Thani

    You are very funny. No wonder you (and Andy) think the IDF killed Shireen Abu Akleh purposefully. Do you know about the human rights abuses in Qatar (or Palestine)? Does Al Jazeera report on this? Or the antisemitism in Qatar? Ofc not, instead Al Jazeera
    is obsessed with Israel, imagining all kinds of human rights abuses on the side of Israel. Typical for antisemites.

    Funny how people here get triggered by fox news articles, but al jazeera is ofc "refreshing". What a fucked up place this is.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Thu Jan 26 08:40:54 2023
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 17:26:27 UTC+1:
    Could it be that this escaped you?

    https://www.jns.org/jewish-life-to-blossom-in-qatar/

    Henk

    What does this have to do with the general mentality in qatar and al jazeera in particular? Have you seen how the Israeli reporters go attacked during the world cup?

    https://forward.com/opinion/527259/qatar-harassing-israeli-journalists-world-cup/

    And Palestinian flags being flung in the stadiums, while rainbow flags were banned. Ask Dan, if he would feel safe in Qatar. Jewish Life does not "blossom" in qatar, that is a euphemism. But it's probably better than 10-20 years ago.

    So the topic is Al Jazeera, and JNS (the news station you quoted to refute my argument about Al Jazeera) has this posted about Al Jazeerah and Shireen Abu Akleh:

    "Israeli Prime Minister Yair Lapid criticized the move, saying in a statement that “No one will investigate IDF soldiers and no one will preach to us about morals in warfare, certainly not Al-Jazeera.”"

    https://www.jns.org/al-jazeera-asks-icc-to-open-probe-into-abu-akleh-killing/

    Yair Lapid is not even right wing and he makes fun of Al Jazeera. See Henk, you are completely deluded.

    Have fun telling yourself that Al Jazeera and you yourself are in no way antisemitic.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 08:44:20 2023
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 17:30:43 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:>
    Yes it can - very informative. But not very up-to-the-minute.
    Is YT available to citizens in Russia, India and China? I don't know much about how countries "control" the internet.
    I don't know about TV coverage either - does China get Japanese TV stations? Does N.Korea get TV coverage from S.Korea?

    I know that Russia didn't block YT. India certainly didn't. I don't know about China. However, there is always VPN (don't ask me please what it is or how it works) that offers access all over the world.

    Henk

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 08:26:24 2023
    Could it be that this escaped you?

    https://www.jns.org/jewish-life-to-blossom-in-qatar/

    Henk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Jan 26 08:55:25 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 3:08:50 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 11:02:17 UTC, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of the truth.

    Journalism is overrated. The official media are part of the establishment. Our former queen called it a parrot circuit. She shouldn't have said that, of course... > Henk

    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment...

    - We are the United States of Amnesia, which is encouraged by a media that has no desire to tell us the truth about anything, serving their corporate masters who have other plans to dominate us.

    Gore Vidal

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 09:00:14 2023
    <g> Never met someone like you before, Marc. I really wish you luck. You'll need it, lots of it. This is a goodbye.

    Henk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Thu Jan 26 09:00:03 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 4:21:52 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 12:08:50 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment. In my country the BBC has a strong NATO bias. All one can do is identify the particular bias and filter your interpretation accordingly. And use parallel sources. I flip between Al
    Jazeera and Euronews most of the time to get different perspectives.
    I agree with you about Al Jazeera. It is refreshing. YT can also be informative. The sheer number of biased accounts gives a more reliable picture of a situation. Isn't there a maxim that says a larger number of witnesses gives a better picture of a
    situation?

    Yet, I still follow the official media too. I know what war is and I don't like what I see and hear these days. Western politicians far too easily support one of the most corrupt nations in the world with no idea where it will end.

    Concerning those going into politics, read Lampedusa's 1958 novel THE LEOPARD whose main character says:

    - What would the Senate do with me, an inexperienced legislator who lacks the faculty of self-deception, essential requisite for anyone wanting to guide others....Now you need young men, bright young men, with minds asking ‘how’ rather than ‘why,’
    and who are good at masking, at blending, I should say, their personal interests with vague public ideals.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Thu Jan 26 09:07:29 2023
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 18:04:22 UTC+1:
    <g> Never met someone like you before, Marc. I really wish you luck. You'll need it, lots of it. This is a goodbye.

    Henk

    Whatever Henk.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Jan 26 09:06:15 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 8:30:43 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:

    Is YT available to citizens in Russia,
    India and China?

    YT is blocked in China, however many
    manage to work around it by using a
    VPN. Dunno about India. Russians
    do not need YT, the reality show is
    running right there under their very
    own eyes.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Thu Jan 26 09:25:12 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 9:04:22 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    <g> Never met someone like you before, Marc.

    I really wish you luck. You'll
    need it, lots of it.

    "Luck" won't help him a bit.
    He needs more haloperidol.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Thu Jan 26 09:33:25 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 18:25:15 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 9:04:22 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    <g> Never met someone like you before, Marc.

    I really wish you luck. You'll
    need it, lots of it.
    "Luck" won't help him a bit.
    He needs more haloperidol.

    dk

    Stop hating yourself and projecting on me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Jan 26 09:55:02 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 9:04:12 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 4:21:52 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 12:08:50 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    Yes, a lot of the official media are part of the establishment. In my country the BBC has a strong NATO bias. All one can do is identify the particular bias and filter your interpretation accordingly. And use parallel sources. I flip between Al
    Jazeera and Euronews most of the time to get different perspectives.
    I agree with you about Al Jazeera. It is refreshing. YT can also be informative. The sheer number of biased accounts gives a more reliable picture of a situation. Isn't there a maxim that says a larger number of witnesses gives a better picture of a
    situation?

    Yet, I still follow the official media too. I know what war is and I don't like what I see and hear these days. Western politicians far too easily support one of the most corrupt nations in the world with no idea where it will end.
    Concerning those going into politics, read Lampedusa's 1958 novel THE LEOPARD whose main character says:

    - What would the Senate do with me, an inexperienced legislator who lacks the faculty of self-deception, essential requisite for anyone wanting to guide others....Now you need young men, bright young men, with minds asking ‘how’ rather than ‘why,
    and who are good at masking, at blending, I should say, their personal interests with vague public ideals.

    (2023 Y. upload):

    "Politicians Should Wear Sponsor Jackets So We Know Who Owns Them"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 26 10:04:07 2023
    Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 18:25:15 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 9:04:22 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    <g> Never met someone like you before, Marc.

    I really wish you luck. You'll
    need it, lots of it.
    "Luck" won't help him a bit.
    He needs more haloperidol.

    Perhaps. I trust that he is in good hands.

    Henk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Jan 26 10:41:53 2023
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 17:55:05 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    "Politicians Should Wear Sponsor Jackets So We Know Who Owns Them"

    How many jackets can you wear at once?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Jan 26 13:35:26 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 9:33:27 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2023 um 18:25:15 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 9:04:22 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
    <g> Never met someone like you before, Marc.

    I really wish you luck. You'll
    need it, lots of it.
    "Luck" won't help him a bit.
    He needs more haloperidol.

    Stop hating yourself
    and projecting on me.

    !!! ROTFL !!!

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sat Jan 28 22:24:56 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 10:41:56 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 17:55:05 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    "Politicians Should Wear Sponsor
    Jackets So We Know Who Owns
    Them"

    How many jackets can you wear at
    once?

    https://www.facebook.com/GuinnessWorldRecords/videos/most-t-shirts-worn-at-once-guinness-world-records/676577396276965/

    Sorry I could not find an exact number
    for jackets. I suppose ne can probably
    extrapolate. Assume 1 jacket equals
    8 to 10 shirts.

    dk.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sat Jan 28 22:38:30 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 10:41:56 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 17:55:05 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    "Politicians Should Wear Sponsor
    Jackets So We Know Who Owns
    Them"

    How many jackets can you wear at
    once?

    https://www.facebook.com/GuinnessWorldRecords/videos/most-t-shirts-worn-at-once-guinness-world-records/676577396276965/

    Sorry I could not find an exact number
    for jackets. I suppose we can probably
    extrapolate. Assume 1 jacket equals
    8 to 10 shirts.

    dk.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Feb 1 04:16:23 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 10:36:10 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:03:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 25. Januar 2023 um 08:26:39 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:58:07 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    You are funny. Haaretz is far-left and nothing, really
    nothing, suggests a rightwards trend within Haaretz.
    You haven't been reading it for 50+ years, have you?

    But you clearly like to pontificate about stuff you
    know nothing about.
    But we all you know are paranoid.
    Still better than schizo.
    Do you know who Gideon Levy is? You remind me of him.
    You remind me of sauerkraut.
    Yediot Aharonot is "more middle ground" as far as I know,
    but still left-leaning.
    50 years ago it was considered center-right, even more so
    than the JP. Do you read/speak/understand Hebrew? Do
    you watch Israeli TV? Where do you buy your gas?
    You seem to have no idea of what "right" or "left" even
    means; you also seem to be preoccupied with the "far-right",
    never did I hear anything from you about the "far-left" in
    Israel or the USA or anywhere else.
    "Left" and "right" mean different things in different countries.

    Do you understand the concept of "nuance"? What the US
    calls "left" would barely be considered "center" in many
    European countries. What the US calls "right" would be
    considered lunatic extreme right in many Europen countries.
    Israel tends to the opposite, all the standard political labels
    tend to be "leftier" than elsewhere.
    What a joke you are... Your remarks, just as well as all the antisemitic remarks in the recent thread about Wisse's essay,
    Can you point out a single antisemitic remark I ever made?
    Disagreeing with a bigoted retarded Canadian shtetl girl
    does not equate to anti-semitism.
    give quite a good idea, about why Israel is trending
    rightwards (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing as
    Did I ever say it was "bad"? Can you point to chapter
    and verse?
    you believe) and why Netanyahu is actually needed.
    That is highly debatable, considering that more than
    half of Israel's citizens did not vote for him. Ofc you
    know better than anyone else, Biden, Trump, Putin,
    Xi, the Pope and Netanyahu included.

    If you believe so strongly Netanyahu is "needed",
    why don't you move to Israel so you can vote for
    him, or whomever else you believe is "needed"?

    Incidentally, the mindset you promote sounds
    very much like Nazi Germany: Netanyahu (a
    strong, dictatorial "leader") is "needed", just
    as Adolf, Benito, Xi, Mao and Vladimir were
    "needed". Different names, same concept.

    I don't like to publish information gleaned
    from private communications, however
    since you already leaked a fragment of
    our private conversation, I will make an
    exception and mention you stated Ben
    Gurion was an idiot. You clearly need
    more Haloperidol than all the world's
    supply.

    FWIW: I didn't accuse you of being an antisemite, I
    think I said that you sounded like an antisemite,
    An exceedingly fine distinction?
    which you really do wrt Netanyahu
    Are you implying more than half of
    Israel's voters who did not vote for
    him are anti-semites? Is one not
    allowed to dislike an Israel PM
    without being called "anti-semite"?
    and the "rightwing" Israeli government,
    So in your view one is not allowed to
    use descriptive language without
    being accused of vile intentions?

    One trait you share with Herman is
    that you read intent between lines,
    while completely ignoring the text.
    and Rabbis and what not.
    So what? How is disliking the clergy
    anti-semitic? Are we all expected to
    lick their boots and suck up to them
    in order to prove we are good Jews?
    Geez!
    Note I said "your remarks" and then
    started talking about "antisemitic
    remarks" from other people.
    An exceedingly fine distinction.
    If you have any doubts about the
    remarks of Andy and Henk being
    antisemitic,
    There is certainly a case to be made
    that Andy, Henk, Herman and others
    have occasionally stated opinions
    that can be described as social or
    cultural anti-semitism. I intend to
    address the matter in a separate
    post.
    go to some Jewish Organization
    that actually deals with defining
    antisemitism and ask them.
    Do you really think the son of
    death camp survivors needs
    to be "educated" about anti-
    semitism by some fucking
    "organization"? This would be
    exceedingly condescending
    coming from anyone. Coming
    from a kraut it is downright
    insulting.

    Friendly reminder:

    Lesson for today: Don't use your relatives that perished during the shoah to lend yourself credibility. You are a fucking baffoon. A god damn disgrace.

    Another lesson (maybe for tomorrow): Just because you are a Jew does not mean that you know more about matters concerning Israel than a German. You really are racist.


    I request an immediate apology.
    What's remarkable is that instead of
    talking tacheles/doing some straight
    talking with Andy and Henk,
    Don't worry, Andy, Henk and I can
    settle things without your help.
    all you have on your mind is Marc S,
    How so? You are relentlessly
    attacking me for not living up
    to your notions of Iraeliness
    and Jewishness. Why are you
    so obsessed with Israeli and
    Jewish matters?
    Netanyahu, and Frank Berger
    and Rabbis.
    Stating one's disagreement
    about various matters does
    not amount to "obsession".
    You are a god damn disgrace.
    ?!? To whom ?!?
    If you actually wanted to do
    good for Israel and the Jewish
    people, you would be fighting
    antisemitism,
    You don't think I am?
    and not the people defending
    Israel from it.
    ROTFL! Such a great defender.
    You are completely deranged
    to believe anyone who does
    not like Netanyahu is against
    Israel. Taking this argument
    at face value would imply
    more than half of Israel's
    population are anti-semites.
    Now go argue with your cats.
    One never argues with one's cats.
    I have don't always have time
    for your nonsense.
    ROTFL !!!

    dk

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  • From Craig Wallace@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sun Feb 5 16:14:37 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:28:31 PM UTC+13, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?
    What if much of the current Climate Crisis is in fact to hide the fact that Middle Eastern oil's reserves are imminently going to run out but nobody can face telling that fact? The implications are too mind-blowing shortly?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Craig Wallace on Sun Feb 5 22:46:11 2023
    On 2/5/2023 7:14 PM, Craig Wallace wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:28:31 PM UTC+13, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?
    What if much of the current Climate Crisis is in fact to hide the fact that Middle Eastern oil's reserves are imminently going to run out but nobody can face telling that fact? The implications are too mind-blowing shortly?

    What if you have a rectum where your brain should be?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Wed Mar 8 10:30:51 2023
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations"
    posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real
    interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake
    of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China. Just a
    few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal
    contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Wed Mar 8 14:50:20 2023
    On 3/8/2023 1:30 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" >>>> posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real
    interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake
    of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China. Just a
    few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    Well, I think you more likely right than Ray, but if history teaches us anything is that we can't predict it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Wed Mar 8 12:24:30 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 10:30:56 AM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" >>> posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real
    interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake
    of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China. Just
    a few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    (Y. upload):

    "Why China Will Not Last This Decade - Peter Zeihan"

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Mar 8 16:44:51 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    (2023 Y. upload(:

    "How to Prevent a Cold War With China | Amanpour and Company"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Wed Mar 8 16:18:34 2023
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 05:30:56 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" >>> posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real
    interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake
    of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China. Just
    a few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    Any contradictions will indeed limit them, but totalitarianism has ways of overcoming any trifles. I cannot see anyone other than the US challenging them for world supremacy in military strength. Russia (other than its nuclear potential) is really a
    spent force.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Wed Mar 8 17:19:39 2023
    On 3/8/23 4:18 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 05:30:56 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" >>>>> posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real
    interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake >>>>> of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China. Just
    a few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal
    contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    Any contradictions will indeed limit them, but totalitarianism has ways of overcoming any trifles. I cannot see anyone other than the US challenging them for world supremacy in military strength. Russia (other than its nuclear potential) is really a
    spent force.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    I think you're certainly right about the US being the only nation with
    enough might to challenge them in military strength (and I'd certainly
    bet on us and give odds), but more importantly there is needed a an
    agreement among free nations (the Anglosphere and willing allies) to
    oppose their drive for hegemony.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Wed Mar 8 18:18:18 2023
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 12:19:44 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 3/8/23 4:18 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 05:30:56 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" >>>>> posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real >>>>> interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake >>>>> of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China.
    Just a few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal
    contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    Any contradictions will indeed limit them, but totalitarianism has ways of overcoming any trifles. I cannot see anyone other than the US challenging them for world supremacy in military strength. Russia (other than its nuclear potential) is really a
    spent force.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I think you're certainly right about the US being the only nation with enough might to challenge them in military strength (and I'd certainly
    bet on us and give odds), but more importantly there is needed a an agreement among free nations (the Anglosphere and willing allies) to
    oppose their drive for hegemony.

    Bob Harper

    From recent reading, even the Chinese move against Taiwan is not certain - yet. Maybe 5 years? Also true that if an agreement is reached between US, UK, France (maybe), with Australia as assist, then the Chinese have a lot of catching up to do.
    Interestingly, Russia, post-Putin, will be a big question mark, especially in regard to how China and Russia co-operate or not, but this will not resolve for a decade or two methinks.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Mar 8 19:06:30 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    Is history repeating itself?:

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.history.early-modern/c/SQ_1rkA6bRk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Mar 8 21:21:12 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 4:44:54 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:

    "How to Prevent a Cold War With China | Amanpour and Company"

    How many wars have Amanpour and Company prevented
    so far? Do they have any demonstrable practical experience?

    Martha Stewart was at least capable of slicing onions in
    front of a camera.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Mar 8 21:22:33 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 4:44:54 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:

    "How to Prevent a Cold War With China | Amanpour and Company"

    This is an expired topic. The "war with China" has been cold for
    quite some time. The real issue now is how to preveny a hot war.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Mar 8 21:23:48 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 7:06:32 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:

    Is history repeating itself?:

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.history.early-modern/c/SQ_1rkA6bRk

    Why are you so obsessed with counterpoint?
    History does not repeat itself any more than
    Bruckner.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Wed Mar 8 22:13:33 2023
    Bob Harper schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 02:19:44 UTC+1:
    On 3/8/23 4:18 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 05:30:56 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" >>>>> posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real >>>>> interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake >>>>> of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China.
    Just a few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal
    contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    Any contradictions will indeed limit them, but totalitarianism has ways of overcoming any trifles. I cannot see anyone other than the US challenging them for world supremacy in military strength. Russia (other than its nuclear potential) is really a
    spent force.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I think you're certainly right about the US being the only nation with enough might to challenge them in military strength (and I'd certainly
    bet on us and give odds), but more importantly there is needed a an agreement among free nations (the Anglosphere and willing allies) to
    oppose their drive for hegemony.

    First and foremost there is needed an agreement among free nations to fight the climate change, and ofc racists and fascists such as Trump and Netanyahu, and maybe also still covid, and not to forget: all the conservatives as well.

    We will also need to fight to have more transgender-people in the army; and we also need more health officials like Rachel Levine and Maggie de Block - someone get Sam Brinton back into office in sha Allah!

    Only then will we be able to fight in unity against the threat of china!


    Bob Harper

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Wed Mar 8 23:10:30 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 08:08:10 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 11:02:02 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    “Most people are other people. Their thoughts are
    someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their
    passions a quotation.” - Oscar Wilde
    How true of you!

    You are a bouillabaisse of Adorno and Netanyahu
    with an added bit of Prussian spices.

    dk

    “You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit.” - Oscar Wilde

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Oscar on Wed Mar 8 22:24:06 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:08:54 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:33, Andy Evans wrote:

    <snip>

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    We have reached Peak China. It is a nation in decline.

    As far as one can tell, China has been "in decline"
    for 5000 years. I am willing to sign a notarized
    affidavit it will still be "in decline" 5000 years
    from now.

    You need a brain transplant.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Mar 8 23:01:59 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 04:06:32 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?
    Is history repeating itself?:

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.history.early-modern/c/SQ_1rkA6bRk

    “Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.” - Oscar Wilde

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Mar 8 23:08:07 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 11:02:02 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    “Most people are other people. Their thoughts are
    someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their
    passions a quotation.” - Oscar Wilde

    How true of you!

    You are a bouillabaisse of Adorno and Netanyahu
    with an added bit of Prussian spices.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Mar 8 23:33:21 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 08:17:18 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 11:02:02 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 04:06:32 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is
    yet to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?
    Is history repeating itself?:

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.history.early-modern/c/SQ_1rkA6bRk
    “Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.” - Oscar Wilde
    - I am a transmitter, rather than an original thinker.

    Confucius

    Poor you... and poor us.

    If you would at least transmit something original... something unoriginal but rational would be fine as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Mar 8 23:17:15 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 11:02:02 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 04:06:32 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is
    yet to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?
    Is history repeating itself?:

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.history.early-modern/c/SQ_1rkA6bRk
    “Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.” - Oscar Wilde

    - I am a transmitter, rather than an original thinker.

    Confucius

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Mar 8 23:34:43 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 08:33:23 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 08:17:18 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 11:02:02 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 04:06:32 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India
    is yet to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?
    Is history repeating itself?:

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.history.early-modern/c/SQ_1rkA6bRk
    “Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.” - Oscar Wilde
    - I am a transmitter, rather than an original thinker.

    Confucius
    Poor you... and poor us.

    If you would at least transmit something original... something unoriginal but rational would be fine as well.

    `*something unoriginal but sensible / reasonable would be fine as well

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 9 10:18:15 2023
    On 3/8/23 10:24 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:08:54 AM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:33, Andy Evans wrote:

    <snip>

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    We have reached Peak China. It is a nation in decline.

    As far as one can tell, China has been "in decline"
    for 5000 years. I am willing to sign a notarized
    affidavit it will still be "in decline" 5000 years
    from now.

    You need a brain transplant.

    dk

    You need a reading comprehension course :).

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Thu Mar 9 10:21:07 2023
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 10:16:13 AM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:

    Makes a lot of sense. I think time is against China,
    which makes them quite dangerous in the near term.

    On what information do you base your conclusions?

    What assumptions are you making? Where did you
    buy your crystal ball, and what is the warranty?

    Most important, does time work only against China?
    I ask the question .....

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Mar 9 10:38:35 2023
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 2:16:58 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 06:31:32 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    - Slowly but surely, much in the style of Germany under Hitler in
    the 1930s, the Modi government over two elected terms has
    nearly the entire Indian media in its pocket. So much so that
    when the government has ordered taking down of tweets and
    youtube postings on and of the documentary, the irony of the
    moment is almost lost.

    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need
    good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and
    more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of
    the truth.

    It is not obvious that things were any better 10, 20, 50, or 100 years
    ago. Humankind has a tendency to embellish the past, or at least to
    ignore events that did not play out for a longer time. And nowadays
    almost anyone with a smartphone can become a de facto journalist.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Thu Mar 9 10:16:08 2023
    On 3/8/23 6:18 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 12:19:44 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 3/8/23 4:18 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 05:30:56 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote: >>>>>>> As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" >>>>>>> posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real >>>>>>> interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake >>>>>>> of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China.
    Just a few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal
    contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    Any contradictions will indeed limit them, but totalitarianism has ways of overcoming any trifles. I cannot see anyone other than the US challenging them for world supremacy in military strength. Russia (other than its nuclear potential) is really a
    spent force.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I think you're certainly right about the US being the only nation with
    enough might to challenge them in military strength (and I'd certainly
    bet on us and give odds), but more importantly there is needed a an
    agreement among free nations (the Anglosphere and willing allies) to
    oppose their drive for hegemony.

    Bob Harper

    From recent reading, even the Chinese move against Taiwan is not certain - yet. Maybe 5 years? Also true that if an agreement is reached between US, UK, France (maybe), with Australia as assist, then the Chinese have a lot of catching up to do.
    Interestingly, Russia, post-Putin, will be a big question mark, especially in regard to how China and Russia co-operate or not, but this will not resolve for a decade or two methinks.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Makes a lot of sense. I think time is against China, which makes them
    quite dangerous in the near term. Hence, vigilance is necessary. I
    imagine Putin's Russia will be more of a drag on, than an assistance to,
    the Chinese, who are probably realizing that now.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 9 10:52:40 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 19:38:38 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 2:16:58 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 06:31:32 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    - Slowly but surely, much in the style of Germany under Hitler in
    the 1930s, the Modi government over two elected terms has
    nearly the entire Indian media in its pocket. So much so that
    when the government has ordered taking down of tweets and
    youtube postings on and of the documentary, the irony of the
    moment is almost lost.

    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need
    good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and
    more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of
    the truth.

    It is not obvious that things were any better 10, 20, 50, or 100 years
    ago.

    Certainly one can say this about music.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 9 11:46:43 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 20:27:45 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 10:52:42 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 19:38:38 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 2:16:58 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 06:31:32 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    - Slowly but surely, much in the style of Germany under Hitler in the 1930s, the Modi government over two elected terms has
    nearly the entire Indian media in its pocket. So much so that
    when the government has ordered taking down of tweets and
    youtube postings on and of the documentary, the irony of the moment is almost lost.

    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need
    good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and
    more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of
    the truth.

    It is not obvious that things were any
    better 10, 20, 50, or 100 years ago.

    Certainly one can say this about music.
    Without clearly calibrated metrics and
    measurement protocols, all "better" or
    "worse" statements can only be taken
    as metaphorical, regardless of domain.

    dk

    Yet there are occasions in which people can see clearly that the better soccer team - because of measurements. Sometimes measurements are just worthless.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 9 11:27:42 2023
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 10:52:42 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 19:38:38 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 2:16:58 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 06:31:32 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    - Slowly but surely, much in the style of Germany under Hitler in the 1930s, the Modi government over two elected terms has
    nearly the entire Indian media in its pocket. So much so that
    when the government has ordered taking down of tweets and
    youtube postings on and of the documentary, the irony of the
    moment is almost lost.

    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need
    good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and
    more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of
    the truth.

    It is not obvious that things were any
    better 10, 20, 50, or 100 years ago.

    Certainly one can say this about music.

    Without clearly calibrated metrics and
    measurement protocols, all "better" or
    "worse" statements can only be taken
    as metaphorical, regardless of domain.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 9 11:49:38 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 20:46:45 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 20:27:45 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 10:52:42 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 19:38:38 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 2:16:58 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 06:31:32 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:

    - Slowly but surely, much in the style of Germany under Hitler in
    the 1930s, the Modi government over two elected terms has
    nearly the entire Indian media in its pocket. So much so that when the government has ordered taking down of tweets and youtube postings on and of the documentary, the irony of the moment is almost lost.

    Unfortunately this is happening in many, many countries. We need good journalists more than ever, but their job becomes more and
    more dangerous as the world plunges into a kind of darkness of
    the truth.

    It is not obvious that things were any
    better 10, 20, 50, or 100 years ago.

    Certainly one can say this about music.
    Without clearly calibrated metrics and
    measurement protocols, all "better" or
    "worse" statements can only be taken
    as metaphorical, regardless of domain.

    dk
    Yet there are occasions in which people can see clearly that the better soccer team - because of measurements. Sometimes measurements are just worthless.
    *better soccer team lost

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 9 12:40:42 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 21:20:35 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:49:41 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 20:46:45 UTC+1:

    Without clearly calibrated metrics and
    measurement protocols, all "better" or
    "worse" statements can only be taken
    as metaphorical, regardless of domain.

    Yet there are occasions in which people
    can see clearly that the better soccer team
    This applies only to short time span events.
    It doesn't work across decades or centuries.

    dk

    100% certain?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 9 12:20:32 2023
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:49:41 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 20:46:45 UTC+1:

    Without clearly calibrated metrics and
    measurement protocols, all "better" or
    "worse" statements can only be taken
    as metaphorical, regardless of domain.

    Yet there are occasions in which people
    can see clearly that the better soccer team

    This applies only to short time span events.
    It doesn't work across decades or centuries.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 9 12:41:25 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 21:40:44 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 21:20:35 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:49:41 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 20:46:45 UTC+1:

    Without clearly calibrated metrics and
    measurement protocols, all "better" or
    "worse" statements can only be taken
    as metaphorical, regardless of domain.

    Yet there are occasions in which people
    can see clearly that the better soccer team
    This applies only to short time span events.
    It doesn't work across decades or centuries.

    dk
    100% certain?

    in all cases?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 9 12:45:27 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 21:41:27 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 21:40:44 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 21:20:35 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:49:41 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. März 2023 um 20:46:45 UTC+1:

    Without clearly calibrated metrics and
    measurement protocols, all "better" or
    "worse" statements can only be taken
    as metaphorical, regardless of domain.

    Yet there are occasions in which people
    can see clearly that the better soccer team
    This applies only to short time span events.
    It doesn't work across decades or centuries.

    dk
    100% certain?
    in all cases?

    Seems as if you believe in fantasies then... and yet you mock Rabbis?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Thu Mar 9 16:20:15 2023
    On 2023-03-09 18:16:08 +0000, Bob Harper said:

    On 3/8/23 6:18 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 12:19:44 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal
    contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    Any contradictions will indeed limit them, but totalitarianism has ways >>>> of overcoming any trifles. I cannot see anyone other than the US
    challenging them for world supremacy in military strength. Russia
    (other than its nuclear potential) is really a spent force.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I think you're certainly right about the US being the only nation with
    enough might to challenge them in military strength (and I'd certainly
    bet on us and give odds), but more importantly there is needed a an
    agreement among free nations (the Anglosphere and willing allies) to
    oppose their drive for hegemony.

    Bob Harper

    From recent reading, even the Chinese move against Taiwan is not
    certain - yet. Maybe 5 years? Also true that if an agreement is reached
    between US, UK, France (maybe), with Australia as assist, then the
    Chinese have a lot of catching up to do. Interestingly, Russia,
    post-Putin, will be a big question mark, especially in regard to how
    China and Russia co-operate or not, but this will not resolve for a
    decade or two methinks.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Makes a lot of sense. I think time is against China, which makes them
    quite dangerous in the near term. Hence, vigilance is necessary. I
    imagine Putin's Russia will be more of a drag on, than an assistance
    to, the Chinese, who are probably realizing that now.

    Bob Harper

    China, having gone through a boom in the last 20 years in exporting
    goods, is seeing a pushback from the US. They probably are seeing the
    writing on the wall with manufacturing technology being brought
    elsewhere, like Vietnam, India and even the US itself. They have a
    long lasting stick in their craw about Taiwan.

    The US is getting deeper involved in a probably never-ending proxy war
    with Russia in Ukraine, at least that's what the military hopes for.
    We're shooting down a Chinese balloon with a missile that costs as much
    as 150 single family houses, but we look for "affordable housing" for
    our homeless.

    Russia is using their old playbook of throwing a million men at the
    problem. It's worked in the past.

    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Thu Mar 9 14:13:40 2023
    On 3/9/23 1:20 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-03-09 18:16:08 +0000, Bob Harper said:

    On 3/8/23 6:18 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, 9 March 2023 at 12:19:44 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal
    contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper

    Any contradictions will indeed limit them, but totalitarianism has
    ways of overcoming any trifles. I cannot see anyone other than the
    US challenging them for world supremacy in military strength.
    Russia (other than its nuclear potential) is really a spent force.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I think you're certainly right about the US being the only nation with >>>> enough might to challenge them in military strength (and I'd certainly >>>> bet on us and give odds), but more importantly there is needed a an
    agreement among free nations (the Anglosphere and willing allies) to
    oppose their drive for hegemony.

    Bob Harper

    From recent reading, even the Chinese move against Taiwan is not
    certain - yet. Maybe 5 years? Also true that if an agreement is
    reached between US, UK, France (maybe), with Australia as assist,
    then the Chinese have a lot of catching up to do. Interestingly,
    Russia, post-Putin, will be a big question mark, especially in regard
    to how China and Russia co-operate or not, but this will not resolve
    for a decade or two methinks.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Makes a lot of sense. I think time is against China, which makes them
    quite dangerous in the near term. Hence, vigilance is necessary. I
    imagine Putin's Russia will be more of a drag on, than an assistance
    to, the Chinese, who are probably realizing that now.

    Bob Harper

    China, having gone through a boom in the last 20 years in exporting
    goods, is seeing a pushback from the US.  They probably are seeing the writing on the wall with manufacturing technology being brought
    elsewhere, like Vietnam, India and even the US itself.  They have a long lasting stick in their craw about Taiwan.

    The US is getting deeper involved in a probably never-ending proxy war
    with Russia in Ukraine, at least that's what the military hopes for.
    We're shooting down a Chinese balloon with a missile that costs as much
    as 150 single family houses, but we look for "affordable housing" for
    our homeless.

    Russia is using their old playbook of throwing a million men at the problem.  It's worked in the past.

    -Owen

    It could, I suppose, but at some point they'll have to start using
    Russian boys who come from better off Moscow/St. Petersburg families,
    and at that point I wo0uld expect some excrement to hit the air
    circulation device. Also, the arrival of better weaponry from the West
    will make it much more dangerous for those million men attacks. A
    terrible thought, to see so many die needlessly, but it's on Vlad.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Thu Mar 9 14:12:35 2023
    On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 10:16:13 AM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:

    I think time is against China, which makes
    them quite dangerous in the near term.

    Time works agains everyone. Sooner or
    later everyone dies. The same applies to
    nations, states, and governments. Sooner
    or later, empires collapse and new empires
    replace them.

    According to various pundits, China has
    been "in decline" for 5000 years. I will
    sign a notarized affidavit it will still be
    "in decline" for another 5000 years.

    Get serious.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Mar 9 14:47:04 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    (2023 Y. upload):

    "Is the U.S. Prepared? China, Russia, & the New Era of Great Power Conflict | Amanpour and Company"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Mar 10 13:04:52 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:24:33 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 10:30:56 AM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 1/23/23 3:12 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 09:56:26 UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 23 January 2023 at 18:49:28 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    As a critic, I think it's fair to assess the "international relations" >>> posts on this group thusly: Not a single one has been of any real
    interest, and most are garbage.

    I'm very disappointed with Andy for starting this thread in the wake >>> of the other ongoing troll thread. End of comments.
    I think you're right. Looks like there's no point in discussing world affairs. I'll look for somewhere else to do that.

    Unfortunately a lot of the threads about music are quite boring. Slim pickings here.

    Same old music, still stuck in the 19th century, no variation, it isn't surprising when the same old music is done to death.

    As for the world, it still rotates, but not, for ever. In the meantime, China will get stronger, the USA will disintegrate into several secessional states, while Europe will tiptoe along a hazardous wire of appeasement. Nothing will stop China.
    Just a few thoughts. The world is at a balance point.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Actually, China's coming demographic collapse and the internal contradictions present in totalitarianism will limit them.

    Bob Harper
    (Y. upload):

    "Why China Will Not Last This Decade - Peter Zeihan"

    (2023 Y. upload):

    "Joe Rogan taken aback by shocking forecast about China's fall in next 10 Years | Joe Rogan"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Fri Mar 10 23:10:20 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 6:18:21 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

    From recent reading, even the Chinese move
    against Taiwan is not certain - yet. Maybe 5
    years?

    As they say, it is a matter of "when", not "if".

    Also true that if an agreement is reached
    between US, UK, France (maybe), with
    Australia as assist, then the Chinese
    have a lot of catching up to do.

    In what sense? Western nations have lost
    several wars in Indo-China. Do you think
    any of them has appetite for another one?

    Interestingly, Russia, post-Putin, will be a
    big question mark, especially in regard to
    how China and Russia co-operate or not,

    China and Russia have no choice but to
    cooperate. Russia has natural resources
    China does not have but needs. China
    has financial and industrial resources
    Russia does not have but needs. This
    is a trategic issue that has nothing to
    do with how much Vlad likes Xi or not.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Mar 10 23:33:27 2023
    On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 18:10:23 UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 6:18:21 PM UTC-8, raymond....gmail.com wrote:

    From recent reading, even the Chinese move
    against Taiwan is not certain - yet. Maybe 5
    years?
    As they say, it is a matter of "when", not "if".

    Of course.

    Also true that if an agreement is reached
    between US, UK, France (maybe), with
    Australia as assist, then the Chinese
    have a lot of catching up to do.
    In what sense? Western nations have lost
    several wars in Indo-China. Do you think
    any of them has appetite for another one?

    I was only putting forward a scenario should China ever became an aggressor both financially and military wise. The idea of the West attacking China is ridiculous.

    Interestingly, Russia, post-Putin, will be a
    big question mark, especially in regard to
    how China and Russia co-operate or not,
    China and Russia have no choice but to
    cooperate. Russia has natural resources
    China does not have but needs. China
    has financial and industrial resources
    Russia does not have but needs. This
    is a trategic issue that has nothing to
    do with how much Vlad likes Xi or not.

    China has 1.4 billion people, with Russia 135 million. I'd be worried long term if I was Russian.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Sat Mar 11 00:03:48 2023
    On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 11:33:30 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 18:10:23 UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 6:18:21 PM UTC-8, raymond....gmail.com wrote:

    From recent reading, even the Chinese move
    against Taiwan is not certain - yet. Maybe 5
    years?

    As they say, it is a matter of "when", not "if".

    Of course.

    Also true that if an agreement is reached
    between US, UK, France (maybe), with
    Australia as assist, then the Chinese
    have a lot of catching up to do.

    In what sense? Western nations have lost
    several wars in Indo-China. Do you think
    any of them has appetite for another one?

    I was only putting forward a scenario should
    China ever became an aggressor both financially
    and military wise. The idea of the West attacking
    China is ridiculous.

    Of course it is. It happened before however.

    Apparently the knowledge of past history is
    never enough to make people leran from it.

    Interestingly, Russia, post-Putin, will be a
    big question mark, especially in regard to
    how China and Russia co-operate or not,

    China and Russia have no choice but to
    cooperate. Russia has natural resources
    China does not have but needs. China
    has financial and industrial resources
    Russia does not have but needs. This
    is a trategic issue that has nothing to
    do with how much Vlad likes Xi or not.

    China has 1.4 billion people, with Russia
    135 million. I'd be worried long term if I
    was Russian.

    Worry about what? Shortage of vodka?

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Mar 22 19:18:26 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    https://news.yahoo.com/xi-jinping-vladimir-putin-pledge-162946242.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Mar 23 14:13:42 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:31 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    Since the invasion of Ukraine we have seen a shift in power blocs. Russia and China are getting closer, and bringing with them a number of African countries, the latest being S.Africa with joint military operations with Russia and China. India is yet
    to show its hand more clearly.

    Some of this is because of energy dependency, especially in the case of Russia. Some is because of economic dependency in the case of China. Meanwhile the US and Europe remain aligned together with the Saudi oil states.

    What are your thoughts on this going forwards?

    (2023 Y. upload):

    "The Western World now faces a cold war with China | Fred Pawle"

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