I've been really enjoying his recordings of Finnissy's 'epic' piano pieces which seem closer in spirit to Sorabji than to, like, inner cities, etudes karnatiques, catalogue d'oiseaux (other 'worldbuilding' piano stuff i've been listening to), though ican imagine both sorabji and finnissy not embracing the comparison...
But I'm even more excited about his writing (essays, conference papers, blog posts):
https://ianpace.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/musicology-is-not-musical-pr/
https://core.ac.uk/reader/29018096
https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/6472/1/Complexity%20as%20Imaginative%20Stimulant%20%282007%29.pdf
He is clearly, rigorously, and thoughtfully Marxist,
Anyone else read this stuff? Or thoughts on Pace recordings, Finnissy or others?
Finnissy and Pace on English Cunts
https://ianpace.wordpress.com/2014/12/03/interview-between-ian-pace-and-michael-finnissy-on-english-country-tunes-february-2009/
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 9:11:39 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:John Tilbury's Statement
Finnissy and Pace on English Cunts
https://ianpace.wordpress.com/2014/12/03/interview-between-ian-pace-and-michael-finnissy-on-english-country-tunes-february-2009/Finnissy's queer rereading of the Hammerklavier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgoodfghmwg&t=845s&ab_channel=ZubinKanga
Dan Leech Wilkinson on related things -- right wingery and freedom of expressionAnd his book
https://challengingperformance.com/the-book-30-1/
Anyone else read this stuff? Or thoughts on Pace recordings, Finnissy or others?
I've been really enjoying his recordings of Finnissy's 'epic' piano pieces which seem closer in spirit to Sorabji than to, like, inner cities, etudes karnatiques, catalogue d'oiseaux (other 'worldbuilding' piano stuff i've been listening to), though ican imagine both sorabji and finnissy not embracing the comparison...
But I'm even more excited about his writing (essays, conference papers, blog posts):
https://ianpace.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/musicology-is-not-musical-pr/
https://core.ac.uk/reader/29018096
https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/6472/1/Complexity%20as%20Imaginative%20Stimulant%20%282007%29.pdf
He is clearly, rigorously, and thoughtfully Marxist,
cheregi schrieb am Montag, 2. Januar 2023 um 21:03:36 UTC+1:i can imagine both sorabji and finnissy not embracing the comparison...
I've been really enjoying his recordings of Finnissy's 'epic' piano pieces which seem closer in spirit to Sorabji than to, like, inner cities, etudes karnatiques, catalogue d'oiseaux (other 'worldbuilding' piano stuff i've been listening to), though
But I'm even more excited about his writing (essays, conference papers, blog posts):
https://ianpace.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/musicology-is-not-musical-pr/
https://core.ac.uk/reader/29018096
https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/6472/1/Complexity%20as%20Imaginative%20Stimulant%20%282007%29.pdf
He is clearly, rigorously, and thoughtfully Marxist,Neither is he, nor are you a Marxist. God damn it, Marx ain't got nothing to do with fucked up idiots like you who fetishize the body of a woman.
You are a mental case, just as ian pace.
To quote Marx: "ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas marxiste."
To quote Marx: "ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas marxiste."
Anyone else read this stuff? Or thoughts on Pace recordings,
Finnissy or others?
Kinda funny how the immediate responses are just wide open,
content-free hostility. Pretty much says it all about RMCR....
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 11:19:34 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:
Kinda funny how the immediate responses are just wide open,
content-free hostility. Pretty much says it all about RMCR....
well, it got off to a good start with Franks pluralisation of "Nons sequitors."
I've been really enjoying his recordings of Finnissy's 'epic' piano pieces which seem closer in spirit to Sorabji than to, like, inner cities, etudes karnatiques, catalogue d'oiseaux (other 'worldbuilding' piano stuff i've been listening to), though ican imagine both sorabji and finnissy not embracing the comparison...
But I'm even more excited about his writing (essays, conference papers, blog posts):of New Music thinks about... even though he is firmly in the New Music world and the academic WAM world he seems to have 'no illusions' or presuppositions (or at least not the same ones I've gotten tired of seeing) around the value of what he is doing.
https://ianpace.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/musicology-is-not-musical-pr/
https://core.ac.uk/reader/29018096
https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/6472/1/Complexity%20as%20Imaginative%20Stimulant%20%282007%29.pdf
He is clearly, rigorously, and thoughtfully Marxist, and from this perspective writes on for example the ideological baggage of historically-informed performance, the politics of and around john cage, and the kinds of interpretive decisions a performer
Anyone else read this stuff? Or thoughts on Pace recordings, Finnissy or others?The chapter on Finnissy in Zubin Kanga's doctorate is worth a read I think
The chapter on Finnissy in Zubin Kanga's doctorate is worth a read I think
In article <18f00789-79d4-4b53-93d8-d7c605455822n@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elirkerry@gmail.com> wrote:
Anyone else read this stuff? Or thoughts on Pace recordings,Not much... overlaps with plenty of stuff I do read & write though....
Finnissy or others?
Regarding the music, I listened to a smattering from Finnissy a
while back... must've been 2020... but nothing really stuck with
me.
In article <tp1nmo$7d9$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
Regarding the music, I listened to a smattering from Finnissy aTangentially, I'll note that Wikipedia includes Richard Barrett
while back... must've been 2020... but nothing really stuck with
me.
among its small "See also" list ending the Finnissy article. Barrett
is someone I've heard much more, since he's active with other
musicians I follow in the improvisation world.
(And my wife insists on mindless evening television to decompress,
during which I saw some actress on a talk show -- can't remember
who, though -- say that Richard Barrett was her favorite composer.
That was a surprising moment.)
In article <tp1nmo$7d9$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
Regarding the music, I listened to a smattering from Finnissy aTangentially, I'll note that Wikipedia includes Richard Barrett
while back... must've been 2020... but nothing really stuck with
me.
among its small "See also" list ending the Finnissy article. Barrett
is someone I've heard much more, since he's active with other
musicians I follow in the improvisation world.
(And my wife insists on mindless evening television to decompress,
during which I saw some actress on a talk show -- can't remember
who, though -- say that Richard Barrett was her favorite composer.
That was a surprising moment.)
(And my wife insists on mindless evening television to decompress,
during which I saw some actress on a talk show -- can't remember
who, though -- say that Richard Barrett was her favorite composer.
That was a surprising moment.)
Op dinsdag 3 januari 2023 om 18:23:15 UTC+1 schreef Todd M. McComb:
(And my wife insists on mindless evening television to decompress,I just listened to Barrett's Tract and Ian Pace performing another pianistic miracle:
during which I saw some actress on a talk show -- can't remember
who, though -- say that Richard Barrett was her favorite composer.
That was a surprising moment.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=h2btolgGuuw
That is the only positive thought that comes to mind in this context. It out-finnissies Finnissy.
Henk
The chapter on Finnissy in Zubin Kanga's doctorate is worth a read I think
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56d6c3d6d51cd4de9d02d5b1/t/5e1e35136bf4cf739d06b4b7/1579038042307/Zubin+Kanga+-+PhD+thesis-compressed.pdf
IIRC, Pace once was a member of RMCR. He was well-informed and informative. Finnissy was his main subject but he also wrote regularly about romantic piano music and piano playing.
Not much... overlaps with plenty of stuff I do read & write though.... Regarding the music, I listened to a smattering from Finnissy awhile back... must've been 2020... but nothing really stuck with
me. IIRC, he's working entirely in 12tet... an outdated system.
[cheregi posting from my work email...]rampant imperialism while living and working in... the u.k.... or when leech-wilkinson diagnoses conservatives as embodying too strongly the supposedly naturally-selected-for trait of rejecting newness and change, in contrast to his enlightened liberals..
On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 5:27:18 AM UTC-5, Mandryka wrote:
The chapter on Finnissy in Zubin Kanga's doctorate is worth a read I think
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56d6c3d6d51cd4de9d02d5b1/t/5e1e35136bf4cf739d06b4b7/1579038042307/Zubin+Kanga+-+PhD+thesis-compressed.pdf
thanks for the reading material. broadly it's nice to see people in the academy get angry about stuff that also makes me angry, but it's also kind of funny for example when tilbury proudly proclaims refusal to play shows in the u.s. on grounds of
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:06:49 PM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:s not necessarily subject to being in or out of date... in other words 'playing beethoven in 12tet' may be out of date, sure, but...
IIRC, Pace once was a member of RMCR. He was well-informed and informative. Finnissy was his main subject but he also wrote regularly about romantic piano music and piano playing.amazing! with who was it Daniel-Ben Pienaar and maybe Jonathan Powell iirc that makes three interesting pianists possibly driven off of here by as Todd puts it 'wide open, content free hostility'?
On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 12:13:00 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
i think i know what you mean by 'outdated' (well, what do you mean!) but i'm not sure i agree, i think as long as one acknowledges for example the unpleasant tension of a supposedly consonant harmony in 12tet, and makes music with this in mind, then it'Not much... overlaps with plenty of stuff I do read & write though.... Regarding the music, I listened to a smattering from Finnissy awhile back... must've been 2020... but nothing really stuck with
me. IIRC, he's working entirely in 12tet... an outdated system.
On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 2:30:02 PM UTC-5, Ellie Kerry wrote:rampant imperialism while living and working in... the u.k.... or when leech-wilkinson diagnoses conservatives as embodying too strongly the supposedly naturally-selected-for trait of rejecting newness and change, in contrast to his enlightened liberals..
[cheregi posting from my work email...]
On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 5:27:18 AM UTC-5, Mandryka wrote:
The chapter on Finnissy in Zubin Kanga's doctorate is worth a read I think
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56d6c3d6d51cd4de9d02d5b1/t/5e1e35136bf4cf739d06b4b7/1579038042307/Zubin+Kanga+-+PhD+thesis-compressed.pdf
thanks for the reading material. broadly it's nice to see people in the academy get angry about stuff that also makes me angry, but it's also kind of funny for example when tilbury proudly proclaims refusal to play shows in the u.s. on grounds of
it's not necessarily subject to being in or out of date... in other words 'playing beethoven in 12tet' may be out of date, sure, but...On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:06:49 PM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
IIRC, Pace once was a member of RMCR. He was well-informed and informative. Finnissy was his main subject but he also wrote regularly about romantic piano music and piano playing.amazing! with who was it Daniel-Ben Pienaar and maybe Jonathan Powell iirc that makes three interesting pianists possibly driven off of here by as Todd puts it 'wide open, content free hostility'?
On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 12:13:00 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
i think i know what you mean by 'outdated' (well, what do you mean!) but i'm not sure i agree, i think as long as one acknowledges for example the unpleasant tension of a supposedly consonant harmony in 12tet, and makes music with this in mind, thenNot much... overlaps with plenty of stuff I do read & write though.... Regarding the music, I listened to a smattering from Finnissy awhile back... must've been 2020... but nothing really stuck with
me. IIRC, he's working entirely in 12tet... an outdated system.
pace somewhere talks about the audible dimension to the gradual process of canonization of various 20th-century avant garde composers (carter, feldman, i forget who else), where like certain dissonances or disjunctures or surprising moments writteninto the score are increasingly smoothed over by performers so the music becomes more and more 'comforting' rather than 'destabilizing'. and he talks about making sure not to fall into this kind of trap in his performance of finnissy. there's this sense
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:06:49 PM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
IIRC, Pace once was a member of RMCR. He was well-informed and informative. Finnissy was his main subject but he also wrote regularly about romantic piano music and piano playing.
amazing! with who was it Daniel-Ben Pienaar and maybe Jonathan Powell iirc that makes three interesting pianists possibly driven off of here by as Todd puts it 'wide open, content free hostility'?
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:06:49 PM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
IIRC, Pace once was a member of RMCR. He was well-informed and informative. Finnissy was his main subject but he also wrote regularly about romantic piano music and piano playing.
amazing! with who was it Daniel-Ben Pienaar and maybe Jonathan Powell iirc that makes three interesting pianists possibly driven off of here by as Todd puts it 'wide open, content free hostility'?I have no idea why Pace isn't a member any more. Many left just because they had better things to do. Powell's name doesn't ring a bell. Was he a regular or just a visitor, like Pienaar?
Henk
but it's also kind
of funny for example when tilbury proudly proclaims refusal to play shows
in the u.s. on grounds of rampant imperialism while living and working
in... the u.k....
i think i know what you mean by 'outdated' (well, what do you mean!) but
i'm not sure i agree, i think as long as one acknowledges for example the >unpleasant tension of a supposedly consonant harmony in 12tet, and makes >music with this in mind, then it's not necessarily subject to being in or
out of date... in other words 'playing beethoven in 12tet' may be out of >date, sure, but...
and he talks about making sure not to fall into this kind
of trap in his performance of finnissy. there's this sense of this need to >constantly find new strategies to defamiliarize
... essentially as 'accelerationism' with all its contrasting
connotations?
On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:30:48 PM UTC, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
I think you may be confusing Ian Pace and Nick Hodges.
I’ll tell you one Finnissy thing I’d like you to listen to for me,
the 7 Sacred Motets. It sounds like a pastiche of early music, but
I’m not sure it really is. Someone told me that he’s using scales
from non European music, Arab scales. I’d be interested in what you
make of it.
As I recall, Finnissy himself adopts compositional strategies in
this direction, including making passages physically impossoble to
play.
Nic went on to do very well and is a professor at
Stuttgart conservatiore with 4 kids, several CDs
and commissions, and a busy diary.
I’ve never heard it said that Finnissy makes passages which are
impossible to play.
In article <db8f44c4-75a9-4aaf...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard it said that Finnissy makes passages which are >impossible to play.Perhaps I'm remembering someone else? I'm thinking of impossible
rhythmic subdivisions in piano music that force the performer to
make choices about what actually to strike....
On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 9:56:20 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:Symmetry. You may like Forest, Todd, on Vimeo.
In article <db8f44c4-75a9-4aaf...@googlegroups.com>,Maybe. I've got a book of essays about him so I'll check later.
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
I’ve never heard it said that Finnissy makes passages which are >impossible to play.Perhaps I'm remembering someone else? I'm thinking of impossible
rhythmic subdivisions in piano music that force the performer to
make choices about what actually to strike....
I was wrong to suggest that all his music is determinate. In Forest, for example, each musician has a determinate score, but it's deliberately too complex for any one of them to be sure where the other is. Apparently he got this idea from Crippled
https://vimeo.com/131599736
The audience may be destabilised and enjoy it - like the experience of a roller coaster is destabilising and enjoyable.
I know that Finnissy himself is motivated by a radical political, cultural, moral and sexual agenda. The audience may only get that from the programme notes.
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:06:49 PM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
IIRC, Pace once was a member of RMCR. He was well-informed and informative. Finnissy was his main subject but he also wrote regularly about romantic piano music and piano playing.
amazing! with who was it Daniel-Ben Pienaar and maybe Jonathan Powell iirc that makes three interesting pianists possibly driven off of here by as Todd puts it 'wide open, content free hostility'?I have no idea why Pace isn't a member any more. Many left just because they had better things to do. Powell's name doesn't ring a bell. Was he a regular or just a visitor, like Pienaar?
Henk
In article <tp2brg$j21$3...@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
As I recall, Finnissy himself adopts compositional strategies inIn this direction, while Finnissy's "complexity" is direct, in the
this direction, including making passages physically impossoble to
play.
sense that it's e.g. a lot of very very fast notes, a correspondent
has recommended to me Walter Marchetti, whose "impossibility" is
more conceptual. I have not followed up however, because the
recommended albums (on Alga Marghen) are only on LP... and because
he's mostly a piano composer. But as another tangent here.... And
maybe I can finally take the plunge....
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Have a listen to the new Evan Johnson release on Another Timbre, L'art de toucher le clavecin. There’s virtuosity there, but the results are so different from anything in Finnissy. I enjoy Johnson’s music more than Finnissy’s.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Have a listen to the new Evan Johnson release on Another Timbre,
L'art de toucher le clavecin.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:24:37 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Have a listen to the new Evan Johnson release on Another Timbre, L'art de toucher le clavecin. There’s virtuosity there, but the results are so different from anything in Finnissy. I enjoy Johnson’s music more than Finnissy’s.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
And I prefer Howard Skempton to Even Johnson.
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 8:24:37 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:(paradoxical) level of disregard for listeners, therefore reasserting one's eligibility for membership in privileged class... therefore virtuosity as fetishization of fine control/nuances imperceptible to uninitiated ears. well ideologically it's not any
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,right or based on my readings (and cross-culturally on 'private art musics of feudal aristocracy', cf. especially (ottoman) tanbur or ney, also setar, shakuhachi...) perhaps even more about showing off to one's peers one's level of self-development and
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
another related angle, not virtuosity per se, perhaps virtuosity of craftsmanship: sheer expense and technique of instrument-building (fine silk strings for qin, tanbur's resonant double-bowl, etc), combined with explicit or implicit sense that theplaying of the instrument contributes to cosmic harmony or orderliness i.e. the 'health' of the world - therefore justifies continued oppression of lower classes (well, SOMEBODY'S gotta have the wealth and free time to own and play qin, for the greater
thinking about fitting pace/finnissy 'academic/postmodern virtuosity' into general theory of approaches to virtuosity according to socioeconomic conditions...
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 11:36:44 PM UTC-5, Mandryka wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:24:37 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Have a listen to the new Evan Johnson release on Another Timbre, L'art de toucher le clavecin. There’s virtuosity there, but the results are so different from anything in Finnissy. I enjoy Johnson’s music more than Finnissy’s.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
And I prefer Howard Skempton to Even Johnson.i'll have to listen later but the name is already exciting to me as an enthusiast of baroque french keyboard/lute/viol style/mannerisms... curious to see what the connection here is to that if audible
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:01:10 PM UTC, Ellie Kerry wrote:noticed
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 11:36:44 PM UTC-5, Mandryka wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:24:37 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Have a listen to the new Evan Johnson release on Another Timbre, L'art de toucher le clavecin. There’s virtuosity there, but the results are so different from anything in Finnissy. I enjoy Johnson’s music more than Finnissy’s.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I may have been a bit misleading suggesting that it's virtuoso music -- it was 5.00 a.m. when I posted that, I was bleary eyed still, getting ready to go and catch a train. The virtuosity is there because of the piccolo and violin technique. I justAnd I prefer Howard Skempton to Even Johnson.i'll have to listen later but the name is already exciting to me as an enthusiast of baroque french keyboard/lute/viol style/mannerisms... curious to see what the connection here is to that if audible
Just so you don't go expecting a sort of neo-baroque, here's a comment by the composer from the liner notespieces taken as a whole, is made of layers of ornament upon ornament, flowering elaboration upon flowering elaboration upon flowering elaboration, of very simple, trivial musical figures, until they become something else altogether. The French Baroque
"More broadly speaking, the impetus—and the explanation for the title, taken from a treatise by François Couperin, inapplicable to these harpsichord-less pieces as it is—was the idea of music made of ornament. Each piece, and the set of three
The phrase "fragile things that bloom from within cracks in edifices" seems to me to sum up the music really well.
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.
like, despite all the famous paintings, qin players have historically
not actually been known to bring their (extremely moisture sensitive) >instruments up to remote mountain tops to play alongside nature...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin a
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin
According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/
As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression
that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was
miked too closely.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 8:05:37 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:and (paradoxical) level of disregard for listeners, therefore reasserting one's eligibility for membership in privileged class... therefore virtuosity as fetishization of fine control/nuances imperceptible to uninitiated ears. well ideologically it's not
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:03:21 AM UTC-5, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 8:24:37 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,right or based on my readings (and cross-culturally on 'private art musics of feudal aristocracy', cf. especially (ottoman) tanbur or ney, also setar, shakuhachi...) perhaps even more about showing off to one's peers one's level of self-development
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
playing of the instrument contributes to cosmic harmony or orderliness i.e. the 'health' of the world - therefore justifies continued oppression of lower classes (well, SOMEBODY'S gotta have the wealth and free time to own and play qin, for the greateranother related angle, not virtuosity per se, perhaps virtuosity of craftsmanship: sheer expense and technique of instrument-building (fine silk strings for qin, tanbur's resonant double-bowl, etc), combined with explicit or implicit sense that the
stringed chi’in zither, although she did have some training in Japanese koto music”.The qin also existed in Japan:thinking about fitting pace/finnissy 'academic/postmodern virtuosity' into general theory of approaches to virtuosity according to socioeconomic conditions...like, despite all the famous paintings, qin players have historically not actually been known to bring their (extremely moisture sensitive) instruments up to remote mountain tops to play alongside nature...
- In the article by William P. Malm, in the Encyclopedia Britannica , he states about a novel of same period, Ochikubo Monogatari, “… the sad fate of the heroine is noted by the fact that she was never able to learn how to play the Chinese seven-
https://www.academia.edu/6449493/Music_in_The_Tale_of_Genji_and_The_Heian_Period
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:03:21 AM UTC-5, Ellie Kerry wrote:and (paradoxical) level of disregard for listeners, therefore reasserting one's eligibility for membership in privileged class... therefore virtuosity as fetishization of fine control/nuances imperceptible to uninitiated ears. well ideologically it's not
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 8:24:37 PM UTC-5, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,right or based on my readings (and cross-culturally on 'private art musics of feudal aristocracy', cf. especially (ottoman) tanbur or ney, also setar, shakuhachi...) perhaps even more about showing off to one's peers one's level of self-development
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
playing of the instrument contributes to cosmic harmony or orderliness i.e. the 'health' of the world - therefore justifies continued oppression of lower classes (well, SOMEBODY'S gotta have the wealth and free time to own and play qin, for the greateranother related angle, not virtuosity per se, perhaps virtuosity of craftsmanship: sheer expense and technique of instrument-building (fine silk strings for qin, tanbur's resonant double-bowl, etc), combined with explicit or implicit sense that the
thinking about fitting pace/finnissy 'academic/postmodern virtuosity' into general theory of approaches to virtuosity according to socioeconomic conditions...like, despite all the famous paintings, qin players have historically not actually been known to bring their (extremely moisture sensitive) instruments up to remote mountain tops to play alongside nature...
I'll tell you one Finnissy thing I'd like you to listen to for me,
the 7 Sacred Motets. It sounds like a pastiche of early music, but
I'm not sure it really is. Someone told me that he's using scales
from non European music, Arab scales.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
In article <68d98821-9c00-43c9...@googlegroups.com>,
Ellie Kerry <ellie...@georgeblood.com> wrote:
like, despite all the famous paintings, qin players have historicallyAn evocation, yes... an establishment of "natural balance" within a different setting... maybe.
not actually been known to bring their (extremely moisture sensitive) >instruments up to remote mountain tops to play alongside nature...
But a basic question around individual virtuosity per se, perhaps sometimes/often unanswerable: Is the affective quality deriving
from sound per se, or from an internal dialog about someone's
physical ability? Or more concretely: If two people played the
same music as a soloist, i.e. half each (in a situation where this
would be easier...), does it change the affective response? Why?
(Internal dialog....)
In article <063d6643-1cc2-46e8...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll tell you one Finnissy thing I'd like you to listen to for me,
the 7 Sacred Motets. It sounds like a pastiche of early music, but
I'm not sure it really is. Someone told me that he's using scales
from non European music, Arab scales.
I found the '02 recording on Metier.... (No liner notes included.)
It sounds like Eastern Orthodox music, to open. Some later sections
evoke more the French conductus era, so a sort of pastiche I guess....
But the Eastern style cultivated here has some sophistication...
and what you're saying about Arab scales might have to do with how
that's been approached. (But I'm not sure from what I heard. As
noted here previously, Ottoman court music included many e.g. Jewish
& Armenian musicians & composers. Various studies seem to have
been aborted politically though....) Regarding the Eastern style specifically, the voices here aren't quite right (which is, I might
imagine, part of why it sounds like pastiche...?). Anyway, for an
"Eastern" group from the West/US, maybe check out Capella Romana.
They have their own label, some "Grammy" type success, and are very
eager (i.e. regularly send me things)... and are good singers. They
also promote new music in this style.
Having typed that, I am hearing more of the French 13th century
recur consistently here too.... Maybe Marcel Peres would approve. :-)
Generally pretty.... (And fluid music. Nothing sounds nearly
impossible.)
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for
this will be sort of irrelevant but byzantine chant has been a focus of
mine recently, i've discovered this 100-cd series of studio-quality >recordings of chanters mostly born in the 1910s and mostly from istanbul
or from mt. athos monasteries, whose repertoire includes for example the >'oral tradition'-versions (i.e. not reconstructed, not HIP) of
'byzantine ars nova' works by john koukouzeles etc. - >https://e-kere.gr/english/byzantine-music - lots of long audio samples >here... if anyone is interested in compare/contrast with the tone
production and 'vibe' of for example capella romana...
and another thought re virtuosity, i think for me the inescapable conclusion of this line of thinking is that by far the most politically efficacious recordings are, like, ba-benzele field recordings for example, demonstrations of the sheer depth ofsophistication enabled by totally egalitarian non-virtuosic communal music-making, which are totally unsatisfying listening experiences on record but can act almost as guides (thematically not literally) or signposts for something you can actually do in
In article <063d6643-1cc2-46e8...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll tell you one Finnissy thing I'd like you to listen to for me,
the 7 Sacred Motets. It sounds like a pastiche of early music, but
I'm not sure it really is. Someone told me that he's using scales
from non European music, Arab scales.
I found the '02 recording on Metier.... (No liner notes included.)
It sounds like Eastern Orthodox music, to open. Some later sections
evoke more the French conductus era, so a sort of pastiche I guess....
But the Eastern style cultivated here has some sophistication...
and what you're saying about Arab scales might have to do with how
that's been approached. (But I'm not sure from what I heard. As
noted here previously, Ottoman court music included many e.g. Jewish
& Armenian musicians & composers. Various studies seem to have
been aborted politically though....) Regarding the Eastern style specifically, the voices here aren't quite right (which is, I might
imagine, part of why it sounds like pastiche...?). Anyway, for an
"Eastern" group from the West/US, maybe check out Capella Romana.
They have their own label, some "Grammy" type success, and are very
eager (i.e. regularly send me things)... and are good singers. They
also promote new music in this style.
Having typed that, I am hearing more of the French 13th century
recur consistently here too.... Maybe Marcel Peres would approve. :-)
Generally pretty.... (And fluid music. Nothing sounds nearly
impossible.)
it's kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at
the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.
like the sense of 'hearing a mind work in real time', in a way
positioning ali akbar shahnazi tar solos as like a vehicle to
imagine intimacy?
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'...According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person...https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person...https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
I heard it twice in person, but under different circumstances:
1) Decades ago, I met someone who had a qin and they offered to play it for me. Having listened to its music up until that point only on recordings, I was surprised as to how low the volume was even in a rather small room,
2) Decades later, I went to a qin 'concert'. I could tell that not a few audience members couldn't have known (or even suspected) that the instrument had to have had an amplifying device hidden under it for it to be heard in a rather large auditorium.
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person...https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
I heard it twice in person, but under different circumstances:
1) Decades ago, I met someone who had a qin and they offered to play it for me. Having listened to its music up until that point only on recordings, I was surprised as to how low the volume was even in a rather small room,
2) Decades later, I went to a qin 'concert'. I could tell that not a few audience members couldn't have known (or even suspected) that the instrument had to have had an amplifying device hidden under it for it to be heard in a rather large auditorium.
What we moderns may have lost sight of is that we listen to now
music at much higher volumes than people of the past who lived is
less noisier environments.
In article <758eb5f1-bfdc-4ee5...@googlegroups.com>,
...@gmail.com> wrote:
What we moderns may have lost sight of is that we listen to now
music at much higher volumes than people of the past who lived is
less noisier environments.
This is quite true. (And there were "loud" & "soft" instruments
too.)
The entire concert setting is quite a historical novelty. The West
did have a transition in terms of music in big, echo-y religious
chambers (such that acousmatics was invented to induce reverence,
although I digress...)...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:33:32 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:than when it is not pressed.
In article <fb65754b-093e-4dff...@googlegroups.com>,Good point.
...@gmail.com> wrote:
As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impressionPresented from the musician's point of view....
that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was
miked too closely.
Concerning the following recording of the koto playing HARU NO KYOKU, about 12 seconds after the start, you can hear a soft squeaky sound. That is when the musician uses his/her left hand to press down on a string to make a sound whose pitch is sharper
In a concert environment, isn't that sound only audible to the musician but not to the audience meaning that wasn't the microphone placed too closely to the left side of the koto?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XII43yNuPWM
In article <fb65754b-093e-4dff...@googlegroups.com>,
gggg gggg <gggg...@gmail.com> wrote:
As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impressionPresented from the musician's point of view....
that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was
miked too closely.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for
In a concert environment, isn't that sound only audible to the
musician but not to the audience meaning that wasn't the microphone
placed too closely to the left side of the koto?
... weren't those chambers likely to have been made of some kind
of stone which reflected sound better than wood and which may have >contributed to the rise of harmony in the West?
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for
Generally pretty.... (And fluid music. Nothing sounds nearly
impossible.)
the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of '
Could the advent of stereo recordings have increased the 'appeal' of gagaku music because stereo seemed to allow each individual instrument to be heard more clearly and distinctly?
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'...According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of '
Could the advent of stereo recordings have increased the 'appeal' of gagaku music because stereo seemed to allow each individual instrument to be heard more clearly and distinctly?
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for
the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of '
According to this recent article:
- And then the technological improvements meant you could do anything you want, and that meant you could help the composer by emphasizing instruments you normally don't hear so well in the concert hall during a performance.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/analog-corner-261-brahms-symphonies-direct-disc-berlin-philharmonic
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 3:27:38 PM UTC, Ellie Kerry wrote:
sophistication enabled by totally egalitarian non-virtuosic communal music-making, which are totally unsatisfying listening experiences on record but can act almost as guides (thematically not literally) or signposts for something you can actually do inand another thought re virtuosity, i think for me the inescapable conclusion of this line of thinking is that by far the most politically efficacious recordings are, like, ba-benzele field recordings for example, demonstrations of the sheer depth of
This is the sort of thinking which inspired Cornelius Cardew's The Great Learning. Cage's conception of the individual's role in the group, in performance of his music for groups with flexible time brackets, is also possibly relevant.
But this also came to mind
https://open.spotify.com/artist/5iSyXjErQ3L89v93OQQ1pF
(I think it's on youtube) The poet and philosopher Lanza del Vasto, who was a pupil of Ghandi, founded a non violent community in Arche in 1948. The Chanterelle was formed from their members.
In article <758eb5f1-bfdc-4ee5...@googlegroups.com>,
gggg gggg <gggg...@gmail.com> wrote:
What we moderns may have lost sight of is that we listen to now
music at much higher volumes than people of the past who lived is
less noisier environments.
This is quite true. (And there were "loud" & "soft" instruments
too.)
The entire concert setting is quite a historical novelty. The West
did have a transition in terms of music in big, echo-y religious
chambers (such that acousmatics was invented to induce reverence,
although I digress...), but that's still ritual. Indian music is
another that developed a large slice of repertory for private
devotion, particularly in the South. (Meaning that Carnatic music
is typically amplified in concerts & close mic'd in recordings...
like qin... and for the same historical reason.)
In article <bcf9ddfc-114f-423f...@googlegroups.com>,
Ellie Kerry <ellie...@georgeblood.com> wrote:
other than 'the situation was broadly similar' i know very littlePeople sang privately at temples, no audience. That is what they
about carnatic historical performance contexts...
say anyway.
other than 'the situation was broadly similar' i know very little
about carnatic historical performance contexts...
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 11:23:30 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'...According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it'shttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
(Y. upload):
"Xing Tan Yin for 1-string qin, 杏坛吟； 一弦琴；演奏者：林晨"
On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 5:00:38 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 11:23:30 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history
kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'...According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it'shttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
(Y. upload):
"Xing Tan Yin for 1-string qin, 杏坛吟； 一弦琴；演奏者：林晨"Apparently the qin also existed in Vietnam:
https://www.youtube.com/@vietnamguqinsociety6275/videos
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience...
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics' >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself. I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for
In article <063d6643-1cc2-46e8-982b-8a767467a974n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll tell you one Finnissy thing I'd like you to listen to for me,
the 7 Sacred Motets.
Anyway, for an "Eastern" group from the West/US, maybe check out
Capella Romana.
In article <tpfqkh$rg7$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
In article <063d6643-1cc2-46e8...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll tell you one Finnissy thing I'd like you to listen to for me,
the 7 Sacred Motets.
Anyway, for an "Eastern" group from the West/US, maybe check out
Capella Romana.
I'm a little hesitant to mention this here, since it could easily
lead OT, but given various such topics, still feel it's of relevance:
Cappella Romana just announced they'd be performing for the UK
Coronation.
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of '
Considering how close modern performances are to ancient performances (and whether modern performances have been made to adapt to the expectations of modern audiences), it may be of interest to know that the emperor of Japan has not always beeneconomically prosperous. At those times, were the musicians and their performances affected and did that influence performances of the future in not being as lavish as in the past?
According to Wikipedia's article on an emperor who lived in the 1500's:out the formal coronation ceremonies ten years later. The Imperial Court's poverty was so extreme that the Emperor was forced to sell his calligraphy.
- ...The Imperial Court was so impoverished, that a nationwide appeal for contributions went out. Contributions from the Hōjō clan, the Ōuchi clan, the Imagawa clan, and other great daimyō clans of the Sengoku period allowed the Emperor to carry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Nara#Events_of_Go-Nara's_life
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:06:40 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5,
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it'shttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of '
economically prosperous. At those times, were the musicians and their performances affected and did that influence performances of the future in not being as lavish as in the past?Considering how close modern performances are to ancient performances (and whether modern performances have been made to adapt to the expectations of modern audiences), it may be of interest to know that the emperor of Japan has not always been
out the formal coronation ceremonies ten years later. The Imperial Court's poverty was so extreme that the Emperor was forced to sell his calligraphy.According to Wikipedia's article on an emperor who lived in the 1500's:
- ...The Imperial Court was so impoverished, that a nationwide appeal for contributions went out. Contributions from the Hōjō clan, the Ōuchi clan, the Imagawa clan, and other great daimyō clans of the Sengoku period allowed the Emperor to carry
landed aristocrats soon after...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Nara#Events_of_Go-Nara's_lifeinteresting to consider what kinds of economic transformations were happening such that the court could become so impoverished at that time. i guess wrapped up with whatever transformations enabled the merchant classes to so far outpace the wealth of
anyway the idea of gagaku performance as static / a living fossil is totally mythological, even leaving aside the multiple 50 or 100 year gaps in performance after which the music was 'revived'/recreated/reimagined, there is also significant evidencethat performance practice changed hugely with transitions from court-employed entertainers to amateur aristocratic circles to temple ritualists and back to court-employed ritualists. so, to your idea about changing performance venue, it makes sense, but
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:57:35 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:history of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:45:35 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:06:40 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5,
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>, cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole
s kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it'https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense
economically prosperous. At those times, were the musicians and their performances affected and did that influence performances of the future in not being as lavish as in the past?Considering how close modern performances are to ancient performances (and whether modern performances have been made to adapt to the expectations of modern audiences), it may be of interest to know that the emperor of Japan has not always been
carry out the formal coronation ceremonies ten years later. The Imperial Court's poverty was so extreme that the Emperor was forced to sell his calligraphy.According to Wikipedia's article on an emperor who lived in the 1500's:
- ...The Imperial Court was so impoverished, that a nationwide appeal for contributions went out. Contributions from the Hōjō clan, the Ōuchi clan, the Imagawa clan, and other great daimyō clans of the Sengoku period allowed the Emperor to
of landed aristocrats soon after...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Nara#Events_of_Go-Nara's_lifeinteresting to consider what kinds of economic transformations were happening such that the court could become so impoverished at that time. i guess wrapped up with whatever transformations enabled the merchant classes to so far outpace the wealth
evidence that performance practice changed hugely with transitions from court-employed entertainers to amateur aristocratic circles to temple ritualists and back to court-employed ritualists. so, to your idea about changing performance venue, it makesanyway the idea of gagaku performance as static / a living fossil is totally mythological, even leaving aside the multiple 50 or 100 year gaps in performance after which the music was 'revived'/recreated/reimagined, there is also significant
According to this:
- Daiei 5, on the 1st day of the 1st month (1525): All ceremonies in the court were suspended because of the lack of funds to support them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Kashiwabara#Events_of_Go-Kashiwabara's_lifeAccording to this:
- After the end of the War, there was little enthusiasm for reviving the Imperial Court's ancient ceremonies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Tsuchimikado#Events_of_Go-Tsuchimikado's_life
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:45:35 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:06:40 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5,
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history
kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it'shttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of '
economically prosperous. At those times, were the musicians and their performances affected and did that influence performances of the future in not being as lavish as in the past?Considering how close modern performances are to ancient performances (and whether modern performances have been made to adapt to the expectations of modern audiences), it may be of interest to know that the emperor of Japan has not always been
carry out the formal coronation ceremonies ten years later. The Imperial Court's poverty was so extreme that the Emperor was forced to sell his calligraphy.According to Wikipedia's article on an emperor who lived in the 1500's: - ...The Imperial Court was so impoverished, that a nationwide appeal for contributions went out. Contributions from the Hōjō clan, the Ōuchi clan, the Imagawa clan, and other great daimyō clans of the Sengoku period allowed the Emperor to
landed aristocrats soon after...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Nara#Events_of_Go-Nara's_lifeinteresting to consider what kinds of economic transformations were happening such that the court could become so impoverished at that time. i guess wrapped up with whatever transformations enabled the merchant classes to so far outpace the wealth of
that performance practice changed hugely with transitions from court-employed entertainers to amateur aristocratic circles to temple ritualists and back to court-employed ritualists. so, to your idea about changing performance venue, it makes sense, butanyway the idea of gagaku performance as static / a living fossil is totally mythological, even leaving aside the multiple 50 or 100 year gaps in performance after which the music was 'revived'/recreated/reimagined, there is also significant evidence
According to this:
- Daiei 5, on the 1st day of the 1st month (1525): All ceremonies in the court were suspended because of the lack of funds to support them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Kashiwabara#Events_of_Go-Kashiwabara's_life
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of '
Could this apply to gagaku?:
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/PKYnU5QcFIU
On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:37:57 AM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of
kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it'shttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending forit reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of '
basically absurd claim. I can think of roughly a million counterexamples.Could this apply to gagaku?:
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/PKYnU5QcFIUIMO, Nietzsche is here identifying something real about the development of both gagaku and WCM, but in typical enlightenment and post-enlightenment European philosopher fashion, he pretty much arbitrarily universalizes his observation to end up at a
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.do you play qin? i'm envious.
anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the
of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.According to this:
- The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kindhttps://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for
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