Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 02:10:32 UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, as often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
A grandiose type of pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works were written.
Ray Hall wrote:
On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 02:10:32 UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything,
but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed
it to sound like much ado about nothing!
I often feel the same way about the symphony it
followed, as often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th.
A grandiose type of pomposity was not considered
amiss in the times these works were written.
Okay, but to me Beethoven 9 (or 3 or 5) doesn't
sound like much ado about nothing.
Beethoven grabs you by the throat, as it were.
And yet the music flows, except perhaps in the
finale.
Brahms (in his first symphony) sounds as if he
is trying very hard to overwhelm you too, again
and again, actually.
Very subjective, of course. I wish I could articulate
this difference (as I perceive it) better.
I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, as
often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th. A grandiose type of
pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works
were written.
On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 10:24:45 AM UTC-8, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
Ray Hall wrote:
On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 02:10:32 UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote: >>>> Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything,
but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed
it to sound like much ado about nothing!
Brahms suffered from terminal incurable seriousness.
Many of his orchestral works sound exactly as you
describe the 1st.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
dk
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On 12/23/22 4:40 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.
Andrew ClarkeI was puzzled by the reference to "Brown Windsor Soup" and finally got
Canberra
around to looking it up. Of course there is a whole Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_soup
Says there it "gained a reputation as indicative of bad English food
during the mid-20th century, and a later source of jokes, myths and
legends."
As an alternative to the soupy, thick, viscous style I tried Norrington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylgl83OATRk
This is with his HIP band London Classical Players and it turned out to
be thin gruel indeed. Might be due to the unimaginative phrasing rather
than the small orchestra and "original instruments".
Or could just be mediocre conducting - Norrington has another YT
performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-S1CCDxld0
This is with the SWR Orchestra with standard instruments but little
vibrato, and again lacking in interpretive touches.
On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
On 12/23/22 4:40 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
There has, of course, been a revolution in Brahms orchestral performance practice in recent years. The Brown Windsor Soup approach is definitely on the way out.
Andrew ClarkeI was puzzled by the reference to "Brown Windsor Soup" and finally got around to looking it up. Of course there is a whole Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_soup
Canberra
Says there it "gained a reputation as indicative of bad English food
during the mid-20th century, and a later source of jokes, myths and legends."
As an alternative to the soupy, thick, viscous style I tried Norrington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylgl83OATRk
This is with his HIP band London Classical Players and it turned out to
be thin gruel indeed. Might be due to the unimaginative phrasing rather
than the small orchestra and "original instruments".
Or could just be mediocre conducting - Norrington has another YT performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-S1CCDxld0
This is with the SWR Orchestra with standard instruments but little
vibrato, and again lacking in interpretive touches.
Assuming it is not a hopeless quest, I was wondering if folks have
versions they can recommend with thinner textures?
And Happy Holidays to all!
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
More wonderful HIP here:
< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wTAhhGlDYw&t=25s >
I think the two lady violists on stage left are an item.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:12:46 PM UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
More wonderful HIP here:
< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wTAhhGlDYw&t=25s >
I think the two lady violists on stage left are an item.
The lady violists (= viola players) sit between the keyboard and the celli, stage right.
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
Oh, okay, I get it, we were talking mirrorwise.
So, I guess you are implying violists have more fun?
Oh, okay, I get it, we were talking mirrorwise.
So, I guess you are implying violists have more fun?
In article <44006b82-22b2-47fa...@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
What seems to have become the go-to HIP recording of the BrahmsI was thinking you were talking about something newer, but these
symphonies is that by Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber >Orchestra.
are still the recordings from the 1990s? Just wanting to make sure
I'm following....
(I liked Mackerras' "Great C Major" from that era....)
What seems to have become the go-to HIP recording of the Brahms
symphonies is that by Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber >Orchestra.
I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras?
I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
There have been numerous mentions here about "dancing
about architecture" - and a lot of "Apache Dancing" at RMCR -
but this review manages to explain really clearly what is so
distinctive about the Honeck performance...
I wonder how many Brahms cycles
there have been since the Mackerras?
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 10:53:39 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
I wonder how many Brahms cycles
there have been since the Mackerras?
At least half a dozen too many.
dk
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
In article <e291301c-57d8-46c3...@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras? Wouldn't want to speculate... I might not even have the order ofmagnitude correct! Among them though, I've long favored Gardiner.
On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 7:32:12 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 10:53:39 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
I wonder how many Brahms cycles
there have been since the Mackerras?
At least half a dozen too many.
In the Golden Age they were
almost an annual event.
On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce
opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
True. Mackerras walks on water. I
find he is OK in Janacek.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 2:51:09 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce
opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
True. Mackerras walks on water. IBut can he walk on burning gasoline?
find he is OK in Janacek.
I ask the question .....
dk
The Brahms of the first Serenade is greatly to be preferred.
On 12/25/22 1:53 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
I wonder how many Brahms cycles there have been since the Mackerras?
Andrew ClarkeI really enjoyed Honeck's recent 4th with Pittsburgh and am hoping he
Canberra
does a complete cycle.
While googling to see if I missed any newer release, I found this statement:
"Marek Janowski, recorded a first-rate Brahms cycle of very different character not too long ago for PentaTone"
This is from, FWIW, a rave review by Hurwitz of the Honeck 4th: https://www.classicstoday.com/review/honeck-and-pittsburgh-shine-in-brahms-fourth/
I also found an extremely interesting additional review of this 4th:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Nov/Brahms-sy4-FR744.htm
There have been numerous mentions here about "dancing about
architecture" - and a lot of "Apache Dancing" at RMCR - but this review manages to explain really clearly what is so distinctive about the
Honeck performance...
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
(Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras. I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
(Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
The evidence is on camera.On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
(Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms. >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying
Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like tospend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms. >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying
Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like tospend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
Op 2022-12-27 om 13:00 schreef Herman:something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra >>>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms. >>>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such >>>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying
spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to
Recently he got into some trouble when jubilating in a video about Gardner's recording of Brahms symphonies 1 and 3, and someone pointed at his review on ClassicsToday - "Gardner’s Unnecessary Brahms" with a 6 for artistic quality.
That review was a fake one, Hurwitz replied; it has been removed now.
His enthusiasm in his videos can be very inexplicable. His disapproval too.
On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms. >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such >>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying
to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like
A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:06:01 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying
to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like
A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.well, that's great. I do however see a problem. I'm always doubtful of people who claim to know exactly what they heard twenty, thirty or more years ago, and who are sure they would feel exactly the same way.
Also, as a music reviewer one weighs a recording / performance against the competition on the market. And the thing is, when you're talking about reissues, the competition has changed entirely, and the whole weighing process should be reconsidered.
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 3:06:55 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:06:01 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote: >>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote: >>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
(Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying
like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you
There are three Daves:A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.well, that's great. I do however see a problem. I'm always doubtful of people who claim to know exactly what they heard twenty, thirty or more years ago, and who are sure they would feel exactly the same way.
Also, as a music reviewer one weighs a recording / performance against the competition on the market. And the thing is, when you're talking about reissues, the competition has changed entirely, and the whole weighing process should be reconsidered.
(a) Dave the Musicologist, who has looked into 18th century performance practice and found that orchestras played with more vibrato than the HIPpies will allow,
(b) Dave the Critic, who can be sensitive, articulate and well-informed
(d) Dave the Influencer. Waves arms. Wears scarves. Abuses conductors, soloists and orchestras who disbelieve in (a) above, plus Sir Simon Rattle. Gets lots of hugely enthusiastic comments from people who enjoy that kind of thing ...
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 9:25:26 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:saying something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 3:06:55 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:06:01 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
On 12/27/2022 7:00 AM, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote: >>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote: >>>>> Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
(Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and
like to spend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a >serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you
There are three Daves:A. If he is familiar with the recordings, I really don't see the problem if he hasn't listened to them recently.well, that's great. I do however see a problem. I'm always doubtful of people who claim to know exactly what they heard twenty, thirty or more years ago, and who are sure they would feel exactly the same way.
Also, as a music reviewer one weighs a recording / performance against the competition on the market. And the thing is, when you're talking about reissues, the competition has changed entirely, and the whole weighing process should be reconsidered.
(a) Dave the Musicologist, who has looked into 18th century performance practice and found that orchestras played with more vibrato than the HIPpies will allow,
(b) Dave the Critic, who can be sensitive, articulate and well-informed (d) Dave the Influencer. Waves arms. Wears scarves. Abuses conductors, soloists and orchestras who disbelieve in (a) above, plus Sir Simon Rattle. Gets lots of hugely enthusiastic comments from people who enjoy that kind of thing ...
Andrew ClarkeConcerning his 'shocking revelation', it made me nauseous.
Canberra
In fact, I may have been traumatized.
For life.
He is noooooooooooooooooooooo James Bond.
But then again, neither was Sean:
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/707389/Sean-Connery-James-Bond-007-bags-of-ice-chest-love-scenes-Daniel-Craig
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras. >>> I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra
(Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms.
a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
The evidence is on camera.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms. >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying
Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like tospend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
On Tue, 27 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:something like, "that's a good one" - he's clearly coasting on memories of years back.
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 7:31:35 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 4:57:27 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2022, Herman wrote:The evidence is on camera.
On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 1:48:43 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:Oh, yes, the Scottish was, hilariously, one of his world's best orchestras.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
AFAIK Ticciati did a comparable Brahms cycle with the same Orchestra >>>>> (Scottish Chamber Orchestra).
I doubt Hurwitz even listens to these cds he reviews.
He just reads the contents of the booklet on camera and flaps his arms. >>> The latter is quite a serious charge - if you are seriously making such >>> a claim I hope you have evidence for it.
Just look at the videos. Those I have seen consist of DH holding up a box of reissues up and saying some generalities about the composer or performer. The rest of the 'review' is him reading aloud from the booklet, the works recorded, and saying
You are confusing "video" with "review". Some of his videos are reviews, some are comparative assessments, some are actual musical discussions, and so on. And yes, some are summaries of the contents of large (sometimes enormous) boxes. The latter are sometimes not very interesting, but what else could he do with them? He claims to have a good memory, and I takespend a lot of time watching a guy flap his arms and read track listings, good for you.
him at his word. It is entirely unreasonable to expect him to relisten
to all of them, especially given the number and variety of all his
videos. (And he has mentioned that in some cases, such as a Barbirolli
box, he did relisten, which took him many months). Better that he listens
to the actually-new stuff. So when you say "Those I have seen", it seems like you have made an odd choice. But you would no doubt be dissatisfied with whatever seletion of his videos you chose to watch, and that is entirely your prerogative.
To be briefer: I largely agree with Frank's reply.
Obviously I don't watch these videos a lot, but I have rarely encountered one in which I got the impression DH had listened to the cd / the music in advance of making the video. This is not a serious "charge"; it's just my observation. If you like to
It is indeed a serious charge; it implies a lack of integrity. Your qualification of it in the above is an improvement. (I'm neither
bothered nor impressed by the "arm-flapping", but really, for the most
part, the content of these videos is the the audio.)
--
Al Eisner
It is indeed a serious charge; it implies a lack of integrity.
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 12:08:08 AM UTC+1, Al Eisner wrote:he's seriously trying to further the truth?
It is indeed a serious charge; it implies a lack of integrity.Seriously? Why do you think he's making all these videos, which are mostly bordering on a comedic routine? Do you think he's making a living by entertaining a tiny audience, trying to make them watch as many google minutes as possible, or do you think
I guess I'll just take the way many of you guys have become Hurwitz Beliebers <snip>
I guess I'll just take the way many of you
guys have become Hurwitz Beliebers
I can't read books on the bus.
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:many ways.
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
I was wondering if anyone had any opinions about the other Skandi Brahms cycle from the Swedish Chamber Orchestra under Thomas Dausgard?
We are been shown an alternative - not necessarily a more *authentic* - way to play Brahms, especially when you toss in the piano concertos with the OAE and Sir Andras Schiff or the Royal Northern Sinfonia and the late Lars Vogt. And I prefer it, in
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Thursday, 29 December 2022 at 12:28:25 UTC+11, andrewc...gmail.com wrote:many ways.
On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 2:10:32 AM UTC+11, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms intentionally composed it to sound like much ado about nothing!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
I was wondering if anyone had any opinions about the other Skandi Brahms cycle from the Swedish Chamber Orchestra under Thomas Dausgard?
We are been shown an alternative - not necessarily a more *authentic* - way to play Brahms, especially when you toss in the piano concertos with the OAE and Sir Andras Schiff or the Royal Northern Sinfonia and the late Lars Vogt. And I prefer it, in
spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed? Far too many artists and bands getting away with passable recordings.Andrew ClarkeI am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned about the Brahms' symphonies, of any of the older established versions, (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally well reviewed. For me, unless a brand
Canberra
One way to stop the mindless repetition of warhorse stuff, that is not up to hi performance snuff, is to ignore it. After all, unless one is an audio nut, there are enough recordings from the 60/70/80s that can compare well enough with present dayrecordings audio-wise.
PS: it isn't that Sir SR is bad, it is just that he doesn't compare to the greats. Also, from several reviews I have read, both Fischer's cycles appear to have not suceeded wrt Brahm's symphonies. I do have Alsop, and it is not chopped liver, In fact,it is rather quite good.
Ray Hall, Taree
I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned about the Brahms' symphonies,
of any of the older established versions, (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally
well reviewed. For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult
to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed? Far too many artists
and bands getting away with passable recordings.
For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?
I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned
about the Brahms' symphonies, of any of the older established versions,
(HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally well reviewed.
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 8:58:48 PM, Ray Hall wrote:
I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned about the Brahms' symphonies,the wise and handsome herman, and I concur that Haitink's late 1980s digital version w/ BSO on Philips is one of the best all-around cycles
of any of the older established versions, (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally
well reviewed. For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult
to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed? Far too many artists
and bands getting away with passable recordings.
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?Because we live now.
Good current artists express the way we live now.
(And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:50:24 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?Because we live now.
Good current artists express the way we live now.
(And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)
Catullus
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 9:43:44 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:50:24 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?Because we live now.
Good current artists express the way we live now.
(And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)
Catullus- The soul that sees beauty may sometimes walk alone.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 6:58:48 PM UTC-8, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
I am a bit curious as to whether you are in possession, being concerned about the Brahms' symphonies, of any of the older established versions, (HvK, Klemps, Glulini, Haitink, Abbados, etc.), that are universally well reviewed.Because the terms "established" and "universally well reviewed" mean
nothing more than inclusion in a shared belief system. Also because
every single version mentioned above has flaws to some ears.
If one insists in having a single well recorded version of the Brahms Symphonies, my first choice would be Bernstein/VPO.
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 9:56:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 9:43:44 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:50:24 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 3:58:48 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
For me, unless a brand spanking new version is so wildly acclaimed that it becomes difficult to ignore, then why should anyone bother, and why should any new stuff succeed?Because we live now.
Good current artists express the way we live now.
(And I say this as someone who likes to read Catullus and Sophocles, Dickens and Goethe.)
Catullus- The soul that sees beauty may sometimes walk alone.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe- I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year.
Charles Dickens ("A Christmas Carol")
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...
Listening to the first movement of Brahms 1 again.
I suppose a piece of music doesn't have to be about
anything, but to me this really sounds like Brahms
intentionally composed it to sound like much ado
about nothing!
On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)True. Mackerras walks on water. I find he is OK in Janacek.
Ray Hall, Taree
All those rosettes for Mackerras are just a fata morgana.
On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 22:51:09 UTC, raymond....gmail.com wrote:play and sing this music.
On Sunday, 25 December 2022 at 23:48:43 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-12-25 om 13:12 schreef Andrew Clarke:
Mackerras must be OK because Big D, long a fierce opponent of HIP performance practice, enjoys it too.
That is because he likes EVERYTHING Mackerras did ;-)True. Mackerras walks on water. I find he is OK in Janacek.
Ray Hall, Taree
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to
On 12/29/22 11:34 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
Large scale orchestral works are about one thing,
and one thing only -- keeping musicians employed.
Precisely as you say, much ado about nothing.
That's one of the dumbest things you've ever said
in this forum.
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 2:18:14 PM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
All those rosettes for Mackerras are just a fata morgana.That's the music industry rackett for you! ;-)
Happy New Year!
dk
Large scale orchestral works are about one thing,
and one thing only -- keeping musicians employed.
Precisely as you say, much ado about nothing.
dk
On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, asPomposity was the name of the game in those times in
often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th. A grandiose type of
pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works
were written.
some countries. France and Italy suffered less from this
disease than Germany. The latter invented seriousness.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
dk
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:06:51 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
On 12/29/22 11:34 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
Large scale orchestral works are about one thing,
and one thing only -- keeping musicians employed.
Precisely as you say, much ado about nothing.
That's one of the dumbest things you've ever said
in this forum.
Since I specialize in saying "dumb things",
wait to see the next one! ;-)
BTW this forum as a whole is a collection
of intolerant, bigotted conservatives that
are stuck in 18th and 19th century caves
and cannot conceive of the notion that
people can hear and listen differently
from one another. Subscribing to any
shared belief systems is not only
meaningless, but also threatens
everyone else's freedom of thought
and ability to think independently.
Happy New Year!
dk
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 12:00:34 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:46:16 AM UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 12:00:34 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...
The issue is you seem to have an endless supply of quotes illustrating how depraved and uncultured our current times are, not realizing that this habit of yours of plundering quote websites is a prime illustration of shallowness.
The issue is you seem to have an endless supply of quotes illustrating
how depraved and uncultured our current times are, not realizing
that this habit of yours of plundering quote websites is a prime
illustration of shallowness.
In article <7ade135a-e176-4b72...@googlegroups.com>,
Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The issue is you seem to have an endless supply of quotes illustratingYes, constant quotation/collage was a trait of the early postmodern.
how depraved and uncultured our current times are, not realizing
that this habit of yours of plundering quote websites is a prime >illustration of shallowness.
Very much so.
Of course, Gggg also implies regularly that he & I share no musical interests, as his usual stock of quotes includes various about how contemporary music is evil and/or historical music is misguided.
That stuff is a real turnoff, afaic.
In article <611e84b9-b798-4801...@googlegroups.com>,
...@gmail.com> wrote:
Except on rarer than rare occasions, have I ever agreed with anyoneWho knows. You generally don't have conversations.
here?
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:23:55 AM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <611e84b9-b798-4801...@googlegroups.com>,Am I the only one who has found that it not easy having conversations with the dominant personalities here?
...@gmail.com> wrote:
Except on rarer than rare occasions, have I ever agreed with anyoneWho knows. You generally don't have conversations.
here?
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:46:16 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 12:00:34 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...
The issue is you seem to have an endless supply of quotes illustrating how depraved and uncultured our current times are, not realizing that this habit of yours of plundering quote websites is a prime illustration of shallowness.
Except on rarer than rare occasions, have I ever agreed with anyone
here?
Am I the only one who has found that it not easy having conversations
with the dominant personalities here?
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:06:51 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
On 12/29/22 11:34 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
Large scale orchestral works are about one thing,
and one thing only -- keeping musicians employed.
Precisely as you say, much ado about nothing.
That's one of the dumbest things you've ever saidSince I specialize in saying "dumb things",
in this forum.
wait to see the next one! ;-)
BTW this forum as a whole is a collection
of intolerant, bigotted conservatives that
are stuck in 18th and 19th century caves
and cannot conceive of the notion that
people can hear and listen differently
from one another. Subscribing to any
shared belief systems is not only
meaningless, but also threatens
everyone else's freedom of thought
and ability to think independently.
Happy New Year!
dk
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 12:29:48 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:46:16 AM UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 12:00:34 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...
The issue is you seem to have an endless supply of quotes illustrating how depraved and uncultured our current times are, not realizing that this habit of yours of plundering quote websites is a prime illustration of shallowness.Have I ever claimed to be anything but superficial, frivolous and shallow?
(Definitely shallow):
- I cling to my imperfection, as the very essence of my being.
Anatole France.
- Perfection is a trifle dull. It is not the least of life's ironies that this, which we all aim at, is better not quite achieved.
W. Somerset Maugham
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:46:16 AM UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 12:00:34 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:43:44 AM UTC+1, wrote:
- Oh, this age! How tasteless and ill bred it is!
If I had known my post would trigger this nonsense I would have thought twice...
The issue is you seem to have an endless supply of quotes illustrating how depraved and uncultured our current times are, not realizing that this habit of yours of plundering quote websites is a prime illustration of shallowness.
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:23:55 AM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
In article <611e84b9-b798-4801...@googlegroups.com>,Am I the only one who has found that it not easy having conversations with the dominant personalities here?
...@gmail.com> wrote:
Except on rarer than rare occasions, have I ever agreed with anyoneWho knows. You generally don't have conversations.
here?
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 6:45:54 PM UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:23:55 AM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:You never have conversations because you either post references to youtube vids or you post rhetorical questions, as above.
In article <611e84b9-b798-4801...@googlegroups.com>,Am I the only one who has found that it not easy having conversations with the dominant personalities here?
...@gmail.com> wrote:
Except on rarer than rare occasions, have I ever agreed with anyone >here?Who knows. You generally don't have conversations.
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
From The Gramophone:recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series).
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in 1990 (
In a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that reliablyreduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle also explains their
I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed recordedsound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its urgency
The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving mixture ofwisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.
Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are charmingperformances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering, though
The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and, whilethere are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration of
-Hugo Shirley >>
On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Oscar wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series).From The Gramophone:
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in
reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle alsoIn a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that
sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its urgencyI wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed recorded
of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving mixture
performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering, thoughSophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are charming
there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration ofThe generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and, while
-Hugo Shirley >>Shirley you jest!
I sctually don't know anything about this recording, but I could not
pass up a rare opportunity to say that.
Happy New Year to all here.
--
Al Eisner
Is it possible to have conversations with highly opinionated persons?
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 4:27:38 PM UTC-6, gggg gggg wrote:
Is it possible to have conversations with highly opinionated persons?Yes.
I like it when you post original content
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 9:30:55 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series).
On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Oscar wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
From The Gramophone:
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in
reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle also
In a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that
sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its urgency
I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed recorded
of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.
The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving mixture
performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering, though
Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are charming
there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration of
The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and, while
Shirley you jest!
-Hugo Shirley >>
I sctually don't know anything about this recording, but I could not
pass up a rare opportunity to say that.
Happy New Year to all here.
--
Al Eisner
It's nice to be able to read an actual example of a rave review of Sir Simon from The Gramophone, often mentioned but never quoted. The next question is whether in fact it's actually a reasonable description of an excellent recording.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, Andrew Clarke wrote:1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series).
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 9:30:55 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Oscar wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
From The Gramophone:
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in
reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle also
In a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that
sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its urgency
I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed recorded
mixture of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.
The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving
performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering, though
Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are charming
while there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration
The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and,
Shirley you jest!
-Hugo Shirley >>
I sctually don't know anything about this recording, but I could not
pass up a rare opportunity to say that.
Happy New Year to all here.
--
Al Eisner
It's nice to be able to read an actual example of a rave review of Sir Simon from The Gramophone, often mentioned but never quoted. The next question is whether in fact it's actually a reasonable description of an excellent recording.
Andrew ClarkeLet us know, Referring back to the subject line, when Rattle was with
Canberra
the BP, I heard them do Brahms 1 in SF over a decade ago, If I recall
it was on the heavy and slow side, but I don't remember details. On recordings, Rattle has done some very good Szymanowski.
--
Al Eisner
original content? these are just the usual hide-and-seek rhet. questions he's been posting for fifteen years.
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:48:31 PM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series). >>>>>
On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 9:30:55 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Oscar wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
From The Gramophone:
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in
reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle alsoIn a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that
sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its urgency
I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed recorded
mixture of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.
The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving
performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering, though
Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are charming
while there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration
The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and,
the recording, unlike the kind of vague prose-poetry that The Gramophone does so well ...Let us know, Referring back to the subject line, when Rattle was withShirley you jest!
-Hugo Shirley >>
I sctually don't know anything about this recording, but I could not
pass up a rare opportunity to say that.
Happy New Year to all here.
--
Al Eisner
It's nice to be able to read an actual example of a rave review of Sir Simon from The Gramophone, often mentioned but never quoted. The next question is whether in fact it's actually a reasonable description of an excellent recording.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
the BP, I heard them do Brahms 1 in SF over a decade ago, If I recall
it was on the heavy and slow side, but I don't remember details. On
recordings, Rattle has done some very good Szymanowski.
--
Al Eisner
This is unlikely to happen, Al, as I'm not interested in Janacek these days, although I'm tempted to buy it as a 'test piece'. But at least this reviewer has specified certain elements of the performance that appeal to him: these can be checked against
I've heard and seen a great deal of Sir Simon's work on the Digital Concert Hall, from Mozart to Dallapiccola. The only problem with the man appears to be his nationality.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, Andrew Clarke wrote:1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series).
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:48:31 PM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 9:30:55 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Oscar wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
From The Gramophone:
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in
reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle also
In a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that
recorded sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its
I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed
mixture of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.
The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving
charming performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering,
Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are
while there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration
The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and,
against the recording, unlike the kind of vague prose-poetry that The Gramophone does so well ...Let us know, Referring back to the subject line, when Rattle was withShirley you jest!
-Hugo Shirley >>
I sctually don't know anything about this recording, but I could not >>>> pass up a rare opportunity to say that.
Happy New Year to all here.
--
Al Eisner
It's nice to be able to read an actual example of a rave review of Sir Simon from The Gramophone, often mentioned but never quoted. The next question is whether in fact it's actually a reasonable description of an excellent recording.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
the BP, I heard them do Brahms 1 in SF over a decade ago, If I recall
it was on the heavy and slow side, but I don't remember details. On
recordings, Rattle has done some very good Szymanowski.
--
Al Eisner
This is unlikely to happen, Al, as I'm not interested in Janacek these days, although I'm tempted to buy it as a 'test piece'. But at least this reviewer has specified certain elements of the performance that appeal to him: these can be checked
I've heard and seen a great deal of Sir Simon's work on the Digital Concert Hall, from Mozart to Dallapiccola. The only problem with the man appears to be his nationality.
Andrew ClarkeNot his hair?
Canberra
I've heard and enjoyed some of his performances there as well, but not very extensively. The one I was most impressed by was of a work which was
largely new to me - the Berio Sinfonia - which seemed like a real
challenge to bring off.
I suppose that listening to more of the Concert Hall should be a
New Year's resolution, since after all I am paying for it.
--
Al Eisner
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 6:45:54 PM UTC+1, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:23:55 AM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote: >>> In article <611e84b9-b798-4801...@googlegroups.com>,
...@gmail.com> wrote:Am I the only one who has found that it not easy having conversations with the dominant personalities here?
Except on rarer than rare occasions, have I ever agreed with anyoneWho knows. You generally don't have conversations.
here?
You never have conversations because you either post references to youtube vids or you post rhetorical questions, as above.
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 8:07:52 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series). >>>>>>>
On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:48:31 PM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 9:30:55 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Oscar wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote: >>>>>>>>
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
From The Gramophone:
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in
reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle alsoIn a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that
recorded sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its
I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed
mixture of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.
The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving
charming performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering,
Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are
while there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration
The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and,
against the recording, unlike the kind of vague prose-poetry that The Gramophone does so well ...Let us know, Referring back to the subject line, when Rattle was withShirley you jest!
-Hugo Shirley >>
I sctually don't know anything about this recording, but I could not >>>>>> pass up a rare opportunity to say that.
Happy New Year to all here.
--
Al Eisner
It's nice to be able to read an actual example of a rave review of Sir Simon from The Gramophone, often mentioned but never quoted. The next question is whether in fact it's actually a reasonable description of an excellent recording.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
the BP, I heard them do Brahms 1 in SF over a decade ago, If I recall
it was on the heavy and slow side, but I don't remember details. On
recordings, Rattle has done some very good Szymanowski.
--
Al Eisner
This is unlikely to happen, Al, as I'm not interested in Janacek these days, although I'm tempted to buy it as a 'test piece'. But at least this reviewer has specified certain elements of the performance that appeal to him: these can be checked
Dallapiccola.I've heard and seen a great deal of Sir Simon's work on the Digital Concert Hall, from Mozart to Dallapiccola. The only problem with the man appears to be his nationality.Not his hair?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
I've heard and enjoyed some of his performances there as well, but not very >> extensively. The one I was most impressed by was of a work which was
largely new to me - the Berio Sinfonia - which seemed like a real
challenge to bring off.
I suppose that listening to more of the Concert Hall should be a
New Year's resolution, since after all I am paying for it.
--
Al Eisner
There's a concert on there in which he conducts works for large orchestra by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern as one large suite, the one after the other without breaks. There's also a series of late-night concerts devoted to people like Berio and
The hair shouldn't be a problem. If it was good enough for Tamla-Motown, it's good enough for Munich. I do find it interesting that it's only Rattle's hair that's a problem, however.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, Andrew Clarke wrote:in 1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series).
On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 8:07:52 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:48:31 PM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 9:30:55 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Oscar wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote: >>>>>>>>
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
From The Gramophone:
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House
reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle also
In a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that
recorded sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its
I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed
mixture of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.
The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving
charming performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering,
Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are
while there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration
The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and,
against the recording, unlike the kind of vague prose-poetry that The Gramophone does so well ...Let us know, Referring back to the subject line, when Rattle was with >>>> the BP, I heard them do Brahms 1 in SF over a decade ago, If I recall >>>> it was on the heavy and slow side, but I don't remember details. On >>>> recordings, Rattle has done some very good Szymanowski.Shirley you jest!
-Hugo Shirley >>
I sctually don't know anything about this recording, but I could not >>>>>> pass up a rare opportunity to say that.
Happy New Year to all here.
--
Al Eisner
It's nice to be able to read an actual example of a rave review of Sir Simon from The Gramophone, often mentioned but never quoted. The next question is whether in fact it's actually a reasonable description of an excellent recording.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
--
Al Eisner
This is unlikely to happen, Al, as I'm not interested in Janacek these days, although I'm tempted to buy it as a 'test piece'. But at least this reviewer has specified certain elements of the performance that appeal to him: these can be checked
Dallapiccola.I've heard and seen a great deal of Sir Simon's work on the Digital Concert Hall, from Mozart to Dallapiccola. The only problem with the man appears to be his nationality.Not his hair?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
I've heard and enjoyed some of his performances there as well, but not very
extensively. The one I was most impressed by was of a work which was
largely new to me - the Berio Sinfonia - which seemed like a real
challenge to bring off.
I suppose that listening to more of the Concert Hall should be a
New Year's resolution, since after all I am paying for it.
--
Al Eisner
There's a concert on there in which he conducts works for large orchestra by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern as one large suite, the one after the other without breaks. There's also a series of late-night concerts devoted to people like Berio and
For me, the "without breaks" thing is a gimmick and a big turnoff. But thanks for the other suggestion. (None of this of course addresses his prowess in the more standard repertory on which DH focuses his criticism.)
The hair shouldn't be a problem. If it was good enough for Tamla-Motown, it's good enough for Munich. I do find it interesting that it's only Rattle's hair that's a problem, however.
You are getting too esoteric for me. But do you mean that nationality
(as you suggested) is more of a problem than hair? Or that his hair
is more of a problem than some other style would be? Or - a problem
at least some are familiar with - the absence of hair?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
--
Al Eisner
On Sat, 31 Dec 2022, Andrew Clarke wrote:1990 (recorded by EMI but now part of Chandos’s Opera in English series).
On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 9:30:55 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2022, Oscar wrote:
On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 4:18:14 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
I don't listen to Mackerras in Janacek - ever! The Czech Supraphon recordings are all miles
better and more authentic, fun, enjoyable and just "Czech". I was lucky enough to see 3 Janacek
operas while staying in Czechia, and they really know how to play and sing this music.
Dare I say I enjoyed Fluffy II's latest recording of Janáček’s Cunning Little Vixen, c/w Sinfonietta (LSO Live, 2020). I know I know . . .
From The Gramophone:
<< Recordings of Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen and Sinfonietta represent major milestones in Simon Rattle’s early discography: the latter with the Philharmonia as far back as 1983, the former with the forces of the Royal Opera House in
reliably reduces him to tears. This recording was made when Rattle performed the work in Peter Sellars’s semi-staging – a transfer from Berlin, where it was unveiled at the Philharmonie in 2017 – at the Barbican. And in his note, Rattle also
In a brief note accompanying this new release, the conductor explains his personal link to Janáček’s wide-eyed and wondrous operatic masterpiece. It’s the work that first made him want to conduct opera at all, and one of few pieces that
sound, this is a Vixen with sharp teeth as well as sharp ears. Instead of the inviting, dewy soundscapes conjured up by, say, Mackerras’s Vienna Philharmonic, we have something a little more threatening. It’s a performance compelling in its urgency
I wasn’t too enamoured of Sellars’s gritty, urban vision of the work when I saw it in Berlin but it seems both there and in London to have informed Rattle’s vision of the score. With pinpoint playing from the LSO and close, detailed recorded
mixture of wisdom and resignation – and we only have a couple of audible traces of Sellars’s concept of the role as rather unappealingly depressive.
The sense of dramatic vividness is conveyed superbly by the cast, led by Lucy Crowe’s impulsive Vixen, brimming with joie de vivre and mischief and singing with airy ease. Gerald Finley’s Forester is outstanding, too, presenting a moving
performances from the younger members of the cast, and the choruses are excellent, even if they sound a little rushed as the Voices of the Forest at the end of Act 2. Some evidence of the semi-staging remains in the recording but the engineering, though
Sophia Burgos is a vibrantly sung, ardent Fox, and the smaller roles, distributed among the rest of the cast, are all well taken, with Jan Martiník’s world-weary Parson and Hanno Müller-Brachmann’s Harašta especially fine. There are charming
while there are similarities with Rattle’s earlier account, the playing from the LSO is on a different level: superbly incisive and standing up to the close scrutiny of the recorded sound. All in all, an outstanding release, and a rewarding celebration
The generous coupling is every bit as compelling: a taut account of the Sinfonietta that bristles with nervous energy and exultant joy. As with the Vixen, it’s a performance that also fully articulates the work’s more unsettling side, and,
Shirley you jest!
-Hugo Shirley >>
I sctually don't know anything about this recording, but I could not
pass up a rare opportunity to say that.
Happy New Year to all here.
--
Al Eisner
It's nice to be able to read an actual example of a rave review of Sir Simon from The Gramophone, often mentioned but never quoted. The next question is whether in fact it's actually a reasonable description of an excellent recording.
Andrew ClarkeLet us know, Referring back to the subject line, when Rattle was with
Canberra
the BP, I heard them do Brahms 1 in SF over a decade ago, If I recall
it was on the heavy and slow side, but I don't remember details. On recordings, Rattle has done some very good Szymanowski.
--
Al Eisner
There's a Rattle Brahms 1 on Digital Concert Hall which
lasts 50 minutes. At the end the audience is cheering.
Yes, the first movement is slow, but it's not funereal.
(a) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/june-2018-germany-berlin-sir-simon-rattle-conducting-during-news-photo/983394562?adppopup=true >
(b) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/quintet-of-brothers-jackson-5-pose-for-a-circa-early-1970s-news-photo/74144329?adppopup=true >
(c) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/hungarian-british-music-conductor-georg-solti-rome-italy-news-photo/1135075359?adppopup=true >
Mr Dallas has recently written some encouraging things about another British conductor, Edward Gardner, now conducting the excellent Bergen Symphony Orchestra. This is unusual, unless he thinks Mackerras was British, which he wasn't. I prefer to readthe more focussed and more intelligent things he has to say about, say, underrated composers like C.P.E. Bach and Boccherini (to whose number I would add G. B. Sammartini) rather than his all-too-predictable diatribes.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, Andrew Clarke wrote:the more focussed and more intelligent things he has to say about, say, underrated composers like C.P.E. Bach and Boccherini (to whose number I would add G. B. Sammartini) rather than his all-too-predictable diatribes.
(a) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/june-2018-germany-berlin-sir-simon-rattle-conducting-during-news-photo/983394562?adppopup=true >In (b), which one is Rattle? Or, at least to form a consstent tneme,
(b) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/quintet-of-brothers-jackson-5-pose-for-a-circa-early-1970s-news-photo/74144329?adppopup=true >
(c) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/hungarian-british-music-conductor-georg-solti-rome-italy-news-photo/1135075359?adppopup=true >
which one was knighted?
Mr Dallas has recently written some encouraging things about another British conductor, Edward Gardner, now conducting the excellent Bergen Symphony Orchestra. This is unusual, unless he thinks Mackerras was British, which he wasn't. I prefer to read
Andrew ClarkeInterestingly, you get to Dallas via another New York Jew, Frank Loesser. Loesser wrote one of te great Broadway musicals, based on a NY subculture, "Guys and Dolls". His follow-up, set in California among Italian
Canberra
immigrants, "The Most Happy Fella", was I think embarrasingly bad
Stick to what you know? Dallas?
DH, by the way, has praised some performances by the Dallas SO...
On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, Andrew Clarke wrote:the more focussed and more intelligent things he has to say about, say, underrated composers like C.P.E. Bach and Boccherini (to whose number I would add G. B. Sammartini) rather than his all-too-predictable diatribes.
(a) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/june-2018-germany-berlin-sir-simon-rattle-conducting-during-news-photo/983394562?adppopup=true >In (b), which one is Rattle? Or, at least to form a consstent tneme,
(b) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/quintet-of-brothers-jackson-5-pose-for-a-circa-early-1970s-news-photo/74144329?adppopup=true >
(c) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/hungarian-british-music-conductor-georg-solti-rome-italy-news-photo/1135075359?adppopup=true >
which one was knighted?
Mr Dallas has recently written some encouraging things about another British conductor, Edward Gardner, now conducting the excellent Bergen Symphony Orchestra. This is unusual, unless he thinks Mackerras was British, which he wasn't. I prefer to read
Andrew ClarkeInterestingly, you get to Dallas via another New York Jew, Frank Loesser. Loesser wrote one of te great Broadway musicals, based on a NY subculture, "Guys and Dolls". His follow-up, set in California among Italian
Canberra
immigrants, "The Most Happy Fella", was I think embarrasingly bad
Stick to what you know? Dallas?
DH, by the way, has praised some performances by the Dallas SO. I picked
up the Litton Ives Symphonies based in part on his repertory review, and
was very impressed with them. On the other hand, I listened to Gardner's Brahms 1 (i) on youtube, and was not particularly impressed.
The diatribes nake up only a small (but probably increasing) fraction of
his videos. His videos come in many different genres, some of which tend
to be good, even revelatory, others of which seem basically silly, and
which I entirely avoid. For something sort-of similar to your "inderrated" category, check out his unusual repertoruy on indeendent labels.
--
Al Eisner
On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 9:53:45 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:the more focussed and more intelligent things he has to say about, say, underrated composers like C.P.E. Bach and Boccherini (to whose number I would add G. B. Sammartini) rather than his all-too-predictable diatribes.
On Sun, 1 Jan 2023, Andrew Clarke wrote:
(a) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/june-2018-germany-berlin-sir-simon-rattle-conducting-during-news-photo/983394562?adppopup=true >In (b), which one is Rattle? Or, at least to form a consstent tneme,
(b) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/quintet-of-brothers-jackson-5-pose-for-a-circa-early-1970s-news-photo/74144329?adppopup=true >
(c) < https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/hungarian-british-music-conductor-georg-solti-rome-italy-news-photo/1135075359?adppopup=true >
which one was knighted?
Mr Dallas has recently written some encouraging things about another British conductor, Edward Gardner, now conducting the excellent Bergen Symphony Orchestra. This is unusual, unless he thinks Mackerras was British, which he wasn't. I prefer to read
screen, surrounded by a large amount of darkness, which makes it almost unwatchable without binoculars ...Interestingly, you get to Dallas via another New York Jew, Frank Loesser.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Loesser wrote one of te great Broadway musicals, based on a NY subculture, >> "Guys and Dolls". His follow-up, set in California among Italian
immigrants, "The Most Happy Fella", was I think embarrasingly bad
Stick to what you know? Dallas?
DH, by the way, has praised some performances by the Dallas SO. I picked
up the Litton Ives Symphonies based in part on his repertory review, and
was very impressed with them. On the other hand, I listened to Gardner's
Brahms 1 (i) on youtube, and was not particularly impressed.
The diatribes nake up only a small (but probably increasing) fraction of
his videos. His videos come in many different genres, some of which tend
to be good, even revelatory, others of which seem basically silly, and
which I entirely avoid. For something sort-of similar to your "inderrated" >> category, check out his unusual repertoruy on indeendent labels.
--
Al Eisner
Loesser means more. I love 'Guys and Dolls' and have the DVD version of the classic film. Unfortunately, the studio insisted on keeping the same aspect ratio for the video as the version for the silver screen, so I get this slot in the middle of my TV
As far as I know, the only performances of 'The Most Happy Fella' on You Tube are by amateur dramatic societies, which, I think we would agree, is significant. It did give us the Big D Theme Song, plus "Standing On The Corner Watching All The Girls GoBy" which I still rather enjoy although I suppose, like "Baby It's Cold Outside", it's now regarded as misogynistic. As, I suppose, is Damon Runyon, who, judging by his references to hymies, dagoes, polacks and smokes, is presumably racist as well.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Hadn't heard the recent recording by 92-year-old Blomstedt
and the LGO, but if you think Brahms 1 bombastic, you might
like the more colorful approach that is readily evident even in
the clip here: https://www.pentatonemusic.com/product/brahms-symphony-no-1-tragic-overture/
While I like a bit more rock and roll to my Brahms 1, I
certainly wouldn't want a thinner orchestra. The LGO
sounds marvelous.
On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:50:30 PM UTC-8, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
Hadn't heard the recent recording by 92-year-old Blomstedt
and the LGO, but if you think Brahms 1 bombastic, you might
like the more colorful approach that is readily evident even in
the clip here: https://www.pentatonemusic.com/product/brahms-symphony-no-1-tragic-overture/
While I like a bit more rock and roll to my Brahms 1, I
certainly wouldn't want a thinner orchestra. The LGO
sounds marvelous.
Metronomic. What else could one expect from HB?
On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:04:12 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, asPomposity was the name of the game in those times in
often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th. A grandiose type of
pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works
were written.
some countries. France and Italy suffered less from this
disease than Germany. The latter invented seriousness.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
dk
The only thing I hate more than music that is pompous and bombastic is music that is performed pompously and bombastically.
Which is why I don't listen to symphonic music--all that triumphant heroism is not for me.
On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:04:12 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
I often feel the same way about the symphony it followed, asPomposity was the name of the game in those times in
often remarked upon, namely the LvB 9th. A grandiose type of
pomposity was not considered amiss in the times these works
were written.
some countries. France and Italy suffered less from this
disease than Germany. The latter invented seriousness.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
dk
The only thing I hate more than music that is pompous and bombastic is music that is performed pompously and bombastically.
Which is why I don't listen to symphonic music--all that triumphant heroism is not for me.
Metronomic. What else could one expect from HB?
dk
On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 7:46:55 PM UTC-6, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
Metronomic. What else could one expect from HB?
Spot on. In his better recordings, it's his strength.
But it is a liability in other works. A friend loathes
his Sibelius 3 for precisely that reason. That's why
I only mentioned the orchestral qualities.
On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 4:58:19 AM UTC-8, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 7:46:55 PM UTC-6, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
Metronomic. What else could one expect from HB?
Spot on. In his better recordings, it's his strength.Yes indeed. HB both improved and destroyed the
But it is a liability in other works. A friend loathes
his Sibelius 3 for precisely that reason. That's why
I only mentioned the orchestral qualities.
SF Symphony at the same time. He re-instilled
the discipline and professionalism that had all
but evaporated under Edo de Waart, while at
the same time locking them into a stylistical
straightjacket that completely destroyed any
nuance or shade of flexibility.
HB was the main reason we cancelled our
SFS subscription.
dk
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