• OT: Rod Liddle - The Feminist Roots of Woke: How The West Went Mad. THE

    From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 17 22:52:15 2022
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sun Dec 18 05:27:11 2022
    On Sunday, 18 December 2022 at 06:52:18 UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    dk

    I didn't look at that video but while I was looking on YT I saw another video called The Great Climate Con, based on a book by Alex Epstein called "The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDWq7-eP5sE

    If you in the mood for completely delusional garbage spoken in a serious and weighty tone and with a straight face, check it out. There may well be idiots all over the world but the ones in the USA have money (mainly from fossil fuels and capitalist
    consumption) and also media influence. I'm constantly surprised at how many people allow themselves to be brainwashed by this delusional crap, but unfortunately it just shows me more and more in my advancing years just what stupid bastards a lot of
    humans are.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sun Dec 18 11:35:44 2022
    On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 5:27:14 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Sunday, 18 December 2022 at 06:52:18 UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    I didn't look at that video but while I was looking on YT I
    saw another video called The Great Climate Con, based
    on a book by Alex Epstein called "The Moral Case for
    Fossil Fuels"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDWq7-eP5sE

    Thanks!

    If you in the mood for completely delusional garbage
    spoken in a serious and weighty tone and with a straight
    face, check it out.

    I am not sure if I am in the mood for it right now, will
    check it out later. Tonight is Hanukkah and I have
    been conscripted to kicthen duty.

    There may well be idiots all over the world but the ones in
    the USA have money (mainly from fossil fuels and capitalist
    consumption) and also media influence. I'm constantly surprised
    at how many people allow themselves to be brainwashed by this
    delusional crap, but unfortunately it just shows me more and more
    in my advancing years just what stupid bastards a lot of humans are.

    IMHO the main difference between the US and the rest of the world
    in this respect is that rich people here see themselves as having a
    right and a public duty to lecture everyone else, and to "serve the
    people". Remember that billionaire named John F. Kennedy who
    was elected POTUS in an election widely believed to have been
    bought by his dad?

    One thing I learned during my life and my career is that success
    does not make people smarter, it only makes them more arrogant.
    Just look at Elon! ;-)

    Cheers,

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Dec 18 11:39:23 2022
    On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 11:35:46 AM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 5:27:14 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Sunday, 18 December 2022 at 06:52:18 UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    I didn't look at that video but while I was looking on YT I
    saw another video called The Great Climate Con, based
    on a book by Alex Epstein called "The Moral Case for
    Fossil Fuels"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDWq7-eP5sE

    Thanks!

    If you in the mood for completely delusional garbage
    spoken in a serious and weighty tone and with a straight
    face, check it out.

    I am not sure if I am in the mood for it right now, will
    check it out later. Tonight is Hanukkah and I have
    been conscripted to kicthen duty.

    There may well be idiots all over the world but the ones in
    the USA have money (mainly from fossil fuels and capitalist
    consumption) and also media influence. I'm constantly surprised
    at how many people allow themselves to be brainwashed by this
    delusional crap, but unfortunately it just shows me more and more
    in my advancing years just what stupid bastards a lot of humans are.

    IMHO the main difference between the US and the rest of the world
    in this respect is that rich people here see themselves as having a
    right and a public duty to lecture everyone else, and to "serve the
    people". Remember that billionaire named John F. Kennedy who
    was elected POTUS in an election widely believed to have been
    bought by his dad?

    One thing I learned during my life and my career is that success
    does not make people smarter, it only makes them more arrogant.
    Just look at Elon! ;-)

    BTW I posted the link to Rod Liddle's talk not so much for its
    content, but because I found his presentation and his manner
    of speech both hilarious and disturbing. He does not seem to
    have his marbles well arranged, he only has a different set of
    marbles scrambled in a different pattern.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Dec 18 16:46:13 2022
    On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 22:52:15 -0800, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    The origins of "woke" is Jews attacking people for being
    anti-semitic. Any videos about that?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Sun Dec 18 20:04:18 2022
    On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 4:46:21 PM UTC-8, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 22:52:15 -0800, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    The origins of "woke" is Jews attacking people
    for being anti-semitic. Any videos about that?

    You will have to find them yourself.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Mon Dec 19 02:54:10 2022
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 00:46:21 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    The origins of "woke" is Jews attacking people for being
    anti-semitic. Any videos about that?

    That's not what Wiki says - it says the origins are African American and refer to awareness of racism. It was popularised as a leftist movement against the far right in the USA, Trump etc. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with Israel, which isn't
    leftist or pro-African Americans.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Mon Dec 19 04:28:21 2022
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 6:39:26 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 11:35:46 AM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 5:27:14 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Sunday, 18 December 2022 at 06:52:18 UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    I didn't look at that video but while I was looking on YT I
    saw another video called The Great Climate Con, based
    on a book by Alex Epstein called "The Moral Case for
    Fossil Fuels"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDWq7-eP5sE

    Thanks!

    If you in the mood for completely delusional garbage
    spoken in a serious and weighty tone and with a straight
    face, check it out.

    I am not sure if I am in the mood for it right now, will
    check it out later. Tonight is Hanukkah and I have
    been conscripted to kicthen duty.

    There may well be idiots all over the world but the ones in
    the USA have money (mainly from fossil fuels and capitalist
    consumption) and also media influence. I'm constantly surprised
    at how many people allow themselves to be brainwashed by this
    delusional crap, but unfortunately it just shows me more and more
    in my advancing years just what stupid bastards a lot of humans are.

    IMHO the main difference between the US and the rest of the world
    in this respect is that rich people here see themselves as having a
    right and a public duty to lecture everyone else, and to "serve the people". Remember that billionaire named John F. Kennedy who
    was elected POTUS in an election widely believed to have been
    bought by his dad?

    One thing I learned during my life and my career is that success
    does not make people smarter, it only makes them more arrogant.
    Just look at Elon! ;-)
    BTW I posted the link to Rod Liddle's talk not so much for its
    content, but because I found his presentation and his manner
    of speech both hilarious and disturbing. He does not seem to
    have his marbles well arranged, he only has a different set of
    marbles scrambled in a different pattern.

    dk

    Rod Liddle is a regular columnist for 'The Spectator' and usually well worth reading. A member of the Labour Party until 2016 - The Spectator generally supports the Conservatives - he is famous for supporting unfashionable causes and dissecting
    fashionable ones. His father was a train driver (or engineer if you will) and he grew up in Middlesborough, now part of the North of England rust belt.
    Americans often have problems 'reading' British irony, which might be the case here.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to andrewc...@gmail.com on Mon Dec 19 07:35:59 2022
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 4:28:58 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 3:04:20 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 4:46:21 PM UTC-8, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 22:52:15 -0800, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    The origins of "woke" is Jews attacking people
    for being anti-semitic. Any videos about that?

    You will have to find them yourself.

    He'll have a job on!

    He might get help from others. I don't
    doubt there are plenty of people who
    share his views. They might even
    make a video or two to document
    their "facts".

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Dec 19 07:34:05 2022
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 2:54:13 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 00:46:21 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:

    The origins of "woke" is Jews attacking people for
    being anti-semitic. Any videos about that?

    That's not what Wiki says - it says the origins are
    African American and refer to awareness of racism.
    It was popularised as a leftist movement against the
    far right in the USA, Trump etc. Doesn't seem to have
    anything to do with Israel, which isn't leftist or pro-African
    Americans.

    Thanks for the clarification. Pluted probably does not
    care about factual reality -- he makes his own instead.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Dec 19 08:08:25 2022
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 2:54:13 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 00:46:21 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:

    The origins of "woke" is Jews attacking people
    for being anti-semitic. Any videos about that?

    That's not what Wiki says - it says the origins are
    African American and refer to awareness of racism.
    It was popularised as a leftist movement against the
    far right in the USA, Trump etc. Doesn't seem to have
    anything to do with Israel, which isn't leftist or pro-
    African Americans.

    Here is a recent article about the spread of wokeism
    in the academia in the US:

    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/takeover-russell-jacoby

    Provided as a public service, not soliciting debate.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Dec 19 11:34:41 2022
    On 12/19/2022 10:35 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 4:28:58 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 3:04:20 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Sunday, December 18, 2022 at 4:46:21 PM UTC-8, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 22:52:15 -0800, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHjXW-aAmB8

    Provided as a public service.
    Not taking any position and
    not soliciting debate.

    The origins of "woke" is Jews attacking people
    for being anti-semitic. Any videos about that?

    You will have to find them yourself.

    He'll have a job on!

    He might get help from others. I don't
    doubt there are plenty of people who
    share his views. They might even
    make a video or two to document
    their "facts".

    dk

    I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Dec 19 09:20:01 2022
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just straightforward political opinion relating to the actions,
    ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two things separate there should not be a problem.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Dec 19 13:07:23 2022
    On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the actions,
    ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.

    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish life in
    the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of antisemitism
    that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the definition of
    anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not altogether).
    Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian children to make
    Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's that anti-Zionism
    is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Mon Dec 19 18:13:27 2022
    On 12/19/2022 6:06 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 05:07:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the
    actions, ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.
    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish life
    in the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of
    antisemitism that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the definition of
    anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not altogether).
    Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian children to make
    Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize >Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's that >anti-Zionism
    is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    Few people know what Zionism really is, let alone all the usual huff and puff you make. Many people deride and condemn Israel purely and solely because of its actions against a very suppressed minority. It is as simple as that. Many articles have been
    posted here about the crimes committed, but you simply choose to say they are not true. End of story.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    People who hate Jews and/or hate Israel constantly accuse Israel of this or that. Most of the accusations are debunked. If you are including Israel "occupying" the land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians as "suppression" there is nothing for us
    to talk about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Dec 19 15:06:15 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 05:07:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the
    actions, ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.
    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish life in
    the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of antisemitism
    that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the definition of
    anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not altogether).
    Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian children to make
    Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize >Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's that >anti-Zionism
    is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    Few people know what Zionism really is, let alone all the usual huff and puff you make. Many people deride and condemn Israel purely and solely because of its actions against a very suppressed minority. It is as simple as that. Many articles have been
    posted here about the crimes committed, but you simply choose to say they are not true. End of story.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Mon Dec 19 18:37:45 2022
    On 12/19/2022 6:22 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:13:37 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 6:06 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 05:07:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the
    actions, ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.
    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish life
    in the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of
    antisemitism that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the definition
    of anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not altogether).
    Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian children to make
    Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize >Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's that >anti-Zionism
    is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    Few people know what Zionism really is, let alone all the usual huff and puff you make. Many people deride and condemn Israel purely and solely because of its actions against a very suppressed minority. It is as simple as that. Many articles have
    been posted here about the crimes committed, but you simply choose to say they are not true. End of story.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    People who hate Jews and/or hate Israel constantly accuse Israel of this or that. Most of the accusations are debunked. If you are including Israel "occupying" the land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians as "suppression" there is nothing for us
    to talk about.

    You debunk them. Of course. Most people do not.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    It's in the news. May times. The NYT, for instance, has retracted many such stories. Do you think Israel has a right to exist? And if so, does it have a right to defend itself against terrorism?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Dec 19 15:22:27 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:13:37 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 6:06 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 05:07:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
    I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the
    actions, ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.
    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish life
    in the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of
    antisemitism that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the definition
    of anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not altogether).
    Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian children to make
    Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize >Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's that >anti-Zionism
    is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    Few people know what Zionism really is, let alone all the usual huff and puff you make. Many people deride and condemn Israel purely and solely because of its actions against a very suppressed minority. It is as simple as that. Many articles have
    been posted here about the crimes committed, but you simply choose to say they are not true. End of story.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    People who hate Jews and/or hate Israel constantly accuse Israel of this or that. Most of the accusations are debunked. If you are including Israel "occupying" the land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians as "suppression" there is nothing for us
    to talk about.

    You debunk them. Of course. Most people do not.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Dec 19 16:33:25 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:37:54 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 6:22 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:13:37 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 6:06 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 05:07:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote: >>>> On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote: >>>>>> I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the
    actions, ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.
    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish
    life in the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of
    antisemitism that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the
    definition of anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not altogether).
    Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian children to make
    Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize >Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's that >anti-Zionism
    is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    Few people know what Zionism really is, let alone all the usual huff and puff you make. Many people deride and condemn Israel purely and solely because of its actions against a very suppressed minority. It is as simple as that. Many articles have
    been posted here about the crimes committed, but you simply choose to say they are not true. End of story.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    People who hate Jews and/or hate Israel constantly accuse Israel of this or that. Most of the accusations are debunked. If you are including Israel "occupying" the land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians as "suppression" there is nothing for
    us to talk about.

    You debunk them. Of course. Most people do not.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    It's in the news. May times. The NYT, for instance, has retracted many such stories. Do you think Israel has a right to exist? And if so, does it have a right to defend itself against terrorism?

    All you are doing is framing the questions, and then refusing to talk. Wo do you think you are? Israel, and its people, have as much right to exist as other countries and their people. Unfortunately, Israel is and has been run by thugs at the very top.
    It happens, same as in some other countries.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Mon Dec 19 21:39:41 2022
    On 12/19/2022 7:33 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:37:54 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 6:22 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:13:37 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 6:06 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 05:07:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote: >>>>>> On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote: >>>>>>>> I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the
    actions, ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.
    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish
    life in the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of
    antisemitism that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the
    definition of anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not altogether).
    Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian children to make
    Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize >Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's that >anti-Zionism
    is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    Few people know what Zionism really is, let alone all the usual huff and puff you make. Many people deride and condemn Israel purely and solely because of its actions against a very suppressed minority. It is as simple as that. Many articles have
    been posted here about the crimes committed, but you simply choose to say they are not true. End of story.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    People who hate Jews and/or hate Israel constantly accuse Israel of this or that. Most of the accusations are debunked. If you are including Israel "occupying" the land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians as "suppression" there is nothing for
    us to talk about.

    You debunk them. Of course. Most people do not.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    It's in the news. May times. The NYT, for instance, has retracted many such stories. Do you think Israel has a right to exist? And if so, does it have a right to defend itself against terrorism?

    All you are doing is framing the questions, and then refusing to talk.

    i never refuse to talk. I can't imagine where that comes from.

    Wo do you think you are?

    Someone who was interest in your views on the subject. Asking doesn't imply I think I am anyone other than who I am.

    Israel, and its people, have as much right to exist as other countries and their people.

    I'm glad you think so. Not everyone does.


    Unfortunately, Israel is and has been run by thugs at the very top. It happens, same as in some other countries.

    Do you mean every Israeli government since 1948? Or just all the right wing governments? Or just under Netanyahu's governments? Please clarify.



    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Dec 19 18:53:54 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 13:39:49 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 7:33 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:37:54 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 6:22 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:13:37 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote: >>>> On 12/19/2022 6:06 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 05:07:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote: >>>>>> On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote: >>>>>>>> I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the
    actions, ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.
    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish
    life in the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of
    antisemitism that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the
    definition of anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not
    altogether). Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian
    children to make Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize >Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's
    that >anti-Zionism is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    Few people know what Zionism really is, let alone all the usual huff and puff you make. Many people deride and condemn Israel purely and solely because of its actions against a very suppressed minority. It is as simple as that. Many articles have
    been posted here about the crimes committed, but you simply choose to say they are not true. End of story.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    People who hate Jews and/or hate Israel constantly accuse Israel of this or that. Most of the accusations are debunked. If you are including Israel "occupying" the land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians as "suppression" there is nothing for
    us to talk about.

    You debunk them. Of course. Most people do not.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    It's in the news. May times. The NYT, for instance, has retracted many such stories. Do you think Israel has a right to exist? And if so, does it have a right to defend itself against terrorism?

    All you are doing is framing the questions, and then refusing to talk.
    i never refuse to talk. I can't imagine where that comes from.

    Your previous post, but one, or two, or a thouand.

    Wo do you think you are?
    Someone who was interest in your views on the subject. Asking doesn't imply I think I am anyone other than who I am.

    You are not interested in my views, as you are very well aware they are vastly different from yours. You are only interested in getting in the last word. As is evident from many years here.

    Israel, and its people, have as much right to exist as other countries and their people.
    I'm glad you think so. Not everyone does.
    Unfortunately, Israel is and has been run by thugs at the very top. It happens, same as in some other countries.

    Do you mean every Israeli government since 1948? Or just all the right wing governments? Or just under Netanyahu's governments? Please clarify.

    It is only necessary for you to accept that apartheid and suppression, amounting to violation of human rights has been practiced. Your complete and repeated denials are not a basis for any meaningful discussion.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Mon Dec 19 22:29:55 2022
    On 12/19/2022 9:53 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 13:39:49 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 7:33 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:37:54 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/19/2022 6:22 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 10:13:37 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote: >>>>>> On 12/19/2022 6:06 PM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 05:07:33 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote: >>>>>>>> On 12/19/2022 12:20 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 19 December 2022 at 16:34:49 UTC, Frank Berger wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I would call the pup an out and out antisemite, but although everyone agrees there is such a thing as antisemitism, it seems that no individual is one and therefore can't be accused of being one.

    Well, you know a lot more about Jewishness than I do but I thought antisemitism was quite simple - prejudice against Jews as a people. It excludes criticism of the State of Israel which is just >straightforward political opinion relating to the
    actions, ideologies and policies of any state, as it would be towards Russia, the USA, Iran or any other country. As long as you keep these two >things separate there should not be a problem.
    Nothing relating to Jewish or Jewishness is simple. Of course the theoretical distinction between antisemitism and anti-Zionism is conceptually simple at first blush. But then you consider that the "claim" and yearning for restoration of Jewish
    life in the Holy Land is part and parcel of traditional Judaism. So if one says he has nothing against Jews unless the aspire to Zion, that can be considered antisemitic and many institutions and organizations have, in fact, adopted a definition of
    antisemitism that includes anti-Zionism.

    I am not talking about criticism of various policies of the State of Israel. As in any democracy, Israelis disagree among themselves. They do not, with rare exceptions, dispute the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is the
    definition of anti-Zionism.

    A French-Jewish philosopher whose name is escaping me at the moment made an insightful observation. At one time, mainstream Christian thinking was to hate Jews because the killed Christ. That view fell out of the mainstream (though not
    altogether). Those who wanted to hate Jews adopted the view that the Jews were a cabal controlling the Banks and the World. That also fell out of favor as an acceptable view. At one time is was widely thought that Jews used the blood of Christian
    children to make Passover matzah. The current, socially acceptable way to express hated of Jews is to deny Israel's right to exist and to demonize >Jews who support it (almost all of them). So it's not so much whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, it's
    that >anti-Zionism is how the Jew haters express themselves.

    Few people know what Zionism really is, let alone all the usual huff and puff you make. Many people deride and condemn Israel purely and solely because of its actions against a very suppressed minority. It is as simple as that. Many articles have
    been posted here about the crimes committed, but you simply choose to say they are not true. End of story.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    People who hate Jews and/or hate Israel constantly accuse Israel of this or that. Most of the accusations are debunked. If you are including Israel "occupying" the land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians as "suppression" there is nothing for
    us to talk about.

    You debunk them. Of course. Most people do not.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    It's in the news. May times. The NYT, for instance, has retracted many such stories. Do you think Israel has a right to exist? And if so, does it have a right to defend itself against terrorism?

    All you are doing is framing the questions, and then refusing to talk.
    i never refuse to talk. I can't imagine where that comes from.

    Your previous post, but one, or two, or a thouand.

    Wo do you think you are?
    Someone who was interest in your views on the subject. Asking doesn't imply I think I am anyone other than who I am.

    You are not interested in my views, as you are very well aware they are vastly different from yours. You are only interested in getting in the last word. As is evident from many years here.

    Israel, and its people, have as much right to exist as other countries and their people.
    I'm glad you think so. Not everyone does.
    Unfortunately, Israel is and has been run by thugs at the very top. It happens, same as in some other countries.

    Do you mean every Israeli government since 1948? Or just all the right wing governments? Or just under Netanyahu's governments? Please clarify.

    It is only necessary for you to accept that apartheid and suppression, amounting to violation of human rights has been practiced. Your complete and repeated denials are not a basis for any meaningful discussion.

    Ray Hall, Taree


    Why did you reply to my post in the first place? Just to get in a shot? If you really think Israel practices Apartheid, you an idiot or incredibly ignorant.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Dec 19 19:47:52 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:30:05 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

    It is only necessary for you to accept that apartheid and suppression, amounting to violation of human rights has been practiced. Your complete and repeated denials are not a basis for any meaningful discussion.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Why did you reply to my post in the first place? Just to get in a shot? If you really think Israel practices Apartheid, you an idiot or incredibly ignorant.

    On the contrary, you are. Unbelievably so. But then I have known that for some time.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Norman Schwartz@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Tue Dec 20 03:09:31 2022
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:47:55 PM UTC-5, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:30:05 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

    It is only necessary for you to accept that apartheid and suppression, amounting to violation of human rights has been practiced. Your complete and repeated denials are not a basis for any meaningful discussion.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Why did you reply to my post in the first place? Just to get in a shot? If you really think Israel practices Apartheid, you an idiot or incredibly ignorant.
    On the contrary, you are. Unbelievably so. But then I have known that for some time.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I’m a Jew simply because my parents were Jewish, just as you are Christian because of your parentage. All I know and care about Israel is that I have a place to seek refuge if life becomes too tough for me wherever else I might be (because of my
    parentage).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Norman Schwartz on Tue Dec 20 04:09:16 2022
    Norman Schwartz schrieb am Dienstag, 20. Dezember 2022 um 12:09:34 UTC+1:
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:47:55 PM UTC-5, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:30:05 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

    It is only necessary for you to accept that apartheid and suppression, amounting to violation of human rights has been practiced. Your complete and repeated denials are not a basis for any meaningful discussion.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Why did you reply to my post in the first place? Just to get in a shot? If you really think Israel practices Apartheid, you an idiot or incredibly ignorant.
    On the contrary, you are. Unbelievably so. But then I have known that for some time.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I’m a Jew simply because my parents were Jewish, just as you are Christian because of your parentage. All I know and care about Israel is that I have a place to seek refuge if life becomes too tough for me wherever else I might be (because of my
    parentage).

    It's probably für die Katz (for the cat/a waste of time), but I'll try anyway:

    Being Jewish in this world is different from being a Christian or a Buddhist or a Muslim or whatever.

    You are right in a sense that your religious affilitation is hereditary (just as is the case with Christians), but in contrast to Christians or Muslims who leave their religion, "you" (most Jews) will always be considered Jewish by other people.

    So, being a Christian is basically a choice that people can make; I can leave the church tomorrow and if I tell people I left it, noone will confuse me for a christian. But with "you" it's different, you can't make this choice, as the world has already
    decided for you: No matter what you do to leave your "jewishness" behind you, you can't, in the eyes of the world you will "always" be a jew.

    We are living in the era of nation states, and Jews will always be considered "alien" within other nations, which is precisely the reason why the Jews need a state.

    As Moishe Postone puts it:

    "In Europe, however, the notion of the nation as a purely political entity, abstracted from the substantiality of civil society, was never fully realized. The nation was not only a political entity, it was also concrete, determined by a common language,
    history, traditions, and religion. In this sense, the only group in Europe that fulfilled the determination of citizenship as a pure political abstraction was the Jews following their political emancipation. They were German or French citizens, but not
    really Germans or Frenchmen. They were of the nation abstractly, but rarely concretely. They were, in addition, citizens of most European countries." https://libcom.org/article/anti-semitism-and-national-socialism-moishe-postone

    Israel is not an appartheid state, and it's fucking ridiculous that ignorant idiots like Ray single out israel, accusing it of things it isn't, while not saying a single word about the abuses of human rights in "palestine" - imo Ray is clearly an
    antisemite. What rights do homosexuals have in "Palestine"? What rights do women have in "Palestine"? How are Jews treated in Gaza and other places? While Israel sends medical supplies to Gaza (daily?)... What about Egypt's border with Gaza? Does this
    ever get talked about? Or just recently, the beheading of "Ahmad Abu Maria"? A homosexual who sought freedom in Israel and was then kidnapped by "palestinians" (the great freedom fighters in Ray's deluded mind) and beheaded in the westbank. Ray... where
    exactly is the appartheid? Jews aren't allowed to travel to many muslim-majority countries (in which women and homosexuals don't have any rights). Tell me Ray, where is the appartheid?

    It's should also be noted that the Iranians that are against the Regime are very pro-Israel ;)

    Fuck the left-wing newspapers of Israel btw - they never miss an opportunity to demonize Netanyahu (just like NYP) - fortunately the young Israelis aren't having any of this shit and voted for Netanyahu - Amen!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerard@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 20 14:11:54 2022
    Op 2022-12-20 om 13:22 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 12:09:19 UTC, Marc S wrote:

    Israel is not an appartheid state, and it's fucking ridiculous that ignorant idiots like Ray single out israel, accusing it of things it isn't, while not saying a single word about the abuses of human rights in "palestine" - imo Ray is clearly an
    antisemite.

    I've never known Ray to say anything antisemitic in all the years he's been here. He is a very vocal critic of the State of Israel but in that he just joins thousands and thousands of others around the world who are also not antisemitic people, just
    thinking humans. As I've said before, when you label critics of the State of Israel "antisemitic" you yourself make the term meaningless, and so nobody should be bothered by it. The more the term is abused in this way, the more meaningless it will become
    to the point where nobody will care much anymore. That's wrong because the term does have an exact meaning and a lot of history. It's your choice how you use the term, as long as you realise you have to meet the consequences of your choice.

    The term IS meaningless already, since long. Specially when coming from fanatics and coming with appellations like "idiot".
    These "discussions" are always meaningless as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Dec 20 04:22:51 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 12:09:19 UTC, Marc S wrote:

    Israel is not an appartheid state, and it's fucking ridiculous that ignorant idiots like Ray single out israel, accusing it of things it isn't, while not saying a single word about the abuses of human rights in "palestine" - imo Ray is clearly an
    antisemite.

    I've never known Ray to say anything antisemitic in all the years he's been here. He is a very vocal critic of the State of Israel but in that he just joins thousands and thousands of others around the world who are also not antisemitic people, just
    thinking humans. As I've said before, when you label critics of the State of Israel "antisemitic" you yourself make the term meaningless, and so nobody should be bothered by it. The more the term is abused in this way, the more meaningless it will become
    to the point where nobody will care much anymore. That's wrong because the term does have an exact meaning and a lot of history. It's your choice how you use the term, as long as you realise you have to meet the consequences of your choice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 20 05:09:28 2022
    Op dinsdag 20 december 2022 om 13:09:19 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
    Norman Schwartz schrieb am Dienstag, 20. Dezember 2022 um 12:09:34 UTC+1:
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:47:55 PM UTC-5, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:30:05 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

    It is only necessary for you to accept that apartheid and suppression, amounting to violation of human rights has been practiced. Your complete and repeated denials are not a basis for any meaningful discussion.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Why did you reply to my post in the first place? Just to get in a shot? If you really think Israel practices Apartheid, you an idiot or incredibly ignorant.
    On the contrary, you are. Unbelievably so. But then I have known that for some time.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I’m a Jew simply because my parents were Jewish, just as you are Christian because of your parentage. All I know and care about Israel is that I have a place to seek refuge if life becomes too tough for me wherever else I might be (because of my
    parentage).
    It's probably für die Katz (for the cat/a waste of time), but I'll try anyway:

    Being Jewish in this world is different from being a Christian or a Buddhist or a Muslim or whatever.

    You are right in a sense that your religious affilitation is hereditary (just as is the case with Christians), but in contrast to Christians or Muslims who leave their religion, "you" (most Jews) will always be considered Jewish by other people.

    So, being a Christian is basically a choice that people can make; I can leave the church tomorrow and if I tell people I left it, noone will confuse me for a christian. But with "you" it's different, you can't make this choice, as the world has already
    decided for you: No matter what you do to leave your "jewishness" behind you, you can't, in the eyes of the world you will "always" be a jew.

    We are living in the era of nation states, and Jews will always be considered "alien" within other nations, which is precisely the reason why the Jews need a state.

    As Moishe Postone puts it:

    "In Europe, however, the notion of the nation as a purely political entity, abstracted from the substantiality of civil society, was never fully realized. The nation was not only a political entity, it was also concrete, determined by a common language,
    history, traditions, and religion. In this sense, the only group in Europe that fulfilled the determination of citizenship as a pure political abstraction was the Jews following their political emancipation. They were German or French citizens, but not
    really Germans or Frenchmen. They were of the nation abstractly, but rarely concretely. They were, in addition, citizens of most European countries." https://libcom.org/article/anti-semitism-and-national-socialism-moishe-postone

    Israel is not an appartheid state, and it's fucking ridiculous that ignorant idiots like Ray single out israel, accusing it of things it isn't, while not saying a single word about the abuses of human rights in "palestine" - imo Ray is clearly an
    antisemite. What rights do homosexuals have in "Palestine"? What rights do women have in "Palestine"? How are Jews treated in Gaza and other places? While Israel sends medical supplies to Gaza (daily?)... What about Egypt's border with Gaza? Does this
    ever get talked about? Or just recently, the beheading of "Ahmad Abu Maria"? A homosexual who sought freedom in Israel and was then kidnapped by "palestinians" (the great freedom fighters in Ray's deluded mind) and beheaded in the westbank. Ray... where
    exactly is the appartheid? Jews aren't allowed to travel to many muslim-majority countries (in which women and homosexuals don't have any rights). Tell me Ray, where is the appartheid?

    It's should also be noted that the Iranians that are against the Regime are very pro-Israel ;)

    Fuck the left-wing newspapers of Israel btw - they never miss an opportunity to demonize Netanyahu (just like NYP) - fortunately the young Israelis aren't having any of this shit and voted for Netanyahu - Amen!

    So you are back, Marc! As I said before, I'm a critic of post-Rabin Israel. If that makes me an anti-semite as well as a Baizuo - so be it. You turn it into a nom de gueux.

    BTW, Norman's few lines hit the nail on the head. Where and how to find refuge? The where has been answered by Zionism. The problem is how.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 20 04:47:07 2022
    Martin Luther King: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism!”

    The thing is: The arabs realized that they can't defeat Israel in wars, so they try it the political way: They are trying to delegitimize it by accusing it of things it isn't (and the western left has fallen for this lie), such as it it being an
    appartheid state. Through this, the "palestinian"-movement gains popularity from idiots like Ray (and Andy) and other western leftists who have lost all touch with reality.

    I hate the chinese government, but they coined a term for idiots like Ray and Andy (and ofc Herman ;D) which I think is quite approriate: Baizuo.

    From Wikipedia: ""Baizuo" is a popular political epithet commonly used on the Chinese Internet. The literal translation is "white left" which refers to western white liberal leftists.[5] According to Chinese political scientist Chenchen Zhang, the word "
    Baizuo" refers to those who "only care about topics such as immigration, minorities, LGBT rights and the environment", but lack a concept of "real problems in the real world". It is also used to describe those "hypocritical humanitarians who advocate
    political correctness just to satisfy their own sense of moral superiority".[6][7] Some used this word to indicate those "ignorant and arrogant westerners" who "pity the rest of the world and think they are saviours"."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Norman Schwartz on Tue Dec 20 08:50:50 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 22:09:34 UTC+11, Norman Schwartz wrote:
    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:47:55 PM UTC-5, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 14:30:05 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

    It is only necessary for you to accept that apartheid and suppression, amounting to violation of human rights has been practiced. Your complete and repeated denials are not a basis for any meaningful discussion.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Why did you reply to my post in the first place? Just to get in a shot? If you really think Israel practices Apartheid, you an idiot or incredibly ignorant.
    On the contrary, you are. Unbelievably so. But then I have known that for some time.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    I’m a Jew simply because my parents were Jewish, just as you are Christian because of your parentage. All I know and care about Israel is that I have a place to seek refuge if life becomes too tough for me wherever else I might be (because of my
    parentage).

    I agree with your sentiments, and what is more, considering the expelling of Jewish people from certain countries before WWII, I don't think many people think otherwise. Even more, therefore, that it is a shame that some closely woven people are not
    treated equally. To pretend otherwise is self deception.

    Not that there aren't other countries treating many persecuted people in a shameful manner, immigranrs for example, but there is no excuse for any of them. The EU is not perfect, but at least there is some effort made, mostly to the distress of certain
    groups.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Dec 20 09:28:17 2022
    On 12/20/22 4:22 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 12:09:19 UTC, Marc S wrote:

    Israel is not an appartheid state, and it's fucking ridiculous that ignorant idiots like Ray single out israel, accusing it of things it isn't, while not saying a single word about the abuses of human rights in "palestine" - imo Ray is clearly an
    antisemite.

    I've never known Ray to say anything antisemitic in all the years he's been here. He is a very vocal critic of the State of Israel but in that he just joins thousands and thousands of others around the world who are also not antisemitic people, just
    thinking humans. As I've said before, when you label critics of the State of Israel "antisemitic" you yourself make the term meaningless, and so nobody should be bothered by it. The more the term is abused in this way, the more meaningless it will become
    to the point where nobody will care much anymore. That's wrong because the term does have an exact meaning and a lot of history. It's your choice how you use the term, as long as you realise you have to meet the consequences of your choice.

    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Tue Dec 20 12:32:38 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 17:28:22 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:
    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    Bob Harper

    I'm sorry, Bob, but I'm sure you know that thousands, and other on this ng, agree with Ray and myself that antisemitism and criticism of the State of Israel are two completely different things. You may take the view that they are identical, but that's
    nothing more than a personal opinion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Dec 20 12:37:24 2022
    On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:32:41 PM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 17:28:22 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:
    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    I'm sorry, Bob, but I'm sure you know that thousands, and other on this ng, agree with Ray and myself that antisemitism and criticism of the State of Israel are two completely different things. You may take the view that they are identical, but that's nothing more than a personal opinion.

    The fact "thousands agree" on anything does not make whatever they
    agree on fair, decent, ethical, correct or reasonable. You and Ray are
    clearly very well educated and smart enough to understand that to
    deny Jews their own state/land/nation will eventually lead to the
    destruction of the Jewish people.

    Israel is not perfect, but neither are any other nations on this planet.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Dec 20 16:00:47 2022
    On 12/20/2022 3:32 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 17:28:22 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:
    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real
    difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then
    identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    Bob Harper

    I'm sorry, Bob, but I'm sure you know that thousands, and other on this ng, agree with Ray and myself that antisemitism and criticism of the State of Israel are two completely different things. >You may take the view that they are identical, but that's
    nothing more than a personal opinion.

    There is a difference between criticism and vilification.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Dec 20 16:01:40 2022
    On 12/20/2022 3:37 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:32:41 PM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 17:28:22 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:
    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real
    difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then
    identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    I'm sorry, Bob, but I'm sure you know that thousands, and other on this ng, >> agree with Ray and myself that antisemitism and criticism of the State of
    Israel are two completely different things. You may take the view that they >> are identical, but that's nothing more than a personal opinion.

    The fact "thousands agree" on anything does not make whatever they
    agree on fair, decent, ethical, correct or reasonable. You and Ray are clearly very well educated and smart enough to understand that to
    deny Jews their own state/land/nation will eventually lead to the
    destruction of the Jewish people.

    Israel is not perfect, but neither are any other nations on this planet.

    dk


    Neither does Israel practice Apartheid.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Dec 20 13:04:16 2022
    On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 1:01:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/20/2022 3:37 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:32:41 PM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 17:28:22 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:
    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real
    difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then >>> identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    I'm sorry, Bob, but I'm sure you know that thousands, and other on this ng,
    agree with Ray and myself that antisemitism and criticism of the State of >> Israel are two completely different things. You may take the view that they
    are identical, but that's nothing more than a personal opinion.

    The fact "thousands agree" on anything does not make whatever they
    agree on fair, decent, ethical, correct or reasonable. You and Ray are clearly very well educated and smart enough to understand that to
    deny Jews their own state/land/nation will eventually lead to the destruction of the Jewish people.

    Israel is not perfect, but neither are any other nations on this planet.

    Neither does Israel practice Apartheid.

    Absolutely. Any comparison with South
    Africa's Apartheid is total non-sense.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From number_six@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 20 14:47:52 2022
    What a bitter brew this thread became.

    Have a festive flagon not a lachrymose libation.

    I do not drink alcohol -- but I may start soon.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to dan....gmail.com on Tue Dec 20 14:48:41 2022
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 08:04:19 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 1:01:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/20/2022 3:37 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:32:41 PM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 17:28:22 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:
    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real >>> difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then
    identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    Framing your own views and posing them as a question to deride others, is a tactic well seen through. Shame that you hide behind the truth with a few pat assembly of words. Using glitzy acronyms and slang terms like "woke" are simply excuses, used
    invariably by those on the right, to deride and condemn others, without having any need to make any explanation. Not that the right has ever been known for being aware about societal issues, and considering the plight of those worse off. Eat cake is
    their motto.

    I'm sorry, Bob, but I'm sure you know that thousands, and other on this ng,
    agree with Ray and myself that antisemitism and criticism of the State of
    Israel are two completely different things. You may take the view that they
    are identical, but that's nothing more than a personal opinion.

    The fact "thousands agree" on anything does not make whatever they
    agree on fair, decent, ethical, correct or reasonable. You and Ray are clearly very well educated and smart enough to understand that to
    deny Jews their own state/land/nation will eventually lead to the destruction of the Jewish people.

    Israel is not perfect, but neither are any other nations on this planet.

    As I have already stated ..... and who is saying that Israel should not exist?

    Neither does Israel practice Apartheid.
    Absolutely. Any comparison with South
    Africa's Apartheid is total non-sense.

    dk

    True, but then nobody was comparing Israel to South Africa. But to deny that a complicit persecution, engineered quietly by those at the very top, doesn't take place, flies in the face of far too many reports to even be considered as remotely intelligent
    or honest. This implies nothing about the the majority of ordinary citizens who live there. And neither does it imply anything about the citizens of many other countries either. But governments in democratic countries are voted in. Some even vote for the
    end of democracy.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Tue Dec 20 22:59:03 2022
    In article <285696f7-a31c-41f8-91aa-48e9c62336abn@googlegroups.com>, raymond....@gmail.com <raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com> wrote:
    But governments in democratic countries are voted in.

    Whether the current Israeli government was even voted in is a matter
    of opinion....

    But yes, many citizens, of many countries, disagree with their
    government's policies. It's unremarkable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Tue Dec 20 16:05:56 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 20:37:26 UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    The fact "thousands agree" on anything does not make whatever they
    agree on fair, decent, ethical, correct or reasonable. You and Ray are clearly very well educated and smart enough to understand that to
    deny Jews their own state/land/nation will eventually lead to the
    destruction of the Jewish people. > dk

    I only said "thousands agree", which is an understatement, to try and show that antisemitism=anti-Zionism is not a "truth".

    I never denied the right of Israel to exist. But I also support the right of Palestine to exist, again like many thousands of others etc etc.

    All I have ever said is that criticising the State of Israel in itself isn't antisemitic. God knows, there's enough people here in the UK criticising the government to make this a commonplace. I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Tue Dec 20 18:47:15 2022
    On 12/20/2022 5:48 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 08:04:19 UTC+11, dan....gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 1:01:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/20/2022 3:37 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 12:32:41 PM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote: >>>>> On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 17:28:22 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:
    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real >>>>>> difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then >>>>>> identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    Framing your own views and posing them as a question to deride others, is a tactic well seen through. Shame that you hide behind the truth with a few pat assembly of words. Using glitzy acronyms and slang terms like "woke" are simply excuses, used
    invariably by those on the right, to deride and condemn others, without having any need to make any explanation. Not that the right has ever been known for being aware about societal issues, and considering the plight of those worse off. Eat cake is
    their motto.

    I'm sorry, Bob, but I'm sure you know that thousands, and other on this ng,
    agree with Ray and myself that antisemitism and criticism of the State of >>>>> Israel are two completely different things. You may take the view that they
    are identical, but that's nothing more than a personal opinion.

    The fact "thousands agree" on anything does not make whatever they
    agree on fair, decent, ethical, correct or reasonable. You and Ray are >>>> clearly very well educated and smart enough to understand that to
    deny Jews their own state/land/nation will eventually lead to the
    destruction of the Jewish people.

    Israel is not perfect, but neither are any other nations on this planet.

    As I have already stated ..... and who is saying that Israel should not exist?

    Neither does Israel practice Apartheid.
    Absolutely. Any comparison with South
    Africa's Apartheid is total non-sense.

    dk

    True, but then nobody was comparing Israel to South Africa. But to deny that a complicit persecution, engineered quietly by those at the very top, doesn't take place, flies in the face of far too many reports to even be considered as remotely
    intelligent or honest. This implies nothing about the the majority of ordinary citizens who live there. And neither does it imply anything about the citizens of many other countries either. But governments in democratic countries are voted in. Some even
    vote for the end of democracy.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    You always make these vague charges citing undocumented sources ("too many reports", "thousands agree"). There is no substance to what you say. Nothing that can be refuted. Except that you said Israel practices Apartheid, which it obviously doesn't.
    You sound just like the standard conspiracy theorists, who are as elusive.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Dec 20 19:42:25 2022
    On 12/20/2022 7:05 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 20:37:26 UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    The fact "thousands agree" on anything does not make whatever they
    agree on fair, decent, ethical, correct or reasonable. You and Ray are
    clearly very well educated and smart enough to understand that to
    deny Jews their own state/land/nation will eventually lead to the
    destruction of the Jewish people. > dk

    I only said "thousands agree", which is an understatement, to try and show that antisemitism=anti-Zionism is not a "truth".

    I never denied the right of Israel to exist. But I also support the right of Palestine to exist, again like many thousands of others etc etc.

    All I have ever said is that criticising the State of Israel in itself isn't antisemitic.

    The charge that every little criticism of Israel is labeled antisemitic by Jews is, in fact, a common antisemitic trope. Nobody ever said that every criticism of Israel is antisemitic or anti-Zionist. There are many people on the Left who don't think
    Israel should exist as a Jewish homeland, at least in theory. This belief goes a long way toward justifying Palestinian violence and intransigence in the so-called peace process. The idea that European Jews marched into the Holy Land and displaced the
    native Palestinian population is ludicrous. When I see someone who frequently, virulently, and exclusively expresses one-sided hatred for Israel, guess what I think is likely to be true about that person. Why do I never see Andy or Ray, or Roger Waters
    criticize Palestinian violence and intransigence? Why?



    God knows, there's enough people here in the UK criticising the government to make this a commonplace. I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Dec 20 16:59:45 2022
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 10:47:26 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    Africa's Apartheid is total non-sense.

    dk

    True, but then nobody was comparing Israel to South Africa. But to deny that a complicit persecution, engineered quietly by those at the very top, doesn't take place, flies in the face of far too many reports to even be considered as remotely
    intelligent or honest. This implies nothing about the the majority of ordinary citizens who live there. And neither does it imply anything about the citizens of many other countries either. But governments in democratic countries are voted in. Some even
    vote for the end of democracy.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    You always make these vague charges citing undocumented sources ("too many reports", "thousands agree"). There is no substance to what you say. Nothing that can be refuted. Except that you said Israel practices Apartheid, which it obviously doesn't.
    You sound just like the standard conspiracy theorists, who are as elusive.

    It is only you, and a few others, who choose to deny these reports. I could send you many reports, too many to mention. All you will do is to deny every one of them. With you it is a pointless exercise. Besides, whether you choose to deny them doesn't
    alter the factual basis of most of these reports. Your views do not matter to me, or to anyone concerned with truth.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Tue Dec 20 20:10:52 2022
    On 12/20/2022 7:59 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 10:47:26 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    Africa's Apartheid is total non-sense.

    dk

    True, but then nobody was comparing Israel to South Africa. But to deny that a complicit persecution, engineered quietly by those at the very top, doesn't take place, flies in the face of far too many reports to even be considered as remotely
    intelligent or honest. This implies nothing about the the majority of ordinary citizens who live there. And neither does it imply anything about the citizens of many other countries either. But governments in democratic countries are voted in. Some even
    vote for the end of democracy.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    You always make these vague charges citing undocumented sources ("too many reports", "thousands agree"). There is no substance to what you say. Nothing that can be refuted. Except that you said Israel practices Apartheid, which it obviously doesn't.
    You sound just like the standard conspiracy theorists, who are as elusive.

    It is only you, and a few others, who choose to deny these reports. I could send you many reports, too many to mention. All you will do is to deny every one of them. With you it is a pointless exercise. Besides, whether you choose to deny them doesn't
    alter the factual basis of most of these reports. Your views do not matter to me, or to anyone concerned with truth.

    Ray Hall, Taree


    More of the same.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Dec 20 17:11:00 2022
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 11:42:34 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

    The charge that every little criticism of Israel is labeled antisemitic by Jews is, in fact, a common antisemitic trope. Nobody ever said that every criticism of Israel is antisemitic or anti-Zionist. There are many people on the Left who don't think
    Israel should exist as a Jewish homeland, at least in theory. This belief goes a long way toward justifying Palestinian violence and intransigence in the so-called peace process. The idea that European Jews marched into the Holy Land and displaced the
    native Palestinian population is ludicrous. When I see someone who frequently, virulently, and exclusively expresses one-sided hatred for Israel, guess what I think is likely to be true about that person. Why do I never see Andy or Ray, or Roger Waters
    criticize Palestinian violence and intransigence? Why?

    Mostly because they represent the oppressed, So obvious I fail to see why you are so melodramatic about it. And to narrow it down to three people is once again an attempt to minimise the opposition to the Israeli persecution of a suppressed people. Dream
    on.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Tue Dec 20 21:15:55 2022
    On 12/20/2022 8:11 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 11:42:34 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

    The charge that every little criticism of Israel is labeled antisemitic by Jews is, in fact, a common antisemitic trope. Nobody ever said that every criticism of Israel is antisemitic or anti-Zionist. There are many people on the Left who don't think
    Israel should exist as a Jewish homeland, at least in theory. This belief goes a long way toward justifying Palestinian violence and intransigence in the so-called peace process. The idea that European Jews marched into the Holy Land and displaced the
    native Palestinian population is ludicrous. When I see someone who frequently, virulently, and exclusively expresses one-sided hatred for Israel, guess what I think is likely to be true about that person. Why do I never see Andy or Ray, or Roger Waters
    criticize Palestinian violence and intransigence? Why?

    Mostly because they represent the oppressed, So obvious I fail to see why you are so melodramatic about it. And to narrow it down to three people is once again an attempt to minimise the opposition to the Israeli persecution of a suppressed people.
    Dream on.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    I do have a dream. It's a dream that I am virtually certain will come true. That is, there will never be a Palestinian state in existence of the sort envisioned by the two-state advocates. As non-Palestinian Arab states move towards normalizing
    relations with Israel, they have and will continue to lose patience with Palestinian violence and intransigence. Some Saudi prince has already proposed that parts of the West Bank be rolled into the already-existing Palestinian state Jordan. I think
    that is more like to happen than a separate Palestinian state. It's also possible that the status quo will continue for a long time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Wed Dec 21 01:02:58 2022
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 02:16:06 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    I do have a dream. It's a dream that I am virtually certain will come true. That is, there will never be a Palestinian state in existence of the sort envisioned by the two-state advocates. As non-Palestinian Arab states move towards normalizing
    relations with Israel, they have and will continue to lose patience with Palestinian violence and intransigence. Some Saudi prince has already proposed that parts of the West Bank be rolled into the already-existing Palestinian state Jordan. I think that
    is more like to happen than a separate Palestinian state. It's also possible that the status quo will continue for a long time.

    My understanding of the State of Israel is what is in Wiki - that in 1947 following the British Mandate the United Nations adopted the Partition Plan for Palestine recommending the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, and an 
    internationalized Jerusalem. Partition was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but rejected by Palestinian Arab leaders and the Arab states. I don't have a dream as such, but of course I fully support a homeland for the Jewish people. You could blame the
    Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution, which is something I imagine they regret given what has happened since. I don't ever see a 2 state solution happening now, so the misery of the occupation will just go on and
    on. You can't turn back time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 21 02:33:36 2022
    Op woensdag 21 december 2022 om 03:16:06 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    It's also possible that the status quo will continue for a long time.

    It won't. Israel will expand and ghetto-forming will continue.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Wed Dec 21 06:40:31 2022
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Mittwoch, 21. Dezember 2022 um 11:33:39 UTC+1:
    Op woensdag 21 december 2022 om 03:16:06 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
    It's also possible that the status quo will continue for a long time.
    It won't. Israel will expand and ghetto-forming will continue.

    Henk

    "Ghetto-forming"? ;D

    Tell me Henk, what ghettos are you talking about? Are you talking about the former jewish ghettos in the arab countries which don't exist anymore since the arabs expelled almost all of their jews/since the jews left the arab countries because of
    antisemitism? (For anyone willing to expand his knowledge: read Georges Bensoussan's "Jews in arab countries - the great uprooting". https://www.amazon.com/Jews-Arab-Countries-Uprooting-Antisemitism/dp/025303857X)

    The arab-israelis (I am not including mizrahim here) have the same rights as the jews in Israel - they can vote, they can be elected in the Knesset, they work as doctors and lawyers etc.

    What about the women and homosexuals in Palestine? Or what about the christians in palestine? Do they have the same rights as the muslims? The Palestinian "Ahmad Abu Maria" I mentioned earlier in this thread was granted asylum by Israel. Tell me Henk,
    where is the apartheid? Why do palestinian homosexuals flee to Israel? Why do palestinians kill their own just for being a homosexual? Who are the fascists, Henk?

    It's funny that idiots like you tend to take the word of the world's worst abusers of human rights for granted - Palestinian Propagandists.

    You know what will continue, Henk? Antisemitism. And you are doing your best to further this. And you know what else will continue with people like you siding with the world's worst abusers of human rights against Israel? Palestinians killing homosexuals
    and apostates and stabbing innocent israeli civilians etc. What a gift for humanity you are Henk ;D

    I am not here to discuss anything btw, there isn't anything to discuss with antisemites (like Henk, Andy and Ray etc). I haven't even read any messages after mine (besides Henk's and some of Frank's) - I am just here to state facts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Dec 21 09:20:17 2022
    On 12/21/2022 4:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 02:16:06 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    I do have a dream. It's a dream that I am virtually certain will come true. That is, there will never be a Palestinian state in existence of the sort envisioned by the two-state advocates. As non-Palestinian Arab states move towards normalizing
    relations with Israel, they have and will continue to lose patience with Palestinian violence and intransigence. Some Saudi prince has already proposed that parts of the West Bank be rolled into the already-existing Palestinian state Jordan. I think that
    is more like to happen than a separate Palestinian state. It's also possible that the status quo will continue for a long time.

    My understanding of the State of Israel is what is in Wiki - that in 1947 following the British Mandate the United Nations adopted the Partition Plan for Palestine recommending the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, and an 
    internationalized Jerusalem. Partition was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but rejected by Palestinian Arab leaders and the Arab states. I don't have a dream as such, but of course I fully support a homeland for the Jewish people. You could blame the
    Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution, which is something I imagine they regret given what has happened since. I don't ever see a 2 state solution happening now, so the misery of the occupation will just go on and
    on. You can't turn back time.

    You have overlooked the fact that the Palestinian leadership doesn't want a two-state solution. They want to destroy Israel. It's no secret, they say so. If the Israeli people came to believe that the Palestinians really would live in peace with
    Israel if they got their state, I bet 3/4 of the Israeli people would support it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Wed Dec 21 06:51:16 2022
    hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Mittwoch, 21. Dezember 2022 um 11:33:39 UTC+1:
    Op woensdag 21 december 2022 om 03:16:06 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
    It's also possible that the status quo will continue for a long time.
    It won't. Israel will expand and ghetto-forming will continue.

    Henk

    According to Henk's logic: The Israelis are the new Nazis ;D

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Wed Dec 21 06:43:32 2022
    Frank Berger schrieb am Mittwoch, 21. Dezember 2022 um 15:20:27 UTC+1:
    On 12/21/2022 4:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 02:16:06 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    I do have a dream. It's a dream that I am virtually certain will come true. That is, there will never be a Palestinian state in existence of the sort envisioned by the two-state advocates. As non-Palestinian Arab states move towards normalizing
    relations with Israel, they have and will continue to lose patience with Palestinian violence and intransigence. Some Saudi prince has already proposed that parts of the West Bank be rolled into the already-existing Palestinian state Jordan. I think that
    is more like to happen than a separate Palestinian state. It's also possible that the status quo will continue for a long time.

    My understanding of the State of Israel is what is in Wiki - that in 1947 following the British Mandate the United Nations adopted the Partition Plan for Palestine recommending the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, and an
    internationalized Jerusalem. Partition was accepted by the Jewish leadership, but rejected by Palestinian Arab leaders and the Arab states. I don't have a dream as such, but of course I fully support a homeland for the Jewish people. You could blame the
    Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution, which is something I imagine they regret given what has happened since. I don't ever see a 2 state solution happening now, so the misery of the occupation will just go on and
    on. You can't turn back time.
    You have overlooked the fact that the Palestinian leadership doesn't want a two-state solution. They want to destroy Israel. It's no secret, they say so. If the Israeli people came to believe that the Palestinians really would live in peace with Israel
    if they got their state, I bet 3/4 of the Israeli people would support it.

    Well, Frank, you are arguing with an antisemite - he will overlook everything that would prove him wrong.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Wed Dec 21 07:03:53 2022
    On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 6:58:38 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:

    Have you ever seen a recent map of the West Bank?

    The West Bank is still there. It hasn't moved one inch.

    If you have, you clearly haven't understood the
    consequences.

    This sounds very cryptic. Can you explain the
    "consequences"?

    Thanks!

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 21 06:58:36 2022
    I am not here to discuss anything btw, there isn't anything to discuss with antisemites (like Henk, Andy and Ray etc). I haven't even read any messages after mine (besides Henk's and some of Frank's) - I am just here to state facts.

    Have you ever seen a recent map of the West Bank? If you have, you clearly haven't understood the consequences.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 21 07:51:55 2022
    Op woensdag 21 december 2022 om 16:03:56 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

    This sounds very cryptic. Can you explain the
    "consequences"?

    The area under Palestinian civilian control is a large collection of strictly separated regions and sub-regions. Further colonisation will lead to further fragmentation and further interfere with movement between Palestinians. The immediate consequence
    is a strengthening of the ghetto-formation that has already been initiated.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 21 10:40:21 2022
    T24gMTIvMjEvMjAyMiA5OjU4IEFNLCBIVCB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+PiBJIGFtIG5vdCBoZXJl IHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgYW55dGhpbmcgYnR3LCB0aGVyZSBpc24ndCBhbnl0aGluZyB0byBkaXNj dXNzIHdpdGggYW50aXNlbWl0ZXMgKGxpa2UgSGVuaywgQW5keSBhbmQgUmF5IGV0YykuIEkg aGF2ZW4ndCBldmVuIHJlYWQgYW55IG1lc3NhZ2VzIGFmdGVyIG1pbmUgKGJlc2lkZXMgSGVu aydzIGFuZCBzb21lIG9mIEZyYW5rJ3MpIC0gSSBhbSBqdXN0IGhlcmUgdG8gc3RhdGUgZmFj dHMuDQo+IA0KPiBIYXZlIHlvdSBldmVyIHNlZW4gYSByZWNlbnQgbWFwIG9mIHRoZSBXZXN0 IEJhbms/IElmIHlvdSBoYXZlLCB5b3UgY2xlYXJseSBoYXZlbid0IHVuZGVyc3Rvb2QgdGhl IGNvbnNlcXVlbmNlcy4NCj4gDQo+IEhlbmsNCg0KVGhlIHByb2JsZW0gaXMgeW91IGhhdmUg YWxyZWFkeSBkZWNpZGVkIHRoYXQgdGhlIFdlc3QgQmFuayBpcyB0aGUgbmF0dXJhbCBvciBs ZWdhbCBvciBjb252ZW5pZW50IG9yIHNvbWV0aGluZyBob21lbGFuZCBvZiB0aGUgUGFsZXN0 aW5pYW4gcGVvcGxlLiAgSWYgeW91IHN0YXJ0IGZyb20gdGhlIHByb3Bvc2l0aW9uIHRoYXQg dGhlIGxhbmQgaXMgZGlzcHV0ZWQgYW5kIG5vdCBvY2N1cGllZCwgdGhlbiB0aGVyZSdzIGEg ZGlmZmVyZW50IHN0b3J5LiAgQmVzaWRlcyBpZiBvbmUgYWNjZXB0cyB0aGUgV0IgYXMgcmln aHRmdWxseSBQYWxlc3RpbmlhbiB0aGFuIHdoeSBpc24ndCBhbGwgb2YgSXNyYWVsPyAgSWYg eW91IHNheSwgd2VsbCwgSXNyYWVsIGlzIGEgZG9uZSBkZWFsIGFuZCBoYXMgdG8gYmUgYWNj ZXB0ZWQsIHRlbGwgdGhhdCB0byB0aGUgUEEuICBJZiB5b3Ugc2F5IElzcmFlbCBpcyBhIGRv bmUgZGVhbCwgdGhlbiBzbyBhcmUgdGhlIGxhcmdlIEpld2lzaCBzZXR0bGVtZW50cyBpbiB0 aGUgV0IuICBUaGV5IHdpbGwgbmV2ZXIgYmUgZGlzbWFudGxlZC4gIFRoZXkgd2lsbCBldmVu dHVhbGx5IGJlY29tZSBwYXJ0IG9mIElzcmFlbC4gIEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBpZiB0aGUgTmV0 YW55YWh1IGdvdmVybm1lbnQgd2lsbCBkbyB0aGlzLCBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIHNvLiAgQXMg SSBzYWlkIGJlZm9yZSwgZXZlbnR1YWxseSB0aGUgd29ybGQtd2lkZSBzdXBwb3J0IGZvciBh IHNlcGFyYXRlIFBhbGVzdGluaWFuIHN0YXRlIHdpbGwgd2FuZSwgYW5kIGluY29ycG9yYXRp bmcgdGhlIHNldHRsZW1lbnRzIHdpbGwgYmUgbGVzcyBkaWZmaWN1bHQgZm9yIElzcmFlbC4g IFRoZSBFVSB3aWxsIGJlIHRoZSBsYXN0IHRvIGZhbGwgaW4gbGluZSwgcHJvYmFibHkuICBJ dCdzIGRpZmZpY3VsdCBmb3IgaXRzIGFkdm9jYXRlcyB0byBhZG1pdCB0aGF0IHRoZSB0d28t c3RhdGUgc29sdXRpb24sIHNvIGxvbmcgYXJkZW50bHkgc3VwcG9ydGVkIGJ5IHBlb3BsZSBv dXRzaWRlIHRoZSBhcmVhLCB3YXMgYSBub24tc3RhcnRlci4NCg==

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Wed Dec 21 08:56:24 2022
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 14:20:27 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    You have overlooked the fact that the Palestinian leadership doesn't want a two-state solution. They want to destroy Israel. It's no secret, they say so. If the Israeli people came to believe that the Palestinians really would live in peace with Israel
    if they got their state, I bet 3/4 of the Israeli people would support it.

    Thanks for the reply, Frank. My take on the 2 state solution was that following the Oslo Accord, Arafat eventually came round to accepting it but that when the papers were due to be finalised, Rabin was murdered by Yigal Amir, a right wing extremist, to
    prevent the Oslo Accord taking place and to maintain the status quo with the Israeli government in total control. I admit this is a big simplification because the Arab nations were partly against it and the more militant Palestinians also. But in the
    1990s there was some momentum for this 2 state solution to happen - after all, Nobel Peace Prizes were awarded in the hope it would settle the problem. After the assassination no further progress happened.

    What's your take on this? I'd welcome a more detailed explanation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 21 08:22:59 2022
    Op woensdag 21 december 2022 om 16:40:33 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
    On 12/21/2022 9:58 AM, HT wrote:

    I am not here to discuss anything btw, there isn't anything to discuss with antisemites (like Henk, Andy and Ray etc). I haven't even read any messages after mine (besides Henk's and some of Frank's) - I am just here to state facts.

    Have you ever seen a recent map of the West Bank? If you have, you clearly haven't understood the consequences.

    Henk
    The problem is you have already decided that the West Bank is the natural or legal or convenient or something homeland of the Palestinian people. If you start from the proposition that the land is disputed and not occupied, then there's a different
    story. Besides if one accepts the WB as rightfully Palestinian than why isn't all of Israel? If you say, well, Israel is a done deal and has to be accepted, tell that to the PA. If you say Israel is a done deal, then so are the large Jewish settlements
    in the WB. They will never be dismantled. They will eventually become part of Israel. I don't know if the Netanyahu government will do this, I don't think so. As I said before, eventually the world-wide support for a separate Palestinian state will wane,
    and incorporating the settlements will be less difficult for Israel. The EU will be the last to fall in line, probably. It's difficult for its advocates to admit that the two-state solution, so long ardently supported by people outside the area, was a
    non-starter.

    I agree. That's the way it will probably go. Fragmentation of the West Bank makes any other outcome highly unlikely.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Dec 21 12:38:34 2022
    On 12/21/2022 11:56 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 21 December 2022 at 14:20:27 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    You have overlooked the fact that the Palestinian leadership doesn't want a two-state solution. They want to destroy Israel. It's no secret, they say so. If the Israeli people came to believe that the Palestinians really would live in peace with
    Israel if they got their state, I bet 3/4 of the Israeli people would support it.

    Thanks for the reply, Frank. My take on the 2 state solution was that following the Oslo Accord, Arafat eventually came round to accepting it but that when the papers were due to be finalised, Rabin was murdered by Yigal Amir, a right wing extremist,
    to prevent the Oslo Accord taking place and to maintain the status quo with the Israeli government in total control. I admit this is a big simplification because the Arab nations were partly against it and the more militant Palestinians also. But in the
    1990s there was some momentum for this 2 state solution to happen - after all, Nobel Peace Prizes were awarded in the hope it would settle the problem. After the assassination no further progress happened.

    What's your take on this? I'd welcome a more detailed explanation.

    You can read about Oslo in Wikipedia. I am not expert in the details, but the most import thing, I think, was that it was all subject to negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on the most "difficult" issues - borders and the status of
    Jerusalem. No progress was ever made. We are all free to blame whichever side we like for that. UN resolution 242 was referenced. The two sides don't even agree on the meaning of that resolution. The anti-Israel side insists it means Israel is
    required to withdraw to pre-1967 borders unconditionally. Israel supporters (and statesmen who were actually involved in the drafting of the resolution) hold that the required withdrawal and its extent were dependent on subsequent negotiations. I don't
    think think the Rabin assassination was the determining factor. I also don't think Arafat ever accepted anything. He said different things to the Western and Arab press.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Dec 22 20:29:10 2022
    On 12/21/22 1:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    You could blame the Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution.

    Yes, we could, and should. The proposal bruited to roll them into Jordan
    is an idea that should have happened long ago, but I don't know whether
    Jordan would agree without the complete removal of the current
    Palestinian 'leadership'.


    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Thu Dec 22 20:24:37 2022
    On 12/20/22 4:42 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    The idea that European Jews marched into the Holy Land and displaced the native Palestinian population is ludicrous.

    Precisely. Why, I wonder, don't the Israel haters study a little
    history? Oh wait.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Dec 22 20:20:56 2022
    On 12/20/22 12:32 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 December 2022 at 17:28:22 UTC, Bob Harper wrote:
    The two of you (Andy and Ray) are making a distinction without a real
    difference. 'Anti-Zionism' and antisemitism are, if not identical, then
    identical twins, sharing the same mental DNA, and both odious.

    Bob Harper

    I'm sorry, Bob, but I'm sure you know that thousands, and other on this ng, agree with Ray and myself that antisemitism and criticism of the State of Israel are two completely different things. You may take the view that they are identical, but that's
    nothing more than a personal opinion.

    Which is precisely what your view is. Surely you can understand that.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Thu Dec 22 23:44:39 2022
    On Friday, 23 December 2022 at 15:24:41 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/20/22 4:42 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    The idea that European Jews marched into the Holy Land and displaced the native Palestinian population is ludicrous.
    Precisely. Why, I wonder, don't the Israel haters study a little
    history? Oh wait.

    Bob Harper

    Why oh why don't those who will defend a country no matter what, study the facts as given in many reports. Of which every one will be denied here by the usual suspects. No wonder that the holocaust deniers see ample licence to ignore facts also. Are they
    right too? Oh wait .... there are those right wing bastards again ....

    As for history, I have little time for it. Or ever will have.

    In addition, using inflammatory terms such as "Israel haters" immediately identifies those on the defensive. I hate no country, or their people. But I do detest many at the very top who wield unnecessary force, by various means, to quell resistance,
    which in many cases is wholly justified. And equating Zionism with anti-semitism is yet another vile practice, which will only serve to inflame many people, including many Jewish people. Also many people in this group.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Fri Dec 23 07:59:41 2022
    On 12/23/2022 2:44 AM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, 23 December 2022 at 15:24:41 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/20/22 4:42 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    The idea that European Jews marched into the Holy Land and displaced the >>> native Palestinian population is ludicrous.
    Precisely. Why, I wonder, don't the Israel haters study a little
    history? Oh wait.

    Bob Harper

    Why oh why don't those who will defend a country no matter what, study the facts as given in many reports. Of which every one will be denied here by the usual suspects. No wonder that the holocaust deniers see ample licence to ignore facts also. Are
    they right too? Oh wait .... there are those right wing bastards again ....

    As for history, I have little time for it. Or ever will have.

    In addition, using inflammatory terms such as "Israel haters" immediately identifies those on the defensive. I hate no country, or their people. But I do detest many at the very top who wield unnecessary force, by various means, to quell resistance,
    which in many cases is wholly justified. And equating Zionism with anti-semitism is yet another vile practice, which will only serve to inflame many people, including many Jewish people. Also many people in this group.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Resistance being bombing buses, restaurants. Justified. Right.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Fri Dec 23 12:38:58 2022
    On 12/23/2022 12:29 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, 23 December 2022 at 23:59:50 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/23/2022 2:44 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, 23 December 2022 at 15:24:41 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/20/22 4:42 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    The idea that European Jews marched into the Holy Land and displaced the >>>>> native Palestinian population is ludicrous.
    Precisely. Why, I wonder, don't the Israel haters study a little
    history? Oh wait.

    Bob Harper

    Why oh why don't those who will defend a country no matter what, study the facts as given in many reports. Of which every one will be denied here by the usual suspects. No wonder that the holocaust deniers see ample licence to ignore facts also. Are
    they right too? Oh wait .... there are those right wing bastards again ....

    As for history, I have little time for it. Or ever will haveby aaaaa
    6
    In addition, using inflammatory terms such as "Israel haters" immediately identifies those on the defensive. I hate no country, or their people. But I do detest many at the very top who wield unnecessary force, by various means, to quell resistance,
    which in many cases is wholly justified. And equating Zionism with anti-semitism is yet another vile practice, which will only serve to inflame many people, including many Jewish people. Also many people in this group.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    Resistance being bombing buses, restaurants. Justified. Right.

    More of the same old claptrap.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Little by little, you reveal your true self.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Fri Dec 23 09:29:58 2022
    On Friday, 23 December 2022 at 23:59:50 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/23/2022 2:44 AM, raymond....gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, 23 December 2022 at 15:24:41 UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/20/22 4:42 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    The idea that European Jews marched into the Holy Land and displaced the >>> native Palestinian population is ludicrous.
    Precisely. Why, I wonder, don't the Israel haters study a little
    history? Oh wait.

    Bob Harper

    Why oh why don't those who will defend a country no matter what, study the facts as given in many reports. Of which every one will be denied here by the usual suspects. No wonder that the holocaust deniers see ample licence to ignore facts also. Are
    they right too? Oh wait .... there are those right wing bastards again ....

    As for history, I have little time for it. Or ever will haveby aaaaa
    6
    In addition, using inflammatory terms such as "Israel haters" immediately identifies those on the defensive. I hate no country, or their people. But I do detest many at the very top who wield unnecessary force, by various means, to quell resistance,
    which in many cases is wholly justified. And equating Zionism with anti-semitism is yet another vile practice, which will only serve to inflame many people, including many Jewish people. Also many people in this group.

    Ray Hall, Taree
    Resistance being bombing buses, restaurants. Justified. Right.

    More of the same old claptrap.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From number_six@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Fri Dec 23 13:23:12 2022
    On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 8:29:14 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/21/22 1:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    You could blame the Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution.

    Yes, we could, and should. The proposal bruited to roll them into Jordan
    is an idea that should have happened long ago, but I don't know whether Jordan would agree without the complete removal of the current
    Palestinian 'leadership'.


    Bob Harper
    Back in king Hussein's day, he got exasperated with the PLO and threw them out. Hamas is better...but only marginally.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From number_six@21:1/5 to raymond on Fri Dec 23 13:15:51 2022
    On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 11:44:42 PM UTC-8, raymond wrote:
    As for history, I have little time for it. Or ever will have.

    But history has time for you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 23 17:02:41 2022
    On 12/23/22 1:23 PM, number_six wrote:
    On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 8:29:14 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/21/22 1:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    You could blame the Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution.

    Yes, we could, and should. The proposal bruited to roll them into Jordan
    is an idea that should have happened long ago, but I don't know whether
    Jordan would agree without the complete removal of the current
    Palestinian 'leadership'.


    Bob Harper
    Back in king Hussein's day, he got exasperated with the PLO and threw them out.
    Hamas is better...but only marginally.

    Really? Worse, I'd have thought.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From number_six@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Fri Dec 23 18:53:12 2022
    On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 5:02:46 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/23/22 1:23 PM, number_six wrote:
    On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 8:29:14 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/21/22 1:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    You could blame the Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution.

    Yes, we could, and should. The proposal bruited to roll them into Jordan >> is an idea that should have happened long ago, but I don't know whether
    Jordan would agree without the complete removal of the current
    Palestinian 'leadership'.


    Bob Harper
    Back in king Hussein's day, he got exasperated with the PLO and threw them out.
    Hamas is better...but only marginally.
    Really? Worse, I'd have thought.

    Bob Harper
    Close call. I was thinking along these lines --
    (1) graft, (2) atrocity, and (3) bad faith negotiation.
    other metrics could be considered.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 23 22:39:41 2022
    On 2022-12-24 02:53:12 +0000, number_six said:

    On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 5:02:46 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/23/22 1:23 PM, number_six wrote:
    On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 8:29:14 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/21/22 1:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    You could blame the Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the
    failure of the 2 state solution.

    Yes, we could, and should. The proposal bruited to roll them into Jordan >>>> is an idea that should have happened long ago, but I don't know whether >>>> Jordan would agree without the complete removal of the current
    Palestinian 'leadership'.


    Bob Harper
    Back in king Hussein's day, he got exasperated with the PLO and threw them out.
    Hamas is better...but only marginally.
    Really? Worse, I'd have thought.

    Bob Harper
    Close call. I was thinking along these lines --
    (1) graft, (2) atrocity, and (3) bad faith negotiation.
    other metrics could be considered.

    Gee, with all you people here working on it, I'd have figured you'd
    already solved how to make peace in the Middle East. C'mon! Get a
    move on!

    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 24 18:05:47 2022
    On 12/23/2022 9:53 PM, number_six wrote:
    On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 5:02:46 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/23/22 1:23 PM, number_six wrote:
    On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 8:29:14 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/21/22 1:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    You could blame the Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution.

    Yes, we could, and should. The proposal bruited to roll them into Jordan >>>> is an idea that should have happened long ago, but I don't know whether >>>> Jordan would agree without the complete removal of the current
    Palestinian 'leadership'.


    Bob Harper
    Back in king Hussein's day, he got exasperated with the PLO and threw them out.
    Hamas is better...but only marginally.
    Really? Worse, I'd have thought.

    Bob Harper
    Close call. I was thinking along these lines --
    (1) graft, (2) atrocity, and (3) bad faith negotiation.
    other metrics could be considered.

    Talk about a distinction without a difference. Geez.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Sun Dec 25 00:31:22 2022
    On 12/24/2022 6:05 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 12/23/2022 9:53 PM, number_six wrote:
    On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 5:02:46 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 12/23/22 1:23 PM, number_six wrote:
    On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 8:29:14 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote: >>>>> On 12/21/22 1:02 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    You could blame the Palestinian Arab leaders at the time for the failure of the 2 state solution.

    Yes, we could, and should. The proposal bruited to roll them into Jordan >>>>> is an idea that should have happened long ago, but I don't know whether >>>>> Jordan would agree without the complete removal of the current
    Palestinian 'leadership'.


    Bob Harper
    Back in king Hussein's day, he got exasperated with the PLO and threw them out.
    Hamas is better...but only marginally.
    Really? Worse, I'd have thought.

    Bob Harper
    Close call.  I was thinking along these lines --
    (1) graft, (2) atrocity, and (3) bad faith negotiation.
    other metrics could be considered.

    Talk about a distinction without a difference.  Geez.

    Senior Hamas official Mahmoud Al-Zahar vowed last week that not only will “Palestine” be liberated; after the “Battle of the Promise of the Hereafter,” there will be no oppression, no Zionism, and no more “treacherous Christianity.”

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)