Let me explain - I was taking the opportunity to explore some of the recesses of my CD collection, listened to Stravinsky’s Apollo as
conducted by Dutoit - and I found it just mildly interesting. Since
folks here seem to be in a philosophical mood I got to musing: It seems
that I like Stravinsky’s work in reverse chronological order (roughly):
I adore Firebird, enjoy Petrushka, like Le Sacre, and appreciate Le
Noces. Of all the later works, I only really like Pulcinella, the Violin Concerto and Symphony of Psalms.
All of the rest (Apollo, Orpheus, Dumbarton Oaks, Concerto for piano, Concerto in D, etc, etc) seem uninspired, routine, even just
note-spinning. Not that they are well known, but these same works if by (say) Martinu would be completely obscure.
Before I go overboard with philosophy - to bring it back to recordings - maybe I just haven’t heard these works in strong enough versions. I have interpretations by Dutoit, Marriner, Craft and Stravinsky himself - none
of them are the most individual conductors. Any feedback and suggestions
for more inspiring recordings would be gratefully accepted!
And to continue musing, it might be possible that, as Richard Taruskin alleged, Stravinsky appropriated Russian melodies for his early works
and then had no great talent for thematic invention. Or did he in the
name of modernism change his styles to ones to which he is less suited
(like Schoenberg did). Or was he a case like Richard Strauss that
started brilliantly then just cranked out works?
Or maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about - after all, I’m NotSure.
On Friday, 18 November 2022 at 13:08:57 UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:frankly have little enthusiasm to explore them).
Let me explain - I was taking the opportunity to explore some of the recesses of my CD collection, listened to Stravinsky’s Apollo as conducted by Dutoit - and I found it just mildly interesting. Since
folks here seem to be in a philosophical mood I got to musing: It seems that I like Stravinsky’s work in reverse chronological order (roughly): I adore Firebird, enjoy Petrushka, like Le Sacre, and appreciate Le
Noces. Of all the later works, I only really like Pulcinella, the Violin Concerto and Symphony of Psalms.
All of the rest (Apollo, Orpheus, Dumbarton Oaks, Concerto for piano, Concerto in D, etc, etc) seem uninspired, routine, even just note-spinning. Not that they are well known, but these same works if by (say) Martinu would be completely obscure.
Before I go overboard with philosophy - to bring it back to recordings - maybe I just haven’t heard these works in strong enough versions. I have interpretations by Dutoit, Marriner, Craft and Stravinsky himself - none of them are the most individual conductors. Any feedback and suggestions for more inspiring recordings would be gratefully accepted!
And to continue musing, it might be possible that, as Richard Taruskin alleged, Stravinsky appropriated Russian melodies for his early works
and then had no great talent for thematic invention. Or did he in the
name of modernism change his styles to ones to which he is less suited (like Schoenberg did). Or was he a case like Richard Strauss that
started brilliantly then just cranked out works?
Or maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about - after all, I’m NotSure.Stravinsky became rightly famous with his early period ballets, and then much of his neo-classical works, but there seems to be a tapering off of an enormous talent for well crafted works over a long span. I don't know much about his serial works (and
I have the big Stravinsky box, largely led by the composer himself, but find Craft quite uninspiring. I first became acquainted with Stravinsky through Colin Davis on Philips, and Ansermet on Decca.composers). Chailly is probably worth a punt maybe with his IS box, maybe Salonen i some works, but increasingly it pays to cherry pick this composer. Works you omitted that I like especially, are Renard, Histoire du Soldat, In C, Three Movements, Wind
Markevitch (Le Sacre, Psalms, Histoire) and other conductors like Ancerl, have made some tremendous recordings, including Boulez. You cannot get by just churning out recordings of this composer as is the modern tendency (also applies to many other
His star has fallen a bit, but his music can be very impactful live.
Ray Hall, Taree
On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 7:27:18 AM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:and frankly have little enthusiasm to explore them).
On Friday, 18 November 2022 at 13:08:57 UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:
Let me explain - I was taking the opportunity to explore some of the recesses of my CD collection, listened to Stravinsky’s Apollo as conducted by Dutoit - and I found it just mildly interesting. Since folks here seem to be in a philosophical mood I got to musing: It seems that I like Stravinsky’s work in reverse chronological order (roughly):
I adore Firebird, enjoy Petrushka, like Le Sacre, and appreciate Le Noces. Of all the later works, I only really like Pulcinella, the Violin Concerto and Symphony of Psalms.
All of the rest (Apollo, Orpheus, Dumbarton Oaks, Concerto for piano, Concerto in D, etc, etc) seem uninspired, routine, even just note-spinning. Not that they are well known, but these same works if by (say) Martinu would be completely obscure.
Before I go overboard with philosophy - to bring it back to recordings - maybe I just haven’t heard these works in strong enough versions. I have
interpretations by Dutoit, Marriner, Craft and Stravinsky himself - none of them are the most individual conductors. Any feedback and suggestions for more inspiring recordings would be gratefully accepted!
And to continue musing, it might be possible that, as Richard Taruskin alleged, Stravinsky appropriated Russian melodies for his early works and then had no great talent for thematic invention. Or did he in the name of modernism change his styles to ones to which he is less suited (like Schoenberg did). Or was he a case like Richard Strauss that started brilliantly then just cranked out works?
Or maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about - after all, I’m NotSure.Stravinsky became rightly famous with his early period ballets, and then much of his neo-classical works, but there seems to be a tapering off of an enormous talent for well crafted works over a long span. I don't know much about his serial works (
composers). Chailly is probably worth a punt maybe with his IS box, maybe Salonen i some works, but increasingly it pays to cherry pick this composer. Works you omitted that I like especially, are Renard, Histoire du Soldat, In C, Three Movements, WindI have the big Stravinsky box, largely led by the composer himself, but find Craft quite uninspiring. I first became acquainted with Stravinsky through Colin Davis on Philips, and Ansermet on Decca.
Markevitch (Le Sacre, Psalms, Histoire) and other conductors like Ancerl, have made some tremendous recordings, including Boulez. You cannot get by just churning out recordings of this composer as is the modern tendency (also applies to many other
ballet). Agon is amazing (MTT). Oedipus, Jeu de Cartes. The piano cto used in the Rubies ballet.His star has fallen a bit, but his music can be very impactful live.
Ray Hall, TareeI agree with Ray. Salonen's IS recordings are excellent. BTW I don't agree with the op's assenssment of IS's career. I never listen to the 'Russian' ballets and much prefer the neo-classical period. Apollo is a wonderful piece of music (and Balanchine
the label "neo-classical" is misleading, suggesting a classical European origin which is only part of the story. Stavinsky wasn't in the slightest part of the Austro-German cultural heritage. He was always Russian.
On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 2:34:23 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
the label "neo-classical" is misleading, suggesting a classical European origin which is only part of the story. Stavinsky wasn't in the slightest part of the Austro-German cultural heritage. He was always Russian.
The label neo-classical' was never intended to refer to Austro-German things. Stravinsky and Balanchine were referring to French courtly classicism.
I've always like the assessment by Milton Caine (a previous ARGO editor):
...his orchestration exhibits "absolute
clarity of thought and the spare means
to express that thought...No matter how
large an orchestra he employs, the
textures are never cloudy or muddy,
the instrumentation sharp, clear,
distinct."
Let me explain - I was taking the opportunity to explore some of the recesses of my CD collection, listened to Stravinsky’s Apollo as
conducted by Dutoit - and I found it just mildly interesting. Since
folks here seem to be in a philosophical mood I got to musing: It seems
that I like Stravinsky’s work in reverse chronological order (roughly):
I adore Firebird, enjoy Petrushka, like Le Sacre, and appreciate Le
Noces. Of all the later works, I only really like Pulcinella, the Violin Concerto and Symphony of Psalms.
All of the rest (Apollo, Orpheus, Dumbarton Oaks, Concerto for piano, Concerto in D, etc, etc) seem uninspired, routine, even just
note-spinning. Not that they are well known, but these same works if by (say) Martinu would be completely obscure.
Before I go overboard with philosophy - to bring it back to recordings - maybe I just haven’t heard these works in strong enough versions. I have interpretations by Dutoit, Marriner, Craft and Stravinsky himself - none
of them are the most individual conductors. Any feedback and suggestions
for more inspiring recordings would be gratefully accepted!
And to continue musing, it might be possible that, as Richard Taruskin alleged, Stravinsky appropriated Russian melodies for his early works
and then had no great talent for thematic invention. Or did he in the
name of modernism change his styles to ones to which he is less suited
(like Schoenberg did). Or was he a case like Richard Strauss that
started brilliantly then just cranked out works?
Or maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about - after all, I’m NotSure.
The great thing is that none of us, I believe, are generally obligated to hear music we don't like.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:08:57 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrotefashionable, knee-jerk "atonality bad" views that are not only pervasive, but seemingly encouraged by academics and musicians who ought to know better, I'm not surprised at reading this.
... I like Stravinsky’s work in reverse chronological order (roughly):
I adore Firebird, enjoy Petrushka, like Le Sacre, and appreciate Le
Noces. Of all the later works, I only really like Pulcinella, the Violin
Concerto and Symphony of Psalms.
All of the rest (Apollo, Orpheus, Dumbarton Oaks, Concerto for piano,
Concerto in D, etc, etc) seem uninspired, routine, even just
note-spinning.
That later Stravinsky isn't as popular is no surprise, but that popularity does not correlate with quality... Stravinsky's inventiveness, energy, and compelling streak of weirdness developed prodigiously his whole career long. However, given the
It may very well be that you simply don't get Stravinsky's later music. Which is fine! None of us are born knowing and appreciating everything. ... Again, your tastes may differ. The great thing is that none of us, I believe, are generally obligated tohear music we don't like.
On 11/18/22 5:56 PM, Néstor Castiglione wrote:fashionable, knee-jerk "atonality bad" views that are not only pervasive, but seemingly encouraged by academics and musicians who ought to know better, I'm not surprised at reading this.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:08:57 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote
... I like Stravinsky’s work in reverse chronological order (roughly): >> I adore Firebird, enjoy Petrushka, like Le Sacre, and appreciate LeThat later Stravinsky isn't as popular is no surprise, but that popularity does not correlate with quality... Stravinsky's inventiveness, energy, and compelling streak of weirdness developed prodigiously his whole career long. However, given the
Noces. Of all the later works, I only really like Pulcinella, the Violin >> Concerto and Symphony of Psalms.
All of the rest (Apollo, Orpheus, Dumbarton Oaks, Concerto for piano,
Concerto in D, etc, etc) seem uninspired, routine, even just
note-spinning.
to hear music we don't like.It may very well be that you simply don't get Stravinsky's later music. Which is fine! None of us are born knowing and appreciating everything. ... Again, your tastes may differ. The great thing is that none of us, I believe, are generally obligated
Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. As suggested by Ray and Herman, I've now listened to Salonen's Apollo and hear his attention to phrasing which definitely adds life to the music. And Andy and others mention
Renard and Soldat - I haven't heard them in years but did enjoy them.
But as so often happens with me, my point was lost in a sea of verbiage.
I'm not looking to disparage Stravinsky, but to find better performances
to help me to better appreciate his music.
And I'm not that familiar with the late music - my focus has also been
on the "middle period" works (Apollo, Orpheus, Dumbarton Oaks, Concerto
for piano, Concerto in D) and not the later ones (Except Agon, where I certainly appreciate the genius for orchestration).
But in the end, although I wouldn't put it quite the same way, I agree
with Dan that there is a "dry" quality to the middle works that limits
their attraction for me. (And I also tend to put things in a provocative way!)
It's not that I don't enjoy atonal and 12-tone music, and do like many
works of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. I'll now continue to try more imaginative conductors, and, based on the feedback of Néstor and others I'll start exploring late Stravinsky now.
Thanks again for all the suggestions!
But in the end, although I wouldn't put it quite the same way, I agree
with Dan that there is a "dry" quality to the middle works that limits
their attraction for me. (And I also tend to put things in a provocative way!)
Like I said, I'm not a fan of the big orchestral 'Russian' ballets, but then I hardly ever like big loud orchestral works by anyone. Petrushka I just happen to like, l'Oiseau not really, the music is smudgy and the ballet is kitschy.
On Saturday, 19 November 2022 at 07:42:55 UTC, Herman wrote:context - Diaghilev, the Ballets Russes and the wonderful stagings of Bakst and Fokine. Les Noces 1923 has wonderful choreography by Nijinska as well - it works beautifully on stage.
Like I said, I'm not a fan of the big orchestral 'Russian' ballets, but then I hardly ever like big loud orchestral works by anyone. Petrushka I just happen to like, l'Oiseau not really, the music is smudgy and the ballet is kitschy.I hear you. I don't listen to L'Oiseau as music - much less interesting than his later ballets. Rarely the Sacre, Petrushka every now and then. But those 3 early ballets were essentially stage works, and the music worked sensationally well in its
So I listen to works like the 3 symphonies, Soldat and Renard as music, independent of any ballets. I just love Stravinsky's orchestrations, which became very subtle in his middle works on.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 3:39:52 AM UTC+1, Notsure01 wrote:
But in the end, although I wouldn't put it quite the same way, I agree
with Dan that there is a "dry" quality to the middle works that limits their attraction for me. (And I also tend to put things in a provocative way!)
'Dry' is misleading vocabulary. The word is clear and transparent, which in a way could be termed a 'French' musical ideal (see all the wrongheaded verbiage in the 'Debussy French' topic).
I'm not sure where 'late' IS starts, maybe when he started experimenting with twelve-tone, and was pushed by Craft to do so? Anyway, my sense is IS did not change too much; he just got older.
Like I said, I'm not a fan of the big orchestral 'Russian' ballets, but then I hardly ever like big loud orchestral works by anyone. Petrushka I just happen to like, l'Oiseau not really, the music is smudgy and the ballet is kitschy.
Petrushka I have an enduring love for. The Rite of Spring was a passion of mine when I was in junior high, but I rarely listen to it now. Oddly enough, for the longest time I disliked The Firebird precisely for the reasons that Herman listed. Then I happened to hear the whole thing one day while
on my way to work in 2015. By the time I got to finale, my eyes were
welling up with tears. Can't explain why.
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