Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings from Pristine Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened to all titles of the first CD but the second CD was left in my stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it
for the first time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture) was played in C major and not in the original key of E major. I think this level of key difference cannot be explained by the variable cutter speed of early 78
rpm records. Did Walter really play this overture in C major?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7, ohmis...@yahoo.co.jp wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings from Pristine
Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened to all titles of the first CD but
the second CD was left in my stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for
the first time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture)
was played in C major and not in the original key of E major. I think this level of key
difference cannot be explained by the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records.
Did Walter really play this overture in C major?

IIRC so called "78 rpm" recordings were cut anywhere from 70 something to
86 rpm. This is why professional studio turntables have adjustable speeds.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ward Marston produced that cd in the Walter series, so he would be the definitive person to ask. But it doesn't seem reasonable that the speed of the original recording was so far off. If for speculation, Ward transferred it at standard 78 speed to
obtain a C-Major overture, then reaching E would require a speed of around 98.6 by my rough calcs. I have never heard of a DG/Polydor running almost 100 rpm!

DH

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 12:44:18 PM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7, ohmis...@yahoo.co.jp wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings from Pristine
Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened to all titles of the first CD but
the second CD was left in my stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for
the first time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture)
was played in C major and not in the original key of E major. I think this level of key
difference cannot be explained by the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records.
Did Walter really play this overture in C major?

IIRC so called "78 rpm" recordings were cut anywhere from 70 something to
86 rpm. This is why professional studio turntables have adjustable speeds.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/5/22 10:32 AM, KAZUO OHMI wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings
from Pristine Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened
to all titles of the first CD but the second CD was left in my
stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for the first
time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture) was played in C major and not in the original key of E
major. I think this level of key difference cannot be explained by
the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records. Did Walter really
play this overture in C major?

It does seem awfully slow and looking at the score makes me suspicious
of the low A-flats sounding in the cellos and db in the opening bars.

That said, the other recording easy to find on spotify with the German
title was at pitch but not a lot faster.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I attempted a crude speed up using Audacity. Sounds much more plausible. Also, a ten plus minute recording would have required at least three sides. Only two sides are given.

DH

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 5:36:34 PM UTC-4, MINe109 wrote:

On 11/5/22 10:32 AM, KAZUO OHMI wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings
from Pristine Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened
to all titles of the first CD but the second CD was left in my
stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for the first
time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture) was played in C major and not in the original key of E
major. I think this level of key difference cannot be explained by
the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records. Did Walter really
play this overture in C major?

It does seem awfully slow and looking at the score makes me suspicious
of the low A-flats sounding in the cellos and db in the opening bars.

That said, the other recording easy to find on spotify with the German
title was at pitch but not a lot faster.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I tried a crude experiment of speeding it up and raising the pitch with Audacity. Certainly sounds more plausible. Also seems improbable to me a ten-minute recording was made on only two sides.

DH

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 5:36:34 PM UTC-4, MINe109 wrote:

On 11/5/22 10:32 AM, KAZUO OHMI wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings
from Pristine Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened
to all titles of the first CD but the second CD was left in my
stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for the first
time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture) was played in C major and not in the original key of E
major. I think this level of key difference cannot be explained by
the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records. Did Walter really
play this overture in C major?

It does seem awfully slow and looking at the score makes me suspicious
of the low A-flats sounding in the cellos and db in the opening bars.

That said, the other recording easy to find on spotify with the German
title was at pitch but not a lot faster.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 10:13:28 PM UTC-5, drh8h wrote:

I tried a crude experiment of speeding it up and raising the pitch with Audacity. Certainly sounds more plausible. Also seems improbable to me a ten-minute recording was made on only two sides.

DH
On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 5:36:34 PM UTC-4, MINe109 wrote:

On 11/5/22 10:32 AM, KAZUO OHMI wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings
from Pristine Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened
to all titles of the first CD but the second CD was left in my
stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for the first
time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture) was played in C major and not in the original key of E
major. I think this level of key difference cannot be explained by
the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records. Did Walter really play this overture in C major?

It does seem awfully slow and looking at the score makes me suspicious
of the low A-flats sounding in the cellos and db in the opening bars.

That said, the other recording easy to find on spotify with the German title was at pitch but not a lot faster.

My copy of the original German Grammophone 78 times at 7:51 at 78 rpm; Ward's transfer is more than two minutes longer. I suspect something went wrong with his software. Mark Obert-Thorn, do you have any ideas about this?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Assuming the transfer is properly pitched for C and raising it to E, approx. 26% higher, it timed out at 8:03, very close to your number.

DH

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:43:58 AM UTC-4, Richard Kaplan wrote:

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 10:13:28 PM UTC-5, drh8h wrote:

I tried a crude experiment of speeding it up and raising the pitch with Audacity. Certainly sounds more plausible. Also seems improbable to me a ten-minute recording was made on only two sides.

DH
On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 5:36:34 PM UTC-4, MINe109 wrote:

On 11/5/22 10:32 AM, KAZUO OHMI wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings from Pristine Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened to all titles of the first CD but the second CD was left in my stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for the first time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture) was played in C major and not in the original key of E major. I think this level of key difference cannot be explained by
the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records. Did Walter really play this overture in C major?

It does seem awfully slow and looking at the score makes me suspicious of the low A-flats sounding in the cellos and db in the opening bars.

That said, the other recording easy to find on spotify with the German title was at pitch but not a lot faster.

My copy of the original German Grammophone 78 times at 7:51 at 78 rpm; Ward's transfer is more than two minutes longer. I suspect something went wrong with his software. Mark Obert-Thorn, do you have any ideas about this?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:07:31 PM UTC, drh8h wrote:

Assuming the transfer is properly pitched for C and raising it to E, approx. 26% higher, it timed out at 8:03, very close to your number.

DH
On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:43:58 AM UTC-4, Richard Kaplan wrote:

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 10:13:28 PM UTC-5, drh8h wrote:

I tried a crude experiment of speeding it up and raising the pitch with Audacity. Certainly sounds more plausible. Also seems improbable to me a ten-minute recording was made on only two sides.

DH
On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 5:36:34 PM UTC-4, MINe109 wrote:

On 11/5/22 10:32 AM, KAZUO OHMI wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings from Pristine Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened to all titles of the first CD but the second CD was left in my stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for the first time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger overture) was played in C major and not in the original key of E major. I think this level of key difference cannot be explained by the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records. Did Walter really play this overture in C major?

It does seem awfully slow and looking at the score makes me suspicious of the low A-flats sounding in the cellos and db in the opening bars.

That said, the other recording easy to find on spotify with the German title was at pitch but not a lot faster.

My copy of the original German Grammophone 78 times at 7:51 at 78 rpm; Ward's transfer is more than two minutes longer. I suspect something went wrong with his software. Mark Obert-Thorn, do you have any ideas about this?

There are half-a-dozen recordings of this overture on YouTube, all in the same key, as per this one from Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martins in the Fields ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8BjLVCLne8

And here is the Bruno Walter recording, indeed in a lower key ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8mHtZtxHTA

It's a dreary piece in whatever key you choose!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I agree. Not even second-tier Cherubini. Perhaps unfamiliarity with the piece and its mediocrity combined to not make me notice something was amiss. I have listened to the complete cd many times with interest and pleasure.

DH

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 3:16:57 AM UTC-5, Kerrison wrote:

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:07:31 PM UTC, drh8h wrote:

Assuming the transfer is properly pitched for C and raising it to E, approx. 26% higher, it timed out at 8:03, very close to your number.

DH
On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:43:58 AM UTC-4, Richard Kaplan wrote:

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 10:13:28 PM UTC-5, drh8h wrote:

I tried a crude experiment of speeding it up and raising the pitch with Audacity. Certainly sounds more plausible. Also seems improbable to me a ten-minute recording was made on only two sides.

DH
On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 5:36:34 PM UTC-4, MINe109 wrote:

On 11/5/22 10:32 AM, KAZUO OHMI wrote:

Three years ago I bought two CDs of Bruno Walter's early recordings
from Pristine Classical (PASC 142 and 322). At that time, I listened
to all titles of the first CD but the second CD was left in my stocker. Today I took out the CD and listened to it for the first time. To my astonishment, the second title (Cherbini's Wasserträger
overture) was played in C major and not in the original key of E major. I think this level of key difference cannot be explained by the variable cutter speed of early 78 rpm records. Did Walter really
play this overture in C major?

It does seem awfully slow and looking at the score makes me suspicious
of the low A-flats sounding in the cellos and db in the opening bars.

That said, the other recording easy to find on spotify with the German
title was at pitch but not a lot faster.

My copy of the original German Grammophone 78 times at 7:51 at 78 rpm; Ward's transfer is more than two minutes longer. I suspect something went wrong with his software. Mark Obert-Thorn, do you have any ideas about this?

There are half-a-dozen recordings of this overture on YouTube, all in the same key, as per this one from Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martins in the Fields ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8BjLVCLne8

And here is the Bruno Walter recording, indeed in a lower key ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8mHtZtxHTA

It's a dreary piece in whatever key you choose!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)