In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
even to hear one!
Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
listen for myself.
The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?
An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor sound.
Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?
(And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
for additional artists)
Thanks in advance!
In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
even to hear one!
Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
listen for myself.
The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?
An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor sound.
Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?
(And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
for additional artists)
Thanks in advance!
While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
On 10/27/22 2:53 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.
I appreciate the quick responses! About the links to previous
discussions, I did check the RMCR archive for previous threads, but
didn't go that far back. I'm glad to see that my concerns are shared -
at least by previous generations of RMCR denizens.
And the dilemma back then was the same as now - or maybe much worse -
the proliferation of Celi recordings. Although I'm not sure they are characteristic, I chose to quickly listen to a few and now have a
glimmer of understanding of his appeal. First I sampled a Schubert 9th -
and it seemed to be nothing special. I then found a Rossini overture,
"La Pie Voleuse" (Gazza Ladra for us folks from Brooklyn), and I thought
he did a really masterful job of managing the crescendos.
Most recently I've been listening to a YouTube La Mer - Danish Radiosymfoniorkestret
Copenhagen, March 1971. The playing seemed scrappy in spots, but I could
see the attention to phrasing and pacing, and he sure made the second
and third movements exciting.
It would still be great to hear from other folks - ideally specifying particular versions of popular works.
And I know it will lead to "Dancing about Architecture" - and a few toes will thus be stepped on - but it would great if folks could include
comments on *why* the Celi interpretation is special - Mswd did this
well - was it the precision of the playing - the attention to phrasing -
the pacing - the tempos - the balances - hightlighting of inner voices, or...?
There is certainly value to threads where people say "I appreciate
maestro X's version" but even better would be if they elaborated on why...
Thanks again!!
While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
The problem is really that Celi brings a magnitude and weight to Bruckner, that the music cannot really warrant. At the end of the day the music sounds overly pompous, and way over-reverent. Like Celi himself.
I still think that Jochum (EMI) is more in line with the Bruckner I go to
In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
even to hear one!
Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
listen for myself.
The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?
An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor sound.
Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?
(And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
for additional artists)
Thanks in advance!
In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache versionLook for him conducting the Munich Philharmonic, like his 49 CD box
of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
even to hear one!
Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
listen for myself.
The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?
Recommending a 49 CD box to someone who just asks for a good recording to get acquainted?
On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 01:03:48 -0700, Notsure01 wrote
(in article <tjde15$qoa$1@gioia.aioe.org>):
In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
of a work But with so many,
how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?
Look for him conducting the Munich Philharmonic, like his 49 CD box
set The Munich Years, 48 CDs of Munich, at a far cheaper price than
the way I bought those 48 CDs, individually.
Recommending a 49 CD box to someone who just asks for a good recording to get acquainted?
In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache versionBest first.
of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
even to hear one!
Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
listen for myself.
The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?
An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor sound.
Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?
(And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
for additional artists)
Thanks in advance!
Too lazy to write much,
but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3)
with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is
pretty much peerless
(except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).
He just does stuff really beautifully, listen to
the interplay between the winds and the strings
a bit before the ending of the 4th Movement of
Brahms 4, and just listen to the ending(!)... he
really lets the music breathe.
I like pretty much everything he conducted,
except for works by Haydn, Mozart and
Beethoven.
On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Too lazy to write much,Thank you! Brevity is very much appreciated! ;-)
but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3)Absolutely, not only "pretty much"!
with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is
pretty much peerless
(except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
both live.
I like pretty much everything he conducted,Did you get a chance to hear Celi live?
except for works by Haydn, Mozart and
Beethoven.
dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 2. November 2022 um 23:26:09 UTC+1:Brahms (not rushed).
On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Thank you! Brevity is very much appreciated! ;-)
Too lazy to write much,
but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3)Absolutely, not only "pretty much"!
with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is
pretty much peerless
(except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
both live.
Yes, very different approaches. I would still recommend Klemperer's highly, but after hearing Celibidache's I just really can't listen to it anymore.
Furtwängler's sounds like a mad man conducting, I don't know if this suits the character of the piece, it sure doesn't feel like it, and he fucks up many passages which Celibidache illuminates beautifully.
I think harmony is very important in Brahms. You need time to let it unfold. And therefore rushed versions generally feel wrong to me in the case of Brahms - so while different approaches work, I still am looking for something in an approach towards
dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 2. November 2022 um 23:26:09 UTC+1:
On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
(except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
both live.
Yes, very different approaches. I would still
recommend Klemperer's highly, but after
hearing Celibidache's I just really can't
listen to it anymore.
Did you get a chance to hear Celi live?
No, I haven't. I was a kid when he died,
and I was still listening to shitty music
On 11/3/22 11:20 AM, Marc S wrote:
dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 2. November 2022 um 23:26:09 UTC+1:
On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Thank you! Brevity is very much appreciated! ;-)
Too lazy to write much,
but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3)Absolutely, not only "pretty much"!
with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is
pretty much peerless
(except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
both live.
Yes, very different approaches. I would still
recommend Klemperer's highly, but after hearing
Celibidache's I just really can't listen to it anymore.
Furtwängler's sounds like a mad man conducting, I
don't know if this suits the character of the piece, it
sure doesn't feel like it, and he fucks up many passages
which Celibidache illuminates beautifully.
I think harmony is very important in Brahms. You need
time to let it unfold. And therefore rushed versions generally
feel wrong to me in the case of Brahms - so while different
approaches work, I still am looking for something in an
approach towards Brahms (not rushed).
Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not
disagree more. Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution
leaves something to be desired, but for me his Brahms
4th is sui generis, and all others pale by comparison.
Even this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k
Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
Martinon comes close conducting French music.
dk
On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
Even this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k
Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
Martinon comes close conducting French music.
dk
I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms
was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.
Bob Harper
On 11/3/22 11:20 AM, Marc S wrote:Brahms (not rushed).
Furtwängler's sounds like a mad man conducting, I don't know if this suits the character of the piece, it sure doesn't feel like it, and he fucks up many passages which Celibidache illuminates beautifully.
I think harmony is very important in Brahms. You need time to let it unfold. And therefore rushed versions generally feel wrong to me in the case of Brahms - so while different approaches work, I still am looking for something in an approach towards
Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more.
Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired,
but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by
comparison. As always, YMMV.
Bob Harper
On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Yes, very different approaches. I would stillKlemp's live Brahms 1st terrified me.
recommend Klemperer's highly, but after
hearing Celibidache's I just really can't
listen to it anymore.
I scrambled for the nearest exit.
Did you get a chance to hear Celi live?
No, I haven't. I was a kid when he died,At least you seem to have recovered.
and I was still listening to shitty music
dk
Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.
On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
Even this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k
Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
Martinon comes close conducting French music.
dkI listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.
Bob HarperI don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been reading
"I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight tomy Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration.
You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read theirscores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
Brahms to a journalist in 1896
Interesting, I guess we view this work differently. I find it very difficult to talk about this, but to me Brahms seems to be somewhat coming to terms with things, with life, that hope often is treacherous, and one should not celebrate too early. Withthe 3rd movement being the celebrating moment, a bit of fun in the darkness - and then the 4th movement being the darkest of them all, and also very austere and distanced, maybe a warning, it's not an angry "Beethovian" outcry mixed with "Schumannic"
On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
Even this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k
Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
Martinon comes close conducting French music.
dkI listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.
Bob Harper
Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more.
Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired,
but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by
comparison. As always, YMMV.
Bob Harper
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:31:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:that certain things make more sense, and in wonderful ways. Whether you get to that "there" doesn't matter. Find what you enjoy, and later, find something else. You'll end up somewhere good no matter what.
Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more. Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired, but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by comparison. As always, YMMV.I'm with Bob. Furtwangler's Brahms 4 is genius-level interpretation to my ears. But we are all on different paths and will hear differently.
Bob Harper
I will say that there are a good number fo Furtwangler recordings I initially recoiled from. Later, my feelings were quite different. I'm not going to claim that my experience later was "superior" to the earlier. Time changes, you change, and you find
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:31:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:that certain things make more sense, and in wonderful ways. Whether you get to that "there" doesn't matter. Find what you enjoy, and later, find something else. You'll end up somewhere good no matter what.
Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more. Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired, but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by comparison. As always, YMMV.I'm with Bob. Furtwangler's Brahms 4 is genius-level interpretation to my ears. But we are all on different paths and will hear differently.
Bob Harper
I will say that there are a good number fo Furtwangler recordings I initially recoiled from. Later, my feelings were quite different. I'm not going to claim that my experience later was "superior" to the earlier. Time changes, you change, and you find
On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:44:37 PM UTC-8, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:find that certain things make more sense, and in wonderful ways. Whether you get to that "there" doesn't matter. Find what you enjoy, and later, find something else. You'll end up somewhere good no matter what.
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:31:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more. Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired, but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by comparison. As always, YMMV.I'm with Bob. Furtwangler's Brahms 4 is genius-level interpretation to my ears. But we are all on different paths and will hear differently.
Bob Harper
I will say that there are a good number fo Furtwangler recordings I initially recoiled from. Later, my feelings were quite different. I'm not going to claim that my experience later was "superior" to the earlier. Time changes, you change, and you
- A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.
Muhammed Ali
Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.
On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
Even this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k
Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
Martinon comes close conducting French music.
dk
impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true,
autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms
was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.
Bob Harper
I don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been reading
"I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight tomy Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration.
You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read theirscores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
Brahms to a journalist in 1896
Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.
On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
Even this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k
Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
Martinon comes close conducting French music.
dkI listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.
Bob HarperI don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been reading
"I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight tomy Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration.
You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read theirscores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
Brahms to a journalist in 1896
On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
Even this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k
Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
Martinon comes close conducting French music.
dk
I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms
was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.
Bob Harper
Thank you for that; I had never seen it. It would seem then that Brahms lacked the virtue of hope, which is a tragedy. I hope I'm wrong about that.
Bob Harper
On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:37:42 PM UTC-6, Marc S wrote:reading the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.
Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:
On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
Even this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k
Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
Martinon comes close conducting French music.
dkI listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.
Bob HarperI don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been
to my Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration."I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight
scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branchYou see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
Brahms to a journalist in 1896Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branchYou see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/Brahms to a journalist in 1896Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branchYou see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
Brahms to a journalist in 1896
Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.
On 11/7/2022 5:51 PM, MickeyBoy wrote:scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
Brahms to a journalist in 1896
Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.Proving only that the greatest artists can be fruitcakes.
scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branchYou see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/Brahms to a journalist in 1896Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
Frank Berger schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 00:03:58 UTC+1:their scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The
On 11/7/2022 5:51 PM, MickeyBoy wrote:
You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read
you are an idiot. But I wish you the best for your health.This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
Brahms to a journalist in 1896
Pretty stupid comment to make in this context and regarding Brahms' person, considering the context of his time his views are pretty much understandable and not the least as meshuggeh as some of the statements of chabad rabbis... Go fuck yourself Frank,Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.Proving only that the greatest artists can be fruitcakes.
As it happens, Paul Goldstein recently posted his transfer of the DG LP
of the Brahms 4 recorded by the BPO with Otto Gerdes conducting. It is tremendous, with power approaching that of WF, but in modern stereo.
Tempi are quite similar to Celi (total time is around 43 minutes), but
there the comparison ends. Gerdes is much more dynamic and inflected, to
the music's great advantage, IMO. There's a link on Paul's FB page.
Highly recommended.
Bob Harper
People these days are so fucking soft (crying about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.
Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:
People these days are so fucking soft (crying
about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.
People these days are so fucking arrogant
(crying about everything)... that is the problem.
Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:
People these days are so fucking soft (crying about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.People these days are so fucking arrogant (crying about everything)...
that is the problem.
On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 8:34:13 AM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:
People these days are so fucking soft (crying
about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.
People these days are so fucking arrogantYou and the BENEFRALUX gang cry far more
(crying about everything)... that is the problem.
than anyone else in this newgroup. You also
contribute nothing of interest to the rest of
the world.
dk
On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 8:34:13 AM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:
Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:
People these days are so fucking soft (crying
about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.
People these days are so fucking arrogantYou and the BENEFRALUX gang cry far more
(crying about everything)... that is the problem.
than anyone else in this newgroup. You also
contribute nothing of interest to the rest of
the world.
dk
If I remember correctly (not sure if I would think the same today), Horenstein was also very good in Brahms - I really liked the tragic ouverture... and Brahms 1 (with the LPO?) was also quite nice (3 and 4 were with some not so good orchestras I think?).
Just to get this out of my head ;D :in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the end
Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully, but
In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
Just to get this out of my head ;D :
Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.
Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.
On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
Just to get this out of my head ;D :
Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.
Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.
Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is foolish.
Bob Harper
On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
Just to get this out of my head ;D :
Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.
Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.
Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is foolish.
Bob Harper
On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
Just to get this out of my head ;D :
Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.
Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.
Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is foolish.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 19. November 2022 um 17:38:16 UTC+1:but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
Just to get this out of my head ;D :
Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.
Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.
Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is
foolish.
Bob Harper
It's also funny how you are contradicting yoruself, since you called F's Brahms 4 "sui generis"... so obviously you must have compared and ranked the "greatness" of the different interpretations of this piece yourself...
Bob... you and Oscar, at least from what I read politically and your behaviour, you both seemed to be quite normal ;D But really... this ng seems to be full of people that are incapable of reflection...
A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
'greatest', whatever than means.
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:
A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any
other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
'greatest', whatever than means.
that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:
A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any
other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
'greatest', whatever than means.
that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.Exactly.
Bob Harper
On 11/21/22 10:43 AM, Marc S wrote:but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In
Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 19. November 2022 um 17:38:16 UTC+1:
On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
Just to get this out of my head ;D :
Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.
Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.
Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is
foolish.
Bob Harper
It's also funny how you are contradicting yoruself, since you called F's Brahms 4 "sui generis"... so obviously you must have compared and ranked the "greatness" of the different interpretations of this piece yourself...
Bob... you and Oscar, at least from what I read politically and your behaviour, you both seemed to be quite normal ;D But really... this ng seems to be full of people that are incapable of reflection...
A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the 'greatest', whatever than means. I think you're trying to make this too complicated, at least for me, a simple music lover.
BTW, I could never make a statement like you did above, that for Brahms
1, 3, and 4 there is 'only Celibidache.' Have you heard, for example,
Wand's Chicago Symphony performance of 1? You might be surprised.
Bob Harper
On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:
A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any >> other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
'greatest', whatever than means.
that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.Exactly.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 07:20:23 UTC+1:Did the Pope not learn from the mistakes of the church during the Holocaust?
On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:Exactly.
A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any >>>> other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
'greatest', whatever than means.
that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
Bob Harper
Tell me Bob, why did you submit yourself to a morally corrupt institution such as the catholic church (I think Luther was morally corrupt as well btw)?
You have to "think", not just go by your "feeling"...
In recent history, the catholic church helped Nazis escape Europe and were silent when the Nazis murdered the Jews. The Lutherans (many) even took Luther's antisemitic texts to justify Nazi-Ideology.
Today the catholic church is silent while the devilish islamic Regime of Iran is murdering and raping innocent people. It's not only silent, the Pope even shook hand with the devil Rouhani... Is the Pope ignorant? Why does he shake hands with fascists?
Who is the fool Bob?
It seems you are...
I do have a good notion of why you believe in such nonsense... (I probably understand you better in this regard than you understand yourself... because you go by "feelings").
If you thought rationally about the institution of the catholic church, you would want to break
Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 18:04:34 UTC+1:fascists? Did the Pope not learn from the mistakes of the church during the Holocaust?
On 11/22/22 1:51 AM, Marc S wrote:
Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 07:20:23 UTC+1:
On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote: >>>>Exactly.
A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any
other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the >>>> 'greatest', whatever than means.
that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
Bob Harper
Tell me Bob, why did you submit yourself to a morally corrupt institution such as the catholic church (I think Luther was morally corrupt as well btw)?
You have to "think", not just go by your "feeling"...
In recent history, the catholic church helped Nazis escape Europe and were silent when the Nazis murdered the Jews. The Lutherans (many) even took Luther's antisemitic texts to justify Nazi-Ideology.
Today the catholic church is silent while the devilish islamic Regime of Iran is murdering and raping innocent people. It's not only silent, the Pope even shook hand with the devil Rouhani... Is the Pope ignorant? Why does he shake hands with
Who is the fool Bob?
It seems you are...
I do have a good notion of why you believe in such nonsense... (I probably understand you better in this regard than you understand yourself... because you go by "feelings").
If you thought rationally about the institution of the catholic church, you would want to breakMarc, you begin to remind me of Michael Schaffer (look him up in the archives), with whom I had many interactions a number of years ago. You haven't yet become as nasty as he, but you are getting there now that
you have begun attacking the Church--mostly out of ignorance, it would seem. You are also attacking me personally, but that's secondary, if unpleasant.
Henceforth I will not respond to anything you have to say, unless in my judgment it is solely about music and free animus and snobbery. I will
be the sole judge of those qualities. I wish you well in the rest of
your endeavors.
Bob Harper;D are your feelings hurt? You attacked me personally by calling my behaviour foolish without giving any concrete argument.
When I respond in an appropriate manner calling you out on your foolishness you go crying... oh, well...
You believe in the church because of ignorance. My criticism is valid you brainwashed idiot.
On 11/22/22 1:51 AM, Marc S wrote:fascists? Did the Pope not learn from the mistakes of the church during the Holocaust?
Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 07:20:23 UTC+1:
On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote: >>>>Exactly.
A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any >>>> other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
'greatest', whatever than means.
that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
Bob Harper
Tell me Bob, why did you submit yourself to a morally corrupt institution such as the catholic church (I think Luther was morally corrupt as well btw)?
You have to "think", not just go by your "feeling"...
In recent history, the catholic church helped Nazis escape Europe and were silent when the Nazis murdered the Jews. The Lutherans (many) even took Luther's antisemitic texts to justify Nazi-Ideology.
Today the catholic church is silent while the devilish islamic Regime of Iran is murdering and raping innocent people. It's not only silent, the Pope even shook hand with the devil Rouhani... Is the Pope ignorant? Why does he shake hands with
Who is the fool Bob?
It seems you are...
I do have a good notion of why you believe in such nonsense... (I probably understand you better in this regard than you understand yourself... because you go by "feelings").
If you thought rationally about the institution of the catholic church, you would want to breakMarc, you begin to remind me of Michael Schaffer (look him up in the archives), with whom I had many interactions a number of years ago. You haven't yet become as nasty as he, but you are getting there now that
you have begun attacking the Church--mostly out of ignorance, it would
seem. You are also attacking me personally, but that's secondary, if unpleasant.
Henceforth I will not respond to anything you have to say, unless in my judgment it is solely about music and free animus and snobbery. I will
be the sole judge of those qualities. I wish you well in the rest of
your endeavors.
Bob Harper
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I will
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more. Might
WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I heardfrom him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I will
http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
But yes, she might be the best queen I heard, alongside Berger... Hallstein's singing might be impressive, but I don't know, somehow it's a bit flat, and Lucia Popp doesn't feel right to me either...
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more. Might
from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I heard
If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
But yes, she might be the best queen I heard, alongside Berger... Hallstein's singing might be impressive, but I don't know, somehow it's a bit flat, and Lucia Popp doesn't feel right to me either...What Berger said to Streich about singing the Queen may be of interest:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Dxo6AQAAIAAJ&q=berger+%22queen+of+the+night+is+a+fighter%22&dq=berger+%22queen+of+the+night+is+a+fighter%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj93OiF1NX8AhXeJUQIHVnWCn8Q6AF6BAgHEAI
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 16:58:36 UTC+1:assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
It's been ages since I listened to the Szell (wasn't paying too much attention to singers' names then), and I remember not listening to much of it, as I didn't like it. I don't like Szell anywhere actually.
Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.I think I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it, also around minute 4:14 she makes a weird sound or sth? But thank you.
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 16:58:36 UTC+1:assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
It's been ages since I listened to the Szell (wasn't paying too much attention to singers' names then), and I remember not listening to much of it, as I didn't like it. I don't like Szell anywhere actually.
Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.I think I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it, also around minute 4:14 she makes a weird sound or sth? But thank you.
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:56:01 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 16:58:36 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most ZauberflÃhttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff
Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
It's been ages since I listened to the Szell (wasn't paying too much attention to singers' names then), and I remember not listening to much of it, as I didn't like it. I don't like Szell anywhere actually.Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.I think I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it, also around minute 4:14 she makes a weird sound or sth? But thank you.
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:heard, she seems to succeed in both).
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:heard, she seems to succeed in both).
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing everhappens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:heard, she seems to succeed in both).
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what
happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what
happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from
ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
(Y. upload):"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
"Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from
ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
(Y. upload):"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
"Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"(Y. upload):
"Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:from what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as
ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
(Y. upload):"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
"Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"(Y. upload):
"Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"
Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?
Thanks, it sounds reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it ("queen of the night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of
singing" - I guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to
mention Rita Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not
so fond of Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)
I would really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out
my favorite.
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:heard, she seems to succeed in both).
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing everhappens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:heard, she seems to succeed in both).
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.(Y. upload):
"1839 : Musicians KILLING Mozart's Music by SPEED and VIRTUOSITY (1/2)"
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:
Thanks, it sounds reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it ("queen of the night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of singing" - I guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to
mention Rita Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not
so fond of Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)
I would really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure outI'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the
my favorite.
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a spin.
-Owen
Quick thoughts as usual:Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).
Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness scene).
So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.
On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).
Quick thoughts as usual:
Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness scene).
So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.
Bob Harper
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:scene). Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).
Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
Quick thoughts as usual:
Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness
available to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.
Bob HarperOh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.
What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings
Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?
Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).
On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
Quick thoughts as usual:
Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness scene).
to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.
Bob HarperOh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.
What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings available
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:scene). Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).
Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
Quick thoughts as usual:
Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness
available to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.
Bob HarperOh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.
What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings
Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 09:34:37 UTC+1:scene). Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
Quick thoughts as usual:
Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness
available to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and
says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.
Bob HarperOh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.
What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings
Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?No, I haven't I will look into it. I also have to look into Jochum's Zauberflöte.
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds >> reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic> >> Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
I don't think that WWI has any particular reverence due to it being
unfunny, but, all this is a matter of taste.
However, you missed the best part! The singing! Not the best singing
there ever was (which you seem to be looking for), but well sung and enjoyable.
-Owen
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds >> reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the >> night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita >> Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of >> Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would >> really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's> >> in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic> >> Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches, then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:scene). Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).
Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
Quick thoughts as usual:
Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness
available to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.
Bob HarperOh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.
What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings
Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I >> guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita >> Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would >> really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my >> favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the> >> singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's> >> in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches, then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and, to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I >> guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a >> spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches, then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and, to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a >> spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a >> spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 23:24:36 UTC+1:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
wrong with this world, one has to look a little further than the makers of "Paths of Glory" did.What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sYou need a movie to remind you of a simple phrase? Every kid knows that corrupt leaders destroy our humanity; I bet you even the Nazis would have told you this, about "corrupt capitalist Jews" in the USA destroying humanity. But to know what is really
Every god damn country on this earth produces anti-war movies since the beginning of the movie industry, and yet we still have war... so, how actually did Paths of Glory and all the other war movies help teach people about "How corrupt Leaders DestroyOur Humanity"?
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about a war movie that provides a woman's perspective of war?
Ever heard of GONE WITH THE WIND?
critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a >> spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themesIsn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:55:15 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:really critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
https://movieweb.com/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-required-viewing/https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themesIsn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themesIsn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themesIsn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:55:15 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:really critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
https://movieweb.com/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-required-viewing/https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themesIsn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
Ever heard of GONE WITH THE WIND?
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themesIsn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 02:05:34 UTC+1:critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
Obviously you didn't understand my point. Again coming up with an argument that proves nothing. How about trying to address the points I made? Learn to think...https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themesIsn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
It might be that these type of movies might have relevance for some people (just as you), but that doesn't make them to be "meaningful" in any way. (Britney spears is also still relevant in some way today, that doesn't prove anything)
Why do you think Netflix produced this movie? Because they want to teach you how bad wars are? The primary aspect is obviously profit. This is the reality.
The movie industry today just rehashes old classics. It doesn't have anything "new" to say.
The war movies that are being produced are just simply a variation on the same theme... the theme being: war = bad. Now did we learn anything new? No we didn't.
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 17:10:04 UTC+11, Marc S wrote:really critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _
gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 02:05:34 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
favorite.
I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
spin.>> -Owen
Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!
The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).
The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
my mind, I can't enjoy it.
There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
McHale's Navy".
There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..
And what about MASH?Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.
Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't
What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9sAnd what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:
Obviously you didn't understand my point. Again coming up with an argument that proves nothing. How about trying to address the points I made? Learn to think...https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themesIsn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
It might be that these type of movies might have relevance for some people (just as you), but that doesn't make them to be "meaningful" in any way. (Britney spears is also still relevant in some way today, that doesn't prove anything)
Why do you think Netflix produced this movie? Because they want to teach you how bad wars are? The primary aspect is obviously profit. This is the reality.
The movie industry today just rehashes old classics. It doesn't have anything "new" to say.
The war movies that are being produced are just simply a variation on the same theme... the theme being: war = bad. Now did we learn anything new? No we didn't.I don't watch films to necessarily learn anything.
If anything the world of film reinforces our place in the world through the interaction of human beings to each other.
No more or less. If I want to learn, I'll watch Susskind or Penrose on YouTube or from their very excellent books.
Ray Hall, Taree
You are really the most hateful person ever to grace RMCR.
No matter how people respond (if they're naive enough to do so), you will invariably tell them they're stupid and cannot think.
But of course you're not a narcissist. You said so yourself.
Ironically there are a thousand posts of yours to show that thinking isn't your forte either, not to mention all those deleted posts in which you said some recording was the greatest ever until you realized, one minute into said recording, it was not.
On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:45 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
Ever heard of GONE WITH THE WIND?A horrible book!
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:10:41 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what
happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.(Y. upload):
"1839 : Musicians KILLING Mozart's Music by SPEED and VIRTUOSITY (1/2)"(Y. upload):
"In what Tempo Mozart conducted Don Giovanni in 1787? Mystery or not?"
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflötehttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether to
Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most ZauberflÃhttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff
to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether
Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most ZauberflÃhttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether
conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least somethingis happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.
I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his Mozart
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most ZauberflÃhttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether
conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least somethingis happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.
I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his Mozart
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but
more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most ZauberflÃhttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but
more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most ZauberflÃhttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 17:57:36 UTC+1:but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Mosthttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking aboutThanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
have to listen to Mildmay, the Zerlina on Busch's recording, again to make a judgement about her.Thinking about it, I really liked Streich... She might be my favorite, alongside Mirella Freni in Klemperer's recording. Maybe I was wrong about Mitropoulos, it's actually a very enjoyable production, even though some parts just feel too fast. Wouldhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVEWho would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Mosthttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVEWho would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Mosthttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVEWho would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Mosthttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking aboutThanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
Ever heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVEWho would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEw
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 22:05:28 UTC+1:but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
a bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Mosthttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out
other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking aboutThanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
his Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with
performance Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live
the music to be better than it is/would be with better sound, but listening to it, it just feels so natural; and when I compared parts with Krips' I tended to favor Busch despite the sound). Second favorite DG recs: Krips and Mitropoulos (note: I don'tEver heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVEWho would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEwShe seems fine, but the conducting is such a mess that it really doesn't matter and it's hard to tell.
My favorite DG-recs definitely are Busch and Klemperer - I love both (I know Klemperer's way better, and I'd probably tend towards it; the problem with Busch is definitely the sound, which also makes me unsure if I'm not really mistaken and imagining
Favorite Zauberflöte-recs: Fricsay, Klemperer (would probably tend towards Klemperer when pressed. WRT Klemperer: My main problem seems to be the ouverture (same as in DG), it's just so heavy, as soon as they sing, the problem disappears for me,except for some parts. ---I don't understand what I liked about Beecham in the first place (maybe Papageno?), I think he is actually a horrible Mozartean. I'd rate Sawallisch second. Maybe I need all 3.
Favorite Nozze: Kleiber is horrible, he really is just horrible, not even the singing can save it. He might be more horrible than Karajan in Mozart (not neccessarily in Nozze). Very likely so. So my favorite Nozze is: Fricsay's (not so sure about Buschthis time, it isn't bad, but not as good as DG it seems; writing this out of memory, still want to doublecheck this). Really difficult to find a good Nozze, I'm just realizing. hmmmm... can't think of any other Nozze than Fricsay's that I really like...
Favorite Serail: Fricsayit seems she has a nice voice, but it's hard for me to tell whether she is a good singer, because the concept (of the conductor - I guess it's his) is such a mess)
Cosi: Maybe none? Maybe there is only a second place here: Sawallisch? But I am very unsure. Would have to listen again. But likely Sawallisch is better than Karajan.
WRT singing over conducting in operas: Ofc the singing is the thing which it centers around (similar to how a piano concerto centers around a piano), but singing can't save an opera if the concept is bad (see Margit Bokor's Z. - she doesn't sound bad,
On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Mosthttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking aboutThanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
Ever heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVEWho would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEw
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Mosthttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVEWho would be your favorite Zerlina?...
Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
leaving out newer singers in my consideration):
Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone
These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...
On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
leaving out newer singers in my consideration):
Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone
These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
are OK, tough not great.
My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
sing and hold C8!
dk
dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
leaving out newer singers in my consideration):
Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone
These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...
Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
are OK, tough not great.
It would be very nice to hear arguments that would
give me an idea how you arrived at your conclusion.
On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:14:12 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
leaving out newer singers in my consideration):
Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone
These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...
Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
are OK, tough not great.
It would be very nice to hear arguments that wouldDitto. Why don't you practice what you preach? You
give me an idea how you arrived at your conclusion.
have your favorites and you ranked them by your
criteria, which are about as clear and ratonal as
mud.
I have my favorites and I ranked them by the
clarity of their voices and by their ability to
sing in perfect pitch and without excessive
vibrato. I am not bent on convincing anyone
of anything.
Case closed.
dk
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 22:05:28 UTC+1:but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...
Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)
Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmmI think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...
Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
a bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Mosthttp://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.htmlThanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.
There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out
other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...
That's not her only recording of that aria.
She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:
https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-StraussYeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking aboutThanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU
Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a
Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.
Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:
https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
his Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.
WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with
performance Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.
To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live
the music to be better than it is/would be with better sound, but listening to it, it just feels so natural; and when I compared parts with Krips' I tended to favor Busch despite the sound). Second favorite DG recs: Krips and Mitropoulos (note: I don'tEver heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVEWho would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEwShe seems fine, but the conducting is such a mess that it really doesn't matter and it's hard to tell.
My favorite DG-recs definitely are Busch and Klemperer - I love both (I know Klemperer's way better, and I'd probably tend towards it; the problem with Busch is definitely the sound, which also makes me unsure if I'm not really mistaken and imagining
I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.
In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low, it
In Nozze: Fricsaysounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.
In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.
In Serail: Fricsay
I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick orchestral
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.
Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
it has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.
In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low,
orchestral sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.In Nozze: Fricsay
In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.
In Serail: Fricsay
I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick
Hurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. Februar 2023 um 17:44:46 UTC+1:hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.
Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
it has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.
In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low,
orchestral sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.In Nozze: Fricsay
In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.
In Serail: Fricsay
I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick
was reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings - among them Klemperer's - myself. I really like Hurwitz's personality, and he often offers valuable insights and thoughts - not always ofc, and as far as I remember, he didn't really offer any valuableHurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.Funnily I watched it a few days ago. I haven't watched Hurwitz in a long time; I ofc know about him, but never looked much into his vids, just a bit in the past. So it was quite a coincidence to stumble upon his upload on Klemperer's operas, while I
On another note: I was having doubts about Mengelberg recently, so I was once again on a quest for Beethoven recordings I haven't heard. This brought me to Hurwitz's upload on Beethoven 5 recordings, and I really like one of his favorites: George Szell+ Wiener Philharmoniker; this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvOREC-5gHE
But... I'm still unsure, I think I prefer Mengelberg's style in Beethoven; rubato, carving out details, there is often a real dialogue between the instruments etc. Szell just seems a bit too stiff in Beethoven for me, and maybe also a bit too dry. Hisstyle works better in Haydn. I prefer Szell's B5 to most other B5s, but not sure yet...
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.
Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
it has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.
In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low,
orchestral sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.In Nozze: Fricsay
In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.
In Serail: Fricsay
I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick
Hurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. Februar 2023 um 17:44:46 UTC+1:hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.
Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
it has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.
In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low,
orchestral sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.In Nozze: Fricsay
In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.
In Serail: Fricsay
I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick
the conducting is horrible. I don't know what I was thinking when I liked his Zauberflöte and Don Giovanni, I always had my doubts. For sure I'm happy to have realized my mistake and to move on.Hurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.BTW... I listened to Klemperer's Don Giovanni again last night, and no, it doesn't work at all for me anymore, in fact it has really become unlistenable to me; same with his Zauberflöte. The singing most of the time is really beautiful, but heck...
WRT Erika Köth: I love her, I stumbled upon Fricsay's other Don Giovanni (DVD release sung in German) after listening to Klemperer, she sings Zerlina there - oh man, I love it. The whole production seems to be really great (didn't listen to all of it,since I had to go to bed at some point, but from what I heard I really loved it. Will have to buy.)
With this realization, I'd actually rate Sawallisch (Peter Schreier isn't really as bad as I made him out to be in some other post, but hmm, have to make up my mind) above Klemperer in Zauberflöte, but still below Fricsay; Klemperer is likely atsomewhere at the bottom of my rankings now (also in DG, and DLVDE).
I'd also rate Krips above Klemperer in DG, I'd even rate Mitropoulos above Klemperer in DG.
Another recording I always liked of Klemperer (when I was still listening to Mahler) was DLVDE, but today I'd rate Reiner, Jochum, Horenstein above him.
Anyway, Erika Köth is really great, thanks for mentioning her.
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:conductors now (especially wrt Brahms' Alto-Rhapsody and Mozart. I remember his Mozart KV 550 also being really good, I will have to listen again with my new ears). My favorite Mozart conductors now: Fricsay, Maag and Sawallisch.
I also like her lieder:
https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RKI will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder?
Listened a bit more to Sawallisch yesterday evening/night; Brahms' Alto-Rhapsody, parts of Mozart's Cosi fan tutte and Zauberflöte (the recording with Moser etc). Man, was I wrong about him, he is really good, he likely is one of my favorite
With that said, screw Celibidache honestly... I feel similar about him as I do about Klemperer; some things he does really beautifully, but on the whole it never works out (except maybe in some cases, such as Celibidache's Till Eulenspiegel).emphasises different instruments (or musical ideas) as opposed to other recordings). Klemperer is very harsh and angular; while Celibidache is very soft and round.
Without having thought too deeply about it:
-Similarities (between Celibidache and Klemperer): Both are slow, both are analytical (bringing out the different instruments), both have steady tempi
-Differences: Klemperer basically just goes by the score; while Celibidache changes things in the score (he makes climaxes where there are no climaxes, or the otherway around: doesn't play climaxes where climaxes are noted in the score; or he
I neither like Celibidache nor Klemperer anymore.
I also like her lieder:
https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK
Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuff
I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm...
probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most
definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but
hmmmm... from what I remember I had a lot of issues with
them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the
Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And
Walter ofc.
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
I also like her lieder:
https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RKI will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
I also like her lieder:
https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RKI will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...
The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:
(Y. upload):
"Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger"
If you have a Spotify account, this is probably the lieder
recording that I would use to try to convert others to lieder:
https://open.spotify.com/track/3AClUT7PFOfmbSKb2fL8Gp?si=3e255a295fd043f9&nd=1
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:50:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuffAnyone left?
I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm...
probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most
definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but
hmmmm... from what I remember I had a lot of issues with
them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the
Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And
Walter ofc.
dk
dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 7. Februar 2023 um 22:56:49 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:50:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuff
I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm...
probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most
definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but
hmmmm... from what I remember I had a lot of issues with
them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the
Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And
Walter ofc.
Screw Böhm, Abendroth, Thielemann, Schuricht, Masur and
Wand, Schmidt-Isserstedt as well; screw Barbirolli, Sargent,
Mravinsky, Gergiev, Svetlanov, Bernstein, Szell, Koussevitsky...
well, I guess, screw about 99% of the conductors.
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 11:03:13 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 7. Februar 2023 um 22:56:49 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:50:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuff
I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm...
probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most
definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but
hmmmm... from what I remember I had a lot of issues with
them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the
Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And
Walter ofc.
Screw Böhm, Abendroth, Thielemann, Schuricht, Masur andYou sound like Celibidache! ;-)
Wand, Schmidt-Isserstedt as well; screw Barbirolli, Sargent,
Mravinsky, Gergiev, Svetlanov, Bernstein, Szell, Koussevitsky...
well, I guess, screw about 99% of the conductors.
dk
PS. Time to try some semi-conductors?
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
I also like her lieder:
https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RKI will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...
The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:
(Y. upload):
"Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger"
*Sawallisch is disqualified.definitely, and Fassbaender sometimes too. Reri Grist is great though, the only Mozartean in the whole cast.
I was just listening to some parts of his Cosi again, parts that I had in the back of my mind because they rubbed me the wrong way: specifically Margaret Price and Brigitte Fassbaender. Horrible... just horrible... Price has too much vibrato for me
And Sawallisch's conducting is just a bit heavy... the sound is too heavy for Mozart. I like it more the way Fricsay, Maag and Krips handle things (the orchestra of the recording with Köth that G mentioned is also very nice, and the orchestra of therecord with Ingeborg Hallstein). So difficult finding a competent Mozart conductor... even Fricsay, Maag and Krips are not always great in Mozart.
Guess Karajan's record of cosi is still the best. Should probably check it out again.
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2023 um 21:44:58 UTC+1:definitely, and Fassbaender sometimes too. Reri Grist is great though, the only Mozartean in the whole cast.
*Sawallisch is disqualified.
I was just listening to some parts of his Cosi again, parts that I had in the back of my mind because they rubbed me the wrong way: specifically Margaret Price and Brigitte Fassbaender. Horrible... just horrible... Price has too much vibrato for me
*Fassbaender from I remember also quite often (*too much vibrato), but her voice is just really not to my liking anyway, same with Price. I was just sort of seeing over these thigns I guess when I said I liked it, because well there are parts I likedreally much *Reri Grist.
record with Ingeborg Hallstein). So difficult finding a competent Mozart conductor... even Fricsay, Maag and Krips are not always great in Mozart.And Sawallisch's conducting is just a bit heavy... the sound is too heavy for Mozart. I like it more the way Fricsay, Maag and Krips handle things (the orchestra of the recording with Köth that G mentioned is also very nice, and the orchestra of the
Guess Karajan's record of cosi is still the best. Should probably check it out again.I won't need Sawallisch's 2 DGs after this realization; Fricsay still best.
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
I also like her lieder:
https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RKI will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...
The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:
(Y. upload):
"Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
I also like her lieder:
https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RKI will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...
The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:
(Y. upload):
"Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese RothenbergerConcerning Mozart, Koth also recorded Exsultate jubilate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhC5o7szwo
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 04:23:14 UTC+1:just can't stand Waechter. The problem with Krips still seems to be for me... that he lacks some drama; everything is in perfect control, and it sounds beautiful, but it just doesn't grab me as much.
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
I also like her lieder:
https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RKI will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...
The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:
(Y. upload):
"Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese RothenbergerConcerning Mozart, Koth also recorded Exsultate jubilate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhC5o7szwoFunny you posted this; I just came back to say - sorry g - but I don't like Köth; i should've stuck with my first feeling. In DG with Fricsay she seems to have a lot of vibrato (judging by my standards), and she really gets on my nerves somehow.
Anyway, Fricsay's (the one without Köth, the cd release) is probably still the best DG... and Mitropoulos' is better than I made it out to be; Giulini is also better than I made it out to be, though not as good as Mitropoulos' in my opinion, I also
My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...
My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 23:07:28 UTC+1:have said some of these things before, but I needed to reevaluate it - now I'm very sure).
My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...After listening to parts of Mitropoulos' DG again yesterday... There are beautiful moments, but his conducting just doesn't work... too vulgar and too uncoordinated (the musical line gets disrupted too often); and also a bit too heavy. (Yes, I know I
Favorite = Fricsay, Second favorite = Krips... will still have to decide between the two of them which I like more; leaning towards Fricsay at the moment.fully realized or something; I like that he is lyrical as opposed to Szell who is very stiff; but he is no Mengelberg.
I don't think the others come close to these two recordings (Klemperer is interesting certainly, with a lot of beautiful singing, but I just don't like his concept)
*I also have to take back a little bit of praises wrt Horenstein's B5; he screws up a lot imo (I don't like how he takes the beginning for example), but he has very beautiful moments as well, he seems to have very interesting ideas which just don't get
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 18. Februar 2023 um 09:21:17 UTC+1:have said some of these things before, but I needed to reevaluate it - now I'm very sure).
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 23:07:28 UTC+1:
My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...After listening to parts of Mitropoulos' DG again yesterday... There are beautiful moments, but his conducting just doesn't work... too vulgar and too uncoordinated (the musical line gets disrupted too often); and also a bit too heavy. (Yes, I know I
get fully realized or something; I like that he is lyrical as opposed to Szell who is very stiff; but he is no Mengelberg.Favorite = Fricsay, Second favorite = Krips... will still have to decide between the two of them which I like more; leaning towards Fricsay at the moment.
I don't think the others come close to these two recordings (Klemperer is interesting certainly, with a lot of beautiful singing, but I just don't like his concept)
*I also have to take back a little bit of praises wrt Horenstein's B5; he screws up a lot imo (I don't like how he takes the beginning for example), but he has very beautiful moments as well, he seems to have very interesting ideas which just don't
Fuck it... Krips is just too safe... way too safe... as he seemingly always is (in cosi, in serail, in Mozart PCs with Rubinstein, in Schubert, in Brahms PC with Rubinstein, in the Beethoven I heard)... it just floats along... where is the fun? I'drate Klemperer's above Krips'; same with Busch's which I would probably rate above Klemperer's.
With that said my favorite DG is Fricsay's.
Fav Zauberflöte: Fricsay
Fav Cosi: Karajan
Fav DG: Fricsay
Fav Nozze: Fricsay
Fav Serai: Fricsay
On Monday, February 20, 2023 at 1:31:04 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:from what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 2:52:08 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as
nothing ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works withWRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy,
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
(Y. upload):"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
"Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"(Y. upload):
"Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?
According to this:
- ...Still, Giovanni is a conductor's opera; and it would be difficult to find better work than Busch's--so exciting.
https://www.amazon.com/Don-Giovanni-Mozart/dp/B000026H58According to this:
- Sadly, Don Giovanni is a conductor’s opera, and the Met’s new principal conductor Fabio Luisi simply was not prepared to replace the ailing James Levine.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/understudy
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:from what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as
ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
(Y. upload):"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
"Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"(Y. upload):
"Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 2:52:08 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:from what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).
And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.
For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.
What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.
I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as
nothing ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works withWRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy,
Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.
WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.
WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.
WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.((Y. upload):
(Y. upload):"DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
"Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"(Y. upload):
"Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?
According to this:
- ...Still, Giovanni is a conductor's opera; and it would be difficult to find better work than Busch's--so exciting.
https://www.amazon.com/Don-Giovanni-Mozart/dp/B000026H58
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 23:07:28 UTC+1:have said some of these things before, but I needed to reevaluate it - now I'm very sure).
My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...After listening to parts of Mitropoulos' DG again yesterday... There are beautiful moments, but his conducting just doesn't work... too vulgar and too uncoordinated (the musical line gets disrupted too often); and also a bit too heavy. (Yes, I know I
Favorite = Fricsay, Second favorite = Krips... will still have to decide between the two of them which I like more; leaning towards Fricsay at the moment.fully realized or something; I like that he is lyrical as opposed to Szell who is very stiff; but he is no Mengelberg.
I don't think the others come close to these two recordings (Klemperer is interesting certainly, with a lot of beautiful singing, but I just don't like his concept)
*I also have to take back a little bit of praises wrt Horenstein's B5; he screws up a lot imo (I don't like how he takes the beginning for example), but he has very beautiful moments as well, he seems to have very interesting ideas which just don't get
This is almost driving me crazy... solving the Riemann
hypothesis seems to be an easier task than figuring
out which Mozart opera recordings are the best.
I should also add: Not so sure about Maag being
one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really
liked him only for how he takes the slow movement
of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I
need this recording as I do not like outer movements
(which are connected to the slow movement - there
are transitions, and the slow movement can't really
be taken alone...)
I should also add: Not so sure about Maag being one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really liked him only for how he takes the slow movement of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I need this recording as I do not like outer movements (which are connected to the slow movement - there are transitions, and the slow movement can't really be taken alone...)
Favourite Mozart conductors: Busch (DG), Karajan (Nozze, Cosi), Klemperer (DG, Zauberflöte)
On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 1:16:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
I should also add: Not so sure about Maag beingDo you ever hold an opinion for more than an hour?
one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really
liked him only for how he takes the slow movement
of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I
need this recording as I do not like outer movements
(which are connected to the slow movement - there
are transitions, and the slow movement can't really
be taken alone...)
Except for political ones ofc.
dk
On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 1:16:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:(which are connected to the slow movement - there are transitions, and the slow movement can't really be taken alone...)
I should also add: Not so sure about Maag being one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really liked him only for how he takes the slow movement of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I need this recording as I do not like outer movements
Favourite Mozart conductors: Busch (DG), Karajan (Nozze, Cosi), Klemperer (DG, Zauberflöte)https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/top-five-mozart-opera-recordings.48061/#post-1207724
The only piece that comes to my mind is Mozart's Symphony 32 (I am not too fond of the other Symphonies I heard; but he
Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much.
WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.
Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 18:50:54 UTC+1:Sibelius anyway; Strauss is much better, but I don't care for him either...
Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much.I wasn't really paying too much attention when writing this; as I actually love the texture in Fricsay's Nozze, it's all beautiful as it is. Still I probably need Karajan's 1950 Nozze as well - Schwarzkopf (will decide this one tomorrow).
What I meant to say with "Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay" was that I feel that Karajan is likely better for things like Strauss or Sibelius than Fricsay... I couldn't imagine Fricsay there... but maybe I'm wrong - don't care for
Fricsay's recording (Hollweg vs Streich, Simoneau vs Haefliger etc); and the conducting was beautiful as well I think - makes me wonder why Beecham wasn't so good in Zauberflöte... anyway... this I will think about tomorrow.WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.I think I'll keep this; the slow movement is just really beautiful.
Fricsay (Nozze)
Karajan (Cosi)
Klemperer (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni)
Maag (Symphony 32)
These have all been ordered and Karajan's cosi is already in my hands (still sealed).
Probably I'll need Serail as well... it's between Beecham and Fricsay and probably Randy was right half a year ago when he recommended me Beecham's Serail... I will have to relisten, but from what I remember I think the singers were much better than on
On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:18:13 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:Sibelius anyway; Strauss is much better, but I don't care for him either...
Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 18:50:54 UTC+1:
Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much.I wasn't really paying too much attention when writing this; as I actually love the texture in Fricsay's Nozze, it's all beautiful as it is. Still I probably need Karajan's 1950 Nozze as well - Schwarzkopf (will decide this one tomorrow).
What I meant to say with "Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay" was that I feel that Karajan is likely better for things like Strauss or Sibelius than Fricsay... I couldn't imagine Fricsay there... but maybe I'm wrong - don't care for
on Fricsay's recording (Hollweg vs Streich, Simoneau vs Haefliger etc); and the conducting was beautiful as well I think - makes me wonder why Beecham wasn't so good in Zauberflöte... anyway... this I will think about tomorrow.WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.I think I'll keep this; the slow movement is just really beautiful. Fricsay (Nozze)
Karajan (Cosi)
Klemperer (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni)
Maag (Symphony 32)
These have all been ordered and Karajan's cosi is already in my hands (still sealed).
Probably I'll need Serail as well... it's between Beecham and Fricsay and probably Randy was right half a year ago when he recommended me Beecham's Serail... I will have to relisten, but from what I remember I think the singers were much better than
Good Lord, man. Maag's LSO Mozart 38 is one of the greats, in the same league as his Mendelssohn Scottish. unarguable!
On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:18:13 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:Sibelius anyway; Strauss is much better, but I don't care for him either...
Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 18:50:54 UTC+1:
Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much.I wasn't really paying too much attention when writing this; as I actually love the texture in Fricsay's Nozze, it's all beautiful as it is. Still I probably need Karajan's 1950 Nozze as well - Schwarzkopf (will decide this one tomorrow).
What I meant to say with "Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay" was that I feel that Karajan is likely better for things like Strauss or Sibelius than Fricsay... I couldn't imagine Fricsay there... but maybe I'm wrong - don't care for
on Fricsay's recording (Hollweg vs Streich, Simoneau vs Haefliger etc); and the conducting was beautiful as well I think - makes me wonder why Beecham wasn't so good in Zauberflöte... anyway... this I will think about tomorrow.WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.I think I'll keep this; the slow movement is just really beautiful. Fricsay (Nozze)
Karajan (Cosi)
Klemperer (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni)
Maag (Symphony 32)
These have all been ordered and Karajan's cosi is already in my hands (still sealed).
Probably I'll need Serail as well... it's between Beecham and Fricsay and probably Randy was right half a year ago when he recommended me Beecham's Serail... I will have to relisten, but from what I remember I think the singers were much better than
Good Lord, man. Maag's LSO Mozart 38 is one of the greats, in the same league as his Mendelssohn Scottish. unarguable!
Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.
Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.
Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw
dk
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 18:19:51 UTC+1:favourite as he is genius here too and the orchestra is superb as well.
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 02:37:15 UTC+1:
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.
Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw
Just listened to the outer movements of Gieseking in 467 again; he is genius and he keeps the musical line, not driven at all; it's the orchestra that's at times too vulgar, driven and not keeping the musical line... what a pity. In the end Anda is mydkJust listened to this again after years and ya, this might be the best out there... would have to compare to Gieseking again. The problem for me with Gieseking and even more with Schnabel is that they sometimes sound driven
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 02:37:15 UTC+1:
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.
Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw
dkJust listened to this again after years and ya, this might be the best out there... would have to compare to Gieseking again. The problem for me with Gieseking and even more with Schnabel is that they sometimes sound driven
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 22:58:36 UTC+1:my favourite as he is genius here too and the orchestra is superb as well.
Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 18:19:51 UTC+1:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 02:37:15 UTC+1:
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.
Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw
Just listened to the outer movements of Gieseking in 467 again; he is genius and he keeps the musical line, not driven at all; it's the orchestra that's at times too vulgar, driven and not keeping the musical line... what a pity. In the end Anda isdkJust listened to this again after years and ya, this might be the best out there... would have to compare to Gieseking again. The problem for me with Gieseking and even more with Schnabel is that they sometimes sound driven
There is also a live version of 467 with Anda and Karajan I just realized - Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano... just listened to bits of it, but the one with Anda as the soloist and conductor is much more magical (not sure if theKarajan version even qualifies as being magical, and I'm not interested finding out as it doesn't come close to the other version).
On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
leaving out newer singers in my consideration):
Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone
These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
are OK, tough not great.
My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
sing and hold C8!
dk
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:13:23 UTC+1:actually still wondering whether it is not better than Fricsay's)
Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
leaving out newer singers in my consideration):
Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone
These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
are OK, tough not great.
How about Pierrette Alarie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL7fEqIxW20
I guess my favourite Mozart singers are:
Alarie, Berger, Hallstein probably as well thinking about it, Ludwig, Otto, Grist, Schwarzkopf, probably Seefried as well, Gueden too, but Stader is also not bad... maybe also Moffo (I should relisten to her Susanna on Giulini's recording... I am
Listening again to Alarie I have to pass (listened to it yesterday night and thought it wasn't bad)... no.... she is also kind of shrill sometimes. Streich is probably better than her.doubts about whether he will finish the job or not; and for example in "Wenn der Freude Tränen fliessen", I think that Simoneau sings to himself - it's so beautiful, and Wunderlich sings to the outside... not sure if he works as Belmonte, besides the
Simoneau, Berry, Ghiaruov, Wunderlich, Siepi, maybe Frick (but not in Klemperer's Zauberflöte), John Brownlee, probably also Greindl, Unger... hmmmm and probably a few more.WRT Wunderlich as Belmonte:
The problem with Wunderlich as Belmonte in Jochum's Serail (besides the somewhat restrained conducting) is that he seems to have a too strong voice for the role of Belmonte, like from the get go, as soon as you hear him, you hear a guy that leaves no
My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
sing and hold C8!
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:actually still wondering whether it is not better than Fricsay's)
On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
leaving out newer singers in my consideration):
Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone
These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
are OK, tough not great.
How about Pierrette Alarie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL7fEqIxW20
I guess my favourite Mozart singers are:
Alarie, Berger, Hallstein probably as well thinking about it, Ludwig, Otto, Grist, Schwarzkopf, probably Seefried as well, Gueden too, but Stader is also not bad... maybe also Moffo (I should relisten to her Susanna on Giulini's recording... I am
Simoneau, Berry, Ghiaruov, Wunderlich, Siepi, maybe Frick (but not in Klemperer's Zauberflöte), John Brownlee, probably also Greindl, Unger... hmmmm and probably a few more.
My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
sing and hold C8!
dk
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3 of
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
dkI think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a bit
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3 of
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
dkI think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a bit
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3 of
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
dkI think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a bit
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
I think he has a good idea of texture,Texture makes fine suits.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
I think he has a good idea of texture,
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:bit more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
dkI think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a
Have you ever heard Gedda's 2 Serails?:CgNpbWcQAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEELEDOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToGCAAQBRAeOgYIABAIEB46CQgAEIAEEAoQGDoHCAAQgAQQGFAAWKMxYJ0zaAFwAHgAgAFliAGQCJIBBDE1LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZw&sclient=img
https://www.google.com/search?q=gedda+abduction&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=657&ei=RvQAZJWEC7DBkPIP6eSX0AE&iflsig=AK50M_UAAAAAZAECVoZyElHiVSSfku9WeAC-1HmgL7Ll&ved=0ahUKEwiVv8_6-L39AhWwIEQIHWnyBRoQ4dUDCAc&uact=5&oq=gedda+abduction&gs_lcp=
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:26:42 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
I think he has a good idea of texture,
Texture makes fine suits.
Ask Celibidache - the king of textures.
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:30:46 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:26:42 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.
I think he has a good idea of texture,
Texture makes fine suits.
Ask Celibidache - the king of textures.https://slippedisc.com/2018/04/where-herbert-von-karajan-got-his-high-heels/
I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return Fricsay'sNozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return Fricsay's
In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...
but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:s Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return Fricsay'
should check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...
but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings. I
I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).
The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I listenedto the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.
This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 08:02:54 UTC+1:Fricsay's Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return
should check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...
but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings. I
listened to the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).Okay, forget what I said - I just compared Böhm (1962) to Karajan again (partly) and I just like Karajan more (I also like the singers more in Karajan's recording generally)... he is also really good orchestrally here imo.
So I'll keep his Cosi for sure, and his Nozze (1950) maybe as well in addition to Giulini's - I don't think Böhm's will be as good as Giulini's (I'll listen later when I have time again; as well as his 1955 Cosi).
The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I
Böhm and Krips are great, but I don't find them as special as the ones I mentioned; and in a way Böhm and Krips are similar in their approach I think (having in mind specifically: Krips' DG and Böhm's Cosi 1962) - gemütlich. Karajan surely is notas gemütlich as they are; not saying that gemütlich is always bad, but sometimes a bit more fire would not hurt. Still I rate Böhms and Krips very highly (top 3-5 in the recordings I mentioned probably). I really do not like Kuijken, Harnoncourt,
This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.
Serail: Beecham
Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
DG: Klemperer
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Klemperer
Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:Fricsay's Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 08:02:54 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return
should check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...
but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings. I
listened to the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).Okay, forget what I said - I just compared Böhm (1962) to Karajan again (partly) and I just like Karajan more (I also like the singers more in Karajan's recording generally)... he is also really good orchestrally here imo.
So I'll keep his Cosi for sure, and his Nozze (1950) maybe as well in addition to Giulini's - I don't think Böhm's will be as good as Giulini's (I'll listen later when I have time again; as well as his 1955 Cosi).
The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I
as gemütlich as they are; not saying that gemütlich is always bad, but sometimes a bit more fire would not hurt. Still I rate Böhms and Krips very highly (top 3-5 in the recordings I mentioned probably). I really do not like Kuijken, Harnoncourt,Böhm and Krips are great, but I don't find them as special as the ones I mentioned; and in a way Böhm and Krips are similar in their approach I think (having in mind specifically: Krips' DG and Böhm's Cosi 1962) - gemütlich. Karajan surely is not
This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.
Serail: BeechamSeefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...
Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
DG: Klemperer
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Klemperer
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:Fricsay's Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 08:02:54 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return
I should check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...
but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings.
listened to the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).Okay, forget what I said - I just compared Böhm (1962) to Karajan again (partly) and I just like Karajan more (I also like the singers more in Karajan's recording generally)... he is also really good orchestrally here imo.
So I'll keep his Cosi for sure, and his Nozze (1950) maybe as well in addition to Giulini's - I don't think Böhm's will be as good as Giulini's (I'll listen later when I have time again; as well as his 1955 Cosi).
The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I
not as gemütlich as they are; not saying that gemütlich is always bad, but sometimes a bit more fire would not hurt. Still I rate Böhms and Krips very highly (top 3-5 in the recordings I mentioned probably). I really do not like Kuijken, Harnoncourt,Böhm and Krips are great, but I don't find them as special as the ones I mentioned; and in a way Böhm and Krips are similar in their approach I think (having in mind specifically: Krips' DG and Böhm's Cosi 1962) - gemütlich. Karajan surely is
this with Karajan + Welitsch - Salome final scene:This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.
Okay, I'll look into it; I think i never heard this opera.Serail: BeechamSeefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...
Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
DG: Klemperer
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Klemperer
It seems as if you are trying to get me into Strauss ignoring my earlier statements. Thinking about it, there are things I really like about him; Reiner's Elektra recording (excerpts) is very beautiful, same for his Salome recording (excerpts) and also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIENdKe9yE4
After Mozart probably Strauss made my favourite operas... and Berg is great too, it's just not somethign I can listen to often. I really don't feel much listening to the italian operas... or french or russian or czech
Should maybe try fidelio again.
And ofc I like Celibidache in "Till Eulenspiegel"
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 19:00:06 UTC+1:
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:And Kunz.
Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...I also like George London on Karajan's recording very much btw.
And Jurinac I liked as well as far as I remember in contrast to her on Fricsay's recording.
Thinking about it, I was too nice with Böhm and Krips saying top5 wrt Cosi (Böhm) and DG (Krips)... they are both incredibly boring (generally)... the singers are great, but how can you be so fucking boring...
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.
Serail: Beecham
Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
DG: Klemperer
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Klemperer
Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...
gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:take the stories seriosuly, and I also hate these "triumphant" parts, these parts where the music wants you to feel glorious, like "The Entry of Gods into Valhalla". I feel similarily about the 4th movement of Beethoven's 5th Symphony. These moments seem
On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.
Serail: Beecham
Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
DG: Klemperer
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Klemperer
Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...I've been relistening to some Strauss operas over the last nights; Sawallisch's "Die Frau ohne Schatten", Karajan's "Elektra" and "Ariadne on Naxos", parts of Sawallisch's "Arabella", and also Fritz Reiner's Salome excerpts recording.
I just don't feel much. I'd rate Berg's Wozzeck above any of them. And I'd also rate Wagner operas above Strauss' - there are parts that actually grab me... The problem with Wagner operas for me is that the stories are meant seriously... I just can't
I really love the beginning of Siegfried for example; but then I hate what Siegfried sings about...https://www.sbnation.com/users/cemca
BTW: Erna Berger sucks imo.
Finally:
My favourite Mozart opera recordings are definitely:
Serail: Beecham
Nozze: Karajan (1950)
DG: Klemperer
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Klemperer
They all arrived savely, and I'm happy like a little kid to have them haha. Haven't bought records/cds in ages.
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