• Characteristic Recordings - Celibidache et. al.

    From Notsure01@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 27 04:03:48 2022
    In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
    of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
    collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
    even to hear one!

    Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
    listen for myself.

    The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
    are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
    how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?

    An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
    but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor
    sound.

    Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
    was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
    three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?

    (And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
    for additional artists)

    Thanks in advance!

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 27 09:05:46 2022
    On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 1:03:54 AM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
    of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
    collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
    even to hear one!

    Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
    listen for myself.

    The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
    are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
    how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?

    An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
    but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor sound.

    Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
    was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
    three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?

    (And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
    for additional artists)

    Thanks in advance!

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/75OW-W3aYRg

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 27 08:57:53 2022
    On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 1:03:54 AM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
    of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
    collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
    even to hear one!

    Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
    listen for myself.

    The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
    are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
    how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?

    An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
    but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor sound.

    Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
    was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
    three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?

    (And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
    for additional artists)

    Thanks in advance!

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/plHBl_39aGs/m/nCImaW_pAAAJ

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  • From mswdesign@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 27 11:53:25 2022
    While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.
    Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
    Bruckner 8 is pretty good for a slow take. That's all that comes to mind for me.

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to mswd...@gmail.com on Thu Oct 27 17:02:10 2022
    On 10/27/22 2:53 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
    While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.
    Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
    Bruckner 8 is pretty good for a slow take. That's all that comes to mind for me.

    I appreciate the quick responses! About the links to previous
    discussions, I did check the RMCR archive for previous threads, but
    didn't go that far back. I'm glad to see that my concerns are shared -
    at least by previous generations of RMCR denizens.

    And the dilemma back then was the same as now - or maybe much worse -
    the proliferation of Celi recordings. Although I'm not sure they are characteristic, I chose to quickly listen to a few and now have a
    glimmer of understanding of his appeal. First I sampled a Schubert 9th -
    and it seemed to be nothing special. I then found a Rossini overture,
    "La Pie Voleuse" (Gazza Ladra for us folks from Brooklyn), and I thought
    he did a really masterful job of managing the crescendos.

    Most recently I've been listening to a YouTube La Mer - Danish Radiosymfoniorkestret
    Copenhagen, March 1971. The playing seemed scrappy in spots, but I could
    see the attention to phrasing and pacing, and he sure made the second
    and third movements exciting.

    It would still be great to hear from other folks - ideally specifying particular versions of popular works.

    And I know it will lead to "Dancing about Architecture" - and a few toes
    will thus be stepped on - but it would great if folks could include
    comments on *why* the Celi interpretation is special - Mswd did this
    well - was it the precision of the playing - the attention to phrasing -
    the pacing - the tempos - the balances - hightlighting of inner voices,
    or...?

    There is certainly value to threads where people say "I appreciate
    maestro X's version" but even better would be if they elaborated on why...

    Thanks again!!

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 27 14:24:33 2022
    On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 2:02:15 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/27/22 2:53 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
    While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.
    Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
    Bruckner 8 is pretty good for a slow take. That's all that comes to mind for me.
    I appreciate the quick responses! About the links to previous
    discussions, I did check the RMCR archive for previous threads, but
    didn't go that far back. I'm glad to see that my concerns are shared -
    at least by previous generations of RMCR denizens.

    And the dilemma back then was the same as now - or maybe much worse -
    the proliferation of Celi recordings. Although I'm not sure they are characteristic, I chose to quickly listen to a few and now have a
    glimmer of understanding of his appeal. First I sampled a Schubert 9th -
    and it seemed to be nothing special. I then found a Rossini overture,
    "La Pie Voleuse" (Gazza Ladra for us folks from Brooklyn), and I thought
    he did a really masterful job of managing the crescendos.

    Most recently I've been listening to a YouTube La Mer - Danish Radiosymfoniorkestret
    Copenhagen, March 1971. The playing seemed scrappy in spots, but I could
    see the attention to phrasing and pacing, and he sure made the second
    and third movements exciting.

    It would still be great to hear from other folks - ideally specifying particular versions of popular works.

    And I know it will lead to "Dancing about Architecture" - and a few toes will thus be stepped on - but it would great if folks could include
    comments on *why* the Celi interpretation is special - Mswd did this
    well - was it the precision of the playing - the attention to phrasing -
    the pacing - the tempos - the balances - hightlighting of inner voices, or...?

    There is certainly value to threads where people say "I appreciate
    maestro X's version" but even better would be if they elaborated on why...

    Thanks again!!

    The following may be of interest:

    http://www.classicalnotes.net/columns/celiweb.html

    http://www.classicalnotes.net/reviews/celibidache.html

    http://www.classicalnotes.net/reviews/celibidache_conducts.html

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  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to mswd...gmail.com on Thu Oct 27 14:42:27 2022
    On Friday, 28 October 2022 at 05:53:28 UTC+11, mswd...gmail.com wrote:
    While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.
    Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
    Bruckner 8 is pretty good for a slow take. That's >all that comes to mind for me.

    I have a Kultur Spiegel twofer of Celi's 4 and 6. The 4th was recorded in 1988 and the 6th in 1991. Ths is not the Bruckner I need, but it was worth the listen. The problem is really that Celi brings a magnitude and weight to Bruckner, that the music
    cannot really warrant. At the end of the day the music sounds overly pompous, and way over-reverent. Like Celi himself.

    I still think that Jochum (EMI) is more in line with the Bruckner I go to, or maybe Tintner (with his slightly lesser orchestras). Wand is fine too (I have the RCA with his Cologne band). If the Barenboim/Chicago Bruckner ever gets a reprint, I might
    well spring for it, as I have heard so many good things about it.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to mswd...@gmail.com on Thu Oct 27 15:41:55 2022
    On 10/27/22 11:53 AM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
    While sticking mostly to standard tempi in Bruckner 4, he takes the final movement far slower than anyone else, and the results are consistently recognized as unparalleled in impact. But this is the rare case of tasteful application of broader tempi.
    Most often late Celi is consistently slow, and to the detriment of the music, by my ears. The EMI Debussy disc is one of the better ones even if it is nowhere near a first choice for me. His Bruckner 6 is excellent if not really extreme at all; his
    Bruckner 8 is pretty good for a slow take. That's all that comes to mind for me.

    My list would be pretty much the same as yours, though I wouldn't
    include the Bruckner 8; it's just too slow. The B4--especially the
    Finale--is sui generis. The Debussy is one of my guilty pleasures. I
    know it's 'wrong', but I find it irresistible.

    I'll have to re-listen to some other works to see whether anything
    strikes me like those mentioned.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Thu Oct 27 18:33:49 2022
    On 10/27/22 5:42 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
    The problem is really that Celi brings a magnitude and weight to Bruckner, that the music cannot really warrant. At the end of the day the music sounds overly pompous, and way over-reverent. Like Celi himself.

    I still think that Jochum (EMI) is more in line with the Bruckner I go to

    Thanks, Ray.

    I agree with you about Jochum - I've enjoyed both of his versions of the Bruckner 4th. I think of the Szell crack about "choc sauce on asparagus"
    and agree it doesn't help that conductors, when trying for profundity,
    pour chocolate sirup all over chocolate bars. (I was just recently
    listening to the Kertesz version of the 4th with the LSO - he doesn't
    try to do too much interpretation, and he does it very well).

    And I appreciate the links to those interesting articles by Peter
    Gutmann. I like his stuff - I think I share his mannerism of using
    flowery rhetorical language in an endeavor to be interesting - and
    appreciate his thoughtful opinions. But I'm still hoping for a pointer
    to just one or two particular Celi versions along with commentary, for
    example:

    Here is a link to the Feb 29, 1968 performance with the Munich
    Philharmonic of Cage's 4'33". Celi's slow tempos increase the suspense
    and he ensures that all of the notes are heard clearly...

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 30 01:27:46 2022
    On Thursday, October 27, 2022 at 1:03:54 AM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
    of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
    collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
    even to hear one!

    Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
    listen for myself.

    The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
    are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
    how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?

    An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
    but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor sound.

    Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
    was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
    three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?

    (And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
    for additional artists)

    Thanks in advance!

    Does this apply to S.C.?:

    - If I am not better, at least I am different. (Rousseau)

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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 30 20:44:01 2022
    On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 01:03:48 -0700, Notsure01 wrote
    (in article <tjde15$qoa$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
    of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
    collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
    even to hear one!

    Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
    listen for myself.

    The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
    are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
    how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?
    Look for him conducting the Munich Philharmonic, like his 49 CD box
    set The Munich Years, 48 CDs of Munich, at a far cheaper price than
    the way I bought those 48 CDs, individually.

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 31 01:19:52 2022
    Recommending a 49 CD box to someone who just asks for a good recording to get acquainted?

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Oct 31 07:57:20 2022
    On 10/31/2022 4:19 AM, Herman wrote:


    Recommending a 49 CD box to someone who just asks for a good recording to get acquainted?


    Scold, scold. scold.

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Mon Oct 31 13:49:06 2022
    On 10/30/22 11:44 PM, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Thu, 27 Oct 2022 01:03:48 -0700, Notsure01 wrote
    (in article <tjde15$qoa$1@gioia.aioe.org>):

    In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
    of a work But with so many,
    how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?

    Look for him conducting the Munich Philharmonic, like his 49 CD box
    set The Munich Years, 48 CDs of Munich, at a far cheaper price than
    the way I bought those 48 CDs, individually.


    I appreciate the responses. As was pointed out, the thread must have
    been scanned quickly, since I feel reluctant to invest in acquiring any
    of Celi's work without first sampling it - I've been hoping folks could
    point to one or two characteristic Celi versions of a familiar work that
    shows him at his best.

    Based on previous suggestions, I listened to the Bruckner 4th on Warner: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7925013--bruckner-symphony-no-4-in-eb-major-romantic

    My initial impressions are that with the (extremely) slow tempo of the
    first movement intro Celi did a masterful job of setting the atmosphere.
    I also noticed many felicitous touches of phrasing - particularly with
    the strings (when lesser interpretations - by other maestri - slip into routine, the individuality of string phrasing is the first to go)

    While the slow movement was milked for sentiment - and almost goes too
    far - the scherzo was just great - exciting, but avoiding excessive
    noisiness.

    And the finale has a phenomenal impact - well paced, very slow in some
    of the contrasting sections, but ultimately thrilling.

    As you can tell, I've become a believer... almost!

    I have reservations since I also sampled another favorite work -
    Scheherazade (This YT version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqv5yX5WaU0)

    While I hear the same individual phrasing, and masterful building of
    climaxes, it is surely too slow -- the Sultan sounds half asleep already
    in the beginning phrases, and the placid sections risk putting him into
    a profound slumber.

    Of course this preferable to having a routine version - though actually
    this work is such a masterpiece that I haven't heard a really bad
    performance - and I must have 20 versions!

    I'd still be happy to hear from other people about particular superior
    Celi versions - and I'd like to again thank those who helped!

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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 31 17:32:51 2022
    On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 01:19:52 -0700, Herman wrote
    (in article<dfd60bf8-e14e-418d-abef-a312389897edn@googlegroups.com>):


    Recommending a 49 CD box to someone who just asks for a good recording to get acquainted?

    Sure! But mainly to point out that Munich Philharmonic are to
    look for for Celibidache, and not needing the dim oldmono
    recordings the poster was worried about having to listen to.

    I also forgot to give the discogs link, which gives linksto
    the original CDs:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13261915-Sergiu-Celibidache-M%C3%BCnchner-Philharmoniker-The-Munich-Years

    These were always full priced CDs.

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  • From Alex Brown@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 1 09:01:53 2022
    On Thursday, 27 October 2022 at 09:03:54 UTC+1, Notsure01 wrote:
    In a previous thread a recommendation was made for a Celibidache version
    of a work, and I realized that even though I've been a long-time
    collector, somehow I've managed to not own any of his recordings - or
    even to hear one!

    Of course I've heard of his reputation - slow tempos, live recordings exclusively, etc, but now I'd like to see what the fuss is about and
    listen for myself.

    The obvious next step would be to pick a performance on Youtube - they
    are abundant - or find one on my streaming service. But with so many,
    how would I know the ones I choose show him at his best?

    An answer might be to locate some critics list of 10-best or whatever,
    but that might include versions of obscure repertoire or those with poor sound.

    Over the years RMCR has been a great resource of practical advice, so I
    was wondering if folks here could provide guidance - what are two or
    three of the specific versions of standard works that show what makes Celibidache so special? And even better, in your view what makes the performance so distinctive?

    (And if this seems like a useful suggestion, guidance could be provided
    for additional artists)

    Thanks in advance!
    Best first.

    Bruckner 6 (EMI) - his best recording and maybe the best recording of the work. His didactic approach works especially well with Bruckner's argument.

    Bruckner 4 (EMI or Sony) - eccentric & massive if you can do slow, impressive!

    Bruckner 8 (Sony or Altus) - even more eccentrically slow but again his way can convince if you can stand it. The EMI one is just too slow and the Adagio falls apart.

    Wagner etc. bleeding chunks (EMI) - Celi's pomposity is a perfect match for Wagner's. Shame he wasn't an opera house guy.

    Tod und Verklarung. Again the mystical bollocks in this music is a good fit for Celi. The Stuttgart recording (DGG) is the most exciting but has a horrid harp at the end. The one on MPO's label doesn't have this fault and is in better sound, if not quite
    so scorching.

    Schumman Rhenish symphony (EMI). A surprise hit! Must've been a good night. Really good trenchant performance recording with predictable grandeur when needed.

    Bach B Minor mass (EMI). Not at all what you'd expect. Sensible and spry with good singers so if you want modern instruments worth a spin.

    Pretty much everything else is either is in lousy sound or freakshow slow.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 2 13:59:06 2022
    Too lazy to write much, but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3) with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is pretty much peerless (except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).

    He just does stuff really beautifully, listen to the interplay between the winds and the strings a bit before the ending of the 4th Movement of Brahms 4, and just listen to the ending(!)... he really lets the music breathe.

    I like pretty much everything he conducted, except for works by Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Nov 2 15:26:06 2022
    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Too lazy to write much,

    Thank you! Brevity is very much appreciated! ;-)

    but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3)
    with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is
    pretty much peerless

    Absolutely, not only "pretty much"!

    (except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).

    Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
    both live.

    He just does stuff really beautifully, listen to
    the interplay between the winds and the strings
    a bit before the ending of the 4th Movement of
    Brahms 4, and just listen to the ending(!)... he
    really lets the music breathe.

    I like pretty much everything he conducted,
    except for works by Haydn, Mozart and
    Beethoven.

    Did you get a chance to hear Celi live?

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Thu Nov 3 11:20:00 2022
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 2. November 2022 um 23:26:09 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Too lazy to write much,
    Thank you! Brevity is very much appreciated! ;-)
    but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3)
    with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is
    pretty much peerless
    Absolutely, not only "pretty much"!
    (except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).
    Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
    both live.

    Yes, very different approaches. I would still recommend Klemperer's highly, but after hearing Celibidache's I just really can't listen to it anymore.

    Furtwängler's sounds like a mad man conducting, I don't know if this suits the character of the piece, it sure doesn't feel like it, and he fucks up many passages which Celibidache illuminates beautifully.
    I think harmony is very important in Brahms. You need time to let it unfold. And therefore rushed versions generally feel wrong to me in the case of Brahms - so while different approaches work, I still am looking for something in an approach towards
    Brahms (not rushed).

    I like pretty much everything he conducted,
    except for works by Haydn, Mozart and
    Beethoven.
    Did you get a chance to hear Celi live?

    No, I haven't. I was a kid when he died, and I was still listening to shitty music back then - like Michael Jackson, I've got to see him live twice ;D once in concert and once I gave him a rose when he arrived at an hotel in seoul, haha ;D

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Nov 4 16:31:15 2022
    On 11/3/22 11:20 AM, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 2. November 2022 um 23:26:09 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Too lazy to write much,
    Thank you! Brevity is very much appreciated! ;-)
    but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3)
    with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is
    pretty much peerless
    Absolutely, not only "pretty much"!
    (except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).
    Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
    both live.

    Yes, very different approaches. I would still recommend Klemperer's highly, but after hearing Celibidache's I just really can't listen to it anymore.

    Furtwängler's sounds like a mad man conducting, I don't know if this suits the character of the piece, it sure doesn't feel like it, and he fucks up many passages which Celibidache illuminates beautifully.
    I think harmony is very important in Brahms. You need time to let it unfold. And therefore rushed versions generally feel wrong to me in the case of Brahms - so while different approaches work, I still am looking for something in an approach towards
    Brahms (not rushed).

    Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more.
    Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired,
    but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by
    comparison. As always, YMMV.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Nov 4 22:07:07 2022
    On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 2. November 2022 um 23:26:09 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    (except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).
    Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
    both live.

    Yes, very different approaches. I would still
    recommend Klemperer's highly, but after
    hearing Celibidache's I just really can't
    listen to it anymore.

    Klemp's live Brahms 1st terrified me.
    I scrambled for the nearest exit.

    Did you get a chance to hear Celi live?

    No, I haven't. I was a kid when he died,
    and I was still listening to shitty music

    At least you seem to have recovered.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Fri Nov 4 22:12:19 2022
    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 4:31:20 PM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 11/3/22 11:20 AM, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 2. November 2022 um 23:26:09 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 1:59:09 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Too lazy to write much,
    Thank you! Brevity is very much appreciated! ;-)
    but I think his Brahms 4 (as well as 1 and 3)
    with the Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI) is
    pretty much peerless
    Absolutely, not only "pretty much"!
    (except for Klemperer in Brahms 1 maybe).
    Very different approaches. BTW I heard them
    both live.

    Yes, very different approaches. I would still
    recommend Klemperer's highly, but after hearing
    Celibidache's I just really can't listen to it anymore.

    Furtwängler's sounds like a mad man conducting, I
    don't know if this suits the character of the piece, it
    sure doesn't feel like it, and he fucks up many passages
    which Celibidache illuminates beautifully.
    I think harmony is very important in Brahms. You need
    time to let it unfold. And therefore rushed versions generally
    feel wrong to me in the case of Brahms - so while different
    approaches work, I still am looking for something in an
    approach towards Brahms (not rushed).

    Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not
    disagree more. Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution
    leaves something to be desired, but for me his Brahms
    4th is sui generis, and all others pale by comparison.

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sat Nov 5 11:54:29 2022
    On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk

    I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
    impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms
    was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
    extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Sat Nov 5 16:39:17 2022
    On 11/5/22 2:54 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk

    I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
    impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms
    was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
    extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.

    Bob Harper

    Bob, I totally agree with you about Celibidache's Brahms 4th (at least
    this version). While Celi has beautiful phrasing, and the tempo is fine,
    some dimensions are lacking.

    I find a sense of, for lack of a better word, agitation in the music in
    the first movement - just like Mozart no. 40 - and this is not
    emphasized by Celi.

    And there is a dramatic dimension also that is missing.

    I listened to Furtwangler's 1943 BPO 4th and he captures these
    characteristics perfectly.

    FWIW I quickly listened to several 4ths first movements and find that
    Jochum with the BPO finds the right balance, and Steinberg PSO and
    Dorati LSO are special also...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Sun Nov 6 11:21:20 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 00:31:20 UTC+1:
    On 11/3/22 11:20 AM, Marc S wrote:
    Furtwängler's sounds like a mad man conducting, I don't know if this suits the character of the piece, it sure doesn't feel like it, and he fucks up many passages which Celibidache illuminates beautifully.
    I think harmony is very important in Brahms. You need time to let it unfold. And therefore rushed versions generally feel wrong to me in the case of Brahms - so while different approaches work, I still am looking for something in an approach towards
    Brahms (not rushed).
    Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more.
    Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired,
    but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by
    comparison. As always, YMMV.

    Bob Harper

    Interesting, I guess we view this work differently. I find it very difficult to talk about this, but to me Brahms seems to be somewhat coming to terms with things, with life, that hope often is treacherous, and one should not celebrate too early. With
    the 3rd movement being the celebrating moment, a bit of fun in the darkness - and then the 4th movement being the darkest of them all, and also very austere and distanced, maybe a warning, it's not an angry "Beethovian" outcry mixed with "Schumannic"
    angst like FW makes it out to be imo. It's mature Brahms.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sun Nov 6 11:30:02 2022
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 06:07:10 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 11:20:03 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Yes, very different approaches. I would still
    recommend Klemperer's highly, but after
    hearing Celibidache's I just really can't
    listen to it anymore.
    Klemp's live Brahms 1st terrified me.
    I scrambled for the nearest exit.

    Terrified in what way? Shouldn't the beginning at least be terrifying? And I think Celibidache is missing it here a bit maybe (would have to relisten, I only really love 4, and 3 a bit less), which is why I mentioned Klemperer actually. I think Klemperer
    is not good in Brahms in general, too mechanical and no fluidity (in contrast to Celibidache's, like you say below), maybe too focused on rhythm (which ofc is important in Brahms, but it seems too mechanical to me.).

    Did you get a chance to hear Celi live?

    No, I haven't. I was a kid when he died,
    and I was still listening to shitty music
    At least you seem to have recovered.

    dk

    In part thanks to your posts, so thanks for that haha ;D

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Nov 6 11:43:51 2022
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 6. November 2022 um 20:37:42 UTC+1:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:
    On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk
    I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
    extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.

    Bob Harper
    I don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been reading
    the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.

    "I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight to
    my Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration.

    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
    scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
    cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896

    Oh, found the quote here: https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/

    Not sure if it's legitimate (as in: I haven't put in any research), but they seem legit.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Nov 6 11:38:39 2022
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 6. November 2022 um 20:21:23 UTC+1:
    Interesting, I guess we view this work differently. I find it very difficult to talk about this, but to me Brahms seems to be somewhat coming to terms with things, with life, that hope often is treacherous, and one should not celebrate too early. With
    the 3rd movement being the celebrating moment, a bit of fun in the darkness - and then the 4th movement being the darkest of them all, and also very austere and distanced, maybe a warning, it's not an angry "Beethovian" outcry mixed with "Schumannic"
    angst like FW makes it out to be imo. It's mature Brahms.

    *outcry at fate

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Sun Nov 6 11:37:40 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:
    On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk
    I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
    impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
    extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.

    Bob Harper

    I don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been reading
    the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.

    "I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight to my
    Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration.

    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their scores,
    and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch cannot
    bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896

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  • From mswdesign@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Sun Nov 6 18:44:34 2022
    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:31:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
    Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more.
    Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired,
    but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by
    comparison. As always, YMMV.
    Bob Harper

    I'm with Bob. Furtwangler's Brahms 4 is genius-level interpretation to my ears. But we are all on different paths and will hear differently.

    I will say that there are a good number fo Furtwangler recordings I initially recoiled from. Later, my feelings were quite different. I'm not going to claim that my experience later was "superior" to the earlier. Time changes, you change, and you find
    that certain things make more sense, and in wonderful ways. Whether you get to that "there" doesn't matter. Find what you enjoy, and later, find something else. You'll end up somewhere good no matter what.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to mswd...@gmail.com on Sun Nov 6 19:16:57 2022
    On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:44:37 PM UTC-8, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:31:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
    Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more. Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired, but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by comparison. As always, YMMV.
    Bob Harper
    I'm with Bob. Furtwangler's Brahms 4 is genius-level interpretation to my ears. But we are all on different paths and will hear differently.

    I will say that there are a good number fo Furtwangler recordings I initially recoiled from. Later, my feelings were quite different. I'm not going to claim that my experience later was "superior" to the earlier. Time changes, you change, and you find
    that certain things make more sense, and in wonderful ways. Whether you get to that "there" doesn't matter. Find what you enjoy, and later, find something else. You'll end up somewhere good no matter what.

    - A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.

    Muhammed Ali

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to mswd...@gmail.com on Mon Nov 7 02:16:00 2022
    mswd...@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 03:44:37 UTC+1:
    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:31:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
    Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more. Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired, but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by comparison. As always, YMMV.
    Bob Harper
    I'm with Bob. Furtwangler's Brahms 4 is genius-level interpretation to my ears. But we are all on different paths and will hear differently.

    I will say that there are a good number fo Furtwangler recordings I initially recoiled from. Later, my feelings were quite different. I'm not going to claim that my experience later was "superior" to the earlier. Time changes, you change, and you find
    that certain things make more sense, and in wonderful ways. Whether you get to that "there" doesn't matter. Find what you enjoy, and later, find something else. You'll end up somewhere good no matter what.

    FW was actually the first conductor I really admired, I remember listening to his Beethoven 9th and 6th quite often and thinking highly of his Mozart 40 and 39 (5 years or so ago) - today I don't like any of it ( I would rate him higher than other
    conductors for sure, but he has not made a recording that I consider reference).

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Nov 7 02:19:18 2022
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 04:16:59 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:44:37 PM UTC-8, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 6:31:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
    Assuming you are talking about the Brahms 4, I could not disagree more. Yes, Furtwängler's orchestral execution leaves something to be desired, but for me his Brahms 4th is sui generis, and all others pale by comparison. As always, YMMV.
    Bob Harper
    I'm with Bob. Furtwangler's Brahms 4 is genius-level interpretation to my ears. But we are all on different paths and will hear differently.

    I will say that there are a good number fo Furtwangler recordings I initially recoiled from. Later, my feelings were quite different. I'm not going to claim that my experience later was "superior" to the earlier. Time changes, you change, and you
    find that certain things make more sense, and in wonderful ways. Whether you get to that "there" doesn't matter. Find what you enjoy, and later, find something else. You'll end up somewhere good no matter what.
    - A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.

    Muhammed Ali

    Yes, we should all listen to Muhammed Ali, one of the wisest fellows that have ever walked the earth ;)

    Now take the quote into context: Dan changed his mind quite often over the years ;) Furthermore it would even be impossible to view the world the same way at 50 as one did with 20, even if you tried to do it...

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Nov 7 10:14:15 2022
    On 11/6/22 11:37 AM, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:
    On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk
    I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
    impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true,
    autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms
    was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
    extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.

    Bob Harper

    I don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been reading
    the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.

    "I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight to
    my Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration.

    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
    scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
    cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896

    Thank you for that; I had never seen it. It would seem then that Brahms
    lacked the virtue of hope, which is a tragedy. I hope I'm wrong about that.

    Bob Harper

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  • From MickeyBoy@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Nov 7 13:32:42 2022
    On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:37:42 PM UTC-6, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:
    On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk
    I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
    extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.

    Bob Harper
    I don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been reading
    the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.

    "I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight to
    my Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration.

    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
    scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
    cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896

    Does anyone have a source for this quotation?

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Nov 7 13:47:49 2022
    On 11/5/22 11:54 AM, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk

    I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very
    impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms
    was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some
    extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.

    Bob Harper

    As it happens, Paul Goldstein recently posted his transfer of the DG LP
    of the Brahms 4 recorded by the BPO with Otto Gerdes conducting. It is tremendous, with power approaching that of WF, but in modern stereo.
    Tempi are quite similar to Celi (total time is around 43 minutes), but
    there the comparison ends. Gerdes is much more dynamic and inflected, to
    the music's great advantage, IMO. There's a link on Paul's FB page.
    Highly recommended.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Nov 7 14:13:23 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 19:14:19 UTC+1:
    Thank you for that; I had never seen it. It would seem then that Brahms lacked the virtue of hope, which is a tragedy. I hope I'm wrong about that.

    Bob Harper

    I said that hope is _often_ treacherous, not always. That is also just my intepretation. And judging by the quote it even seems that Brahms believed in Jesus' miracles (at least by the time he said this), since he believed in god, he sure must have had
    some hope ;)

    The finale of Brahms' 4th acts sort of as an "opposite" to the finale in Beethoven's 9th imo.

    The finale of Beethoven's 9th sort of paints a utopian picture in which all humans unite in joy (hopefully they do one day!), it is a bit naive, or too hopeful maybe. People back then thought (Age of Enlightenment, French Revolution etc.) that
    everything is going to get better, but what did it all lead to? The Holocaust. (hope turned out to be treacherous)

    And the finale in Brahms 4 is more reflected.

    I actually just relistened to Furtwängler and no, he is just too neurotic for me - I think he is not too bad and much better than Kleiber and Klemperer, he would probably be my second choice. And the finale is not nearly as strong as Celibidache's.
    Celibidache gets such force out of his orchestra. There are parts where I would agree that Celibidache is maybe a bit "loose", stretching things a bit too much, but imo it works much better than Furtwängler's approach. And I like this introspective and
    distanced approach here much more than an emotional one.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to MickeyBoy on Mon Nov 7 14:15:48 2022
    MickeyBoy schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 22:32:45 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 1:37:42 PM UTC-6, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 5. November 2022 um 19:54:33 UTC+1:
    On 11/4/22 10:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

    Even this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EgkwqBIx-k

    Celi's readings have a fluidity no other conductor I
    ever heard could match consistently. Sometimes
    Martinon comes close conducting French music.

    dk
    I listened to it, and found the beauty of the playing, etc. very impressive. But for me the power was missing. To me, the 4th is, true, autumnal, but also filled with rage at the notion of dissolution (Brahms was, I believe, an atheist). That's what I hear from F, and to some extent from CK. A matter of taste, I suppose.

    Bob Harper
    I don't think Brahms was an Atheist, I think he believed in god, just not in the bible, at least that's what I got from reading about him on online forums and some articles (no books yet - not enough time right now) - he also seems to have been
    reading the bible quite a bit if I remember correctly.

    "I will now tell you and your young friend here about my method of communicating with the Infinite, for all truly inspired ideas come from God. Beethoven, who was my ideal, was well aware of this. When I feel the urge, I begin by appealing straight
    to my Maker…. Straightaway the ideas flow in upon me, directly from God, and not only do I see distinct themes in my mind’s eyes, but they are clothed in the right forms, harmonies and orchestration.

    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
    scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
    cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896
    Does anyone have a source for this quotation?

    This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/

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  • From MickeyBoy@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 7 14:51:33 2022
    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
    scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
    cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896
    Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
    This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/

    Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to MickeyBoy on Mon Nov 7 18:03:50 2022
    On 11/7/2022 5:51 PM, MickeyBoy wrote:

    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
    scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
    cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896
    Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
    This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/

    Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.

    Proving only that the greatest artists can be fruitcakes.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Nov 7 15:10:01 2022
    Frank Berger schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 00:03:58 UTC+1:
    On 11/7/2022 5:51 PM, MickeyBoy wrote:

    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
    scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
    cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896
    Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
    This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/

    Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.
    Proving only that the greatest artists can be fruitcakes.

    Pretty stupid comment to make in this context and regarding Brahms' person, considering the context of his time his views are pretty much understandable and not the least as meshuggeh as some of the statements of chabad rabbis... Go fuck yourself Frank,
    you are an idiot. But I wish you the best for your health.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to MickeyBoy on Mon Nov 7 15:15:39 2022
    MickeyBoy schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 23:51:36 UTC+1:
    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read their
    scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The branch
    cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896
    Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
    This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/
    Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.

    That's very much what I thought about Brahms' relationship with Christianity. It's "Gesänge" in this case in German ;) Vier ernste Gesänge. I don't really know why Brahms didn't call this Lieder, but Gesänge.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Nov 7 15:37:32 2022
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 00:10:04 UTC+1:
    Frank Berger schrieb am Dienstag, 8. November 2022 um 00:03:58 UTC+1:
    On 11/7/2022 5:51 PM, MickeyBoy wrote:

    You see, the powers from which all truly great composers like Mozart, Schubert, Bach and Beethoven drew their inspirations is the same power that enabled Jesus to do his miracles. I know several young composers who are atheists. I have read
    their scores, and I assure you, Joseph, that they are doomed to speedy oblivion, because they are utterly lacking in inspiration. Their works are purely cerebral. The great Nazarene (Jesus) knew that law also, and He proclaimed it in John 15:4, ‘The
    branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.’ No atheist has ever been or ever will be a great composer."

    Brahms to a journalist in 1896
    Does anyone have a source for this quotation?
    This is where I got it from (mentioned it below the post you quoted): https://www.christianheritageedinburgh.org.uk/2016/08/20/spiritual-lives-of-the-great-composers/

    Thanks very much. I have contacted the site. Brahms was a Lutheran from Hamburg and seemed to have had a problem with the Gospel part of the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Think of the Vier erste Lieder.
    Proving only that the greatest artists can be fruitcakes.
    Pretty stupid comment to make in this context and regarding Brahms' person, considering the context of his time his views are pretty much understandable and not the least as meshuggeh as some of the statements of chabad rabbis... Go fuck yourself Frank,
    you are an idiot. But I wish you the best for your health.

    And not to forget, as of yet, he seems to have been right about no atheist ever being a great composer ;)

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Fri Nov 11 07:52:36 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 7. November 2022 um 22:47:54 UTC+1:
    As it happens, Paul Goldstein recently posted his transfer of the DG LP
    of the Brahms 4 recorded by the BPO with Otto Gerdes conducting. It is tremendous, with power approaching that of WF, but in modern stereo.
    Tempi are quite similar to Celi (total time is around 43 minutes), but
    there the comparison ends. Gerdes is much more dynamic and inflected, to
    the music's great advantage, IMO. There's a link on Paul's FB page.
    Highly recommended.

    Bob Harper

    Sorry for coming back to this, but I couldn't get the FW recording (1943) out of my mind since you mentioned it again and listened to both (Celibidache 1985 and Furtwängler) again yesterday evening (btw the Furtwängler 1949 in Wiesbaden is around 43
    minutes as well). Haven't heard the one by Gerdes (first time I heard this name), but I don't really expect him to be a match for C or FW (for me). I really don't like Klemperer at all in Brahms anymore (but that goes for most conductors anyway). If I
    remember correctly (not sure if I would think the same today), Horenstein was also very good in Brahms - I really liked the tragic ouverture... and Brahms 1 (with the LPO?) was also quite nice (3 and 4 were with some not so good orchestras I think?).

    Anyway, in regards to "power", I think WF doesn't nearly achieve as much power as Celibidache. Just look at the finale of the 4th movement. WF just drives right through it, which is intense in it's own way, but the power (in specific moments) has no time
    to unfold. C otoh really lets the sound unfold itself.

    Just this moment for example, Celibidache makes the violins really scream, there is a crescendo there, and with each "step" the screams get more intense until it calms down: https://youtu.be/RZgD7Nn3isw?t=2620

    Furtwängler just drives through this, he doesn't let the sound unfold, I don't have any time to "feel the sound", like it's over before I had any time to appreciate it: https://youtu.be/9I-Ovumi9mA?t=2258

    Also, don't take that "morally corrupted" too much at heart (you probably didn't give a shit anyway): From how you interacted with me and what you wrote, you are one of the few persons I like on here (Frank as well, even though he is a bit weird and
    seems to despise me for something he doesn't even know anymore ;D And Henk as well, even if he propagates Antisemitic organisations like Amnesty, and ofc Melmoth as well ;D), but I just really don't understand how you just can't see how fucked up Herman('
    s behaviour) is (especially in regards to dan). I don't even think that Dan's insults (be it in regards to other members or pianists or whoever) is an issue worthy to be talking about, I think he is funny (most of the times anyway) ;) and for people who
    feel "offended", well... I just feel sorry.

    People these days are so fucking soft (crying about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.

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  • From Gerard@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 11 17:34:09 2022
    Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:

    People these days are so fucking soft (crying about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.

    People these days are so fucking arrogant (crying about everything)...
    that is the problem.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Gerard on Mon Nov 14 01:26:44 2022
    On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 8:34:13 AM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:
    Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:

    People these days are so fucking soft (crying
    about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.

    People these days are so fucking arrogant
    (crying about everything)... that is the problem.

    You and the BENEFRALUX gang cry far more
    than anyone else in this newgroup. You also
    contribute nothing of interest to the rest of
    the world.

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Gerard on Mon Nov 14 14:05:36 2022
    Gerard schrieb am Freitag, 11. November 2022 um 17:34:13 UTC+1:
    Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:

    People these days are so fucking soft (crying about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.
    People these days are so fucking arrogant (crying about everything)...
    that is the problem.

    I love making idiots like you whine, this is part of my joy here ;D

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Tue Nov 15 01:02:08 2022
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 14. November 2022 um 10:26:47 UTC+1:
    On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 8:34:13 AM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:
    Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:

    People these days are so fucking soft (crying
    about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.

    People these days are so fucking arrogant
    (crying about everything)... that is the problem.
    You and the BENEFRALUX gang cry far more
    than anyone else in this newgroup. You also
    contribute nothing of interest to the rest of
    the world.

    dk

    I agree.

    Just for fun I typed in "brainfucked imbecile" in google search and the first entry to come up was the following thread on rmcr (with Herman and Ahriman whinng as usual...): "Olli Mustonen -- worst Chopin on record!"

    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/-Rni3Sjp8Us

    It seems you have coined this term ;D haha. I will not forget this! What a wonderful term! As beautiful as Euler's formula! Or even more beautiful!

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Tue Nov 15 01:12:35 2022
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Montag, 14. November 2022 um 10:26:47 UTC+1:
    On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 8:34:13 AM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:
    Op 2022-11-11 om 16:52 schreef Marc S:

    People these days are so fucking soft (crying
    about everything)... this is the problem. Not Dan.

    People these days are so fucking arrogant
    (crying about everything)... that is the problem.
    You and the BENEFRALUX gang cry far more
    than anyone else in this newgroup. You also
    contribute nothing of interest to the rest of
    the world.

    dk

    I agree.

    Just for fun I typed in "brainfucked imbecile" in google search and the first entry to come up was the following thread on rmcr (with Herman and Ahriman whining as usual...): "Olli Mustonen -- worst Chopin on record!"

    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/-Rni3Sjp8Us

    It seems you have cointed this term ;D haha. I will not forget this! What a wonderful term! As beautiful as Euler's identity! Or even more beautiful!

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Nov 15 00:45:16 2022
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 11. November 2022 um 16:52:40 UTC+1:
    If I remember correctly (not sure if I would think the same today), Horenstein was also very good in Brahms - I really liked the tragic ouverture... and Brahms 1 (with the LPO?) was also quite nice (3 and 4 were with some not so good orchestras I think?
    ).

    I have to correct myself after listening to a little bit of Horenstein in Brahms again:

    - It has been ages since I listened to his interpretation of Brahms' Tragic Ouverture (and the Tragic Ouverture in general). And saying that "I really liked it" was not well considered, it was rather that I remembered that I liked something about it
    which is why I wanted to check it out again. I think his interpretation works (and is probably the best I listened to), but I just don't really like the piece...

    - Listening to his Brahms Symphony 1 I like his approach more than Klemperer's, but I would prefer Furtwängler and as of yet I prefer Celibidache over Furtwängler.

    I should relisten to some of Horenstein's Beethoven maybe, but I don't think he can compete with Mengelberg here... I remember especially liking Horenstein's Beethoven 8 with l'ONF, along with Fricsay's account of it, but preferring Mengelberg to either
    of them.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 18 12:15:38 2022
    Just to get this out of my head ;D :

    Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully, but
    in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the end
    though... noone really works for me anymore in Brahms (no Klemperer, no Horenstein, no Reiner (besides his hungarian dances!), no Giulini etc).

    In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Nov 18 12:28:01 2022
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
    Just to get this out of my head ;D :

    Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully, but
    in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the end
    though... noone really works for me anymore in Brahms (no Klemperer, no Horenstein, no Reiner (besides his hungarian dances!), no Giulini etc).

    In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.

    Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Nov 19 08:38:10 2022
    On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
    Just to get this out of my head ;D :

    Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
    but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
    end though... noone really works for me anymore in Brahms (no Klemperer, no Horenstein, no Reiner (besides his hungarian dances!), no Giulini etc).

    In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.

    Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.

    Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is
    foolish.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Nov 21 11:12:11 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 19. November 2022 um 17:38:16 UTC+1:
    On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
    Just to get this out of my head ;D :

    Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
    but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
    end though... noone really works for me anymore in Brahms (no Klemperer, no Horenstein, no Reiner (besides his hungarian dances!), no Giulini etc).

    In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.

    Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.

    Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is foolish.

    Bob Harper

    I was also not ranking them against each other as conductors generally but specifically in regards to Brahms. Just to be clear.

    I also worded myself poorly: I would rank FW and likely other conductors as well (if I compared again) above Klemperer. *Just as you do in regards to Brahms 4.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Nov 21 10:43:49 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 19. November 2022 um 17:38:16 UTC+1:
    On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
    Just to get this out of my head ;D :

    Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
    but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
    end though... noone really works for me anymore in Brahms (no Klemperer, no Horenstein, no Reiner (besides his hungarian dances!), no Giulini etc).

    In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.

    Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.

    Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is foolish.

    Bob Harper

    It's also funny how you are contradicting yoruself, since you called F's Brahms 4 "sui generis"... so obviously you must have compared and ranked the "greatness" of the different interpretations of this piece yourself...

    Bob... you and Oscar, at least from what I read politically and your behaviour, you both seemed to be quite normal ;D But really... this ng seems to be full of people that are incapable of reflection...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Nov 21 10:24:30 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 19. November 2022 um 17:38:16 UTC+1:
    On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
    Just to get this out of my head ;D :

    Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
    but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
    end though... noone really works for me anymore in Brahms (no Klemperer, no Horenstein, no Reiner (besides his hungarian dances!), no Giulini etc).

    In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.

    Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.

    Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is foolish.

    Bob Harper

    I believe what you're saying is foolish ;) I am also not doing objective rankings.

    Adorno - De gustibus est disputandum:

    "Even those who are convinced of the incomparability of works of art, find themselves continually entangled in debates where works of art, and precisely those of the highest and for that reason incomparable rank, are compared with and evaluated against
    each other. The objection invariably raised during such considerations, that it is all just a matter of collectors’ instincts, of measuring by ells, usually means only that the good citizens, to whom art can never be irrational enough, wish to keep the
    inner constitution and claim of truth distant from the works. The compulsion of the consideration is however located in the work of art itself. So much is true, that they do not allow themselves to be compared. Rather, they want to annihilate each other.
    It is not for nothing that the ancients [i.e. Greeks] reserved the pantheon of that which is compatible to the gods or to ideas, but required works of art to enter the agon [Greek: contest, conflict, struggle], each one the mortal enemy of the other. ..."

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Nov 21 14:45:29 2022
    On 11/21/22 10:43 AM, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 19. November 2022 um 17:38:16 UTC+1:
    On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
    Just to get this out of my head ;D :

    Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
    but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In the
    end though... noone really works for me anymore in Brahms (no Klemperer, no Horenstein, no Reiner (besides his hungarian dances!), no Giulini etc).

    In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.

    Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.

    Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is
    foolish.

    Bob Harper

    It's also funny how you are contradicting yoruself, since you called F's Brahms 4 "sui generis"... so obviously you must have compared and ranked the "greatness" of the different interpretations of this piece yourself...

    Bob... you and Oscar, at least from what I read politically and your behaviour, you both seemed to be quite normal ;D But really... this ng seems to be full of people that are incapable of reflection...

    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any
    other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
    'greatest', whatever than means. I think you're trying to make this too complicated, at least for me, a simple music lover.

    BTW, I could never make a statement like you did above, that for Brahms
    1, 3, and 4 there is 'only Celibidache.' Have you heard, for example,
    Wand's Chicago Symphony performance of 1? You might be surprised.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Nov 21 21:31:36 2022
    On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:


    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
    'greatest', whatever than means.

    that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Nov 21 22:20:18 2022
    On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:


    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any
    other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
    'greatest', whatever than means.

    that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.

    Exactly.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Nov 21 23:05:52 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 07:20:23 UTC+1:
    On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:


    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any
    other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
    'greatest', whatever than means.

    that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
    Exactly.

    Bob Harper

    Every performance is unlike another... every experience is unlike another... (listening to a record on different days/time => different experience).

    Without a concrete definition of what makes a piece of art "sui generis" for you, it becomes meaningless expression...

    just like the words "man" and "woman"... today in the west Men can be women, and women can be men ;)

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Nov 21 23:03:04 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 21. November 2022 um 23:45:33 UTC+1:
    On 11/21/22 10:43 AM, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Samstag, 19. November 2022 um 17:38:16 UTC+1:
    On 11/18/22 12:28 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 18. November 2022 um 21:15:41 UTC+1:
    Just to get this out of my head ;D :

    Yesterday evening I listened again to a bit of Furtwängler in Beethoven 9 and Brahms 4. And no, I just don't really like him anymore (compared to my early days of cm). He is just too neurotic for me or something... He does some things beautifully,
    but in the end... no... also remembering his Beethoven 3 and 5... no... I sort of feel bad for saying that I liked him more than Klemperer in Brahms, but he does some things better than him... and I think he is more fluid than Klemperer in Brahms. In
    the end though... noone really works for me anymore in Brahms (no Klemperer, no Horenstein, no Reiner (besides his hungarian dances!), no Giulini etc).

    In Brahms 1,3,4 there is only Celibidache for me.

    Thinking about it again though... I don't feel bad at all for saying that... Klemperer is just not good in Brahms... I'd definitely rate FW above him and others as well.

    Ranking comparative 'greatness' between figures like OK, WF et al is
    foolish.

    Bob Harper

    It's also funny how you are contradicting yoruself, since you called F's Brahms 4 "sui generis"... so obviously you must have compared and ranked the "greatness" of the different interpretations of this piece yourself...

    Bob... you and Oscar, at least from what I read politically and your behaviour, you both seemed to be quite normal ;D But really... this ng seems to be full of people that are incapable of reflection...

    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the 'greatest', whatever than means. I think you're trying to make this too complicated, at least for me, a simple music lover.


    By that logic Celibidache's Brahms 4 (and many others, actually every other) is "sui generis" as well, yet you didn't say it about Celibidache's Brahms 4.

    It is obvious that you made that statement in regards to your taste. You seem to "like" F's Brahms 4 more than C's etc.

    The question of this thread was basically "what are some Celibidache recordings you consider special (more recommendable than the rest)?", and you recommended C's Bruckner 4 saying it is "sui generis" as well.

    I specifically said that I am not making "objective rankings". Things are complicated, it is not that I make them complicated ;D

    Do you think Beethoven was like "let's go the easy route"? Surely not... The reason why Beethoven's music is great is because he put thought into it. Beethoven's or Brahms' (wetc) music is "complicated", it begs you to "engage yourself" with it.

    BTW, I could never make a statement like you did above, that for Brahms
    1, 3, and 4 there is 'only Celibidache.' Have you heard, for example,
    Wand's Chicago Symphony performance of 1? You might be surprised.

    Bob Harper

    I think I haven't, and the only thing I seem to recall about Wand is that he is "generic"...

    If you can't make such a statement: Fine. I understand and I am not forcing you to. But you don't seem to (be willing to?) understand me - as I said I don't make objective rankings.

    You are sort of virtue-signalling by saying stuff like "I could never make such statement". How about you try to understand me and see me as a person who can make such statements (for himself).

    I could never submit myself to the will and delusions of the catholic church and the pope (even though I respect much of the Christian culture and history and want to protect that heritage), emancipate yoruself ;)
    Pope fights the climate war... but no word about Iran? A joke. Christianity is weak. Just a well meant advice...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Tue Nov 22 01:51:23 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 07:20:23 UTC+1:
    On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:


    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any >> other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
    'greatest', whatever than means.

    that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
    Exactly.

    Bob Harper

    Tell me Bob, why did you submit yourself to a morally corrupt institution such as the catholic church (I think Luther was morally corrupt as well btw)?

    You have to "think", not just go by your "feeling"...

    In recent history, the catholic church helped Nazis escape Europe and were silent when the Nazis murdered the Jews. The Lutherans (many) even took Luther's antisemitic texts to justify Nazi-Ideology.

    Today the catholic church is silent while the devilish islamic Regime of Iran is murdering and raping innocent people. It's not only silent, the Pope even shook hand with the devil Rouhani... Is the Pope ignorant? Why does he shake hands with fascists?
    Did the Pope not learn from the mistakes of the church during the Holocaust?

    Who is the fool Bob?

    It seems you are...

    I do have a good notion of why you believe in such nonsense... (I probably understand you better in this regard than you understand yourself... because you go by "feelings").

    If you thought rationally about the institution of the catholic church, you would want to break

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Nov 22 09:04:29 2022
    On 11/22/22 1:51 AM, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 07:20:23 UTC+1:
    On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:


    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any >>>> other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
    'greatest', whatever than means.

    that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
    Exactly.

    Bob Harper

    Tell me Bob, why did you submit yourself to a morally corrupt institution such as the catholic church (I think Luther was morally corrupt as well btw)?

    You have to "think", not just go by your "feeling"...

    In recent history, the catholic church helped Nazis escape Europe and were silent when the Nazis murdered the Jews. The Lutherans (many) even took Luther's antisemitic texts to justify Nazi-Ideology.

    Today the catholic church is silent while the devilish islamic Regime of Iran is murdering and raping innocent people. It's not only silent, the Pope even shook hand with the devil Rouhani... Is the Pope ignorant? Why does he shake hands with fascists?
    Did the Pope not learn from the mistakes of the church during the Holocaust?

    Who is the fool Bob?

    It seems you are...

    I do have a good notion of why you believe in such nonsense... (I probably understand you better in this regard than you understand yourself... because you go by "feelings").

    If you thought rationally about the institution of the catholic church, you would want to break

    Marc, you begin to remind me of Michael Schaffer (look him up in the
    archives), with whom I had many interactions a number of years ago. You
    haven't yet become as nasty as he, but you are getting there now that
    you have begun attacking the Church--mostly out of ignorance, it would
    seem. You are also attacking me personally, but that's secondary, if unpleasant.

    Henceforth I will not respond to anything you have to say, unless in my judgment it is solely about music and free animus and snobbery. I will
    be the sole judge of those qualities. I wish you well in the rest of
    your endeavors.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Nov 22 11:02:46 2022
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 19:58:59 UTC+1:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 18:04:34 UTC+1:
    On 11/22/22 1:51 AM, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 07:20:23 UTC+1:
    On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote: >>>>

    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any
    other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the >>>> 'greatest', whatever than means.

    that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
    Exactly.

    Bob Harper

    Tell me Bob, why did you submit yourself to a morally corrupt institution such as the catholic church (I think Luther was morally corrupt as well btw)?

    You have to "think", not just go by your "feeling"...

    In recent history, the catholic church helped Nazis escape Europe and were silent when the Nazis murdered the Jews. The Lutherans (many) even took Luther's antisemitic texts to justify Nazi-Ideology.

    Today the catholic church is silent while the devilish islamic Regime of Iran is murdering and raping innocent people. It's not only silent, the Pope even shook hand with the devil Rouhani... Is the Pope ignorant? Why does he shake hands with
    fascists? Did the Pope not learn from the mistakes of the church during the Holocaust?

    Who is the fool Bob?

    It seems you are...

    I do have a good notion of why you believe in such nonsense... (I probably understand you better in this regard than you understand yourself... because you go by "feelings").

    If you thought rationally about the institution of the catholic church, you would want to break
    Marc, you begin to remind me of Michael Schaffer (look him up in the archives), with whom I had many interactions a number of years ago. You haven't yet become as nasty as he, but you are getting there now that
    you have begun attacking the Church--mostly out of ignorance, it would seem. You are also attacking me personally, but that's secondary, if unpleasant.

    Henceforth I will not respond to anything you have to say, unless in my judgment it is solely about music and free animus and snobbery. I will
    be the sole judge of those qualities. I wish you well in the rest of
    your endeavors.

    Bob Harper
    ;D are your feelings hurt? You attacked me personally by calling my behaviour foolish without giving any concrete argument.

    When I respond in an appropriate manner calling you out on your foolishness you go crying... oh, well...

    You believe in the church because of ignorance. My criticism is valid you brainwashed idiot.

    Just want to add what Pope Francis had to say about the Vatican Archives from the Nazi-Era:

    In an August 2019 La Stampa interview, Francis said: "I am worried because you hear speeches that resemble those by Hitler in 1934."

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Tue Nov 22 10:58:56 2022
    Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 18:04:34 UTC+1:
    On 11/22/22 1:51 AM, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Dienstag, 22. November 2022 um 07:20:23 UTC+1:
    On 11/21/22 9:31 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 11:45:33 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote: >>>>

    A distinction: I called F's Br 4 'sui generis' because it is unlike any >>>> other, not because it can somehow be proved to be objectively the
    'greatest', whatever than means.

    that is indeed what 'sui generis' means. Unlike any other. It's own category.
    Exactly.

    Bob Harper

    Tell me Bob, why did you submit yourself to a morally corrupt institution such as the catholic church (I think Luther was morally corrupt as well btw)?

    You have to "think", not just go by your "feeling"...

    In recent history, the catholic church helped Nazis escape Europe and were silent when the Nazis murdered the Jews. The Lutherans (many) even took Luther's antisemitic texts to justify Nazi-Ideology.

    Today the catholic church is silent while the devilish islamic Regime of Iran is murdering and raping innocent people. It's not only silent, the Pope even shook hand with the devil Rouhani... Is the Pope ignorant? Why does he shake hands with
    fascists? Did the Pope not learn from the mistakes of the church during the Holocaust?

    Who is the fool Bob?

    It seems you are...

    I do have a good notion of why you believe in such nonsense... (I probably understand you better in this regard than you understand yourself... because you go by "feelings").

    If you thought rationally about the institution of the catholic church, you would want to break
    Marc, you begin to remind me of Michael Schaffer (look him up in the archives), with whom I had many interactions a number of years ago. You haven't yet become as nasty as he, but you are getting there now that
    you have begun attacking the Church--mostly out of ignorance, it would
    seem. You are also attacking me personally, but that's secondary, if unpleasant.

    Henceforth I will not respond to anything you have to say, unless in my judgment it is solely about music and free animus and snobbery. I will
    be the sole judge of those qualities. I wish you well in the rest of
    your endeavors.

    Bob Harper

    ;D are your feelings hurt? You attacked me personally by calling my behaviour foolish without giving any concrete argument.

    When I respond in an appropriate manner calling you out on your foolishness you go crying... oh, well...

    You believe in the church because of ignorance. My criticism is valid you brainwashed idiot.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 2 17:28:58 2023
    excuse my thought of consciousness writing-style, I really tried to take care when writing it, probably could have worded myself better in some cases, but I really didn't want to bother rereading to check....

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 2 17:26:46 2023
    Just to get this off my chest, it's a bit late, but it's been bugging me. I deleted the posts already, but what I said about Klemperer's was untrue (my expressed thoughts were untrue - "That I would recommend Klemperer's Brahms 1" for example, like I can'
    t believe i said this without thinking a bit more for a moment).

    There was actually never a time I truly liked Klemperer's Brahms, and when recommending him I totally forgot about Reiner's and Horenstein's and Furtwängler's Brahms (the latter which I think I mentioned later in the thread) and my head was probably a
    bit full of Klemperer (because of Don Giovanni and Die Zauberflöte) and I thought it's probably alright - it had been a while since I've listened to his Brahms though... And I didn't remember things clearly... but when listenend again I was actually
    horrified... And I remembered how bad I thought he was with Brahms. I also remembered comparing Klemperer's Brahms 4 with Celibidache's (when Dan brought Celi's Brahms to my attention about 1,5 years ago here) and wanting to like Klemperer so much, but
    in the end thinking - wtf is this.).

    I've listened to Günter Wand in 1 and 4 btw - horrible. Celibidache is still my favorite wrt to the Brahms symphonies. After Celibidache l'd probably recommend Reiner, Horenstein and Furtwängler (who I actually don't like (anymore) in any other piece I
    heard). But I really don't like Brahms's Symphonies, never did, like it was always a back and forth with me, some things are interesting ofc but in the end no thanks (I guess I only really like Beethoven symphonies - meaning all 4 movements from
    beginning to end)... and actually it was Celibidache that made me engage continously with the symphonies of Brahms and made them grow on me. But in symphonies I like Mahler more (but I have my problems with him... like... the start of the 1st symphony
    let's me hope for so much more than what is coming afterwards - 3rd movement is very beautiful though, and the beginning ofc... anyway not here to talk about Mahler's symphonies). There really aren't too many pieces that I _really_ like from beginning to
    end... only Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms achieved this... and I can't listen to anyone else anymore tbh... Chopin, Wagner, Liszt, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner etc etc... omg... all horrible (besides some nice moments ofc). I'm still interested in
    Schubert, Schoenberg and Webern (and Berg to a lesser degree, maybe he will grow), still "looking for things" in their music... of the classical music I heard after 1950s... omg... everything horrible as well... and all the "electronic music" so fucking
    horrible (and I liked it when I was younger)... I always thought Art Tatum and Jazz was horrible as well (although I wanted to like Art so much ;D)...

    WRT to Klemperer and Don Giovanni and Zauberflöte which I've both loved for quite a while now I had an epiphany... they suck... but so do most others... (Fricsay in Zauberflöte is my favorite and Sawallisch is good but not great, but I think better
    than the rest I heard; Mitropoulos and Fricsay in DG are both my favorites, haven't decided yet which I like more, I lean towards Mitropoulos... I like it a bit more dark, and ya, while I can understand certain criticism of the singers in Fricsay - say
    DFD being a "brighter" DG - it doesn't bother me, it's a more lighthearted take. Much better than all the others I heard, 2x Giulini, 2x Karajan - both wirh Ghiaruov - 2x Klemperer etc etc) -- and I don't like Klemperer at all anymore (and I had this
    feeling for quite a while, but the singing is just so beautiful in the mentioned recs (or so I thought for long, I mean some singers are really nice), and he was the first conductor I really liked in Mozart Symphonies - I hated him accompanying the piano
    in Mozart, Gran Partita etc. - and I've always loved his Beethoven 9th slow movement etc.)... I can't listen to Klemperer anymore... not in Mahler, not in Mozart and not in others, I never liked him too much I think... anyway... it's late.

    happy new year my dear friends - thanks for hearing my confession...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Jan 11 14:48:40 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm

    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 11 14:43:39 2023
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 17 13:33:02 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though

    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Jan 19 14:07:01 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...

    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I will also
    find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really beautiful
    bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Jan 19 15:30:06 2023
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I will
    also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
    beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.

    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Jan 19 22:06:49 2023
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
    will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
    beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more. Might
    be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I heard
    from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.

    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Jan 19 21:48:50 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I will
    also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
    beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html

    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more. Might be
    the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte recordings
    just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I heard from
    him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Jan 19 23:48:20 2023
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
    will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
    beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.

    But yes, she might be the best queen I heard, alongside Berger... Hallstein's singing might be impressive, but I don't know, somehow it's a bit flat, and Lucia Popp doesn't feel right to me either...

    What Berger said to Streich about singing the Queen may be of interest:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Dxo6AQAAIAAJ&q=berger+%22queen+of+the+night+is+a+fighter%22&dq=berger+%22queen+of+the+night+is+a+fighter%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj93OiF1NX8AhXeJUQIHVnWCn8Q6AF6BAgHEAI

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Jan 19 23:45:33 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
    will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
    beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more. Might
    be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I heard
    from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.

    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.

    But yes, she might be the best queen I heard, alongside Berger... Hallstein's singing might be impressive, but I don't know, somehow it's a bit flat, and Lucia Popp doesn't feel right to me either...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Jan 20 00:22:14 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 08:48:23 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume
    I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some
    really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.

    But yes, she might be the best queen I heard, alongside Berger... Hallstein's singing might be impressive, but I don't know, somehow it's a bit flat, and Lucia Popp doesn't feel right to me either...
    What Berger said to Streich about singing the Queen may be of interest:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Dxo6AQAAIAAJ&q=berger+%22queen+of+the+night+is+a+fighter%22&dq=berger+%22queen+of+the+night+is+a+fighter%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj93OiF1NX8AhXeJUQIHVnWCn8Q6AF6BAgHEAI

    Thanks, it sounds reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it ("queen of the night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of singing" - I guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to mention Rita Streich... also one of my favorite
    Queens. I am also not so fond of Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)

    I would really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out my favorite.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Jan 20 07:58:32 2023
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
    will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
    beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.

    Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?

    Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Jan 20 10:55:58 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 16:58:36 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume
    I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some
    really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
    Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?


    It's been ages since I listened to the Szell (wasn't paying too much attention to singers' names then), and I remember not listening to much of it, as I didn't like it. I don't like Szell anywhere actually.

    Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.

    I think I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it, also around minute 4:14 she makes a weird sound or sth? But thank you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Jan 20 17:49:16 2023
    On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:56:01 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 16:58:36 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
    assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
    Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?

    It's been ages since I listened to the Szell (wasn't paying too much attention to singers' names then), and I remember not listening to much of it, as I didn't like it. I don't like Szell anywhere actually.
    Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.
    I think I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it, also around minute 4:14 she makes a weird sound or sth? But thank you.

    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Jan 20 20:58:24 2023
    On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:56:01 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 16:58:36 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
    assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
    Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?

    It's been ages since I listened to the Szell (wasn't paying too much attention to singers' names then), and I remember not listening to much of it, as I didn't like it. I don't like Szell anywhere actually.
    Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.
    I think I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it, also around minute 4:14 she makes a weird sound or sth? But thank you.

    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Jan 20 22:21:32 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:56:01 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 16:58:36 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
    assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
    more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberfl
    te recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff
    I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording.
    Isn't there a live recording of that opera with Koth conducted by Szell?

    It's been ages since I listened to the Szell (wasn't paying too much attention to singers' names then), and I remember not listening to much of it, as I didn't like it. I don't like Szell anywhere actually.
    Also, if you would like to hear more Koth in Mozart, Youtube has a live performance to her singing the concert aria MA CHE VI FECE O STELLE....SPERAI VICINO IL LIDO.
    I think I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it, also around minute 4:14 she makes a weird sound or sth? But thank you.
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?

    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I heard,
    she seems to succeed in both).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Jan 21 00:48:20 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
    heard, she seems to succeed in both).

    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
    happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Jan 21 00:53:46 2023
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
    heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
    happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.

    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Sat Jan 21 01:02:35 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
    heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
    happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"

    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Jan 21 01:27:25 2023
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what
    I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
    happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D

    (Y. upload):

    "Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Jan 21 01:19:04 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 10:02:38 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what
    I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
    happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D

    I should probably also check out Beecham's Serail (as Randy suggested a few months ago).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Sat Jan 21 01:33:08 2023
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from
    what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing
    ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
    (Y. upload):

    "Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"

    (Y. upload):

    "Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Sat Jan 21 02:52:06 2023
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from
    what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing
    ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
    (Y. upload):

    "Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"
    (Y. upload):

    "Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"

    Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Sat Jan 21 04:25:26 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 11:52:08 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as
    from what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing
    ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
    (Y. upload):

    "Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"
    (Y. upload):

    Horrible - Walter was a horrible conductor.


    "Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"

    Transfer too bad, and from what I could perceive, another horrible conductor (maybe he is good in "Mefistofele", I think that's where I know his name from, but I haven't listened to it in a long time, and I'm also not really interested in Mefistofele)

    Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?

    No, it's always both. If the conductor sucks, singers won't rescue it, same the other way around.

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Jan 21 11:52:01 2023
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:



    Thanks, it sounds reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it ("queen of the night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of
    singing" - I guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to
    mention Rita Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not
    so fond of Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)

    I would really have to compare Streich, Berger and Kth to figure out
    my favorite.

    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a spin.

    -Owen

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Jan 21 21:10:38 2023
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
    heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
    happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.

    (Y. upload):

    "1839 : Musicians KILLING Mozart's Music by SPEED and VIRTUOSITY (1/2)"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Sat Jan 21 21:29:40 2023
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:10:41 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what I
    heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
    happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    (Y. upload):

    "1839 : Musicians KILLING Mozart's Music by SPEED and VIRTUOSITY (1/2)"

    (Y. upload):

    "In what Tempo Mozart conducted Don Giovanni in 1787? Mystery or not?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Sat Jan 21 22:59:33 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:



    Thanks, it sounds reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it ("queen of the night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of singing" - I guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to
    mention Rita Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not
    so fond of Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)

    I would really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out
    my favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a spin.

    -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches, then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it
    problematic, because it's a comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    Over the top is fine, but this is just in bad taste (can't speak about the singing, as I didn't get to those parts, but I also don't intend to, because, for me, there is nothing special and nothing magical about this production (conducting is not special,
    setting is bad etc)

    Thanks for mentioning it - it certainly brought me fun watching the ouverture-clip.

    The music is "not bad", but I would definitely choose Sawallisch's production (which ofc is something else entirely) over Brannagh's.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 22 14:24:26 2023
    Quick thoughts as usual:

    Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness scene).
    Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).

    So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Jan 22 18:09:11 2023
    On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Quick thoughts as usual:

    Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness scene).
    Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).

    So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.

    To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and
    says more about your taste and self importance than about that great
    recording. YMMV, of course.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Jan 23 00:04:14 2023
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
    On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Quick thoughts as usual:

    Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness scene).
    Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).

    So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.
    To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.

    Bob Harper

    Oh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.

    What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings available to
    make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it.

    You don't come with arguments to support your pov (while I actually addressed things - albeit poorly - I find wrong with Kleiber's Nozze: not really accentuated compared to for example Fricsay), but you just attack my person (self-important, no taste etc)
    - argumentum ad hominem by a "Christian"...

    Wouldn't you think that the Pope is much more worthy of being accused of thinking too highly of himself? Ofc not ;)

    Tell me Bob, what does "self-importance" have to do with me saying that I think Kleiber's Nozze is smoothened out, and that he has no real sense of phrasing in Mozart (Not always ofc, but I acknowledged that not everything is bad); could it be simply,
    that I ruffled your feathers by criticising something you hold dearly to your heart?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 00:41:24 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 09:34:37 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
    On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Quick thoughts as usual:

    Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness
    scene). Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).

    So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.
    To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.

    Bob Harper
    Oh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.

    What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings
    available to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...

    Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 00:34:34 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
    On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Quick thoughts as usual:

    Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness scene).
    Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).

    So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.
    To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.

    Bob Harper
    Oh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.

    What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings available
    to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...

    Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 00:42:34 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 09:34:37 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
    On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Quick thoughts as usual:

    Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness
    scene). Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).

    So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.
    To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.

    Bob Harper
    Oh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.

    What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings
    available to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...

    Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?

    No, I haven't I will look into it. I also have to look into Jochum's Zauberflöte.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 01:17:15 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 09:42:36 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 09:34:37 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
    On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Quick thoughts as usual:

    Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness
    scene). Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).

    So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.
    To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and
    says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.

    Bob Harper
    Oh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.

    What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings
    available to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...

    Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?
    No, I haven't I will look into it. I also have to look into Jochum's Zauberflöte.

    Just listened a bit to Suitner's Nozze (sung in German), certainly Kleiber is way better. From what I heard Suitner's Nozze is a bit like Sawallisch's Zauberflöte, it's okay, but there is something missing (some spice or something).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 13:51:30 2023
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Kth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    I don't think that WWI has any particular reverence due to it being
    unfunny, but, all this is a matter of taste.

    However, you missed the best part! The singing! Not the best singing
    there ever was (which you seem to be looking for), but well sung and
    enjoyable.

    -Owen

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Mon Jan 23 11:48:52 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds >> reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic> >> Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".


    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. But just because other people do something , it does not make it right. Your argument does not make sense.

    I don't think that WWI has any particular reverence due to it being
    unfunny, but, all this is a matter of taste.


    I was not talking about WW1 in particular, but about real wars in general as a setting for Zauberflöte. You completely missed my point.

    I can't watch a comic opera that is set to events in which people died horrifically. Very simple actually. I find it sort of crazy that you seem to have absolutely no issues with this, and don't even understand where I'm coming from.

    However, you missed the best part! The singing! Not the best singing
    there ever was (which you seem to be looking for), but well sung and enjoyable.

    -Owen

    I don't think you understand what I am looking for. But thank you for your recommendation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 12:53:51 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds >> reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the >> night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita >> Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of >> Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would >> really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's> >> in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic> >> Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches, then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 13:07:36 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:34:37 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 12:04:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 03:09:16 UTC+1:
    On 1/22/23 2:24 PM, Marc S wrote:
    Quick thoughts as usual:

    Been listening a bit to Kleiber's Nozze again, and it's as I remembered, quite dull. Kleiber is not a good Mozart conductor (have similar memories of 36, 39, 40). Beautiful singing, except for Poell (just listen how he spoils the forgiveness
    scene). Kleiber here (might be a bit different from his symphonies) has no sense of phrasing, and so much is smoothened out. Ofc not everything is bad, but hmmm... never understood its appeal (well except for the singing).

    So it will come down to either Fricsay or Busch - decision open.
    To hold that opinion of Erich Kleiber's Figaro is simply silly, IMO, and says more about your taste and self importance than about that great recording. YMMV, of course.

    Bob Harper
    Oh how I guessed that this one would ruffle your feathers... (I remember reading that you would choose this as a desert island disc - Hilde Gueden ;) ), I really expected you to answer here, haha.

    What does anything here have to do with self-importance? It is quite the opposite. The object of importance for me is Mozart's Nozze, and I am looking for a recording that I like the most. And I will look rigoursly through all the recordings
    available to make my decision. Now to be more "differentiated": I would say that Kleiber's Nozze is my 3rd favorite recording of it...

    Have you heard Suitner's NOZZE...?

    And what about Panizza's 1940 MET broadcasts?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 14:14:56 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I >> guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita >> Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would >> really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my >> favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the> >> singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's> >> in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches, then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and, to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?

    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really critical
    to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_ themselves by
    watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking place just at
    that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 14:24:33 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I >> guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a >> spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches, then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and, to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)

    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 14:28:42 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a >> spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s

    And what about a war movie that provides a woman's perspective of war?

    Ever heard of GONE WITH THE WIND?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 14:37:55 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 23:24:36 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a >> spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s

    You need a movie to remind you of a simple phrase? Every kid knows that corrupt leaders destroy our humanity; I bet you even the Nazis would have told you this, about "corrupt capitalist Jews" in the USA destroying humanity. But to know what is really
    wrong with this world, one has to look a little further than the makers of "Paths of Glory" did.

    Every god damn country on this earth produces anti-war movies since the beginning of the movie industry, and yet we still have war... so, how actually did Paths of Glory and all the other war movies help teach people about "How corrupt Leaders Destroy
    Our Humanity"?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 14:40:44 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 23:37:58 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 23:24:36 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    You need a movie to remind you of a simple phrase? Every kid knows that corrupt leaders destroy our humanity; I bet you even the Nazis would have told you this, about "corrupt capitalist Jews" in the USA destroying humanity. But to know what is really
    wrong with this world, one has to look a little further than the makers of "Paths of Glory" did.

    Every god damn country on this earth produces anti-war movies since the beginning of the movie industry, and yet we still have war... so, how actually did Paths of Glory and all the other war movies help teach people about "How corrupt Leaders Destroy
    Our Humanity"?

    And is it only the leaders that destroy humanity? Or sometimes also very ordinary people? And why is that so? Etc etc. You do not think enough.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 14:38:50 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 23:28:45 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about a war movie that provides a woman's perspective of war?

    Ever heard of GONE WITH THE WIND?

    If I did, it was probably gone with the wind.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 17:05:32 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes

    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 16:55:28 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:14:59 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a >> spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s

    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 17:57:58 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:55:15 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
    https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/

    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-news/netflix-trailer-all-quiet-on-the-western-front-1234615372/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 18:06:30 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 6:02:37 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:55:15 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't
    really critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _
    enjoy_ themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one
    taking place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
    https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/
    https://movieweb.com/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-required-viewing/

    Timeless message:

    https://collider.com/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-1930-original-movie-controversy-explained/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 17:55:12 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?

    https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 18:02:34 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:55:15 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
    https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/

    https://movieweb.com/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-required-viewing/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 18:09:19 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 6:02:37 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:55:15 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't
    really critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _
    enjoy_ themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one
    taking place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
    https://time.com/6227166/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-is-a-warning-to-the-world/
    https://movieweb.com/all-quiet-on-the-western-front-required-viewing/

    Timeless message:

    https://www.gazettenet.com/Gazette-columnist-Paradis-48751352

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 21:29:41 2023
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:45 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:

    Ever heard of GONE WITH THE WIND?

    A horrible book!

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 23 22:10:02 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 02:05:34 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes," McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?

    Obviously you didn't understand my point. Again coming up with an argument that proves nothing. How about trying to address the points I made? Learn to think...

    It might be that these type of movies might have relevance for some people (just as you), but that doesn't make them to be "meaningful" in any way. (Britney spears is also still relevant in some way today, that doesn't prove anything)

    Why do you think Netflix produced this movie? Because they want to teach you how bad wars are? The primary aspect is obviously profit. This is the reality.

    The movie industry today just rehashes old classics. It doesn't have anything "new" to say.

    The war movies that are being produced are just simply a variation on the same theme... the theme being: war = bad. Now did we learn anything new? No we didn't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 23 22:54:44 2023
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 17:10:04 UTC+11, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 02:05:34 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't really
    critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _enjoy_
    themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one taking
    place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
    Obviously you didn't understand my point. Again coming up with an argument that proves nothing. How about trying to address the points I made? Learn to think...

    It might be that these type of movies might have relevance for some people (just as you), but that doesn't make them to be "meaningful" in any way. (Britney spears is also still relevant in some way today, that doesn't prove anything)

    Why do you think Netflix produced this movie? Because they want to teach you how bad wars are? The primary aspect is obviously profit. This is the reality.

    The movie industry today just rehashes old classics. It doesn't have anything "new" to say.

    The war movies that are being produced are just simply a variation on the same theme... the theme being: war = bad. Now did we learn anything new? No we didn't.

    I don't watch films to necessarily learn anything. If anything the world of film reinforces our place in the world through the interaction of human beings to each other. No more or less. If I want to learn, I'll watch Susskind or Penrose on YouTube or
    from their very excellent books.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Mon Jan 23 23:39:03 2023
    raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 07:54:46 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 17:10:04 UTC+11, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 02:05:34 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 4:55:30 PM UTC-8,schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 21:53:54 UTC+1:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 11:48:55 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 23. Januar 2023 um 19:51:39 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-22 06:59:33 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 17:52:09 UTC+1:
    On 2023-01-20 08:22:14 +0000, Marc S said:>> >>> >> > Thanks, it sounds
    reasonable, but this is not a special insight, is it> > ("queen of the
    night is a fighter", "color the voice is the art of> > singing" - I
    guess 99% would agree?)? But yes, I totally forgot to> > mention Rita
    Streich... also one of my favorite Queens. I am also not> > so fond of
    Moser btw (but better than Popp and Hallstein probably)> >> > I would
    really have to compare Streich, Berger and Köth to figure out> > my
    favorite.
    I'm going to be criticised for "slumming," but I really enjoyed the>
    singing in Kenneth Branaugh's DVD "The Magic Flute" movie. Yes, it's>
    in English, and the adaptation into WWI is over the top, but the Magic>
    Flute itself is over the top. If you like fine singing, give it a
    spin.>> -Owen

    Just watched the Ouverture-Clip on youtube, hahaha. The staging is not
    to my liking, but god damn it, it was so funny - first the trenches,
    then the big cannons and then the airforce; War!

    The cintematography was quite interesting to follow (but nothing special).

    The setting ofc can be criticised heavily. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad
    if one just chose not to present a specific war (WW1), but just some
    fantastic war in an alternate universe or something; the fact that
    Brannagh uses WW1 as a setting makes it problematic, because it's a
    comic opera, but the war was not funny at all; with this in the back of
    my mind, I can't enjoy it.

    There's nothing unusual on using a war as a setting for comedy, look at
    Jack Benny's "To be or not to be," the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup", and,
    to get really to the bottom level for comedy, "Hogan's Heroes,"
    McHale's Navy".

    There is also Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. ..

    And what about MASH?
    Never seen it, although I know about it. It's ofc something different, just as all the movies Owen and I mentioned are different from each other; or that a movie is something different than a setting of an opera.

    Thing is I can't really watch war movies anymore, for me it seems wrong to consume this type of movies. If one wants to argue that war movies could be critical, well, we all know war is bad and yet they still happen; so war movies aren't
    really critical to begin with, they don't "teach" us anything new, give us any new insights, in the end it's more or less just about consumption. And maybe war movies are also sort of normalizing/rather naturalizing real war (that people these days _
    enjoy_ themselves by watching war movies is quite absurd. Think about it this way: People die in real wars each day; yet other people come home from work, sit on their couches and enjoy themselves by watching a movie about a real war - maybe even one
    taking place just at that time - eating popcorn and drinking beer. It's a bit macabre, dont you think?)
    What about war movies that remind us of "How Corrupt Leaders Destroy Our Humanity"?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqqnFx41QOw&t=9s
    And what about movies that are based on novels that have relevant themes?:

    https://www.litcharts.com/lit/all-quiet-on-the-western-front/themes
    Isn't the reason that NETFLIX last year came out with their own film adaptation of that novel because the themes of the novel haven't lost their relevance over time?
    Obviously you didn't understand my point. Again coming up with an argument that proves nothing. How about trying to address the points I made? Learn to think...

    It might be that these type of movies might have relevance for some people (just as you), but that doesn't make them to be "meaningful" in any way. (Britney spears is also still relevant in some way today, that doesn't prove anything)

    Why do you think Netflix produced this movie? Because they want to teach you how bad wars are? The primary aspect is obviously profit. This is the reality.

    The movie industry today just rehashes old classics. It doesn't have anything "new" to say.

    The war movies that are being produced are just simply a variation on the same theme... the theme being: war = bad. Now did we learn anything new? No we didn't.
    I don't watch films to necessarily learn anything.

    See, you are just proving my point: watching movies is all about "consumption". You don't want to learn anything, or "think" deeply about movies (because that is something you obviously can't do anyway), you just want to be enjoyed in whatever way.

    If anything the world of film reinforces our place in the world through the interaction of human beings to each other.

    Nonsense ofc. What the fuck does this even mean. When people watch films in theatres or at home, they usually just mindlessly stare at a screen instead of interacting with each other.

    No more or less. If I want to learn, I'll watch Susskind or Penrose on YouTube or from their very excellent books.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Your pov reminds me of this scene in Wall-E: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-kdRdzxdZQ - you just like to be comforted; to ask you to think would be too much.

    as well as what Nietzsche said about the "last man" in "Thus Spoke Zarathustra":

    "There comes the time of the most despicable man, who can no longer despise himself.

    Lo! I show you the Last Man.

    "What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?" -- so asks the Last Man, and blinks.

    The earth has become small, and on it hops the Last Man, who makes everything small. His species is ineradicable as the flea; the Last Man lives longest.

    "We have discovered happiness" -- say the Last Men, and they blink.

    They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they need warmth. One still loves one's neighbor and rubs against him; for one needs warmth.

    Turning ill and being distrustful, they consider sinful: they walk warily. He is a fool who still stumbles over stones or men!

    A little poison now and then: that makes for pleasant dreams. And much poison at the end for a pleasant death.

    One still works, for work is a pastime. But one is careful lest the pastime should hurt one.

    One no longer becomes poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wants to rule? Who still wants to obey? Both are too burdensome.

    No shepherd, and one herd! Everyone wants the same; everyone is the same: he who feels differently goes voluntarily into the madhouse.

    "Formerly all the world was insane," -- say the subtlest of them, and they blink.

    They are clever and know all that has happened: so there is no end to their derision. People still quarrel, but are soon reconciled -- otherwise it upsets their stomachs.

    They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health.

    "We have discovered happiness," -- say the Last Men, and they blink."

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 23 23:47:30 2023
    You are really the most hateful person ever to grace RMCR.
    No matter how people respond (if they're naive enough to do so), you will invariably tell them they're stupid and cannot think.
    But of course you're not a narcissist. You said so yourself.
    Ironically there are a thousand posts of yours to show that thinking isn't your forte either, not to mention all those deleted posts in which you said some recording was the greatest ever until you realized, one minute into said recording, it was not.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Jan 23 23:59:07 2023
    Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 08:47:32 UTC+1:
    You are really the most hateful person ever to grace RMCR.

    Go cry.

    No matter how people respond (if they're naive enough to do so), you will invariably tell them they're stupid and cannot think.

    Are you talking about yourself? Aren't you the "naive" person responding to me all the time? Probably more so than anyone else on this ng.

    But of course you're not a narcissist. You said so yourself.

    Keep projecting your narcissism on others.

    Ironically there are a thousand posts of yours to show that thinking isn't your forte either, not to mention all those deleted posts in which you said some recording was the greatest ever until you realized, one minute into said recording, it was not.

    Whatever.

    I ofc change my mind the more I learn, which is why I reevaluted (as I explained in this thread) my position on some recordings (and I might do so in the future as well). This is a very reasonable stance. You ofc have trouble changing your mind, because
    you refuse to learn.

    I always delete my posts as I explained already, not because I might have changed my mind, but because I don't like to leave a lot of information about me on the net.

    Isn't it you that deleted his post about "anti-vaxxers" being a "deathcult" in the covid thread? You were completely brainwashed as well wrt to covid - similar to how Dan still is. Show some insights into your mistakes and take responsibility.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 24 04:22:28 2023
    Op dinsdag 24 januari 2023 om 06:29:44 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
    On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 2:28:45 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:

    Ever heard of GONE WITH THE WIND?
    A horrible book!

    Unreadable nonsense.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 24 12:25:53 2023
    WRT Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more yesterday evening): Too thick and too driven for me. And his Serail I don't like nearly as much as Fricsay's.

    In the end when it comes to Zauberflöte, for me there is only Fricsay (and in parts maybe Klemperer), I guess. With Fricsay's Serail I have no issues, but his Zauberflöte... I wish he just did some things a bit more like Klemperer (slower), or
    Klemperer like him (leaner).

    As beautiful Sawallisch's Zauberflöte or Krips' DG are, I just feel there is something missing, it just doesn't grab me as much as others... and it seems some details aren't as pronounced as well ("carving out musical figures").

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Jan 25 00:46:40 2023
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:29:42 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:10:41 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as from what
    I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing ever
    happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    (Y. upload):

    "1839 : Musicians KILLING Mozart's Music by SPEED and VIRTUOSITY (1/2)"
    (Y. upload):

    "In what Tempo Mozart conducted Don Giovanni in 1787? Mystery or not?"

    (Y. upload):

    "HOW TO FIND (YOUR) RIGHT TEMPO FOR MOZART'S MUSIC?"

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Jan 26 22:22:51 2023
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume I
    will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some really
    beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Jan 27 03:34:11 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I assume
    I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are some
    really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss

    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether to
    look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Jan 27 11:35:46 2023
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
    assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit more.
    Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberflöte
    recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff I
    heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether to
    look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.

    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Jan 27 12:05:20 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
    assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
    more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberfl
    te recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other stuff
    I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether
    to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/

    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
    conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..
    I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they were
    as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least something
    is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his Mozart
    is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Jan 27 12:11:19 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 21:05:23 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
    assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
    more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberfl
    te recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
    stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether
    to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
    conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..
    I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they were
    as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least something
    is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    *rolls


    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his Mozart
    is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Jan 27 13:52:51 2023
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but I
    assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
    more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberfl
    te recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
    stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure whether
    to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
    conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..
    I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they were
    as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least something
    is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his Mozart
    is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.

    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 27 14:16:17 2023
    Having just listened to a bit of Fricsay's DG again, I have to say it's among the best, and I seem to have been wrong about the orchestra being too low in sound - it at least sounded to me that way in the upload of the vinyl release on yt; just listened
    to another upload on yt, and I have no issues as from what I heard. Problem is Sena Jurinac in parts, I guess. And also Irmgard Seefried. Likely Hilde Gueden (since we were speaking of her) would have been better in either role. With the rest of the cast
    I actually have no problems with.

    Best DGs imo, and I think I need all 3, can't decide for 1 are: Busch, Fricsay and Klemperer.
    Best Zauberflöte: Fricsay, Klemperer
    Best Nozze: Fricsay, Busch
    Best: Serail: Fricsay

    Thinking about it, I will have to listen to Busch again as well, to decide whether I really need him, but I remember him to be really good and I'll problably need him. And after that I guess I am more or less sure about my favorite recordings for the
    mentioned pieces.

    WRT Kleiber and Nozze and Mozart: Just listened to parts again as well, I think he is really not a good Mozart conductor. Will have to listen to his Beethoven again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Jan 27 14:27:26 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but
    I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
    more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberfl
    te recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
    stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
    conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..
    I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they were
    as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
    Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE

    I don't know much about this opera, probably dipped into it once. Not a big fan of Strauss.

    So, as I get, Zerbinetta is like _the_ part of the opera, and Gueden stole it from Streich, even though Streich already had 2 studio recordings of that part? I am not saying that Gueden has a bad voice, I just think, that I like Köth's voice more for
    Mozart, and very likely also Streich's (although I'd have to compare again to be confident to say this). Otoh maybe I'd like Gueden more in Strauss.

    And as I said in the other post about Fricsay's DG, Gueden over Seefried or Jurinac any day.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 28 13:14:34 2023
    WRT Fricsay's DG, I have to revise myself again: I was right, in parts the volume of the orchestra is too low compared to the voices, at least imo. I also just can't get into Seefried and Jurinac at all.

    So my favorite DGs: Busch and Klemperer; I should maybe listen to Giulini again... and then I'm probably done... a lot of back and forth, but ya, I always come back to Klemperer; and this time (reevaluation of the pieces) I also found a new fav recording
    (Busch's).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Sun Jan 29 08:57:34 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950, but
    I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there are
    some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a bit
    more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most Zauberfl
    te recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
    stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
    conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..
    I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they were
    as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
    Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE

    Who would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Jan 29 09:42:51 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 18:27:59 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 17:57:36 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
    but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
    are some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
    bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most
    Zauberflöte recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
    other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
    the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about
    it.. I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they
    were as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
    Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
    Who would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
    Thinking about it, I really liked Streich... She might be my favorite, alongside Mirella Freni in Klemperer's recording. Maybe I was wrong about Mitropoulos, it's actually a very enjoyable production, even though some parts just feel too fast. Would
    have to listen to Mildmay, the Zerlina on Busch's recording, again to make a judgement about her.

    Just listened to parts of Mitropoulos again... no, I hate the conducting. Oh how beautiful Fritz Busch does things instead. Busch and Klemperer are my favorites... and later or tomorrow I'll listen again to some Giulini, but he likely won't do it...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Jan 29 09:27:56 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 29. Januar 2023 um 17:57:36 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
    but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
    are some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
    bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most
    Zauberflöte recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
    stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
    conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..
    I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they were
    as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
    Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
    Who would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?

    Thinking about it, I really liked Streich... She might be my favorite, alongside Mirella Freni in Klemperer's recording. Maybe I was wrong about Mitropoulos, it's actually a very enjoyable production, even though some parts just feel too fast. Would have
    to listen to Mildmay, the Zerlina on Busch's recording, again to make a judgement about her.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 29 22:35:56 2023
    Listened to bits of Giulini's DG again last night, it's horrible. And I actually really like Gueden's voice, it's probably more the fault of Krips or Kleiber in the respective cases that I don't connect too much (or as much as in other recordings) with
    the pieces she is singing. Krips would likely end up as my 3rd favorite DG recording, maybe alongside Mitropoulos... but wrt to phrasing they both have a lot to learn from people like Busch and Klemperer...

    From what I remember wrt HIP recordings I think probably Gardiner and Harnoncourt are best, but I don't really like either of them (Jacobs and Currentzis etc being way more horrible).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Jan 30 13:05:25 2023
    On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
    but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
    are some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
    bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most
    Zauberflöte recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
    stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
    conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..
    I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they were
    as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
    Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
    Who would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?

    Ever heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Jan 30 14:23:40 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 22:05:28 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
    but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
    are some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
    bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most
    Zauberflöte recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
    other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
    the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about
    it.. I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they
    were as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
    Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
    Who would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
    Ever heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEw

    She seems fine, but the conducting is such a mess that it really doesn't matter and it's hard to tell.

    My favorite DG-recs definitely are Busch and Klemperer - I love both (I know Klemperer's way better, and I'd probably tend towards it; the problem with Busch is definitely the sound, which also makes me unsure if I'm not really mistaken and imagining the
    music to be better than it is/would be with better sound, but listening to it, it just feels so natural; and when I compared parts with Krips' I tended to favor Busch despite the sound). Second favorite DG recs: Krips and Mitropoulos (note: I don't find
    Krips or Mitropoulos "horrible" I guess, even though in parts they really are horrible, but in the end they surely are way better than Giulini, Karajan, Furtwängler etc. and they have magical moments, but all in all, when I compare them to Klemperer and
    Busch, they tend to sound horrible. When listening to parts of say Krips' DG I yearn for Klemperer's). Maybe I need all 4.

    Favorite Zauberflöte-recs: Fricsay, Klemperer (would probably tend towards Klemperer when pressed. WRT Klemperer: My main problem seems to be the ouverture (same as in DG), it's just so heavy, as soon as they sing, the problem disappears for me, except
    for some parts. ---I don't understand what I liked about Beecham in the first place (maybe Papageno?), I think he is actually a horrible Mozartean. I'd rate Sawallisch second. Maybe I need all 3.

    Favorite Nozze: Kleiber is horrible, he really is just horrible, not even the singing can save it. He might be more horrible than Karajan in Mozart (not neccessarily in Nozze). Very likely so. So my favorite Nozze is: Fricsay's (not so sure about Busch
    this time, it isn't bad, but not as good as DG it seems; writing this out of memory, still want to doublecheck this). Really difficult to find a good Nozze, I'm just realizing. hmmmm... can't think of any other Nozze than Fricsay's that I really like...
    there is not even a second place.

    Favorite Serail: Fricsay

    Cosi: Maybe none? Maybe there is only a second place here: Sawallisch? But I am very unsure. Would have to listen again. But likely Sawallisch is better than Karajan.

    WRT singing over conducting in operas: Ofc the singing is the thing which it centers around (similar to how a piano concerto centers around a piano), but singing can't save an opera if the concept is bad (see Margit Bokor's Z. - she doesn't sound bad, it
    seems she has a nice voice, but it's hard for me to tell whether she is a good singer, because the concept (of the conductor - I guess it's his) is such a mess)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 31 02:11:43 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 23:23:43 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 22:05:28 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
    but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
    are some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out
    a bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most
    Zauberflöte recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
    other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
    the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about
    it.. I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they
    were as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with
    his Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live
    performance Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
    Who would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
    Ever heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEw
    She seems fine, but the conducting is such a mess that it really doesn't matter and it's hard to tell.

    My favorite DG-recs definitely are Busch and Klemperer - I love both (I know Klemperer's way better, and I'd probably tend towards it; the problem with Busch is definitely the sound, which also makes me unsure if I'm not really mistaken and imagining
    the music to be better than it is/would be with better sound, but listening to it, it just feels so natural; and when I compared parts with Krips' I tended to favor Busch despite the sound). Second favorite DG recs: Krips and Mitropoulos (note: I don't
    find Krips or Mitropoulos "horrible" I guess, even though in parts they really are horrible, but in the end they surely are way better than Giulini, Karajan, Furtwängler etc. and they have magical moments, but all in all, when I compare them to
    Klemperer and Busch, they tend to sound horrible. When listening to parts of say Krips' DG I yearn for Klemperer's). Maybe I need all 4.

    Having listened to parts of Mitropoulos' DG again last night, he just doesn't work. He seems vulgar at points, not that it's generally a bad thing, especially wrt DG, but it's very much in bad taste... he sort of "rapes" very beautiful passages by being
    relentless and driven and not really having a feeling for phrasing. Klemperer's DG is also quite vulgar, but in good taste.

    Still have to make up my mind about Krips', if I really need it. Same with Busch's, but going by my memory it was really good.


    Favorite Zauberflöte-recs: Fricsay, Klemperer (would probably tend towards Klemperer when pressed. WRT Klemperer: My main problem seems to be the ouverture (same as in DG), it's just so heavy, as soon as they sing, the problem disappears for me,
    except for some parts. ---I don't understand what I liked about Beecham in the first place (maybe Papageno?), I think he is actually a horrible Mozartean. I'd rate Sawallisch second. Maybe I need all 3.

    Not really sure if I need Sawallisch's Zauberflöte after Klemperer's and Fricsay's; probably not... I really don't like Schreier at all.


    Favorite Nozze: Kleiber is horrible, he really is just horrible, not even the singing can save it. He might be more horrible than Karajan in Mozart (not neccessarily in Nozze). Very likely so. So my favorite Nozze is: Fricsay's (not so sure about Busch
    this time, it isn't bad, but not as good as DG it seems; writing this out of memory, still want to doublecheck this). Really difficult to find a good Nozze, I'm just realizing. hmmmm... can't think of any other Nozze than Fricsay's that I really like...
    there is not even a second place.

    Hmmmm... will have to give Busch a fair listen... surely I don't like Kleiber, Karajan, Giulini, Haitink, Böhm, Solti, Leinsdorf, Abbado, Suitner and what not; I just don't think any of them reaches Fricsay's sense for the music.


    Favorite Serail: Fricsay

    Cosi: Maybe none? Maybe there is only a second place here: Sawallisch? But I am very unsure. Would have to listen again. But likely Sawallisch is better than Karajan.

    WRT singing over conducting in operas: Ofc the singing is the thing which it centers around (similar to how a piano concerto centers around a piano), but singing can't save an opera if the concept is bad (see Margit Bokor's Z. - she doesn't sound bad,
    it seems she has a nice voice, but it's hard for me to tell whether she is a good singer, because the concept (of the conductor - I guess it's his) is such a mess)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Tue Jan 31 08:51:23 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 22:05:28 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
    but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
    are some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
    bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most
    Zauberflöte recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
    other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
    the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about
    it.. I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they
    were as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
    Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
    Who would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
    Ever heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEw

    Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm leaving out newer singers in my consideration):

    Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone

    These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart... thinking about it. I was an idiot of being dismissive of Gueden's batti batti. But I am still unsure about Krips (will have to figure out later today when I have time).

    WRT Fritz Busch, I just dipped into some of his Beethoven and also Nozze again, not very impressed. Same are my memories about his cosi. But his DG is I think quite fine, but I was probably a little over enthusiastic when I first wrote about him here,
    after having discovered him. Definitely Klemperer, and probably after that Krips; the problem with Fricsay is just really the volume of the orchestra in contrast to the singers', it seems so low to me in some places.

    See here (I might have also been a bit too dismissive with Seefried, but she doesn't seem as good as the 6 mentioned above):

    Seefried/Fricsay:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2gVurrwXBg

    Gueden/Krips

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a8

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 31 10:30:04 2023
    On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
    but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
    are some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out a
    bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most
    Zauberflöte recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and other
    stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with the
    conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about it..
    I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they were
    as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with his
    Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live performance
    Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
    Who would be your favorite Zerlina?...

    Ever heard Sayao?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG587C4eClc

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Jan 31 23:26:32 2023
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
    Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
    leaving out newer singers in my consideration):

    Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
    Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone

    These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...

    Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
    favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
    are OK, tough not great.

    My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
    leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
    sing and hold C8!

    dk

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Feb 1 00:14:09 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
    Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
    leaving out newer singers in my consideration):

    Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
    Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone

    These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...
    Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
    favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
    are OK, tough not great.

    It would be very nice to hear arguments that would give me an idea how you arrived at your conclusion.

    I am trying to figure things out, and while doing so it would be nice to hear from others about their thoughts about singers - thoughts that go beyond "x puts y in the toilet". It would also be interesting to hear if someone else views my classification
    of the singers in a similar way or not, and expand on this. From you guys one can learn nothing...

    You have got this "Christian" - Bob Harper -, who seems to have very little empathy, and who calls others "fools" and says they have no taste for disliking Kleiber's Nozze (Bob, usually this is what Dan does, but now you do it too); no arguments on his
    side, just personal attacks. Tells us all who the fool really is. Bob will _ofc_ be completely oblivious to his mistakes, he will just continue to feel good about himself, as he has all reasons to feel good about himself and be smug; going to church to
    confess every few months and stuff. It would have been helpful if Bob actually tried to explain to me why he though that I was wrong, but _ofc_ this is not to be expected here.

    Then you got g who at least in one way or the other actually reacts in a reasonable way to my posts, trying to show me other singers. Problem is... he rarely takes time to express his thoughts, mostly just posting links, while I would be interested to
    hear what he thinks about the singers and why he thinks he likes one more than the other.

    And then there is Dan... who often seems to have a good feeling for texture, phrasing, touch and stuff, but who posts a lot of shit.


    My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
    leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
    sing and hold C8!

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Feb 1 03:42:52 2023
    On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:14:12 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
    Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
    leaving out newer singers in my consideration):

    Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
    Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone

    These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...

    Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
    favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
    are OK, tough not great.

    It would be very nice to hear arguments that would
    give me an idea how you arrived at your conclusion.

    Ditto. Why don't you practice what you preach? You
    have your favorites and you ranked them by your
    criteria, which are about as clear and ratonal as
    mud.

    I have my favorites and I ranked them by the
    clarity of their voices and by their ability to
    sing in perfect pitch and without excessive
    vibrato. I am not bent on convincing anyone
    of anything.

    Case closed.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Feb 1 04:12:29 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 12:42:55 UTC+1:
    On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 12:14:12 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
    Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
    leaving out newer singers in my consideration):

    Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
    Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone

    These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...

    Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
    favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
    are OK, tough not great.

    It would be very nice to hear arguments that would
    give me an idea how you arrived at your conclusion.
    Ditto. Why don't you practice what you preach? You
    have your favorites and you ranked them by your
    criteria, which are about as clear and ratonal as
    mud.

    While I agree with you that my arguments were poorly formulated, which I already acknowledged in my response to Bob, I at least tried to put my feelings in words. Sure I could have done better.

    Instead of attacking me, it would have been helpful, if other people chimed in to express their thoughts. Where they think I went wrong etc. by giving concrete examples.


    I have my favorites and I ranked them by the
    clarity of their voices and by their ability to
    sing in perfect pitch and without excessive
    vibrato. I am not bent on convincing anyone
    of anything.

    In contrast to you I actually provided links to support my arguments. It would have been helpful if you provided some examples.

    You rank them by their ability to sing in perfect pitch and without excessive vibrato, with the latter being a subjective criterion. I don't know what you view as "excessive vibrato" and what not, I guess I have a "feeling" for what you might consider
    excessive, but I can't be sure as long as you don't make some clear examples.

    Show me where Berger sings in perfect pitch, and Streich doesn't - preferably the same aria.
    Show me what you consider to be "excessive vibrato" by making an example, and contrasting that example with someone who does use the right amount of vibrato - preferagbly the same aria.

    This would help someone like me who is not musically educated to get a better sense of things. Attacking my person is just pathetic.


    Case closed.

    dk

    Lesson for today: Don't use your relatives that perished during the shoah to lend yourself credibility you fucking baffoon.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Feb 2 15:12:11 2023
    On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 2:23:43 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 30. Januar 2023 um 22:05:28 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 22:52:54 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 12:05:23 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 20:35:49 UTC+1:
    On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:34:14 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 27. Januar 2023 um 07:22:53 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:45:36 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 07:06:52 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:48:52 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 20. Januar 2023 um 00:30:09 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 2:07:04 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 22:33:05 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:48:42 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2023 um 23:43:42 UTC+1:
    Mitropoulos just sucks in Don Giovanni (what does a good cast in bad hands bring? nothing)... I don't think he was good generally from what I heard...

    Fricsay and Busch are the best in DG imo... (I should add that I haven't listened to all, but I think most, especially the well regarded - even HIP - and that I didn't listen to every one I listened to completely)

    Pianists and conductors and singers and violinists all have trouble with mozart hmmmm
    I think only Fricsay, Busch and Maag really had a touch for Mozart. I should maybe relisten to Erich Kleiber- I wasn't too impressed with C. Kleiber's 36 and 33... i should relisten though
    Problem with Fricsay Don Giovanni is that the sound of the orchestra is too low... (besides that the singing could be better in places) - so I can't recommend it.

    Honestly... Fritz Busch... and probably Klemperer are the only ones that make sense to me in DG. So hard to find a perfect recording... ofc singing in Fritz Busch also has some problems...

    Maybe I should try Krips again. I think he at least might be better than Mitropoulos, Karajan and Giulini...
    Fricsay's Zauberflöte is way too driven... Always had this problem with it. Probably Sawallisch is better overall even though Schreier sucks and his conducting seems to miss something... I should probably listen to Karajan 1950,
    but I assume I will also find him too driven (as he often is in his live or earlier mozart recordings). There just exists no Zauberflöte I really enjoy I guess... sad world... I so often reevaluated this and always came back to Klemperer, because there
    are some really beautiful bits in it, but god damn it, he really fucks up a lot as well.
    http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/zauberflote.html
    Thanks, but I already know about it. Same goes for http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mozart-Zauberflote-survey.htm.
    I've also read enough threads on different forums about Zauberflöte recordings.

    There just doesn't seem to be a fully enjoyable Zauberflöte for me - maybe Beecham... from what I heard just now it sounded really nice and quite promising, I have never really listened to this recording of it, need to check it out
    a bit more. Might be the best. No Mackerras, No Jacobs, No Gardiner, No Harnoncourt etc for me, I really don't like any of them, even though they are ofc different from each other and Mackerras isn't really hip; also no Szell, no Toscanini... etc Most
    Zauberflöte recordings just leave a lot too be desired...

    WRT to Furtwängler I really don't get what the fuss is about in general... his Mozart and Beethoven is just too "thick" and also too "wobbly" for me, and he doesn't seem to have a good feeling for the music wrt to phrasing - and
    other stuff I heard from him is also not that great... besides his Brahms 1,3,4 I guess.
    If you like the Queen of N."s first aria, my favorite soprano for that Erika Koth. Before I heard her recording, I always couldn't wait for the first slow section to be over and done with. When she sings it, it almost seems too short.
    Very beautiful, haven't heard this - not a fan of Solti though, so not sure if I should look further into that recording...

    That's not her only recording of that aria.

    She also made a studio recording accompanied by Schüchter:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/13680708-Erika-Koeth-Mozart-Richard-Strauss-Sings-Arias-Of-Mozart-And-Richard-Strauss
    Yeah I know, I stumbled on that recording a bit after I posted here. What I said was also a bit prone to be misunderstood; I thought that there was an older Solti Zauberflöte recording out of which the aria-part was taken, so I wasn't sure
    whether to look into that recordign any further, only realizing later that she only recorded the aria with him.

    Thanks for posting the link though, didn't know she recorded DG arias. So beautiful, and the orchestra is also beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPhirV80FjU

    Compare to Hilde Gueden and Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJYz75C7a

    Nothing ever happens, and I'm also not so sure about Gueden's voice being as fitting for Mozart - which doesn't strike me generally much here - as Köth's.

    Thanks for having brought this recording to my attention g.
    Gueden was the Countess on Suitner's recording:

    https://parterre.com/2020/03/20/die-hochzeit-des-figaro/
    I really don't like her voice too much for Mozart. It doesn't seem clear and sharp enough, it doesn't hurt my ears, but it seems maybe color is missing (layman's perspective), and she also doesn't phrase well (might ofc also have to do sth with
    the conductor), there are no distinctions, accents missing, it's all softened out and a bit blurry - she may hit every note, I can't tell, but it's all lame; under Böhm, Krips or Kleiber. I also haven't looked too much into singers yet. Thinking about
    it.. I would have to rate Kleiber way lower in my ranking for Nozzes than 3rd place I think... not because of Gueden, he is no good Mozart conductor, sorry. I would have to listen to Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 again, I always liked them, but never thought they
    were as good as Mengelbergs.

    WRT Köth's Batti Batti: The problem with Köth's Batti batti seems to me near the end, where her voice winches (? not sure if this is the right word) a bit, and it actually seems a little fast to me having listening to it again, but at least
    something is happening. And maybe she roles the "r" too much.

    I must still have to listen to more singers to get an ear. But in general I tend to like voices in the style of Köth's more in Mozart.

    WRT Klemperer... some moments out of DG and Zauberlföte I just can't get out of of my mind - they really are magical - even though I am really not too fond of his approach in general, as well as a few of the singers. The problem I have with
    his Mozart is similar to the problem I have with his 3rd movement of DLVDE, I think.
    I'm not crazy about Gueden's voice although Bob Harper said here that he saw her as Susannah and liked her.

    To give one a better idea of the pecking order of sopranos which she seemed to be on top of, in 1954 Streich recorded two complete studio Zerbinetta's--one with Karajan and the other with Keilberth. But also in 1954, she sang in a live
    performance Najade to Gueden's Zerbinetta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUVtTRdsVVE
    Who would be your favorite Zerlina? Which would be your favorite DG or Zauberflöte?
    Ever heard .Margit Bokor's Z.?:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtay1Cn2dEw
    She seems fine, but the conducting is such a mess that it really doesn't matter and it's hard to tell.

    My favorite DG-recs definitely are Busch and Klemperer - I love both (I know Klemperer's way better, and I'd probably tend towards it; the problem with Busch is definitely the sound, which also makes me unsure if I'm not really mistaken and imagining
    the music to be better than it is/would be with better sound, but listening to it, it just feels so natural; and when I compared parts with Krips' I tended to favor Busch despite the sound). Second favorite DG recs: Krips and Mitropoulos (note: I don't
    find Krips or Mitropoulos "horrible" I guess, even though in parts they really are horrible, but in the end they surely are way better than Giulini, Karajan, Furtwängler etc. and they have magical moments, but all in all, when I compare them to
    Klemperer and Busch, they tend to sound horrible. When listening to parts of say Krips' DG I yearn for Klemperer's). Maybe I need all 4.

    (Y. upload):

    "THIS IS HOW MOZART CONDUCTED DON GIOVANNI IN 1787 !"

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 3 00:25:56 2023
    I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.

    Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
    hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
    accents have been smoothed out etc. Gould was apparently fond of Krips' Mozart style, I am not; I'm more with Rubinstein who (as I have read in another forum), seemed to have problems with Krips' conducting being too "inspirational" (stupid word in this
    context, but it's what was used), saying that he (Rubinstein) ist primarily concerned about rhythmn and only secondary about "methaphysics". I think one can sort of understand where Rubinstien is coming from here.

    Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.

    In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low, it
    has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.

    In Nozze: Fricsay

    In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.

    In Serail: Fricsay

    I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick orchestral
    sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.

    I also have to revise my list of favorite composers again after reevaluating it for the nth time; back to square one here as well:

    My favorite composers: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Schoenberg (still listening to Berg and Webern - I enjoy them, but I'm not sure if I would rate them as high as the 5 mentioned; I also enjoy Schubert, but I prefer the composers named above over
    him, I have similar thoughts about Haydn. I like Schubert and Haydn, but their music just doesn't grab me as much as the 5 composers named above. Schumann and Mahler are really problematic for me, I just can't connect with them deeply, they are just too
    sentimental for me).

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Feb 3 08:44:43 2023
    On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.

    Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
    hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
    accents have been smoothed out etc. Gould was apparently fond of Krips' Mozart style, I am not; I'm more with Rubinstein who (as I have read in another forum), seemed to have problems with Krips' conducting being too "inspirational" (stupid word in this
    context, but it's what was used), saying that he (Rubinstein) ist primarily concerned about rhythmn and only secondary about "methaphysics". I think one can sort of understand where Rubinstien is coming from here.

    Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.

    In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low, it
    has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.

    In Nozze: Fricsay

    In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.

    In Serail: Fricsay

    I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick orchestral
    sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.

    Hurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Sat Feb 4 00:52:54 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. Februar 2023 um 17:44:46 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.

    Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
    hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
    accents have been smoothed out etc. Gould was apparently fond of Krips' Mozart style, I am not; I'm more with Rubinstein who (as I have read in another forum), seemed to have problems with Krips' conducting being too "inspirational" (stupid word in this
    context, but it's what was used), saying that he (Rubinstein) ist primarily concerned about rhythmn and only secondary about "methaphysics". I think one can sort of understand where Rubinstien is coming from here.

    Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.

    In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low,
    it has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.

    In Nozze: Fricsay

    In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.

    In Serail: Fricsay

    I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick
    orchestral sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.
    Hurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.

    Funnily I watched it a few days ago. I haven't watched Hurwitz in a long time; I ofc know about him, but never looked much into his vids, just a bit in the past. So it was quite a coincidence to stumble upon his upload on Klemperer's operas, while I was
    reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings - among them Klemperer's - myself. I really like Hurwitz's personality, and he often offers valuable insights and thoughts - not always ofc, and as far as I remember, he didn't really offer any valuable insights
    in this specific video as well, "Klemperer's Mozart operas are controversial" and "I don't mind the slow tempi" and "his Zauberflöte recording was always praised for the singing" were some of the things he said... well, he is not wrong, but these aren't
    really valuable insights, are they?

    On another note: I was having doubts about Mengelberg recently, so I was once again on a quest for Beethoven recordings I haven't heard. This brought me to Hurwitz's upload on Beethoven 5 recordings, and I really like one of his favorites: George Szell +
    Wiener Philharmoniker; this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvOREC-5gHE

    But... I'm still unsure, I think I prefer Mengelberg's style in Beethoven; rubato, carving out details, there is often a real dialogue between the instruments etc. Szell just seems a bit too stiff in Beethoven for me, and maybe also a bit too dry. His
    style works better in Haydn. I prefer Szell's B5 to most other B5s, but not sure yet...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Feb 4 01:14:53 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 4. Februar 2023 um 09:52:56 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. Februar 2023 um 17:44:46 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.

    Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
    hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
    accents have been smoothed out etc. Gould was apparently fond of Krips' Mozart style, I am not; I'm more with Rubinstein who (as I have read in another forum), seemed to have problems with Krips' conducting being too "inspirational" (stupid word in this
    context, but it's what was used), saying that he (Rubinstein) ist primarily concerned about rhythmn and only secondary about "methaphysics". I think one can sort of understand where Rubinstien is coming from here.

    Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.

    In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low,
    it has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.

    In Nozze: Fricsay

    In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.

    In Serail: Fricsay

    I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick
    orchestral sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.
    Hurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.
    Funnily I watched it a few days ago. I haven't watched Hurwitz in a long time; I ofc know about him, but never looked much into his vids, just a bit in the past. So it was quite a coincidence to stumble upon his upload on Klemperer's operas, while I
    was reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings - among them Klemperer's - myself. I really like Hurwitz's personality, and he often offers valuable insights and thoughts - not always ofc, and as far as I remember, he didn't really offer any valuable
    insights in this specific video as well, "Klemperer's Mozart operas are controversial" and "I don't mind the slow tempi" and "his Zauberflöte recording was always praised for the singing" were some of the things he said... well, he is not wrong, but
    these aren't really valuable insights, are they?

    On another note: I was having doubts about Mengelberg recently, so I was once again on a quest for Beethoven recordings I haven't heard. This brought me to Hurwitz's upload on Beethoven 5 recordings, and I really like one of his favorites: George Szell
    + Wiener Philharmoniker; this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvOREC-5gHE

    But... I'm still unsure, I think I prefer Mengelberg's style in Beethoven; rubato, carving out details, there is often a real dialogue between the instruments etc. Szell just seems a bit too stiff in Beethoven for me, and maybe also a bit too dry. His
    style works better in Haydn. I prefer Szell's B5 to most other B5s, but not sure yet...

    Just remembered, another point he made was that in Mozart's time people probably didn't play as fast as today's hip-performers do (people not being as technically adept as today's performers) - that is a valuable thought I think, and I think he is
    probably right.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Feb 6 06:39:22 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. Februar 2023 um 17:44:46 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.

    Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
    hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
    accents have been smoothed out etc. Gould was apparently fond of Krips' Mozart style, I am not; I'm more with Rubinstein who (as I have read in another forum), seemed to have problems with Krips' conducting being too "inspirational" (stupid word in this
    context, but it's what was used), saying that he (Rubinstein) ist primarily concerned about rhythmn and only secondary about "methaphysics". I think one can sort of understand where Rubinstien is coming from here.

    Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.

    In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low,
    it has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.

    In Nozze: Fricsay

    In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.

    In Serail: Fricsay

    I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick
    orchestral sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.
    Hurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.

    BTW... I listened to Klemperer's Don Giovanni again last night, and no, it doesn't work at all for me anymore, in fact it has really become unlistenable to me; same with his Zauberflöte. The singing most of the time is really beautiful, but heck... the
    conducting is horrible. I don't know what I was thinking when I liked his Zauberflöte and Don Giovanni, I always had my doubts. For sure I'm happy to have realized my mistake and to move on.

    WRT Erika Köth: I love her, I stumbled upon Fricsay's other Don Giovanni (DVD release sung in German) after listening to Klemperer, she sings Zerlina there - oh man, I love it. The whole production seems to be really great (didn't listen to all of it,
    since I had to go to bed at some point, but from what I heard I really loved it. Will have to buy.)

    With this realization, I'd actually rate Sawallisch (Peter Schreier isn't really as bad as I made him out to be in some other post, but hmm, have to make up my mind) above Klemperer in Zauberflöte, but still below Fricsay; Klemperer is likely at
    somewhere at the bottom of my rankings now (also in DG, and DLVDE).

    I'd also rate Krips above Klemperer in DG, I'd even rate Mitropoulos above Klemperer in DG.

    Another recording I always liked of Klemperer (when I was still listening to Mahler) was DLVDE, but today I'd rate Reiner, Jochum, Horenstein above him.

    Anyway, Erika Köth is really great, thanks for mentioning her.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Feb 6 09:10:37 2023
    On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 6:39:25 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. Februar 2023 um 17:44:46 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:25:59 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    I'm back to square one after reevaluating the Mozart opera recordings for the nth time.

    Krips just doesn't really work for me in DG - not just in DG, but generally speaking. He sure gets the phrasing better than Mitropoulos and most others; giving the music time to unfold, not rushing through passages etc. He also doesn't create a "
    hodgepodge of sounds" as Mitropoulos or Furtwängler do, he is more analytical (we can hear the different instruments clearly etc). But, the problem is, it just floats along, there is a lack of tension, no momentum - it's too "gemütlich" for me, the
    accents have been smoothed out etc. Gould was apparently fond of Krips' Mozart style, I am not; I'm more with Rubinstein who (as I have read in another forum), seemed to have problems with Krips' conducting being too "inspirational" (stupid word in this
    context, but it's what was used), saying that he (Rubinstein) ist primarily concerned about rhythmn and only secondary about "methaphysics". I think one can sort of understand where Rubinstien is coming from here.

    Krips often also sounds very dry. Maybe always? Not just in DG, but also in Schubert or in the Brahms PC with Rubinstein, but this could also be the fault of the recording-process.

    In DG I like most: Fricsay and Klemperer. I have no problems with Fricsay's cast except maybe a little for Jurinac (but that might I change). And I was also wrong in saying that the volume of the orchestra in Fricsay's recording is a little bit low,
    it has a chamber-like quality which I actually like. And what I said about Klemperer's ouverture being too heavy... I guess it works, regarding his concept of the opera as a whole; it couldn't sound any lighter concerning what follows.

    In Nozze: Fricsay

    In Zauberflöte: Fricsay and Klemperer.

    In Serail: Fricsay

    I should say that in general I prefer Fricsay's approach to Mozart more than Klemperer's; lighter voices, lighter orchestra etc. But the heavy voices in Klemperer's recording do work in the context; heavy orchestra, serious atmosphere, thick
    orchestral sounds etc. While Siepi in Krips' recording sometimes seems a bit out of place with his heavy voice, the orchestra's sound is not thick enough to carry it.
    Hurwitz recently did an upload on Klemperer's Mozart operas.
    BTW... I listened to Klemperer's Don Giovanni again last night, and no, it doesn't work at all for me anymore, in fact it has really become unlistenable to me; same with his Zauberflöte. The singing most of the time is really beautiful, but heck...
    the conducting is horrible. I don't know what I was thinking when I liked his Zauberflöte and Don Giovanni, I always had my doubts. For sure I'm happy to have realized my mistake and to move on.

    WRT Erika Köth: I love her, I stumbled upon Fricsay's other Don Giovanni (DVD release sung in German) after listening to Klemperer, she sings Zerlina there - oh man, I love it. The whole production seems to be really great (didn't listen to all of it,
    since I had to go to bed at some point, but from what I heard I really loved it. Will have to buy.)

    With this realization, I'd actually rate Sawallisch (Peter Schreier isn't really as bad as I made him out to be in some other post, but hmm, have to make up my mind) above Klemperer in Zauberflöte, but still below Fricsay; Klemperer is likely at
    somewhere at the bottom of my rankings now (also in DG, and DLVDE).

    I'd also rate Krips above Klemperer in DG, I'd even rate Mitropoulos above Klemperer in DG.

    Another recording I always liked of Klemperer (when I was still listening to Mahler) was DLVDE, but today I'd rate Reiner, Jochum, Horenstein above him.

    Anyway, Erika Köth is really great, thanks for mentioning her.

    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Feb 7 03:50:52 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 7. Februar 2023 um 12:33:23 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK
    I will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder?

    Listened a bit more to Sawallisch yesterday evening/night; Brahms' Alto-Rhapsody, parts of Mozart's Cosi fan tutte and Zauberflöte (the recording with Moser etc). Man, was I wrong about him, he is really good, he likely is one of my favorite
    conductors now (especially wrt Brahms' Alto-Rhapsody and Mozart. I remember his Mozart KV 550 also being really good, I will have to listen again with my new ears). My favorite Mozart conductors now: Fricsay, Maag and Sawallisch.

    With that said, screw Celibidache honestly... I feel similar about him as I do about Klemperer; some things he does really beautifully, but on the whole it never works out (except maybe in some cases, such as Celibidache's Till Eulenspiegel).

    Without having thought too deeply about it:
    -Similarities (between Celibidache and Klemperer): Both are slow, both are analytical (bringing out the different instruments), both have steady tempi
    -Differences: Klemperer basically just goes by the score; while Celibidache changes things in the score (he makes climaxes where there are no climaxes, or the otherway around: doesn't play climaxes where climaxes are noted in the score; or he
    emphasises different instruments (or musical ideas) as opposed to other recordings). Klemperer is very harsh and angular; while Celibidache is very soft and round.

    I neither like Celibidache nor Klemperer anymore.

    Thinking about it:
    Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuff I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm... probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but hmmmm... from what
    I remember I had a lot of issues with them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And Walter ofc.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Tue Feb 7 03:33:20 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK

    I will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder?

    Listened a bit more to Sawallisch yesterday evening/night; Brahms' Alto-Rhapsody, parts of Mozart's Cosi fan tutte and Zauberflöte (the recording with Moser etc). Man, was I wrong about him, he is really good, he likely is one of my favorite conductors
    now (especially wrt Brahms' Alto-Rhapsody and Mozart. I remember his Mozart KV 550 also being really good, I will have to listen again with my new ears). My favorite Mozart conductors now: Fricsay, Maag and Sawallisch.

    With that said, screw Celibidache honestly... I feel similar about him as I do about Klemperer; some things he does really beautifully, but on the whole it never works out (except maybe in some cases, such as Celibidache's Till Eulenspiegel).

    Without having thought too deeply about it:
    -Similarities (between Celibidache and Klemperer): Both are slow, both are analytical (bringing out the different instruments), both have steady tempi
    -Differences: Klemperer basically just goes by the score; while Celibidache changes things in the score (he makes climaxes where there are no climaxes, or the otherway around: doesn't play climaxes where climaxes are noted in the score; or he emphasises
    different instruments (or musical ideas) as opposed to other recordings). Klemperer is very harsh and angular; while Celibidache is very soft and round.

    I neither like Celibidache nor Klemperer anymore.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Feb 7 13:56:46 2023
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:50:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuff
    I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm...
    probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most
    definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but
    hmmmm... from what I remember I had a lot of issues with
    them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the
    Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And
    Walter ofc.

    Anyone left?

    dk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Feb 7 17:49:25 2023
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK
    I will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...

    The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:

    (Y. upload):

    "Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger"

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Tue Feb 7 17:52:01 2023
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK
    I will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...

    The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:

    (Y. upload):

    "Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger"

    If you have a Spotify account, this is probably the lieder recording that I would use to try to convert others to lieder:

    https://open.spotify.com/track/3AClUT7PFOfmbSKb2fL8Gp?si=3e255a295fd043f9&nd=1

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Tue Feb 7 22:11:51 2023
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:52:04 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:

    If you have a Spotify account, this is probably the lieder
    recording that I would use to try to convert others to lieder:

    https://open.spotify.com/track/3AClUT7PFOfmbSKb2fL8Gp?si=3e255a295fd043f9&nd=1

    No missionary work, please! Anneliese is
    good, but she isn't worth a conversion.

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Tue Feb 7 23:03:10 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 7. Februar 2023 um 22:56:49 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:50:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuff
    I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm...
    probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most
    definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but
    hmmmm... from what I remember I had a lot of issues with
    them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the
    Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And
    Walter ofc.
    Anyone left?

    dk

    Screw Böhm, Abendroth, Thielemann, Schuricht, Masur and Wand, Schmidt-Isserstedt as well; screw Barbirolli, Sargent, Mravinsky, Gergiev, Svetlanov, Bernstein, Szell, Koussevitsky... well, I guess, screw about 99% of the conductors.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Feb 7 23:37:04 2023
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 11:03:13 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 7. Februar 2023 um 22:56:49 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:50:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuff
    I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm...
    probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most
    definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but
    hmmmm... from what I remember I had a lot of issues with
    them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the
    Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And
    Walter ofc.

    Screw Böhm, Abendroth, Thielemann, Schuricht, Masur and
    Wand, Schmidt-Isserstedt as well; screw Barbirolli, Sargent,
    Mravinsky, Gergiev, Svetlanov, Bernstein, Szell, Koussevitsky...
    well, I guess, screw about 99% of the conductors.

    You sound like Celibidache! ;-)

    dk

    PS. Time to try some semi-conductors?

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Feb 8 05:24:54 2023
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 8. Februar 2023 um 08:37:07 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 11:03:13 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 7. Februar 2023 um 22:56:49 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:50:54 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Screw Furtwängler as well - even in Brahms (the only stuff
    I sort of liked of him). Screw Toscanini too. And hmmm...
    probably screw E. Kleiber as well (screw C. Kleiber most
    definitely); will have to check out his B5 and B9 again, but
    hmmmm... from what I remember I had a lot of issues with
    them (besides the bad recording of B9)... I hate how the
    Kleiber's start the B5... so ya, screw Kleiber as well. And
    Walter ofc.

    Screw Böhm, Abendroth, Thielemann, Schuricht, Masur and
    Wand, Schmidt-Isserstedt as well; screw Barbirolli, Sargent,
    Mravinsky, Gergiev, Svetlanov, Bernstein, Szell, Koussevitsky...
    well, I guess, screw about 99% of the conductors.
    You sound like Celibidache! ;-)

    I tolerate no nonsense. Even Celibidache does not come off well in my evaluation. He may get some things better than the conductors mentioned, but then he screws up too much for me to consider him to be good (not even using the word great here). If i
    were a pianist, I would never want to make music with Celibidache; I hate his approach to music, so much obscurantism (possibly influenced by being indoctrinated with buddhist mythology) - just take a look at this quote:

    "When do I know that a piece has come to its end? I know it when the end is in the beginning. When the end keeps what the beginning promised." Celibidache

    What pseudo-philosophical nonsense... he sounds like those god damn spiritual gurus (say Yogananda, Mathieu Ricard etc) giving aboslute nonsensical sermons, only for gullible people to fall for it. Celibidache seems to believe the shit he is talking too..
    . crazy, absolutely zero self-awareness, just completely in love with himself.

    In Beethoven for example I would choose many of the conductors I dismissed bove him (in Till Eulenspiegel... I guess he is the best, as maybe in some other pieces which I'm not too interested in).

    I would also not play 99% of the repertoire Celibidache conducted, as I not only dismiss 99% of the conductors, but I dismiss 99% of the "music" in this world.

    ----

    On another note:

    Just for fun I listened to bits of Erich Kleiber in B5 again (just to be sure)... oh man is he horrible (though not as horrible as Carlos). I then listened to some Horenstein... oh how wonderful he is... a great Beethoven conductor.


    dk

    PS. Time to try some semi-conductors?

    har har harrr... I wish Celibidache were a semi-conductor; then you would only need to supply additional heat to get some energetic performances... He is one of the most lethargic conductors...

    On another note: Schoenberg is not anymore one of my favorite composers; I'd rank Berg above him.

    My favorite composers: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Feb 8 15:05:16 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Mittwoch, 8. Februar 2023 um 02:49:28 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK
    I will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...

    The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:

    (Y. upload):

    "Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger"

    Thanks, checked it also with Köth, doesn't really click with me. I'll give it another try some day, same with Brahms- and Schubert-Lieder (and Schumann-Lieder; despite my fav composers, I ofc rate Haydn, Schumann, Mahler, Schoenberg, Webern and Berg
    highly; it's just, I like the others more, which is why I'm spending more time with them. Besides these composers I am not really interested in anythign else in music; still open-minded for newer stuff ofc, but after enough bad experience, it's time to
    spend much more time with good music instead of bad music...)

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 15:39:39 2023
    Want to redeem myself of what I said about Krips' Don Giovanni, and his conducting: He is a genius. I still think I'd rank Fricsay generally higher here, but I also love the Krips recording, as well as Sawallisch's 2 from what I heard, haven't heard too
    much though (1 in German, 1 in English). I'll probably need all mentioned here.

    I was an idiot for saying Krips sounded dry... but I still think compared to Klemperer's recording for example it sounded a bit dry; maybe it is the wrong word, because he is actually a colorful conductor; maybe it's also the recording, I don't know. And
    the orchestra not carrying the voice of Siepi was bullshit... shouldn't have said that. I was still figuring out my taste, and got a better sense while doing so.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Feb 15 12:50:22 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2023 um 21:44:58 UTC+1:
    *Sawallisch is disqualified.

    I was just listening to some parts of his Cosi again, parts that I had in the back of my mind because they rubbed me the wrong way: specifically Margaret Price and Brigitte Fassbaender. Horrible... just horrible... Price has too much vibrato for me
    definitely, and Fassbaender sometimes too. Reri Grist is great though, the only Mozartean in the whole cast.


    *Fassbaender from I remember also quite often (*too much vibrato), but her voice is just really not to my liking anyway, same with Price. I was just sort of seeing over these thigns I guess when I said I liked it, because well there are parts I liked
    really much *Reri Grist.

    And Sawallisch's conducting is just a bit heavy... the sound is too heavy for Mozart. I like it more the way Fricsay, Maag and Krips handle things (the orchestra of the recording with Köth that G mentioned is also very nice, and the orchestra of the
    record with Ingeborg Hallstein). So difficult finding a competent Mozart conductor... even Fricsay, Maag and Krips are not always great in Mozart.

    Guess Karajan's record of cosi is still the best. Should probably check it out again.

    I won't need Sawallisch's 2 DGs after this realization; Fricsay still best.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 15 12:44:55 2023
    *Sawallisch is disqualified.

    I was just listening to some parts of his Cosi again, parts that I had in the back of my mind because they rubbed me the wrong way: specifically Margaret Price and Brigitte Fassbaender. Horrible... just horrible... Price has too much vibrato for me
    definitely, and Fassbaender sometimes too. Reri Grist is great though, the only Mozartean in the whole cast.

    And Sawallisch's conducting is just a bit heavy... the sound is too heavy for Mozart. I like it more the way Fricsay, Maag and Krips handle things (the orchestra of the recording with Köth that G mentioned is also very nice, and the orchestra of the
    record with Ingeborg Hallstein). So difficult finding a competent Mozart conductor... even Fricsay, Maag and Krips are not always great in Mozart.

    Guess Karajan's record of cosi is still the best. Should probably check it out again.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Wed Feb 15 13:18:36 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2023 um 21:50:24 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2023 um 21:44:58 UTC+1:
    *Sawallisch is disqualified.

    I was just listening to some parts of his Cosi again, parts that I had in the back of my mind because they rubbed me the wrong way: specifically Margaret Price and Brigitte Fassbaender. Horrible... just horrible... Price has too much vibrato for me
    definitely, and Fassbaender sometimes too. Reri Grist is great though, the only Mozartean in the whole cast.

    *Fassbaender from I remember also quite often (*too much vibrato), but her voice is just really not to my liking anyway, same with Price. I was just sort of seeing over these thigns I guess when I said I liked it, because well there are parts I liked
    really much *Reri Grist.

    Pretty much everyone suck besides Grist...

    And Sawallisch's conducting is just a bit heavy... the sound is too heavy for Mozart. I like it more the way Fricsay, Maag and Krips handle things (the orchestra of the recording with Köth that G mentioned is also very nice, and the orchestra of the
    record with Ingeborg Hallstein). So difficult finding a competent Mozart conductor... even Fricsay, Maag and Krips are not always great in Mozart.


    The conducting is not just heavy, it really is just not good. There is no airy feeling... not enough fun.

    Guess Karajan's record of cosi is still the best. Should probably check it out again.
    I won't need Sawallisch's 2 DGs after this realization; Fricsay still best.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Feb 16 19:23:12 2023
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK
    I will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...

    The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:

    (Y. upload):

    "Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger

    Concerning Mozart, Koth also recorded Exsultate jubilate:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhC5o7szwo

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Feb 17 14:07:24 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 04:23:14 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK
    I will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...

    The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:

    (Y. upload):

    "Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger
    Concerning Mozart, Koth also recorded Exsultate jubilate:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhC5o7szwo

    Funny you posted this; I just came back to say - sorry g - but I don't like Köth; i should've stuck with my first feeling. In DG with Fricsay she seems to have a lot of vibrato (judging by my standards), and she really gets on my nerves somehow.

    Anyway, Fricsay's (the one without Köth, the cd release) is probably still the best DG... and Mitropoulos' is better than I made it out to be; Giulini is also better than I made it out to be, though not as good as Mitropoulos' in my opinion, I also just
    can't stand Waechter. The problem with Krips still seems to be for me... that he lacks some drama; everything is in perfect control, and it sounds beautiful, but it just doesn't grab me as much.

    My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Feb 17 14:21:08 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 23:07:28 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 04:23:14 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49:28 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Montag, 6. Februar 2023 um 18:10:40 UTC+1:
    I also like her lieder:

    https://www.amazon.com/German-Lieder-Erika-Koth/dp/B000OLG7RK
    I will check it out; in general though, I don't really like lieder (maybe this will change, but I doubt it). What would be some of your favorite Mozart Lieder? ...

    The tempo of this is on the fast-side, but see how you feel about it:

    (Y. upload):

    "Mozart Abendempfindung KV 523 Anneliese Rothenberger
    Concerning Mozart, Koth also recorded Exsultate jubilate:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhC5o7szwo
    Funny you posted this; I just came back to say - sorry g - but I don't like Köth; i should've stuck with my first feeling. In DG with Fricsay she seems to have a lot of vibrato (judging by my standards), and she really gets on my nerves somehow.

    Anyway, Fricsay's (the one without Köth, the cd release) is probably still the best DG... and Mitropoulos' is better than I made it out to be; Giulini is also better than I made it out to be, though not as good as Mitropoulos' in my opinion, I also
    just can't stand Waechter. The problem with Krips still seems to be for me... that he lacks some drama; everything is in perfect control, and it sounds beautiful, but it just doesn't grab me as much.

    My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...

    I should also say that I really like Seefried now in Fricsay's DG as well; only unsure about Jurinac (will have to listen again).

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Feb 18 00:21:14 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 23:07:28 UTC+1:
    My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...

    After listening to parts of Mitropoulos' DG again yesterday... There are beautiful moments, but his conducting just doesn't work... too vulgar and too uncoordinated (the musical line gets disrupted too often); and also a bit too heavy. (Yes, I know I
    have said some of these things before, but I needed to reevaluate it - now I'm very sure).

    Favorite = Fricsay, Second favorite = Krips... will still have to decide between the two of them which I like more; leaning towards Fricsay at the moment.

    I don't think the others come close to these two recordings (Klemperer is interesting certainly, with a lot of beautiful singing, but I just don't like his concept)

    *I also have to take back a little bit of praises wrt Horenstein's B5; he screws up a lot imo (I don't like how he takes the beginning for example), but he has very beautiful moments as well, he seems to have very interesting ideas which just don't get
    fully realized or something; I like that he is lyrical as opposed to Szell who is very stiff; but he is no Mengelberg.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Feb 18 09:03:00 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 18. Februar 2023 um 09:21:17 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 23:07:28 UTC+1:
    My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...
    After listening to parts of Mitropoulos' DG again yesterday... There are beautiful moments, but his conducting just doesn't work... too vulgar and too uncoordinated (the musical line gets disrupted too often); and also a bit too heavy. (Yes, I know I
    have said some of these things before, but I needed to reevaluate it - now I'm very sure).

    Favorite = Fricsay, Second favorite = Krips... will still have to decide between the two of them which I like more; leaning towards Fricsay at the moment.

    I don't think the others come close to these two recordings (Klemperer is interesting certainly, with a lot of beautiful singing, but I just don't like his concept)

    *I also have to take back a little bit of praises wrt Horenstein's B5; he screws up a lot imo (I don't like how he takes the beginning for example), but he has very beautiful moments as well, he seems to have very interesting ideas which just don't get
    fully realized or something; I like that he is lyrical as opposed to Szell who is very stiff; but he is no Mengelberg.

    Fuck it... Krips is just too safe... way too safe... as he seemingly always is (in cosi, in serail, in Mozart PCs with Rubinstein, in Schubert, in Brahms PC with Rubinstein, in the Beethoven I heard)... it just floats along... where is the fun? I'd rate
    Klemperer's above Krips'; same with Busch's which I would probably rate above Klemperer's.

    With that said my favorite DG is Fricsay's.

    Fav Zauberflöte: Fricsay
    Fav Cosi: Karajan
    Fav DG: Fricsay
    Fav Nozze: Fricsay
    Fav Serai: Fricsay

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Feb 20 13:08:00 2023
    On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 9:03:03 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 18. Februar 2023 um 09:21:17 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 23:07:28 UTC+1:
    My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...
    After listening to parts of Mitropoulos' DG again yesterday... There are beautiful moments, but his conducting just doesn't work... too vulgar and too uncoordinated (the musical line gets disrupted too often); and also a bit too heavy. (Yes, I know I
    have said some of these things before, but I needed to reevaluate it - now I'm very sure).

    Favorite = Fricsay, Second favorite = Krips... will still have to decide between the two of them which I like more; leaning towards Fricsay at the moment.

    I don't think the others come close to these two recordings (Klemperer is interesting certainly, with a lot of beautiful singing, but I just don't like his concept)

    *I also have to take back a little bit of praises wrt Horenstein's B5; he screws up a lot imo (I don't like how he takes the beginning for example), but he has very beautiful moments as well, he seems to have very interesting ideas which just don't
    get fully realized or something; I like that he is lyrical as opposed to Szell who is very stiff; but he is no Mengelberg.
    Fuck it... Krips is just too safe... way too safe... as he seemingly always is (in cosi, in serail, in Mozart PCs with Rubinstein, in Schubert, in Brahms PC with Rubinstein, in the Beethoven I heard)... it just floats along... where is the fun? I'd
    rate Klemperer's above Krips'; same with Busch's which I would probably rate above Klemperer's.

    With that said my favorite DG is Fricsay's.

    Fav Zauberflöte: Fricsay
    Fav Cosi: Karajan
    Fav DG: Fricsay
    Fav Nozze: Fricsay
    Fav Serai: Fricsay

    Have you ever heard this MET performance?:

    "Ezio Pinza Zinka Milanov Bidu Sayao Don Giovanni excerpts (1943 live)"

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Feb 20 13:39:14 2023
    On Monday, February 20, 2023 at 1:35:35 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Monday, February 20, 2023 at 1:31:04 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 2:52:08 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as
    from what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy,
    nothing ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with
    Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
    (Y. upload):

    "Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"
    (Y. upload):

    "Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"
    Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?

    According to this:

    - ...Still, Giovanni is a conductor's opera; and it would be difficult to find better work than Busch's--so exciting.

    https://www.amazon.com/Don-Giovanni-Mozart/dp/B000026H58
    According to this:

    - Sadly, Don Giovanni is a conductor’s opera, and the Met’s new principal conductor Fabio Luisi simply was not prepared to replace the ailing James Levine.

    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/understudy

    According to this:

    - There is no doubt who the stars are in this Vienna State Opera production of 'Don Giovanni': the Vienna State Opera Orchestra (aka the Vienna Philharmonic) under Riccardo Muti. I have rarely heard such subtle, flexible orchestral support in what is,
    after all, generally considered a singer's opera, but one that has innumerable orchestral felicities.

    https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Pieczonka-Antonacci-Kirchschlager-dArcangelo/product-reviews/B0009F7G30

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Feb 20 13:31:01 2023
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 2:52:08 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as
    from what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy, nothing
    ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
    (Y. upload):

    "Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"
    (Y. upload):

    "Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"
    Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?

    According to this:

    - ...Still, Giovanni is a conductor's opera; and it would be difficult to find better work than Busch's--so exciting.

    https://www.amazon.com/Don-Giovanni-Mozart/dp/B000026H58

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Mon Feb 20 13:35:33 2023
    On Monday, February 20, 2023 at 1:31:04 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 2:52:08 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:33:11 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:27:28 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 1:02:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 09:53:49 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:48:23 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 07:21:35 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Samstag, 21. Januar 2023 um 05:58:27 UTC+1:
    Are the "very beautiful parts" the slow parts? Could slow tempi may be her forte as opposed to fast tempi?
    I wasn't actually talking about the singing when I said "I don't like the piece very much, even though there are very beautiful parts in it", but about the piece (her singing sounded fine).

    And yes, the "very beautiful parts" in this piece seem to be the slow parts (unrelated to her singing) - which seems to be generally true wrt Mozart's music - but I would have to listen again to say this with confidence.

    For example: I don't like the beginning very much; what I consider to be "very beautiful" starts at around minute 1:35, but then - maybe after 1:30 minutes - it takes a turn, and I don't like it anymore.

    What is this at minute 4:14? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpdZlwGTq8 "rrrrrrrrrrrt"-sound or something.

    I also can't say whether slow tempi might be her forte as opposed to fast tempi, as I'm not well enough acquainted with her (I don't have any experience whether she succeeds more in the slow parts than in the fast parts - to my ears, as
    from what I heard, she seems to succeed in both).
    WRT Krips' Don Giovanni (listened to bits of it again yesterday evening): fucking awful, completely uninvolved conducting (same goes for his Mozart Symphonies, Serail and what not and also the Schubert 9th I have heard), mellow, cozy,
    nothing ever happens - it's beautiful ofc, because Mozart's music is beautiful, but that's it. No competition for Fritz Busch who I think reigns supreme here, also I really can't deal with Klemperer's DG anymore, I just don't think his style works with
    Mozart.

    Beecham's Zauberflöte (listened a bit more to it yesterday, didn't have time for the whole), is actually really nice - will have to spend some more time with it.

    WRT Nozze: Still have to decide between Busch, Fricsay and Kleiber.

    WRT Serail: Still have to decide between Fricsay and Jochum - wasn't too impressed by Kertesz who I thought would be good here.

    WRT cosi: I am not as well acquainted with this piece as with the ones mentioned above... I hated Karajan (way too driven and no feeling for the music), Fritz Busch I haven't heard, and what I heard from Sawallisch wasn't too great.
    ((Y. upload):

    "DON GIOVANNI - Ezio Pinza, dir Bruno Walter, Met 1942 (Complete Opera Mozart)"
    Ofc I know about this, it's horrible. I complained about Fricsay's Zauberflöte being to driven, yet you recommend me the probably most driven DG recording in history (there is also a Karajan DG which is very driven thinking about it) ;D
    (Y. upload):

    "Ezio Pinza Elisabeth Rethberg Dino Borgioli Virgilio Lazzari Don Giovanni (1937 live, full opera)"
    (Y. upload):

    "Don Giovanni 20/1/1934 MetOpera (Pinza, Ponselle, List, Schipa, Müller, Lazzari - Serafin)"
    Could Don G. be a singers' opera as opposed to a conudctors' opera?

    According to this:

    - ...Still, Giovanni is a conductor's opera; and it would be difficult to find better work than Busch's--so exciting.

    https://www.amazon.com/Don-Giovanni-Mozart/dp/B000026H58

    According to this:

    - Sadly, Don Giovanni is a conductor’s opera, and the Met’s new principal conductor Fabio Luisi simply was not prepared to replace the ailing James Levine.

    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/understudy

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Feb 20 14:20:11 2023
    On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 12:21:17 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. Februar 2023 um 23:07:28 UTC+1:
    My 3 favorite DGs would be: 1) Fricsay 2) Mitropoulos and 3) Krips ... still going to listen a bit more before reaching a conclusion...
    After listening to parts of Mitropoulos' DG again yesterday... There are beautiful moments, but his conducting just doesn't work... too vulgar and too uncoordinated (the musical line gets disrupted too often); and also a bit too heavy. (Yes, I know I
    have said some of these things before, but I needed to reevaluate it - now I'm very sure).

    Favorite = Fricsay, Second favorite = Krips... will still have to decide between the two of them which I like more; leaning towards Fricsay at the moment.

    I don't think the others come close to these two recordings (Klemperer is interesting certainly, with a lot of beautiful singing, but I just don't like his concept)

    *I also have to take back a little bit of praises wrt Horenstein's B5; he screws up a lot imo (I don't like how he takes the beginning for example), but he has very beautiful moments as well, he seems to have very interesting ideas which just don't get
    fully realized or something; I like that he is lyrical as opposed to Szell who is very stiff; but he is no Mengelberg.

    Have you ever heard Breisach's MET performance?:

    "Ezio Pinza Zinka Milanov Bidu Sayao Don Giovanni excerpts (1943 live)"

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 24 00:36:49 2023
    Came back to say that I'm still trying to figure out which recordings of Mozart's Figaro, DG, Cosi and Zauberflöte I like best - I'm not too interested in Serail, but it's a funny opera.

    WRT cosi I'm very sure tbh... can only be Karajan.

    WRT Figaro it's more difficult. Fricsay is good, but Karajan 1974 (Freni etc) and Karajan 1977 (van Dam, Cotrubas etc) are also very good tbh. Karajan's 1950 Figaro is a bit too fast in places, but Schwarzkopf as the Countess is beautiful. Suitner is
    okay I guess... would have to listen to him again. The first three recordings I mentioned seem to be the best out here. I also don't like Gui too much. Or Rosbaud.

    WRT DG I guess it's between Klemperer and Fricsay for me; but I would have to relisten to some Karajan DGs. Busch's conducting is great, Brownlee is great, most of the cast actually is, I'm just not so sure about the women... Freni as Zerlina, or
    Seefried as Zerlina seem to impress me more than Mildmay as Zerlina.

    WRT Zauberflöte: Klemperer vs Fricsay (will have to relisten to Karajan's 1950 Figaro); oh my god does Rothenberger suck in Sawallisch's recording, oh my god does Peter Schreier suck as well.

    This is almost driving me crazy... solving the Riemann hypothesis seems to be an easier task than figuring out which Mozart opera recordings are the best.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Feb 24 08:30:34 2023
    On Friday, February 24, 2023 at 12:36:52 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    This is almost driving me crazy... solving the Riemann
    hypothesis seems to be an easier task than figuring
    out which Mozart opera recordings are the best.

    Then why not focus on solving Riemann's hypothesis
    instead of flooding r.m.c.r. with your hallucinations?

    You claimed to be a mathematician, didn't you? Prove
    you are one indeed!

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 25 01:05:36 2023
    I finally figured it out...

    Screw Fricsay (not only in Mozart, but generally)... I always had a problem with the texture he creates and some other stuff.

    Favourite Figaro: Karajan 1977 + Karajan 1950 (just for Schwarzkopf as the Countess; I don't like Tomowa-Sintow in the 1977 recording too much...)

    Favourite DG: Busch (Mildmay is fine actually, very beautiful; mea culpa. Would have to relisten to the other women, but they are probably fine as well) + Klemperer

    Favourite Cosi: Karajan

    Favourite Zauberflöte: Klemperer (I don't like the Karajan Zauberflöte recordings I heard)

    Finally...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 25 01:16:33 2023
    I should also add: Not so sure about Maag being one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really liked him only for how he takes the slow movement of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I need this recording as I do not like outer movements (
    which are connected to the slow movement - there are transitions, and the slow movement can't really be taken alone...)

    Favourite Mozart conductors: Busch (DG), Karajan (Nozze, Cosi), Klemperer (DG, Zauberflöte)

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Feb 25 01:53:36 2023
    On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 1:16:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    I should also add: Not so sure about Maag being
    one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really
    liked him only for how he takes the slow movement
    of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I
    need this recording as I do not like outer movements
    (which are connected to the slow movement - there
    are transitions, and the slow movement can't really
    be taken alone...)

    Do you ever hold an opinion for more than an hour?
    Except for political ones ofc.

    dk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Feb 25 19:44:37 2023
    On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 1:16:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    I should also add: Not so sure about Maag being one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really liked him only for how he takes the slow movement of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I need this recording as I do not like outer movements (
    which are connected to the slow movement - there are transitions, and the slow movement can't really be taken alone...)

    Favourite Mozart conductors: Busch (DG), Karajan (Nozze, Cosi), Klemperer (DG, Zauberflöte)

    https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/top-five-mozart-opera-recordings.48061/#post-1207724

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 26 10:10:48 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 25. Februar 2023 um 10:53:39 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 1:16:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    I should also add: Not so sure about Maag being
    one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really
    liked him only for how he takes the slow movement
    of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I
    need this recording as I do not like outer movements
    (which are connected to the slow movement - there
    are transitions, and the slow movement can't really
    be taken alone...)
    Do you ever hold an opinion for more than an hour?
    Except for political ones ofc.

    dk

    I already explained to you quite clearly the criteria that must be met for someone to be a favourite conductor of mine.

    I really have great respect for Maag - his texture, his articulation etc. (Very good in Mendelssohn as well if I remember correctly). So, in a sense he actually still is a favourite Mozart conductor of mine; but the problem is, that I don't think that he
    has made a reference recording of a piece I really like. The only piece that comes to my mind is Mozart's Symphony 32 (I am not too fond of the other Symphonies I heard; but he was good in some other Mozart stuff, it's just that I don't think I need the
    stuff - I also remember a very driven 467 with Argerich; should probably relisten).

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Sun Feb 26 09:50:51 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 04:44:40 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 1:16:36 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    I should also add: Not so sure about Maag being one of my favourite Mozart conductors... I really liked him only for how he takes the slow movement of Mozart's Symphony 32, but I'm not so sure if I need this recording as I do not like outer movements
    (which are connected to the slow movement - there are transitions, and the slow movement can't really be taken alone...)

    Favourite Mozart conductors: Busch (DG), Karajan (Nozze, Cosi), Klemperer (DG, Zauberflöte)
    https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/top-five-mozart-opera-recordings.48061/#post-1207724

    Sorry, I have to revise myself again after listening thoroughly to the Karajan DG recordings I mentioned. The reason I change my mind so often in such a short time is because I'm trying to bring closure to my endless search. I finally want to buy the
    records and that's why I want to be sure. And I am almost sure. If I find a record I like I compare it to a record I heard before and liked; I send the two recordings into a battle against each other. Right now I let the sounds of I don't know how many
    recordings fight against each other in my head; relistening to the records to make sure if what I heard was right etc, listening to the other record again to compare etc. No wonder I'm going crazy and changing my mind so often, it's fun, or at least it
    was... now I just want to figure out the hopefully last remaining questions.

    The thing with Karajan's Nozze (1977; the 1974 is utter shite - and 1950 is good for Schwarzkopf, some of the conducting and also maybe some of the other singers) vs Fricsay Nozze is this for me:

    Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much. Furthermore Karajan's singers are
    mostly horrible (especially Cherubino and Countess - talking about 1977, but 1974 is not too different) - Fricsay's singers are geniuses, Fricsay is such a great conductor, he makes it as if the singers were in a dialogue with the orchestra (same is true
    for Klemperer, and also Karajan's cosi); in general I am not too fond of Fricsay, but his nozze is just genius (his Beethoven 8 and 1 were also quite fine I think... will have to relisten). WRT Fricsay's DG: It's funny, etc... but... there is something
    missing... same for his Zauberflöte... I feel no "real" magic.


    Favourite Mozart conductors (determined by having made at least 1 recording of a favourite piece of mine that I consider a favourite):

    Fricsay (Nozze)
    Karajan (Cosi)
    Klemperer (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni)

    These are the records I need, and probably also Karajan's 1950 Nozze for Schwarzkopf (which I already ordered but I could send it back).

    WRT Busch: He is also really fun and great, and has magical moments - the problem is the sound. And tbh... Freni is just better than Mildmay, same for the other women I think...

    WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Feb 26 11:43:50 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 19:10:50 UTC+1:
    The only piece that comes to my mind is Mozart's Symphony 32 (I am not too fond of the other Symphonies I heard; but he

    *the other Mozart symphonies conducted by Maag; not Mozart symphonies in general.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Feb 26 12:18:10 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 18:50:54 UTC+1:
    Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much.

    I wasn't really paying too much attention when writing this; as I actually love the texture in Fricsay's Nozze, it's all beautiful as it is. Still I probably need Karajan's 1950 Nozze as well - Schwarzkopf (will decide this one tomorrow).

    What I meant to say with "Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay" was that I feel that Karajan is likely better for things like Strauss or Sibelius than Fricsay... I couldn't imagine Fricsay there... but maybe I'm wrong - don't care for
    Sibelius anyway; Strauss is much better, but I don't care for him either...

    WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.

    I think I'll keep this; the slow movement is just really beautiful.

    Fricsay (Nozze)

    Karajan (Cosi)

    Klemperer (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni)

    Maag (Symphony 32)

    These have all been ordered and Karajan's cosi is already in my hands (still sealed).

    Probably I'll need Serail as well... it's between Beecham and Fricsay and probably Randy was right half a year ago when he recommended me Beecham's Serail... I will have to relisten, but from what I remember I think the singers were much better than on
    Fricsay's recording (Hollweg vs Streich, Simoneau vs Haefliger etc); and the conducting was beautiful as well I think - makes me wonder why Beecham wasn't so good in Zauberflöte... anyway... this I will think about tomorrow.

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Feb 26 20:30:19 2023
    On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:18:13 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 18:50:54 UTC+1:
    Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much.
    I wasn't really paying too much attention when writing this; as I actually love the texture in Fricsay's Nozze, it's all beautiful as it is. Still I probably need Karajan's 1950 Nozze as well - Schwarzkopf (will decide this one tomorrow).

    What I meant to say with "Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay" was that I feel that Karajan is likely better for things like Strauss or Sibelius than Fricsay... I couldn't imagine Fricsay there... but maybe I'm wrong - don't care for
    Sibelius anyway; Strauss is much better, but I don't care for him either...
    WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.
    I think I'll keep this; the slow movement is just really beautiful.
    Fricsay (Nozze)

    Karajan (Cosi)

    Klemperer (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni)
    Maag (Symphony 32)

    These have all been ordered and Karajan's cosi is already in my hands (still sealed).

    Probably I'll need Serail as well... it's between Beecham and Fricsay and probably Randy was right half a year ago when he recommended me Beecham's Serail... I will have to relisten, but from what I remember I think the singers were much better than on
    Fricsay's recording (Hollweg vs Streich, Simoneau vs Haefliger etc); and the conducting was beautiful as well I think - makes me wonder why Beecham wasn't so good in Zauberflöte... anyway... this I will think about tomorrow.

    Good Lord, man. Maag's LSO Mozart 38 is one of the greats, in the same league as his Mendelssohn Scottish. unarguable!

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Feb 27 11:19:42 2023
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 27. Februar 2023 um 05:30:22 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:18:13 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 18:50:54 UTC+1:
    Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much.
    I wasn't really paying too much attention when writing this; as I actually love the texture in Fricsay's Nozze, it's all beautiful as it is. Still I probably need Karajan's 1950 Nozze as well - Schwarzkopf (will decide this one tomorrow).

    What I meant to say with "Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay" was that I feel that Karajan is likely better for things like Strauss or Sibelius than Fricsay... I couldn't imagine Fricsay there... but maybe I'm wrong - don't care for
    Sibelius anyway; Strauss is much better, but I don't care for him either...
    WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.
    I think I'll keep this; the slow movement is just really beautiful. Fricsay (Nozze)

    Karajan (Cosi)

    Klemperer (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni)
    Maag (Symphony 32)

    These have all been ordered and Karajan's cosi is already in my hands (still sealed).

    Probably I'll need Serail as well... it's between Beecham and Fricsay and probably Randy was right half a year ago when he recommended me Beecham's Serail... I will have to relisten, but from what I remember I think the singers were much better than
    on Fricsay's recording (Hollweg vs Streich, Simoneau vs Haefliger etc); and the conducting was beautiful as well I think - makes me wonder why Beecham wasn't so good in Zauberflöte... anyway... this I will think about tomorrow.
    Good Lord, man. Maag's LSO Mozart 38 is one of the greats, in the same league as his Mendelssohn Scottish. unarguable!

    Funny that you say this. I actually listened to Maag's Scottish today and was surprised how good it was, way better than I remembered haha - I'm mainly speaking about the Symphony in general, didn't remember it being so good. And while listening to it, I
    was asking myself why Maag's Mozart 38 wasn't as good (at least that's how I remember it) as his Mendelssohn Scottish. I'll relisten.

    BTW I ordered Beecham's Serail today; it's so good. Better than Fricsay's or Jochum's... I also think in a way Köth and Sterich are similar, a bit shrill; and I seem to like Beecham's cast more generally. Reri Grist is great as Blonde as well.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Feb 27 14:04:35 2023
    Bob Harper schrieb am Montag, 27. Februar 2023 um 05:30:22 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 12:18:13 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2023 um 18:50:54 UTC+1:
    Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay, but he cloaks many musical figures; the counterpoint of Mozart can be clearly heard in Fricsay's nozze, Karajan cloaks this much more, and he also smoothens out much.
    I wasn't really paying too much attention when writing this; as I actually love the texture in Fricsay's Nozze, it's all beautiful as it is. Still I probably need Karajan's 1950 Nozze as well - Schwarzkopf (will decide this one tomorrow).

    What I meant to say with "Karajan has a better sense for texture than Fricsay" was that I feel that Karajan is likely better for things like Strauss or Sibelius than Fricsay... I couldn't imagine Fricsay there... but maybe I'm wrong - don't care for
    Sibelius anyway; Strauss is much better, but I don't care for him either...
    WRT Maag: The cd (Decca with Symphony 32 etc) is already on the way, and I'm actually kicking my ass for ordering it... maybe I'll change my mind.
    I think I'll keep this; the slow movement is just really beautiful. Fricsay (Nozze)

    Karajan (Cosi)

    Klemperer (Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni)
    Maag (Symphony 32)

    These have all been ordered and Karajan's cosi is already in my hands (still sealed).

    Probably I'll need Serail as well... it's between Beecham and Fricsay and probably Randy was right half a year ago when he recommended me Beecham's Serail... I will have to relisten, but from what I remember I think the singers were much better than
    on Fricsay's recording (Hollweg vs Streich, Simoneau vs Haefliger etc); and the conducting was beautiful as well I think - makes me wonder why Beecham wasn't so good in Zauberflöte... anyway... this I will think about tomorrow.
    Good Lord, man. Maag's LSO Mozart 38 is one of the greats, in the same league as his Mendelssohn Scottish. unarguable!

    Okay, it is wery good.

    I think at the time I listened I was still too much into Klemperer's Mozart Symphonies for Maag's to click with me; his 38 was my favourite for a long time, but I stopped listening to it, because there were moments I just didn't like too much... and I
    just turned to other things. I think Klemperer is special with Don Giovanni (EMI) and Zauberflöte (EMI), but I'm honestly not so sure about the Mozart Symphonies etc.

    I'll probably need Maag's 38 as well.

    On a side note: I listened to bits of Argerich and Maag in 467; I don't know... I think Argerich really is just not good in Mozart as I already said; only in KV 503 I sort of like her (would probably need to relisten... but from what I remember it just
    didn't feel right in the end.) - Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Feb 27 16:35:12 2023
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.

    Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 27 17:37:12 2023
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.

    Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Feb 28 09:19:48 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 02:37:15 UTC+1:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.

    Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw

    dk

    Just listened to this again after years and ya, this might be the best out there... would have to compare to Gieseking again. The problem for me with Gieseking and even more with Schnabel is that they sometimes sound driven; otoh they are still better
    than all the pianists that recorded it that don't sound driven to my ears. YES is good I guess... but hmmm... Geza is certainly better - Gieseking and Schnabel as well. If I remember correctly, YES is probably better than Gulda (2x), Gilels (2x), Pollini,
    Argerich, Perahia, Schiff, Pires, Uchida, Kempff, Serkin and some others I can't think of right now... such as Rubinstein... and Ashkenazy...

    The only record I can think of that Gilels really rocks in is Brahms piano quartet 1... (remember I only like a handful of composers) - can't believe there was a time I liked his Mozart... I remember like 2-3 years ago maybe I really liked him in the
    live Mozart with his daughter and Ovchinnikov (365, 595)... horrible lol.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Feb 28 14:11:06 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 22:58:36 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 18:19:51 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 02:37:15 UTC+1:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.

    Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw

    dk
    Just listened to this again after years and ya, this might be the best out there... would have to compare to Gieseking again. The problem for me with Gieseking and even more with Schnabel is that they sometimes sound driven
    Just listened to the outer movements of Gieseking in 467 again; he is genius and he keeps the musical line, not driven at all; it's the orchestra that's at times too vulgar, driven and not keeping the musical line... what a pity. In the end Anda is my
    favourite as he is genius here too and the orchestra is superb as well.

    There is also a live version of 467 with Anda and Karajan I just realized - Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano... just listened to bits of it, but the one with Anda as the soloist and conductor is much more magical (not sure if the
    Karajan version even qualifies as being magical, and I'm not interested finding out as it doesn't come close to the other version).

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Feb 28 13:58:33 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 18:19:51 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 02:37:15 UTC+1:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.

    Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw

    dk
    Just listened to this again after years and ya, this might be the best out there... would have to compare to Gieseking again. The problem for me with Gieseking and even more with Schnabel is that they sometimes sound driven

    Just listened to the outer movements of Gieseking in 467 again; he is genius and he keeps the musical line, not driven at all; it's the orchestra that's at times too vulgar, driven and not keeping the musical line... what a pity. In the end Anda is my
    favourite as he is genius here too and the orchestra is superb as well.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Feb 28 14:18:44 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 23:11:09 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 22:58:36 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 18:19:51 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2023 um 02:37:15 UTC+1:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 4:35:15 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:04:38 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Gieseking is my favourite in 467, so good.

    Only Geza can make it sound like a movie.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKW37ZZeFw

    dk
    Just listened to this again after years and ya, this might be the best out there... would have to compare to Gieseking again. The problem for me with Gieseking and even more with Schnabel is that they sometimes sound driven
    Just listened to the outer movements of Gieseking in 467 again; he is genius and he keeps the musical line, not driven at all; it's the orchestra that's at times too vulgar, driven and not keeping the musical line... what a pity. In the end Anda is
    my favourite as he is genius here too and the orchestra is superb as well.
    There is also a live version of 467 with Anda and Karajan I just realized - Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano... just listened to bits of it, but the one with Anda as the soloist and conductor is much more magical (not sure if the
    Karajan version even qualifies as being magical, and I'm not interested finding out as it doesn't come close to the other version).

    It's better than YES at least - maybe even than Gieseking and Schnabel (especially wrt orchestra). So probably magical, but I've found my favourite version.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 2 09:13:21 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
    Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
    leaving out newer singers in my consideration):

    Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
    Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone

    These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...
    Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
    favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
    are OK, tough not great.

    How about Pierrette Alarie?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL7fEqIxW20

    I guess my favourite Mozart singers are:

    Alarie, Berger, Hallstein probably as well thinking about it, Ludwig, Otto, Grist, Schwarzkopf, probably Seefried as well, Gueden too, but Stader is also not bad... maybe also Moffo (I should relisten to her Susanna on Giulini's recording... I am
    actually still wondering whether it is not better than Fricsay's)

    Simoneau, Berry, Ghiaruov, Wunderlich, Siepi, maybe Frick (but not in Klemperer's Zauberflöte), John Brownlee, probably also Greindl, Unger... hmmmm and probably a few more.


    My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
    leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
    sing and hold C8!

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 09:28:54 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:28:04 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:13:23 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
    Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
    leaving out newer singers in my consideration):

    Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
    Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone

    These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...
    Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
    favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
    are OK, tough not great.

    How about Pierrette Alarie?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL7fEqIxW20

    I guess my favourite Mozart singers are:

    Alarie, Berger, Hallstein probably as well thinking about it, Ludwig, Otto, Grist, Schwarzkopf, probably Seefried as well, Gueden too, but Stader is also not bad... maybe also Moffo (I should relisten to her Susanna on Giulini's recording... I am
    actually still wondering whether it is not better than Fricsay's)
    Listening again to Alarie I have to pass (listened to it yesterday night and thought it wasn't bad)... no.... she is also kind of shrill sometimes. Streich is probably better than her.

    Simoneau, Berry, Ghiaruov, Wunderlich, Siepi, maybe Frick (but not in Klemperer's Zauberflöte), John Brownlee, probably also Greindl, Unger... hmmmm and probably a few more.
    WRT Wunderlich as Belmonte:
    The problem with Wunderlich as Belmonte in Jochum's Serail (besides the somewhat restrained conducting) is that he seems to have a too strong voice for the role of Belmonte, like from the get go, as soon as you hear him, you hear a guy that leaves no
    doubts about whether he will finish the job or not; and for example in "Wenn der Freude Tränen fliessen", I think that Simoneau sings to himself - it's so beautiful, and Wunderlich sings to the outside... not sure if he works as Belmonte, besides the
    beautiful singing ofc.


    My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
    leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
    sing and hold C8!

    dk

    *Forgot Freni

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 09:27:26 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:13:23 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Mittwoch, 1. Februar 2023 um 08:26:35 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Thinking about it there seem to be two types of voices in
    Mozart operas (in reality it's ofc more complex and I'm
    leaving out newer singers in my consideration):

    Say for Zerlina: Berger, Streich, Stader and Freni, della
    Casa, Gueden on the other side - lighter vs darker tone

    These are probably my favorite singers actually wrt Mozart...
    Erna Berger and Ingeborg Hallstein leave your other
    favorite singers in the toilet. Della Casa and Streich
    are OK, tough not great.

    How about Pierrette Alarie?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL7fEqIxW20

    I guess my favourite Mozart singers are:

    Alarie, Berger, Hallstein probably as well thinking about it, Ludwig, Otto, Grist, Schwarzkopf, probably Seefried as well, Gueden too, but Stader is also not bad... maybe also Moffo (I should relisten to her Susanna on Giulini's recording... I am
    actually still wondering whether it is not better than Fricsay's)

    Listening again to Alarie I have to pass (listened to it yesterday night and thought it wasn't bad)... no.... she is also kind of shrill sometimes. Streich is probably better than her.


    Simoneau, Berry, Ghiaruov, Wunderlich, Siepi, maybe Frick (but not in Klemperer's Zauberflöte), John Brownlee, probably also Greindl, Unger... hmmmm and probably a few more.

    WRT Wunderlich as Belmonte:
    The problem with Wunderlich as Belmonte in Jochum's Serail (besides the somewhat restrained conducting) is that he seems to have a too strong voice for the role of Belmonte, like from the get go, as soon as you hear him, you hear a guy that leaves no
    doubts about whether he will finish the job or not; and for example in "Wenn der Freude Tränen fliessen", I think that Simoneau sings to himself - it's so beautiful, and Wunderlich sings to the outside... not sure if he works as Belmonte, besides the
    beautiful singing ofc.



    My black coloraturas Meow Li Bran and Meow Li Sza
    leave all human supranos in the dust. They can both
    sing and hold C8!

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 09:36:20 2023
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...

    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 2 10:30:15 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    dk

    I think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a bit
    more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3 of
    1963 is a favourite of mine (I think I like it more probably than Bernstein, Szell, Kleiber, Scherchen, Celibidache, Furtwängler, Walter, Klemperer etc.) - the problem with Mengelberg is the sound for me. 1950+ (maybe late forties) is okay I guess, and
    maybe piano only recordings from before.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 10:38:42 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 19:30:18 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    dk
    I think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a bit
    more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3 of
    1963 is a favourite of mine (I think I like it more probably than Bernstein, Szell, Kleiber, Scherchen, Celibidache, Furtwängler, Walter, Klemperer etc.) - the problem with Mengelberg is the sound for me. 1950+ (maybe late forties) is okay I guess, and
    maybe piano only recordings from before.

    His accompaniment of Gould in the Beethoven PC 3 I also remember fondly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 11:10:35 2023
    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    dk
    I think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a bit
    more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3 of
    1963 is a favourite of mine (I think I like it more probably than Bernstein, Szell, Kleiber, Scherchen, Celibidache, Furtwängler, Walter, Klemperer etc.) - the problem with Mengelberg is the sound for me. 1950+ (maybe late forties) is okay I guess, and
    maybe piano only recordings from before.

    Have you ever heard Gedda's 2 Serails?:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=gedda+abduction&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=657&ei=RvQAZJWEC7DBkPIP6eSX0AE&iflsig=AK50M_UAAAAAZAECVoZyElHiVSSfku9WeAC-1HmgL7Ll&ved=0ahUKEwiVv8_6-L39AhWwIEQIHWnyBRoQ4dUDCAc&uact=5&oq=gedda+abduction&gs_lcp=
    CgNpbWcQAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEELEDOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToGCAAQBRAeOgYIABAIEB46CQgAEIAEEAoQGDoHCAAQgAQQGFAAWKMxYJ0zaAFwAHgAgAFliAGQCJIBBDE1LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZw&sclient=img

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 11:10:09 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 19:30:18 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    dk
    I think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a bit
    more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3 of
    1963 is a favourite of mine (I think I like it more probably than Bernstein, Szell, Kleiber, Scherchen, Celibidache, Furtwängler, Walter, Klemperer etc.) - the problem with Mengelberg is the sound for me. 1950+ (maybe late forties) is okay I guess, and
    maybe piano only recordings from before.

    Actually maybe Giulini's Figaro is orchestrally more similar to Karajan's Cosi than Fricsay's Serail or Zauberflöte (I have to listen to his Figaro again and compare it t Giulini's...)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 2 12:30:44 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:26:42 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...

    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    I think he has a good idea of texture,
    Texture makes fine suits.

    Ask Celibidache - the king of textures.


    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 12:26:39 2023
    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...

    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    I think he has a good idea of texture,

    Texture makes fine suits.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Mar 2 12:25:05 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 20:10:38 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...
    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    dk
    I think he has a good idea of texture, and I guess there are some more reference recordings of his besides the Cosi fan tutte that I love; I wonder if it's the Philharmonia Orchestra that is so good, haha - and I think his style works here, it's a
    bit more "gemütlich" maybe than Klemperer, Fricsay or Giulini, a bit similar to Beecham's Serail maybe, orchestrally - Fricsay is just too harsh and driven for me in Serail, and also Zauberflöte and DG... Thinking about it, maybe Karajan's Beethoven 3
    of 1963 is a favourite of mine (I think I like it more probably than Bernstein, Szell, Kleiber, Scherchen, Celibidache, Furtwängler, Walter, Klemperer etc.) - the problem with Mengelberg is the sound for me. 1950+ (maybe late forties) is okay I guess,
    and maybe piano only recordings from before.
    Have you ever heard Gedda's 2 Serails?:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=gedda+abduction&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=657&ei=RvQAZJWEC7DBkPIP6eSX0AE&iflsig=AK50M_UAAAAAZAECVoZyElHiVSSfku9WeAC-1HmgL7Ll&ved=0ahUKEwiVv8_6-L39AhWwIEQIHWnyBRoQ4dUDCAc&uact=5&oq=gedda+abduction&gs_lcp=
    CgNpbWcQAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEELEDOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToGCAAQBRAeOgYIABAIEB46CQgAEIAEEAoQGDoHCAAQgAQQGFAAWKMxYJ0zaAFwAHgAgAFliAGQCJIBBDE1LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZw&sclient=img

    I rather not, but thank you for mentioning - because of Menuhin; I don't trust his conducting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 12:35:21 2023
    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:30:46 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:26:42 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...

    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    I think he has a good idea of texture,

    Texture makes fine suits.

    Ask Celibidache - the king of textures.

    https://slippedisc.com/2018/04/where-herbert-von-karajan-got-his-high-heels/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 2 12:37:31 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:24 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 12:30:46 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:26:42 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 10:30:18 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 18:36:23 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 2:11:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    Karajan not as good as Anda conducting from the piano...

    What a surprise! Karajan was a stuffed suit.

    I think he has a good idea of texture,

    Texture makes fine suits.

    Ask Celibidache - the king of textures.
    https://slippedisc.com/2018/04/where-herbert-von-karajan-got-his-high-heels/

    who cares, and Celibidache had golden necklaces... please

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 2 12:35:30 2023
    I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return Fricsay's
    Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 12:43:43 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
    I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return Fricsay's
    Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...

    In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...

    but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 2 23:02:50 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
    I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return Fricsay's
    Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
    In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...

    but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.

    Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings. I should
    check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).

    I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).

    The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I listened to
    the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.

    This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 3 01:17:03 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 08:02:54 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
    I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return Fricsay'
    s Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
    In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...

    but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.
    Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings. I
    should check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).

    I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).

    Okay, forget what I said - I just compared Böhm (1962) to Karajan again (partly) and I just like Karajan more (I also like the singers more in Karajan's recording generally)... he is also really good orchestrally here imo.

    So I'll keep his Cosi for sure, and his Nozze (1950) maybe as well in addition to Giulini's - I don't think Böhm's will be as good as Giulini's (I'll listen later when I have time again; as well as his 1955 Cosi).


    The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I listened
    to the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.

    Böhm and Krips are great, but I don't find them as special as the ones I mentioned; and in a way Böhm and Krips are similar in their approach I think (having in mind specifically: Krips' DG and Böhm's Cosi 1962) - gemütlich. Karajan surely is not as
    gemütlich as they are; not saying that gemütlich is always bad, but sometimes a bit more fire would not hurt. Still I rate Böhms and Krips very highly (top 3-5 in the recordings I mentioned probably). I really do not like Kuijken, Harnoncourt,
    Gardiner and other hipsters.


    This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.

    God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.

    Serail: Beecham
    Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
    DG: Klemperer
    Cosi: Karajan
    Zauberflöte: Klemperer

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 3 07:36:18 2023
    On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 08:02:54 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
    I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return
    Fricsay's Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
    In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...

    but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.
    Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings. I
    should check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).

    I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).
    Okay, forget what I said - I just compared Böhm (1962) to Karajan again (partly) and I just like Karajan more (I also like the singers more in Karajan's recording generally)... he is also really good orchestrally here imo.

    So I'll keep his Cosi for sure, and his Nozze (1950) maybe as well in addition to Giulini's - I don't think Böhm's will be as good as Giulini's (I'll listen later when I have time again; as well as his 1955 Cosi).

    The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I
    listened to the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.
    Böhm and Krips are great, but I don't find them as special as the ones I mentioned; and in a way Böhm and Krips are similar in their approach I think (having in mind specifically: Krips' DG and Böhm's Cosi 1962) - gemütlich. Karajan surely is not
    as gemütlich as they are; not saying that gemütlich is always bad, but sometimes a bit more fire would not hurt. Still I rate Böhms and Krips very highly (top 3-5 in the recordings I mentioned probably). I really do not like Kuijken, Harnoncourt,
    Gardiner and other hipsters.

    This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.
    God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.

    Serail: Beecham
    Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
    DG: Klemperer
    Cosi: Karajan
    Zauberflöte: Klemperer

    Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Mar 3 10:00:04 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:
    Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...

    I also like George London on Karajan's recording very much btw.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Fri Mar 3 09:38:41 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:
    On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 08:02:54 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
    I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return
    Fricsay's Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
    In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...

    but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.
    Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings. I
    should check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).

    I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).
    Okay, forget what I said - I just compared Böhm (1962) to Karajan again (partly) and I just like Karajan more (I also like the singers more in Karajan's recording generally)... he is also really good orchestrally here imo.

    So I'll keep his Cosi for sure, and his Nozze (1950) maybe as well in addition to Giulini's - I don't think Böhm's will be as good as Giulini's (I'll listen later when I have time again; as well as his 1955 Cosi).

    The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I
    listened to the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.
    Böhm and Krips are great, but I don't find them as special as the ones I mentioned; and in a way Böhm and Krips are similar in their approach I think (having in mind specifically: Krips' DG and Böhm's Cosi 1962) - gemütlich. Karajan surely is not
    as gemütlich as they are; not saying that gemütlich is always bad, but sometimes a bit more fire would not hurt. Still I rate Böhms and Krips very highly (top 3-5 in the recordings I mentioned probably). I really do not like Kuijken, Harnoncourt,
    Gardiner and other hipsters.

    This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.
    God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.

    Serail: Beecham
    Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
    DG: Klemperer
    Cosi: Karajan
    Zauberflöte: Klemperer
    Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...

    Okay, I'll look into it; I think i never heard this opera.

    It seems as if you are trying to get me into Strauss ignoring my earlier statements. Thinking about it, there are things I really like about him; Reiner's Elektra recording (excerpts) is very beautiful, same for his Salome recording (excerpts) and also
    this with Karajan + Welitsch - Salome final scene:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIENdKe9yE4

    After Mozart probably Strauss made my favourite operas... and Berg is great too, it's just not somethign I can listen to often. I really don't feel much listening to the italian operas... or french or russian or czech

    Should maybe try fidelio again.

    And ofc I like Celibidache in "Till Eulenspiegel"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 3 09:51:02 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 18:38:44 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:
    On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 08:02:54 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:43:46 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 2. März 2023 um 21:35:32 UTC+1:
    I should say, I'm done with Fricsay's Nozze, and with Fricsay generally (as I said earlier, but I'm very confident now); It's either Karajan (with Schwarzkopf and Seefried) for me, or Giulini with Schwarzkopf and Moffo - gladly I can return
    Fricsay's Nozze or Karajan's which I already ordered...
    In this case I'm actually wondering whether I should keep both, ya, probably - Giulini and Karajan I mean; and maybe I should also relisten to Wunderlich in Jochum... and compare it to Simoneau in Beecham...

    but ya, I'll probably keep Giulini and Karajan.
    Okay... after spending some time last night with Böhm's Cosi (1955 and 1962), I think I have to say I like it more than Karajan's - Karajan is really rushed too often without a sense for phrasing... And the cast is brilliant in both recordings.
    I should check out his Nozzes again as well; Karajan goes back for sure (his cosi and nozze).

    I discarded Böhm years ago because I was looking for something else back then I guess... but he is actually very good (maybe not in the symphonies as far as I remember, but in Cosi he definitely is).
    Okay, forget what I said - I just compared Böhm (1962) to Karajan again (partly) and I just like Karajan more (I also like the singers more in Karajan's recording generally)... he is also really good orchestrally here imo.

    So I'll keep his Cosi for sure, and his Nozze (1950) maybe as well in addition to Giulini's - I don't think Böhm's will be as good as Giulini's (I'll listen later when I have time again; as well as his 1955 Cosi).

    The thing is, I don't like to buy stuff that I don't "use"; everytime I would listen to Karajan's Cosi, I'd probably think about now Böhm's is better - at least that's the way it has been with Klemperer's Zauberflöte and his DG; everytime I
    listened to the other recordings of DG (Krips is very good btw), I wanted to go back to Klemperer's - the atmosphere etc just sucks me in.
    Böhm and Krips are great, but I don't find them as special as the ones I mentioned; and in a way Böhm and Krips are similar in their approach I think (having in mind specifically: Krips' DG and Böhm's Cosi 1962) - gemütlich. Karajan surely is
    not as gemütlich as they are; not saying that gemütlich is always bad, but sometimes a bit more fire would not hurt. Still I rate Böhms and Krips very highly (top 3-5 in the recordings I mentioned probably). I really do not like Kuijken, Harnoncourt,
    Gardiner and other hipsters.

    This experience was really illuminating for me. I never really listened to the voices in operas, at least not as intently as I did in the last couple of weeks, I more or less noticed them only when they bugged me.
    God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.

    Serail: Beecham
    Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
    DG: Klemperer
    Cosi: Karajan
    Zauberflöte: Klemperer
    Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...
    Okay, I'll look into it; I think i never heard this opera.

    It seems as if you are trying to get me into Strauss ignoring my earlier statements. Thinking about it, there are things I really like about him; Reiner's Elektra recording (excerpts) is very beautiful, same for his Salome recording (excerpts) and also
    this with Karajan + Welitsch - Salome final scene:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIENdKe9yE4

    After Mozart probably Strauss made my favourite operas... and Berg is great too, it's just not somethign I can listen to often. I really don't feel much listening to the italian operas... or french or russian or czech

    Should maybe try fidelio again.

    And ofc I like Celibidache in "Till Eulenspiegel"

    no... after listenign to the Salome final scence again, I know again why I don't like Strauss... I think he is interesting, but he just doesn't really grab me. Maybe I'll try ariadne one day, but I think not...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 3 10:02:59 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 19:02:16 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 19:00:06 UTC+1:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:
    Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...
    I also like George London on Karajan's recording very much btw.
    And Kunz.

    And Jurinac I liked as well as far as I remember in contrast to her on Fricsay's recording.

    Should probably keep it... but will have to listen later again; and keep Giulini as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 3 13:29:48 2023
    Thinking about it, I was too nice with Böhm and Krips saying top5 wrt Cosi (Böhm) and DG (Krips)... they are both incredibly boring (generally)... the singers are great, but how can you be so fucking boring...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Mar 4 03:48:49 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 22:29:50 UTC+1:
    Thinking about it, I was too nice with Böhm and Krips saying top5 wrt Cosi (Böhm) and DG (Krips)... they are both incredibly boring (generally)... the singers are great, but how can you be so fucking boring...

    Just realized Giulini sucks in Nozze... his conducting as well as most of the singers. I also do not like Anna Moffo.

    I guess my favourite recording of Nozze is Karajan's 1950 recording of it. Thinking about it, I'd probably rate Fricsay and Böhm (1957 Nozze) above Giulini's recording of nozze.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Mar 8 00:03:23 2023
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:
    On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.

    Serail: Beecham
    Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
    DG: Klemperer
    Cosi: Karajan
    Zauberflöte: Klemperer

    Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...

    I've been relistening to some Strauss operas over the last nights; Sawallisch's "Die Frau ohne Schatten", Karajan's "Elektra" and "Ariadne on Naxos", parts of Sawallisch's "Arabella", and also Fritz Reiner's Salome excerpts recording.

    I just don't feel much. I'd rate Berg's Wozzeck above any of them. And I'd also rate Wagner operas above Strauss' - there are parts that actually grab me... The problem with Wagner operas for me is that the stories are meant seriously... I just can't
    take the stories seriosuly, and I also hate these "triumphant" parts, these parts where the music wants you to feel glorious, like "The Entry of Gods into Valhalla". I feel similarily about the 4th movement of Beethoven's 5th Symphony. These moments seem
    to lack in contemplation/reflection.

    I really love the beginning of Siegfried for example; but then I hate what Siegfried sings about...

    BTW: Erna Berger sucks imo.

    Finally:
    My favourite Mozart opera recordings are definitely:

    Serail: Beecham
    Nozze: Karajan (1950)
    DG: Klemperer
    Cosi: Karajan
    Zauberflöte: Klemperer

    They all arrived savely, and I'm happy like a little kid to have them haha. Haven't bought records/cds in ages.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Aditi Sharma@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Mar 12 21:19:59 2023
    On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 1:33:25 PM UTC+5:30, Marc S wrote:
    gggg gggg schrieb am Freitag, 3. März 2023 um 16:36:21 UTC+1:
    On Friday, March 3, 2023 at 1:17:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    God... finding my favourite recordings in these operas was not easy, and kind of stressful (listening to all these recordings in such a short amount of time and digesting it...)... but it was also fun.

    Serail: Beecham
    Nozze: Giulini (and probably Karajan 1950s - I really like Seefried and Schwarzkopf here, and I also like London)
    DG: Klemperer
    Cosi: Karajan
    Zauberflöte: Klemperer

    Seefried and Schwarzkopf were also on Karajan's ARIADNE...
    I've been relistening to some Strauss operas over the last nights; Sawallisch's "Die Frau ohne Schatten", Karajan's "Elektra" and "Ariadne on Naxos", parts of Sawallisch's "Arabella", and also Fritz Reiner's Salome excerpts recording.

    I just don't feel much. I'd rate Berg's Wozzeck above any of them. And I'd also rate Wagner operas above Strauss' - there are parts that actually grab me... The problem with Wagner operas for me is that the stories are meant seriously... I just can't
    take the stories seriosuly, and I also hate these "triumphant" parts, these parts where the music wants you to feel glorious, like "The Entry of Gods into Valhalla". I feel similarily about the 4th movement of Beethoven's 5th Symphony. These moments seem
    to lack in contemplation/reflection.

    I really love the beginning of Siegfried for example; but then I hate what Siegfried sings about...

    BTW: Erna Berger sucks imo.

    Finally:
    My favourite Mozart opera recordings are definitely:

    Serail: Beecham
    Nozze: Karajan (1950)
    DG: Klemperer
    Cosi: Karajan
    Zauberflöte: Klemperer
    They all arrived savely, and I'm happy like a little kid to have them haha. Haven't bought records/cds in ages.
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