• Re: Rene Jacob's Schubert

    From Herman@21:1/5 to andrewc...@gmail.com on Thu Oct 20 03:14:48 2022
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:55:47 AM UTC+2, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
    In some corner of a foreign thread, Herman asked my opinion of René Jacobs and the B’Rock Orchestra playing the Schubert Great C Major and the Unfinished.

    Did I?
    After all the indignation I checked a minute of the Hurwitz video, and it is indeed problematic.
    Not just the way the HIP mvt is declared dead and unnecessary - is it really the only way to gather clicks, repeatedly declaring CM or a subgroup of CM is dead? It's the Lebrecht model of trying for relevance at the expense of one's sublect.
    However when DH starts talking about Jacobs (whom I do not know) as a gorilla or something jumping up and down for attention, the projection factor became too overwhelming.
    If there's anyone flapping his arms frantically and making weird noises so as to capture the viewer's attention it's DH.
    Unfortunately I have not heard the Jacobs Schubert. I read that he wrote a long 'blow by blow' account of the music in the booklet, which seems a very bad idea.

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 20 02:55:45 2022
    In some corner of a foreign thread, Herman asked my opinion of René Jacobs and the B’Rock Orchestra playing the Schubert Great C Major and the Unfinished. I did listen to Big D's tirade, but unusually I didn't buy the recording immediately, as I
    claimed I had done, but listened and relistened to the individual movements which at that time were available on You Tube.
    I still haven't bought any of this Schubert cycle, having other interests at the moment, but probably will. To me these recordings fall into the category of 'interesting' but to Mr D they can't be interesting because they are stupid.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    "Make way for the fabulous Mr D,
    We're sure that you're all gonna be
    Enjoying every minute,
    So listen and he'll spin it,
    He's the fabulous (thump, thump) Mr Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

    - promotional jingle for Radio 3UZ DJ Don Lunn, Melbourne, 1960s.

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  • From Gerard@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 20 12:44:36 2022
    Op 2022-10-20 om 12:14 schreef Herman:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:55:47 AM UTC+2, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
    In some corner of a foreign thread, Herman asked my opinion of René Jacobs and the B’Rock Orchestra playing the Schubert Great C Major and the Unfinished.

    Did I?
    After all the indignation I checked a minute of the Hurwitz video, and it is indeed problematic.
    Not just the way the HIP mvt is declared dead and unnecessary - is it really the only way to gather clicks, repeatedly declaring CM or a subgroup of CM is dead? It's the Lebrecht model of trying for relevance at the expense of one's sublect.
    However when DH starts talking about Jacobs (whom I do not know) as a gorilla or something jumping up and down for attention, the projection factor became too overwhelming.
    If there's anyone flapping his arms frantically and making weird noises so as to capture the viewer's attention it's DH.
    Unfortunately I have not heard the Jacobs Schubert. I read that he wrote a long 'blow by blow' account of the music in the booklet, which seems a very bad idea.


    Maybe you didn't ask such an opinion. But I did.
    So thanks Andrew.

    I have one of the Schubert discs with Jacobs (with symphonies 1 & 6),
    but i have not yet really listened to it.

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  • From Oscar@21:1/5 to Todd M. McComb on Thu Oct 20 10:10:39 2022
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 9:30:21 AM, Todd M. McComb wrote:

    Ha, well, the discussion wasn't very interesting to me, but I can't
    see how it's harmful.... I certainly prefer the listening to the
    reading here, though.

    Glad you like it McComb! I have listened to the 9th & 8th CD four or five times now. It is solid, but especially the 9th.

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  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to herstx@yahoo.com on Thu Oct 20 16:30:17 2022
    In article <b658b26a-9eff-4d46-96e0-02bec3a1e7a5n@googlegroups.com>,
    Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
    I read that he wrote a long 'blow by blow' account of the music
    in the booklet, which seems a very bad idea.

    Ha, well, the discussion wasn't very interesting to me, but I can't
    see how it's harmful.... I certainly prefer the listening to the
    reading here, though.

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  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to oscaredwardwilliamson@gmail.com on Thu Oct 20 19:39:31 2022
    In article <0d27416f-30cc-44aa-a013-aa7a8031cd86n@googlegroups.com>,
    Oscar <oscaredwardwilliamson@gmail.com> wrote:
    Glad you like it McComb! I have listened to the 9th & 8th CD four
    or five times now. It is solid, but especially the 9th.

    Yes, I was just queueing up the "Great" again when reading this,
    the 6th time I think. I've listened to the Unfinished twice, and
    appreciate that performance too (although I'm ready to omit the
    text readings from here on...). I've never managed to have favorite
    readings of these works, but this release is sounding very "right"
    so far....

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Herman on Thu Oct 20 13:51:48 2022
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 3:14:51 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:55:47 AM UTC+2, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
    In some corner of a foreign thread, Herman asked my opinion of René Jacobs and the B’Rock Orchestra playing the Schubert Great C Major and the Unfinished.
    Did I?
    After all the indignation I checked a minute of the Hurwitz video, and it is indeed problematic.
    Not just the way the HIP mvt is declared dead and unnecessary - is it really the only way to gather clicks, repeatedly declaring CM or a subgroup of CM is dead? It's the Lebrecht model of trying for relevance at the expense of one's sublect...

    - History repeats itself, but the special call of an art which has passed away is never reproduced. It is utterly gone out of the world as the song of a destroyed wild bird. (Joseph Conrad)

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Oct 20 13:56:34 2022
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 1:51:51 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:

    - History repeats itself, but the special call of an
    art which has passed away is never reproduced.
    It is utterly gone out of the world as the song of
    a destroyed wild bird. (Joseph Conrad)

    You must obviosly be a retired English teacher.
    No other thing could possibly quote Conrad.

    dk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Oct 20 14:05:04 2022
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 1:51:51 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 3:14:51 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:55:47 AM UTC+2, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
    In some corner of a foreign thread, Herman asked my opinion of René Jacobs and the B’Rock Orchestra playing the Schubert Great C Major and the Unfinished.
    Did I?
    After all the indignation I checked a minute of the Hurwitz video, and it is indeed problematic.
    Not just the way the HIP mvt is declared dead and unnecessary - is it really the only way to gather clicks, repeatedly declaring CM or a subgroup of CM is dead? It's the Lebrecht model of trying for relevance at the expense of one's sublect...

    - History repeats itself, but the special call of an art which has passed away is never reproduced. It is utterly gone out of the world as the song of a destroyed wild bird. (Joseph Conrad)

    Does this also apply to HIP?:

    - No, it is impossible; it is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one’s existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible.

    "Heart of Darkness" (1899,Conrad)

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Thu Oct 20 14:11:27 2022
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 1:56:37 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 1:51:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:

    - History repeats itself, but the special call of an
    art which has passed away is never reproduced.
    It is utterly gone out of the world as the song of
    a destroyed wild bird. (Joseph Conrad)
    You must obviosly be a retired English teacher.
    No other thing could possibly quote Conrad.

    dk

    Does this apply to someone who posts here?:

    - The horror! The horror!

    "Heart of Darkness" (1899,Conrad)

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Oct 20 14:57:20 2022
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 2:11:30 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 1:56:37 PM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 1:51:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:

    - History repeats itself, but the special call of an
    art which has passed away is never reproduced.
    It is utterly gone out of the world as the song of
    a destroyed wild bird. (Joseph Conrad)

    You must obviosly be a retired English teacher.
    No other thing could possibly quote Conrad.

    Does this apply to someone who posts here?:

    - The horror! The horror!

    "Heart of Darkness" (1899,Conrad)

    Only English teachers quote Conrad.

    dk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Oct 20 15:24:48 2022
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 1:51:51 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 3:14:51 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
    On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:55:47 AM UTC+2, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
    In some corner of a foreign thread, Herman asked my opinion of René Jacobs and the B’Rock Orchestra playing the Schubert Great C Major and the Unfinished.
    Did I?
    After all the indignation I checked a minute of the Hurwitz video, and it is indeed problematic.
    Not just the way the HIP mvt is declared dead and unnecessary - is it really the only way to gather clicks, repeatedly declaring CM or a subgroup of CM is dead? It's the Lebrecht model of trying for relevance at the expense of one's sublect...

    - History repeats itself, but the special call of an art which has passed away is never reproduced. It is utterly gone out of the world as the song of a destroyed wild bird. (Joseph Conrad)

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/_cP1RjSCpc0

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  • From Peter@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 20 16:19:55 2022
    I haven't heard RJ's Schubert, but I have listened to his Haydn and Mozart. He seems very into the rhetoric of the period, which he shows through somewhat exaggerated pointing. There are times when I'm very happy to let him guide me this way, but
    others when I'd rather approach the music more as, well, just music.

    At least, this is my recollection, not having heard him recently. I can't really hear anything right now because the air quality outside is well into the red zone, and I have the filter running full blast a few feet away.

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  • From JohnGavin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 21 04:01:10 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 6:21:25 AM UTC-4, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/20/22 5:55 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    To me these recordings fall into the category of 'interesting' but to Mr D they can't be interesting because they are stupid.
    Out of curiosity I listened (by way of Amazon Music) to Jacob’s Schubert symphonies as well as those new recordings by Blomstedt. I then went
    through my collection quickly, listening to the first movement only of
    the ninth, including Munch, Szell (Epic), Szell (Angel), Monteux, Furtwangler, Hamilton Hardy, Krips, Carl Schuricht, and Toscanini (Philadelphia).

    As usual when I do these comparisons I found something to like about all
    of them - there was no perfect performance. I’d have to say the most interesting and exciting was the Munch, with Carl Schuricht carrying the excitement to an extreme. If I had to choose a “best” I’d pick Krips or
    Szell on Sony.

    But back to Jacobs… It’s true that as noted by Hurwitz the balance on the recording is terrible, with the strings barely heard. It seems like
    the brass is too prominent also. But the playing is lively, with
    interesting phrasing. Not sure this should be anyone’s only version, but it is a different perspective.

    And shouldn’t the vitriol be reserved for those routine performances
    that are so common? Those that are perfectly played - but lifeless, have phrasing without inflection, lack dynamic contrasts, and have all the
    notes - but no personality.

    Folks here I’m sure can think of (too) many examples - late Mehta or
    late Ozawa, some Karajan and Ormandy, Leinsdorf, etc.

    I agree with Mr Clarke that these recordings are unusual - but interesting...

    Thanks for your excellent post! It’s encouraging to see balanced and sane discussion return to this newsgroup.

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Fri Oct 21 06:21:20 2022
    On 10/20/22 5:55 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    To me these recordings fall into the category of 'interesting' but to Mr D they can't be interesting because they are stupid.

    Out of curiosity I listened (by way of Amazon Music) to Jacob’s Schubert symphonies as well as those new recordings by Blomstedt. I then went
    through my collection quickly, listening to the first movement only of
    the ninth, including Munch, Szell (Epic), Szell (Angel), Monteux,
    Furtwangler, Hamilton Hardy, Krips, Carl Schuricht, and Toscanini (Philadelphia).

    As usual when I do these comparisons I found something to like about all
    of them - there was no perfect performance. I’d have to say the most interesting and exciting was the Munch, with Carl Schuricht carrying the excitement to an extreme. If I had to choose a “best” I’d pick Krips or Szell on Sony.

    But back to Jacobs… It’s true that as noted by Hurwitz the balance on
    the recording is terrible, with the strings barely heard. It seems like
    the brass is too prominent also. But the playing is lively, with
    interesting phrasing. Not sure this should be anyone’s only version, but
    it is a different perspective.

    And shouldn’t the vitriol be reserved for those routine performances
    that are so common? Those that are perfectly played - but lifeless, have phrasing without inflection, lack dynamic contrasts, and have all the
    notes - but no personality.

    Folks here I’m sure can think of (too) many examples - late Mehta or
    late Ozawa, some Karajan and Ormandy, Leinsdorf, etc.

    I agree with Mr Clarke that these recordings are unusual - but
    interesting...

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to JohnGavin on Fri Oct 21 07:25:11 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:01:13 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 6:21:25 AM UTC-4, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/20/22 5:55 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    To me these recordings fall into the category of 'interesting' but to Mr D they can't be interesting because they are stupid.
    Out of curiosity I listened (by way of Amazon Music) to Jacob’s Schubert symphonies as well as those new recordings by Blomstedt. I then went through my collection quickly, listening to the first movement only of
    the ninth, including Munch, Szell (Epic), Szell (Angel), Monteux, Furtwangler, Hamilton Hardy, Krips, Carl Schuricht, and Toscanini (Philadelphia).

    As usual when I do these comparisons I found something to like about all of them - there was no perfect performance. I’d have to say the most interesting and exciting was the Munch, with Carl Schuricht carrying the excitement to an extreme. If I had to choose a “best” I’d pick Krips or
    Szell on Sony.

    But back to Jacobs… It’s true that as noted by Hurwitz the balance on the recording is terrible, with the strings barely heard. It seems like the brass is too prominent also. But the playing is lively, with interesting phrasing. Not sure this should be anyone’s only version, but it is a different perspective.

    And shouldn’t the vitriol be reserved for those routine performances that are so common? Those that are perfectly played - but lifeless, have phrasing without inflection, lack dynamic contrasts, and have all the notes - but no personality.

    Folks here I’m sure can think of (too) many examples - late Mehta or late Ozawa, some Karajan and Ormandy, Leinsdorf, etc.

    I agree with Mr Clarke that these recordings are unusual - but interesting...

    Thanks for your excellent post! It’s encouraging to see balanced
    and sane discussion return to this newsgroup.

    Meaningless verbiage. Why not listen to some samples
    instead of dancing endlessly about architecture?

    Here is one of the reference performances of the 9th:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSFTeCAc3us

    Here is another one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZzVDThtiww

    And here are the 1st and 3rd movements b.rocken
    by Jacob's B.Rocken Orchestra:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0V8z2upglo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQFud8Nba64

    Not obvious why YouTube is hiding the 2nd and the
    4th movements from prying ears, though you may
    be able to find them on Spotify or Amazon Prime.

    Listen and draw your own conclusions.

    dk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Fri Oct 21 08:38:00 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:25:14 PM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:01:13 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:

    Thanks for your excellent post! It’s encouraging to see balanced
    and sane discussion return to this newsgroup.

    Meaningless verbiage. Why not listen to some samples
    instead of dancing endlessly about architecture?

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  • From Gerard@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 21 17:18:05 2022
    Op 2022-10-21 om 13:01 schreef JohnGavin:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 6:21:25 AM UTC-4, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/20/22 5:55 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    To me these recordings fall into the category of 'interesting' but to Mr D they can't be interesting because they are stupid.
    Out of curiosity I listened (by way of Amazon Music) to Jacob’s Schubert >> symphonies as well as those new recordings by Blomstedt. I then went
    through my collection quickly, listening to the first movement only of
    the ninth, including Munch, Szell (Epic), Szell (Angel), Monteux,
    Furtwangler, Hamilton Hardy, Krips, Carl Schuricht, and Toscanini
    (Philadelphia).

    As usual when I do these comparisons I found something to like about all
    of them - there was no perfect performance. I’d have to say the most
    interesting and exciting was the Munch, with Carl Schuricht carrying the
    excitement to an extreme. If I had to choose a “best” I’d pick Krips or
    Szell on Sony.

    But back to Jacobs… It’s true that as noted by Hurwitz the balance on
    the recording is terrible, with the strings barely heard. It seems like
    the brass is too prominent also. But the playing is lively, with
    interesting phrasing. Not sure this should be anyone’s only version, but >> it is a different perspective.

    And shouldn’t the vitriol be reserved for those routine performances
    that are so common? Those that are perfectly played - but lifeless, have
    phrasing without inflection, lack dynamic contrasts, and have all the
    notes - but no personality.

    Folks here I’m sure can think of (too) many examples - late Mehta or
    late Ozawa, some Karajan and Ormandy, Leinsdorf, etc.

    I agree with Mr Clarke that these recordings are unusual - but
    interesting...

    Thanks for your excellent post! It’s encouraging to see balanced and sane discussion return to this newsgroup.

    Indeed. Such posts are why one would visit this ng.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 21 09:56:58 2022
    Here is one of the reference performances of the 9th:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSFTeCAc3us

    Here is another one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZzVDThtiww

    And here are the 1st and 3rd movements b.rocken
    by Jacob's B.Rocken Orchestra:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0V8z2upglo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQFud8Nba64

    Not obvious why YouTube is hiding the 2nd and the
    4th movements from prying ears, though you may
    be able to find them on Spotify or Amazon Prime.

    Listen and draw your own conclusions.

    LOL! This isn't fair. Compared with your favourites René Jacobs - Flemish pronunciation, please! - is 'interesting' in an unusual meaning of the word.

    Henk

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  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to docduc1013@aol.com on Fri Oct 21 16:46:38 2022
    In article <6f36af15-6830-de2b-01a2-da142652f4c3@aol.com>,
    Notsure01 <docduc1013@aol.com> wrote:
    It's true that as noted by Hurwitz the balance on the recording
    is terrible, with the strings barely heard.

    Most of what people enjoy in these well worn works is a matter of
    opinion, but this statement sure doesn't ring true for me. This
    is an especially good recording, very vivid. I already remarked
    in the other thread how I appreciated focusing on listening to the
    (string) bass for the whole work. (I have no idea what Hurwitz had
    to say, though.)

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to hvt...@xs4all.nl on Fri Oct 21 10:22:54 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 6:57:00 PM UTC+2, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:

    LOL! This isn't fair. Compared with your favourites René Jacobs - Flemish pronunciation, please! - is 'interesting' in an unusual meaning of the word.

    Henk

    OMG one of those Celibidache jobs is supposed to be a 'reference' Schubert 9!

    Celibidache performances are at best 'interesting' in the sense of 'eccentric'.

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Todd M. McComb on Fri Oct 21 14:53:06 2022
    On 10/21/22 12:46 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    In article <6f36af15-6830-de2b-01a2-da142652f4c3@aol.com>,
    Notsure01 <docduc1013@aol.com> wrote:
    It's true that as noted by Hurwitz the balance on the recording
    is terrible, with the strings barely heard.

    Most of what people enjoy in these well worn works is a matter of
    opinion, but this statement sure doesn't ring true for me. This
    is an especially good recording, very vivid. I already remarked
    in the other thread how I appreciated focusing on listening to the
    (string) bass for the whole work. (I have no idea what Hurwitz had
    to say, though.)

    I see what you mean - to clarify I should have said not that they can't
    be heard, but that the string sound is weak -- as an example, I'd point
    to that duet in Pulcinella -- as I think Stravinsky put it: "the
    trombone has a very loud voice and the string bass has almost no voice
    at all".

    Today we are used to hearing large string sections with gorgeous tone,
    but I suspect that in the early nineteenth century this was not so much
    the case!

    One of the advantages of HIP is that we can hear familiar works
    differently -- and Hurwitz notes some aspects are now reflected in
    standard ensembles- the balances in orchestras have changed.

    For example, the notorious Karajan string "sheen" for me doesn't help
    Brahms, and the Honeck 4th is interesting to me because of the better
    balances.

    (Oh, I'd also note that in my original post I spelled a name wrong -
    should be Hamilton Harty! A favorite of mine and another interesting
    Schubert 9th)

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  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to docduc1013@aol.com on Fri Oct 21 19:01:37 2022
    In article <362256fb-bf9d-2d3b-bee5-f2211566db18@aol.com>,
    Notsure01 <docduc1013@aol.com> wrote:
    I should have said not that they can't be heard, but that the
    string sound is weak ....

    That's one response I guess. As noted, it was the string basses
    that captivated me originally. I mean, I don't know if people think
    I go into something like this with an agenda, but I'm just having
    a listen, and that's the first thing I noted (as posted in the other
    thread). I said they reminded me of jazz bass.

    For example, the notorious Karajan string "sheen" ....

    I think this is a good example, illustrating as much contrast as
    possible.... I just don't like this kind of sound very much....

    What you call "gorgeous" I guess. I liked the character from Jacobs'
    group, maybe that's a word I'd use.

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 21 12:48:07 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 9:32:52 PM UTC+2, Notsure01 wrote:


    and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives...

    Yes, your comments are clearly appreciated!

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Todd M. McComb on Fri Oct 21 15:32:47 2022
    On 10/21/22 3:01 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    In article <362256fb-bf9d-2d3b-bee5-f2211566db18@aol.com>,
    Notsure01 <docduc1013@aol.com> wrote:
    I should have said not that they can't be heard, but that the
    string sound is weak ....

    I mean, I don't know if people think
    I go into something like this with an agenda


    I'm sure your agenda is the same as that of everyone here - a deep love
    of music and a fascination with the wide spectrum of interpretations and performances.

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a
    Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to docduc1013@aol.com on Fri Oct 21 21:57:58 2022
    In article <3feeaf90-f439-a1cc-40c4-a35fb8d2fe26@aol.com>,
    Notsure01 <docduc1013@aol.com> wrote:
    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version
    of a Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have
    a place full of like minded folks so we can share our different >perspectives...

    Ha, well, don't go too far with that Bruckner 8 thing...! :-)

    On the strings here, just listening to the Unfinished again, and
    the strings are particularly nice there... really a showcase the
    first few minutes. Not as voluminous, I guess, as you note, but
    they sure keep my attention.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 21 14:42:42 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives...

    "Like minded" is nothing more than double speak for intolerance
    towards people whose minds are wired differently than yours,
    and who do not necessarily share your ideas or accept your
    assumptions about art, music and performance. No more,
    no less, and nothing else. A naked expression of pseudo
    ethical, bigoted, hypocritical "moral majority" conformity.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 21 14:44:36 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 11:53:12 AM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    For example, the notorious Karajan string
    "sheen" for me doesn't help Brahms,

    Of course it doesn't. Karajan's string sheen
    was nothing more than a reflection of his
    wardrobe.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 21 15:26:44 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/21/22 5:42 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a
    Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives...

    "Like minded" is nothing more than double speak for intolerance
    towards people whose minds are wired differently than yours,
    and who do not necessarily share your ideas or accept your
    assumptions about art, music and performance. No more,
    no less, and nothing else. A naked expression of pseudo
    ethical, bigoted, hypocritical "moral majority" conformity.

    By "like minded" I meant people who like classical
    music and are interested in discussing recordings.

    No live performances? What is a recording anyways?
    Before the internet, recordings used to be tapes, LPs,
    CDs. Nowadays an increasingly large fraction of the
    music one listens to no longer fits into traditional
    recording categories. To my mind, performances
    on YT are recordings.

    Are there other kinds of people here?

    There are plenty of people in this ng who use it to
    promote political agendas.

    dk

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Oct 21 18:16:45 2022
    On 10/21/22 5:42 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a
    Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives...

    "Like minded" is nothing more than double speak for intolerance
    towards people whose minds are wired differently than yours,
    and who do not necessarily share your ideas or accept your
    assumptions about art, music and performance. No more,
    no less, and nothing else. A naked expression of pseudo
    ethical, bigoted, hypocritical "moral majority" conformity.

    dk

    By "like minded" I meant people who like classical music and are
    interested in discussing recordings. Are there other kinds of people here?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Oct 21 19:12:46 2022
    On 10/21/22 6:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/21/22 5:42 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a
    Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives... >>>
    "Like minded" is nothing more than double speak for intolerance
    towards people whose minds are wired differently than yours,
    and who do not necessarily share your ideas or accept your
    assumptions about art, music and performance. No more,
    no less, and nothing else. A naked expression of pseudo
    ethical, bigoted, hypocritical "moral majority" conformity.

    By "like minded" I meant people who like classical
    music and are interested in discussing recordings.

    No live performances? What is a recording anyways?
    Before the internet, recordings used to be tapes, LPs,
    CDs. Nowadays an increasingly large fraction of the
    music one listens to no longer fits into traditional
    recording categories. To my mind, performances
    on YT are recordings.

    Are there other kinds of people here?

    There are plenty of people in this ng who use it to
    promote political agendas.

    dk

    I agree with you (as I very often do) about a broad definition of
    recordings. And I like and respect everyone here (except maybe the
    fellow peddling textbooks and the Italian pornographer).

    I'm also happy to see threads about just about anything - as long as
    they are marked OT.

    But does it promote a political agenda when someone says > "Like minded"
    is nothing more than double speak for intolerance?
    I'm Notsure so I ask the question...

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  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 21 19:19:39 2022
    On Saturday, 22 October 2022 at 10:12:51 UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/21/22 6:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/21/22 5:42 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a >>>> Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place >>>> full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives... >>>
    "Like minded" is nothing more than double speak for intolerance
    towards people whose minds are wired differently than yours,
    and who do not necessarily share your ideas or accept your
    assumptions about art, music and performance. No more,
    no less, and nothing else. A naked expression of pseudo
    ethical, bigoted, hypocritical "moral majority" conformity.

    By "like minded" I meant people who like classical
    music and are interested in discussing recordings.

    No live performances? What is a recording anyways?
    Before the internet, recordings used to be tapes, LPs,
    CDs. Nowadays an increasingly large fraction of the
    music one listens to no longer fits into traditional
    recording categories. To my mind, performances
    on YT are recordings.

    Are there other kinds of people here?

    There are plenty of people in this ng who use it to
    promote political agendas.

    dk
    I agree with you (as I very often do) about a broad definition of recordings. And I like and respect everyone here (except maybe the
    fellow peddling textbooks and the Italian pornographer).

    I'm also happy to see threads about just about anything - as long as
    they are marked OT.

    But does it promote a political agenda when someone says > "Like minded"
    is nothing more than double speak for intolerance?
    I'm Notsure so I ask the question...

    That is Melmoth's line, so much so that he virtually is "en train de" of always asking. Anyway, the term "likeminded" clearly indicates people who like art/serious music, folk or even popular music of a certain era, going from contemporary back maybe
    through 10 centuries or so in time, from a whole multitude of different nationalities. Many people even include jazz, including myself. The phrase is common enough and shouldn't really need any explanation. The term "recordings" is more suspect these
    days, but I adhere 100% to cds, whereas others might do streaming and other multi-fangled things.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sat Oct 22 06:44:04 2022
    On 10/21/22 2:42 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a
    Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives...

    "Like minded" is nothing more than double speak for intolerance
    towards people whose minds are wired differently than yours,
    and who do not necessarily share your ideas or accept your
    assumptions about art, music and performance. No more,
    no less, and nothing else. A naked expression of pseudo
    ethical, bigoted, hypocritical "moral majority" conformity.

    dk

    To Mr. Notsure01,

    Please feel free to ignore Mr. Koren. He has devolved into a mere
    bomb-thrower here, more concerned with generating heat than light. Your comments have been greatly appreciated by the serious persons in this group.

    Bob Harper

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 22 09:16:30 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/21/22 5:42 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a
    Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives...

    "Like minded" is nothing more than double speak for intolerance
    towards people whose minds are wired differently than yours,
    and who do not necessarily share your ideas or accept your
    assumptions about art, music and performance. No more,
    no less, and nothing else. A naked expression of pseudo
    ethical, bigoted, hypocritical "moral majority" conformity.

    dk
    By "like minded" I meant people who like classical music and are
    interested in discussing recordings. Are there other kinds of people here?

    I sometimes WONDER about that.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 22 09:26:06 2022
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 11:53:12 AM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:
    On 10/21/22 12:46 PM, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    In article <6f36af15-6830-de2b...@aol.com>,
    Notsure01 <docdu...@aol.com> wrote:
    It's true that as noted by Hurwitz the balance on the recording
    is terrible, with the strings barely heard.

    Most of what people enjoy in these well worn works is a matter of
    opinion, but this statement sure doesn't ring true for me. This
    is an especially good recording, very vivid. I already remarked
    in the other thread how I appreciated focusing on listening to the (string) bass for the whole work. (I have no idea what Hurwitz had
    to say, though.)
    I see what you mean - to clarify I should have said not that they can't
    be heard, but that the string sound is weak -- as an example, I'd point
    to that duet in Pulcinella -- as I think Stravinsky put it: "the
    trombone has a very loud voice and the string bass has almost no voice
    at all".

    Today we are used to hearing large string sections with gorgeous tone,
    but I suspect that in the early nineteenth century this was not so much
    the case! ...

    That's probably true.

    Concerning Leider's recordings of Gluck's "Ah! Si la liberte":

    ""Ah ! Si la liberté". "Armide". Gluck. Frida Leider."

    Doesn't it sound glorious and full?

    But if you listen to that aria in Minkowski's complete studio ARMIDE, you will probably think that the voice and orchestral accompaniment are rather thin (or even weak). But that is probably closer to what Gluck had in mind. Leider's recording is
    probably closer to the 19th-c. view of how music should sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Sat Oct 22 17:11:38 2022
    On 10/22/22 9:44 AM, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 10/21/22 2:42 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    I know my wife doesn't understand why I need yet another version of a
    Beethoven sonata or ... Bruckner 8th, and it is great to have a place
    full of like minded folks so we can share our different perspectives...

    "Like minded" is nothing more than double speak for intolerance
    towards people whose minds are wired differently than yours,
    and who do not necessarily share your ideas or accept your
    assumptions about art, music and performance. No more,
    no less, and nothing else. A naked expression of pseudo
    ethical, bigoted, hypocritical "moral majority" conformity.

    dk

    To Mr. Notsure01,

    Please feel free to ignore Mr. Koren. He has devolved into a mere bomb-thrower here, more concerned with generating heat than light. Your comments have been greatly appreciated by the serious persons in this
    group.

    Bob Harper

    Bob, thanks for your kind words! I've been a sporadic contributor here,
    but mostly a lurker, for years -- actually decades! I know all about
    some of the participants and their eccentricities(?) I remember TD, Ansermaniac, Tepper, that individual that seemed to like Cheryl Studer,
    etc, etc.

    They all had their faults, but at least they **participated**!!

    As for Dan - he can be ... provocative. But he goes to the effort of
    sifting through all the dross on Youtube and sharing links to what
    -might be- gems..

    Dan claims to be an expert on piano recordings - and I am (almost)
    convinced that is the case!

    Dan also has been known to contribute interesting insights to
    discussions of symphonic works, chamber music, and Opera also, so I
    would never want to ignore him!

    Sadly, it is true that his confrontational mannerism tends to drive
    people away - but we all have our faults (misuse of punctuation???)

    As you can see, I share his quirky, ironic sense-of-humor and have
    actually laughed at his jokes every now and then...

    And I also appreciate you, gentle reader, for reading my scribbles - and
    now start (or keep) participating!!

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  • From Oscar@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 22 16:31:26 2022
    I am listening _again_ the Ninth (sixth or seventh audition) waiting for the Alabama game to come on television, and again I must state: this is just great musicianship. The opening Andante—Allegro—(and especially the) Più mosso, you gotta love it.
    It is an exciting interpretation, and not on account of wanton textual abnormalities or 'cute' textures and tricks of balancing, either. I don't hear what is so _wrong_ here. "Vile, inhuman, disgusting," says the Pied Piper of Hanslickian Doom. I also do
    not hear the string imbalances upon which someone remarked upthread. And the string tones are neither scrawny nor desiccated. It is a smaller-sized orchestra, the kind that would have been playing this piece in 1828 were it premiered then. This sounds
    dang good to moi and with a convincing, ebullient interpretation, to boot. Much better than Jacobs's two CDs of later Mozart symphonies, recorded c.2006/07. I've enjoyed reading everyone's opinions. Go team!

    The Comments on YT for Herky's video 'review' come across like Scientologists! And if you ask me, they _all_ need to be 'audited'!!

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to Oscar on Sat Oct 22 21:50:15 2022
    On 10/22/22 7:31 PM, Oscar wrote:
    I am listening _again_ the Ninth...

    Thanks, Oscar, for seizing back this thread... I’ve been a prime villain
    in perpetuating the dread thread-drift!

    And sorry to cause so much controversy (even though I hear that
    controversy has been known to occur here) - I’ll now get back to
    discussing Jacob’s recording. I’ve been thinking of starting a separate thread on ways to improve this group… and also may be starting yet
    another thread providing my thoughts on HIP - even though no one has asked!

    (And from the description of RMCR one would think that a group of
    (mostly) elderly men debating such esoteric (and recondite) points such
    as proper Baroque ornamentation (I’m still not sure precisely how to
    play an appoggiatura) would be placid and dull…)

    I listened again to the Jacobs 9th, this time while following the Peters
    score, and found that you can hear everything clearly and he follows the
    score markings (I’ve heard that other hands, including Brahms, may have “adjusted” the symphony scores, there is controversy about the accent marks, etc- but this is all beyond me).

    One thing I’ve noticed on rehearing is the imaginative phrasing,
    particularly the woodwinds. For example, listen to the woodwinds at the beginning of the exposition (1st movement) and contrast the differences
    in phrasing of the same passages in the recapitulation. So I’d again
    agree that this is a worthwhile version - as a supplement to the greater
    ones, perhaps.

    Where I find this version lacking, aside from the weak strings, (and the
    lack of tone elsewhere - listen to the horns at the very beginning) is
    the dramatic touches great conductors can create. Consider the end of
    the lengthy introduction and transition to the main Allegro - Munch
    increases the tension perfectly, as does Krips and Schuricht. Jacobs
    version is not bad, but lacks the same excitement. Or, as another
    example, the coda has an overwhelming effect at the very end, it is on
    page 40 marked fff - it just doesn’t have the same (frisson?) effect on Jacobs' as on the really great versions of the… “Great” Schubert symphony.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 29 23:47:11 2022
    On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 6:50:23 PM UTC-7, Notsure01 wrote:

    Where I find this version lacking, aside from the weak strings,
    (and the lack of tone elsewhere - listen to the horns at the very beginning) is the dramatic touches great conductors can create.
    Consider the end of the lengthy introduction and transition to the
    main Allegro - Munch increases the tension perfectly, as does Krips
    and Schuricht. Jacobs version is not bad, but lacks the same excitement. Or, as another example, the coda has an overwhelming effect at the very end, it is on page 40 marked fff - it just doesn’t have the same (frisson?)
    effect on Jacobs' as on the really great versions of the… “Great” Schubert
    symphony.

    What a convoluted and roundabout way to say Jacobs is a third
    rate conductor! I was driving on I-80 last week at MM = 80 speed,
    when KXCR blasted one of his Schubert symphonies through my
    radio. It was so annoying I had to stop, pull off the highway, eat a Häagen-Dazs Dark Chocolate on Chocolate ice cream bar, and
    wait until the symphony ended before resuming my progression.

    dk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 30 01:53:09 2022
    Well, the difference is that notsure talks about the music and gives some information, that's something people appreciate.
    Your post is (as usual) only about you and your OCD. So, in essence, totally lacking in info.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Wed Nov 30 03:11:31 2022
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 1:53:11 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    Well, the difference is that notsure talks about
    the music and gives some information, that's
    something people appreciate. Your post is (as
    usual) only about you and your OCD. So, in
    essence, totally lacking in info.

    Here's some "information" for you:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRphhbIechI

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Wed Nov 30 02:21:31 2022
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 1:53:11 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    Well, the difference is that notsure talks about the music

    He talks about what HE HEARS (or doesn't) in Jacob's
    performance. HIS perceptions, not some hypothetical
    person's.

    and gives some information,

    There is no objective "information" in Notsure01's post,
    only his opinion(s). Stop throwing sand into one's eyes
    and ears by pretending otherwise.

    that's something people appreciate.

    It goes without saying this is everyone's constitutional
    right -- even in countries that so not have constitutions,
    like the UK. So what is your point? Are you suggesting
    that people should only post "information" rather than
    personal opinions? Can you spell B-R-A-I-N-F-U-C-K ?!?

    Your post is (as usual) only about you and your OCD.

    In case you haven't noticed, most every article posted
    in this ng is about their authors' opinions -- except for
    trivia such as weblinks or record numbers.

    If you are concerned about other people's delusions,
    paranoia, and other mental conditions, first look in
    the mirror, then review Oscar's rants about Nixon
    and Trump.

    So, in essence, totally lacking in info.

    So what? There are no formal requirements to
    post (only verifiable) "information" in this ng.

    You keep complaining about what others
    write. Can you explain what "information"
    you provided when you posted this gem
    about one of the top classical guitarists:

    On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 4:27:00 AM UTC+1, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:

    Huh? Is this your way of saying the best
    classical guitar is no classical guitar?

    a young kid playing Tears in Heaven... sigh. that's dk's
    idea of "classical guitar.... but she's a nubile Asian woman!
    that's sufficiently classical to him.

    YOU ARE A BRAINFUCKED IDIOT !!!

    dk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Nov 30 04:39:15 2022
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 11:21:35 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:


    YOU ARE A BRAINFUCKED IDIOT !!!

    dk

    Back to your usual mo

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Nov 30 04:41:41 2022
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 12:11:34 PM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 1:53:11 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    Well, the difference is that notsure talks about
    the music and gives some information, that's
    something people appreciate. Your post is (as
    usual) only about you and your OCD. So, in
    essence, totally lacking in info.
    Here's some "information" for you:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRphhbIechI

    dk

    OMG, you think I'm going to waste more than one second on a "worst performances ever" compilation? Why would any grownup do that?

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Nov 30 04:45:50 2022
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 11:21:35 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:


    You keep complaining about what others
    write. Can you explain what "information"
    you provided when you posted this gem
    about one of the top classical guitarists:

    On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 4:27:00 AM UTC+1, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:

    Huh? Is this your way of saying the best
    classical guitar is no classical guitar?

    a young kid playing Tears in Heaven... sigh. that's dk's
    idea of "classical guitar.... but she's a nubile Asian woman!
    that's sufficiently classical to him.

    Well, it's been a while, but I'm guessing you posted another blind link with some misleading title, as you often do, and hopefully I provided people a service by giving a description.
    Not everybody is dying to see a fake-classical version of a pop song.

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  • From Paul Alsing@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Wed Nov 30 19:26:11 2022
    On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 11:47:14 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    ... I was driving on I-80 last week at MM = 80 speed,
    when KXCR blasted one of his Schubert symphonies through my
    radio. It was so annoying I had to stop, pull off the highway, eat a Häagen-Dazs Dark Chocolate on Chocolate ice cream bar, and
    wait until the symphony ended before resuming my progression.

    dk

    So... why are you listening to the radio to something that you do not like when you can download a butt-load of music to your phone and listen to any dang thing that you want to hear? I myself have over 600 albums on my phone and never lack for something
    great to listen to while on the road... of course, any time is a good time to enjoy a Häagen-Dazs Dark Chocolate on Chocolate ice cream bar... but still...

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to pnal...@gmail.com on Fri Dec 2 22:37:42 2022
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 7:26:14 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 11:47:14 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    ... I was driving on I-80 last week at MM = 80 speed,
    when KXCR blasted one of his Schubert symphonies through my
    radio. It was so annoying I had to stop, pull off the highway, eat a Häagen-Dazs Dark Chocolate on Chocolate ice cream bar, and
    wait until the symphony ended before resuming my progression.

    So... why are you listening to the radio to something that you do
    not like when you can download a butt-load of music to your
    phone and listen to any dang thing that you want to hear?

    I always have a dozen CDs loaded in the 2 CD changers in my
    Audi, and I can also connect an iPod or similar audio player.

    At the same time, I am a very curious cat and I often listen
    to KCNV, KNCC, KCNV, KXPR, KDFC and KQED while driving,
    as a way to follow the news and to discover new things.

    I myself have over 600 albums on my phone and never lack
    for something great to listen to while on the road... of course,

    My phone does not have any storage capability. It has a real
    dialing keyboard that can be used reliably without looking.

    any time is a good time to enjoy a Häagen-Dazs Dark
    Chocolate on Chocolate ice cream bar... but still...

    The best time for ice cream is actually during snowstorms.
    When traffic is stopped or moves slowly because of chain
    controls I just pull over to the nearest gas station to have
    ice cream. I have indexed all the gas stations along I-80,
    SR-50, SR-95, SR-120, SR-395 that have Häagen-Dazs
    Dark Chocolate bars! ;-)

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Fri Dec 2 22:48:55 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 7:37:45 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 7:26:14 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 11:47:14 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    ... I was driving on I-80 last week at MM = 80 speed,
    when KXCR blasted one of his Schubert symphonies through my
    radio. It was so annoying I had to stop, pull off the highway, eat a Häagen-Dazs Dark Chocolate on Chocolate ice cream bar, and
    wait until the symphony ended before resuming my progression.

    So... why are you listening to the radio to something that you do
    not like when you can download a butt-load of music to your
    phone and listen to any dang thing that you want to hear?
    I always have a dozen CDs loaded in the 2 CD changers in my
    Audi, and I can also connect an iPod or similar audio player.

    At the same time, I am a very curious cat and I often listen
    to KCNV, KNCC, KCNV, KXPR, KDFC and KQED while driving,
    as a way to follow the news and to discover new things.

    And yet you couldn't change the music?
    Mmmm.
    Are you sure you even have a car?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 3 01:07:03 2022
    It's not a matter of paranoia, but rather a healthy dose of scepsis.
    No one on this group is so eager to share, unasked, details of his status possesions, which leads one to think maybe there is less than meets the eye.
    Of course there's Melmoth, too, who used to enumerate how many CDs he has, and this is one of the reasons why you're always fighting him (apart from just your hatred of non-Americans).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Dec 3 00:40:47 2022
    On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:48:58 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 7:37:45 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 7:26:14 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 11:47:14 PM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    ... I was driving on I-80 last week at MM = 80 speed,
    when KXCR blasted one of his Schubert symphonies through my
    radio. It was so annoying I had to stop, pull off the highway, eat a Häagen-Dazs Dark Chocolate on Chocolate ice cream bar, and
    wait until the symphony ended before resuming my progression.

    So... why are you listening to the radio to something that you do
    not like when you can download a butt-load of music to your
    phone and listen to any dang thing that you want to hear?

    I always have a dozen CDs loaded in the 2 CD changers in my
    Audi, and I can also connect an iPod or similar audio player.

    At the same time, I am a very curious cat and I often listen
    to KCNV, KNCC, KCNV, KXPR, KDFC and KQED while driving,
    as a way to follow the news and to discover new things.

    And yet you couldn't change the music?

    I was actually curious to find out who were the butchers.

    Are you sure you even have a car?

    Would you like me to produce copies of my registration
    and of my speeding tickets? The most recent one is
    less than a week old -- I was trying to reach Tahoe
    ahead of a snowstorm. I can also provide dated
    copies of my gas and ice cream receipts.

    Take care, Mr. Paranoid.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Dec 3 01:22:40 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 1:07:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    It's not a matter of paranoia, but rather a healthy dose of scepsis.

    About owning and driving an old car with a CD player ?!?
    You call that "status" ?!?

    No one on this group is so eager to share, unasked,
    details of his status possesions, which leads one to
    think maybe there is less than meets the eye.

    Did I ever claim more than one Audi? Do you believe
    an old car with > 100k miles is a "status possession"?

    Of course there's Melmoth, too, who used to enumerate
    how many CDs he has, and this is one of the reasons
    why you're always fighting him

    ROTFL !!! I could not care less how many escargot
    encrusted LPs Melmoth owns (IIRC he does not
    brag about CDs), or how many pairs of speakers
    and headphones he needs in order to listen to
    music (or maybe he needs hearing aids?). What
    I find distasteful about his postings are the fact
    that while he talks a big game, he never provides
    any tangible, listenable examples to support his
    theories, and the fact he appears to be stuck in
    a 19th century musical cave. Melmoth's posts
    amount to nothing more than annotated lists
    from Schwann (or maybe Le Diapason d'Or).
    Sometimes he tries to outdo G8 by quoting
    other people's writings extensively.

    (apart from just your hatred of non-Americans).

    ROTFL !!! Can you present a single example of
    "hate against non-Americans"? Making fun of
    of various cultures for various reason's does
    not add up to "hate".

    As stated earlier, you exhibit symptoms of
    extreme woke paranoia.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sat Dec 3 02:02:03 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:22:43 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 1:07:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:



    I'll give you three.

    1 Posting a topic with the title "I hate the French". I know you later said it was a joke, but that variety of Trumpy denial doesn't fly.

    2 There was this new poster who was clearly eager to discuss music, using whole paragraphs etc. As soon as you had gotten wind he was French you started abusing him. You were not interested in the way the French indulged in verbiage . You wanted youtube
    links and Everybody STFU. Ironically the posts in which you were talking about your aversion to verbiage were waaayyy longer than any other post by anyone. You love verbiage, as long as it's you.
    Although various RMCRers responded in a friendly manner, that newbie has never been seen again. You had succesfully bullied him off. No doubt you think ethnic slurs are a funny old-timey way to interact, but really nobody else feels that way, don't know
    whether you noticed.

    3 Recently you enumerated various EU located RMCR posters and called them "imperial subjects".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sat Dec 3 01:55:51 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 1:22:43 AM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 1:07:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    It's not a matter of paranoia, but rather a healthy dose of
    scepsis. About owning and driving an old car with a CD
    player ?!? You call this "status" ?!?

    No one on this group is so eager to share, unasked,
    details of his status possesions, which leads one to
    think maybe there is less than meets the eye.

    Did I ever claim more than one Audi? Do you believe
    an old car with > 100k miles is a "status possession"?

    Just out of curiosity I checked KBB to find the book
    value of a 2001 Audi A4 with more than 100k miles:
    $3200.

    The car is maintained well, and if I wanted to sell it
    I could probably ask for a bit more. It runs very well
    thanks to my mechanic and to the exclusive use of
    high octave jazzolene. This improves gas mileage
    and reduces engine wear!

    Some status!

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sat Dec 3 02:13:30 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:22:43 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    ROTFL !!! Can you present a single example of
    "hate against non-Americans"? Making fun of
    of various cultures for various reason's does
    not add up to "hate".

    You seem to be living in the 1950s.
    Making fun of various cultures for various reasons, using words like I Hate You People does add up to hate. That's why you use the word hate.
    As Frank would (perhaps) say, look it up in the dixionary. Hate = Hate. Especially if you say it a lot.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sat Dec 3 02:46:32 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 11:30:31 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 2:13:33 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:22:43 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    ROTFL !!! Can you present a single example of
    "hate against non-Americans"? Making fun of
    of various cultures for various reason's does
    not add up to "hate".

    You seem to be living in the 1950s.
    Making fun of various cultures for various reasons,
    using words like I Hate You People does add up to hate.
    That's why you use the word hate.
    Can you show some actual examples?
    As Frank would (perhaps) say, look it
    up in the dixionary. Hate = Hate.
    Especially if you say it a lot.
    Can you show some examples?

    dk

    I just gave you three examples.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Dec 3 02:30:28 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 2:13:33 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:22:43 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    ROTFL !!! Can you present a single example of
    "hate against non-Americans"? Making fun of
    of various cultures for various reason's does
    not add up to "hate".

    You seem to be living in the 1950s.
    Making fun of various cultures for various reasons,
    using words like I Hate You People does add up to hate.
    That's why you use the word hate.

    Can you show some actual examples?

    As Frank would (perhaps) say, look it
    up in the dixionary. Hate = Hate.
    Especially if you say it a lot.

    Can you show some examples?

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sat Dec 3 03:54:48 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 12:17:50 PM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 2:02:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    3 Recently you enumerated various EU located
    RMCR posters and called them "imperial subjects".
    ROTFL!!! What part of "imperial subject" is "ethnic"?

    The EU part.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sat Dec 3 03:53:16 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 12:17:50 PM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 2:02:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    You were not interested in the way the French
    indulged in verbiage .
    You must be joking. I studied French for 15 years,
    and I can read any French text without dictionary,
    including Medieval French. You are telling someone
    who has read Proust and Stendhal and Descartes
    and Voltaire, and even the memoirs of De Retz
    that he doesn't understand French verbiage?

    I did not say you did not 'understand French verbiage"; no one here writes posts in French, to my knowledge. I said you resented verbiage (except your own: look at the length of your posts here) especially coming from people from France.

    BTW this "I studied French for fifteen years" again rudily awakens my BS meter. As you so often do. I don't know what the exact meaning is of your 'studied', but on previous occasions you have said you went to a School of Music for twenty years, which
    was kind of puzzling too. What school has students linger for twenty years? Add fifteen years of French to this, and you also claim to have studied physics, so we are to understand you have spent at least forty years in advanced studies?
    Needless to say virtually no one talks so much about his credentials as you do, but unfortunately your talking about your prowess in any field does stretch credulity every single time.
    Ah, the beauty of the internet, where everything one says is true!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Dec 3 03:17:47 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 2:02:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 10:22:43 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 1:07:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    I'll give you three.

    1 Posting a topic with the title "I hate the French". I
    know you later said it was a joke, but that variety of
    Trumpy denial doesn't fly.

    I posted a link to a well known satirical song by Rowan
    Atkinson and Howard Godall:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dy-VhtGcXw

    To interpret this as evidence one "hates" the French
    is not only absurd -- it is simply beyond imbeicility.
    Do you believe Rowan Atkinson or Howard Godall
    really hate the French?

    2 There was this new poster who was clearly eager
    to discuss music, using whole paragraphs etc. As
    soon as you had gotten wind he was French you
    started abusing him.

    Completely untrue. I did not treat him differently
    from anyone else. I could not care less he is/was
    French. He was simply writing non-sense, and I
    pointed that out.

    You were not interested in the way the French
    indulged in verbiage .

    You must be joking. I studied French for 15 years,
    and I can read any French text without dictionary,
    including Medieval French. You are telling someon
    who has read Proust and Stendhal and Descartes
    and Voltaire, and even the memoirs of De Retz
    that he doesn't understand French verbiage?

    You wanted youtube links and Everybody STFU.

    No, I did not say that. I stated that links to YT or
    Spotify or whatever that can provide access to
    audible examples would be useful to making
    posters and readers understand one another.
    No more, no less, and no STFU.

    Ironically the posts in which you were talking about
    your aversion to verbiage were waaayyy longer than
    any other post by anyone.

    Have you read Oscar's posts about Nixon and Trump?

    You love verbiage, as long as it's you.

    Absolutely not. You are simply fabricating.

    Although various RMCRers responded in a friendly
    manner, that newbie has never been seen again.

    Everyone is free to say anything they like, and it cuts
    both ways. You keep accusing me of "driving away"
    people. Not only is this not true and beyond absurd,
    it is actually a deliberate, fraudulent and malicious
    misrepresentation. I have no idea who is or is not a
    "newbie", nor do I care. This is an open, unmoderated
    newsgroup. Anyone contemplating participation can
    read 30+ years of archives and figure out what they
    can expect.

    You had succesfully bullied him off.

    I did not "bully" anyone off. And there is no way to
    even tell if that "newbie" actually "left". How do we
    know he is not one of the anonymuos posters?
    And how does one tell he is/was a "newbie"?
    Did you check his papers and his birth date?

    No doubt you think ethnic slurs are a funny old-
    timey way to interact, but really nobody else feels
    that way, don't know whether you noticed.

    Yet another fabrication. Show us a single example.
    Please don't waste anyone's time with claims the
    "Russian Piano School" or similar phrases are
    "ethnic slurs".

    3 Recently you enumerated various EU located
    RMCR posters and called them "imperial subjects".

    ROTFL!!! What part of "imperial subject" is "ethnic"?

    You prove again and again that you are a deranged,
    paranoid woke looking everywhere for malicious
    intentions, distorting and twisting and intepreting
    other people's words outside the original context.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Dec 3 04:49:10 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 3:53:18 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 12:17:50 PM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 2:02:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    You were not interested in the way the French
    indulged in verbiage .
    You must be joking. I studied French for 15 years,
    and I can read any French text without dictionary,
    including Medieval French. You are telling someone
    who has read Proust and Stendhal and Descartes
    and Voltaire, and even the memoirs of De Retz
    that he doesn't understand French verbiage?

    I did not say you did not 'understand French verbiage";
    no one here writes posts in French, to my knowledge.
    I said you resented verbiage (except your own: look
    at the length of your posts here) especially coming
    from people from France.

    BTW this "I studied French for fifteen years" again
    rudily awakens my BS meter. As you so often do. I
    don't know what the exact meaning is of your 'studied',

    You could have asked for details before turning on
    the "BS Meter". Or you could have just researched
    the r.m.c.r archive where I answered the same
    question at least once before.

    I started taking French lessons before I was 5 with
    a French born and educated lady. In the part of the
    world where i was born it was common practice for
    middle class professional families to have their kids
    start learning French and/or German at the earliest
    possible age.

    The lessons were quite serious, 3 2-hour sessions
    every week, grammar, conversation, reading and
    writing, vocabulary, literature. Over 15 years I read
    most of the French literature from Rutebeuf and
    Francois Villon all the way through contemporary
    20th century writers, poets and philosophers,
    writing essays about every work I read, etc.. My
    teacher had degrees from Sorbonne and from
    l'École Normale Supérieure and was very strict
    and demanding, so much so that after studying
    with her for 15 years I was pretty much fed up
    with French literature and devoted increasingly
    more time to English, German and Italian.

    but on previous occasions you have said you
    went to a School of Music for twenty years,
    which was kind of puzzling too.

    Puzzling to you because you do not have the
    context. We had music schools at all levels,
    starting from kindergarten and all the way to
    conservatory level, in parallel to the regular
    school system. One could enroll in a single
    track school, i.e. take all the classes under
    one roof (music as well as all other topics),
    or enroll in the music section only and then
    attend a regular school for general education.

    I took the parallel track approach since my
    parents wanted me to become a pianist,
    while I had other interests -- e.g. Physics
    and Math. I attended a music school for
    just the music education, and enrolled in
    one of the top STEM schools for general
    education.

    What school has students linger for twenty
    years?

    Read what I wrote above. And you should
    also read about the education framework
    and systems on the other side of the Iron
    Curtain -- well documented and understood.

    Add fifteen years of French to this,

    Not "add". In parallel. The French lessons
    were privately tutored. English I learned
    officially in high school, although by the
    time I took it in 5th grade I was already
    reading Fielding, Dickens, Wilde and
    Shaw.

    and you also claim to have studied physics,

    I did. I was enrolled in a STEM school
    with a focus on Physics. In 10th grade
    I switched however to another STEM
    school focused on Math for just one
    year, in order make contact with one
    girl I liked. Then I went back to the
    Physics school. After high school I
    enrolled in Physics at the university,
    etc.. as well as in the piano program
    at the conservatory.

    so we are to understand you have spent
    at least forty years in advanced studies?

    ROTFL! You do not seem to grasp the
    notion people can do or learn more
    than one topic at the same time?

    Needless to say virtually no one
    talks so much about his credentials
    as you do,

    Stupid again. This is my life, I don't
    claim any "credit" for it, and I don't
    present it as "credentials". You are
    again reading too much or too little
    or something else between lines.
    As usual, when one reads between
    lines one is far more likely than not
    to read one's own thoughts rather
    than what may be between the
    lines.

    but unfortunately your talking
    about your prowess

    Man, are you deranged! What "prowess"?

    This is my life, pure and simple. Nothing
    more, nothing less, and nothing else. I
    do concede however that it may not be
    obvious to many how to connect the
    dots. Here is a suggestion: take Tom
    Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, mix
    them together, and raise the result
    to the 10th power. If someone told
    me my life's history, I would likely
    find it difficult to believe it too.
    Sometimes life can be stranger
    than fiction.

    in any field does stretch credulity
    every single time.

    You need to exercise stretching,
    it helps keep one's body and mind
    flexible. Skiing too.

    Ah, the beauty of the internet,
    where everything one says is
    true!

    Everything I wrote about myself
    is verifiable and measurable. I
    could not care less if you or
    anyone else believe me.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Dec 3 04:51:17 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 3:54:51 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 12:17:50 PM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 2:02:07 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    3 Recently you enumerated various EU located
    RMCR posters and called them "imperial subjects".
    ROTFL!!! What part of "imperial subject" is "ethnic"?
    The EU part.

    The "EU" is an "ethnicity"? Wow!

    May I respectfully ask: where
    do you buy your gas?

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 3 05:03:57 2022
    I really don't think RMCR is that interested, so I am trying to keep this brief.
    You have a rather pompous way of talking about yourself and your stuff.
    I can read and speak French, too, and so do a bunch of other RMCRers.
    However, none of them say "I have studied French for fifteen years", followed by an enumeration of a bunch of status authors like the inevitable Proust.
    Etc ad inf.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Dec 3 05:13:17 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 5:04:00 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    I really don't think RMCR is that interested, so I am trying to keep this brief.

    Wow! Can you also try to be rational?

    You have a rather pompous way of
    talking about yourself and your stuff.

    So what? People have different styles
    and express themselves differetly. Are
    you appointing yourself as expression
    arbiter for this group ?!?

    I can read and speak French, too, and
    so do a bunch of other RMCRers.

    Great!

    However, none of them say "I have
    studied French for fifteen years",

    I answered a question from someone
    else -- possibly you, possibly Melmoth,
    possibly someone else. So what?

    followed by an enumeration of a
    bunch of status authors like the
    inevitable Proust.

    These are the authors people read
    when they study French literature.
    "Status" has nothing to do with it.

    You are really a basket case of
    prejudice, wokeism and hypocrisy.

    dk

    PS. To understand what pomposity
    really means please read Oscar's
    posts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Todd M. McComb on Sat Dec 3 19:58:54 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 7:32:22 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
    In article <568024af-398f-4f9b...@googlegroups.com>,
    Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
    And yet you couldn't change the music?

    I thought it was more notable that he
    had to wait & find out who was behind
    this terrible performance -- after he spent
    the previous thread here saying how terrible
    it was.

    It was a different symphony than the ones
    I had sampled earlier from the same cycle.

    Are you applying for membership in the
    BENFRADELUX Idiots' Club?

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to herstx@yahoo.com on Sun Dec 4 03:32:17 2022
    In article <568024af-398f-4f9b-8929-d8a87658a2dcn@googlegroups.com>,
    Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
    And yet you couldn't change the music?

    I thought it was more notable that he had to wait & find out who
    was behind this terrible performance -- after he spent the previous
    thread here saying how terrible it was.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to dan.koren@gmail.com on Sun Dec 4 04:14:32 2022
    In article <565f4ec7-895a-42fa-9b6c-002b4f9a79c9n@googlegroups.com>,
    Dan Koren <dan.koren@gmail.com> wrote:
    It was a different symphony than the ones I had sampled earlier
    from the same cycle.

    Good thing you posted then, I guess.

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sat Dec 3 20:21:24 2022
    On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 4:58:57 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:


    Are you applying for membership in the
    BENFRADELUX Idiots' Club?

    dk

    Everyone but you is a brainfucked idiot, Dick, why waste time even saying it? It goes without saying.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Dec 3 20:46:39 2022
    On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 8:21:27 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 4:58:57 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

    Are you applying for membership in the
    BENFRADELUX Idiots' Club?

    Everyone but you is a brainfucked idiot,
    Dick, why waste time even saying it?
    It goes without saying.

    At last we now agree on something!

    dk

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