• Any opinions about KV 482?

    From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 2 03:09:31 2022
    Thanks!

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Sun Oct 2 03:33:04 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 3:28:33 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:

    I am morally opposed to hunting.

    You do not enjoy hunting the
    composer, the conductor, or
    the soloist?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyoSLOlglw

    dk

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 2 03:28:30 2022
    I am morally opposed to hunting.

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sun Oct 2 04:46:40 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 11:09:34 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    Thanks!

    I've just read The Bear for the first time, and the third movement reminded me of this passage

    Old Ben’s scent drifted forward again along the streaming blackness of air, but Sam’s eyes were probably open again on that profound look which saw further than them or the hut, further than the death of a bear and the dying of a dog. Then they went
    on, toward the long wailing of the horn and the shots which seemed each to linger intact somewhere in the thick streaming air until the next spaced report joined and blended with it, to the lighted house, the bright streaming windows, the quiet faces as
    Boon entered, bloody and quite calm, carrying the bundled coat. He laid Lion, blood coat and all, on his stale sheetless pallet bed which not even Ash, as deft in the house as a woman, could ever make smooth.

    My head is full of thoughts about Falkner's moral point of view in the novella. And of course, the sound that Falkner describes is so far from Mozart's idealisation, beautification, of hunting culture in the third movement of 482. The music is hunt-
    laundering.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Sun Oct 2 04:50:45 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 4:46:43 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:

    The music is hunt-laundering.

    ?!?

    Here's some real hunting music for you:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IRP4GO1NyA

    dk

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 2 04:50:34 2022
    By the way, in the third movement there's something I've always loved. Just when you think you can't possibly have a minute more of this wretched hunt music, Mozart digs something out which seems totally unexpected -- at 26:46 here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hgaxI3JRgg&ab_channel=Am4d3usM0z4rt

    Listening to it just now, it seem quite an operatic thing to do, I'm sure he does something like it somewhere in one of the operas.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Sun Oct 2 04:52:32 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 4:46:43 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 11:09:34 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    Thanks!

    I've just read The Bear for the first time, and the
    third movement reminded me of this passage

    Old Ben’s scent drifted forward again along the
    streaming blackness of air, but Sam’s eyes were
    probably open again on that profound look which
    saw further than them or the hut, further than the
    death of a bear and the dying of a dog. Then they
    went on, toward the long wailing of the horn and
    the shots which seemed each to linger intact
    somewhere in the thick streaming air until the
    next spaced report joined and blended with it, to
    the lighted house, the bright streaming windows,
    the quiet faces as Boon entered, bloody and quite
    calm, carrying the bundled coat. He laid Lion, blood
    coat and all, on his stale sheetless pallet bed which
    not even Ash, as deft in the house as a woman, could
    ever make smooth.

    I cannot stand Faulkner.

    dk

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sun Oct 2 05:00:18 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 12:52:34 PM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 4:46:43 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 11:09:34 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    Thanks!

    I've just read The Bear for the first time, and the
    third movement reminded me of this passage

    Old Ben’s scent drifted forward again along the
    streaming blackness of air, but Sam’s eyes were
    probably open again on that profound look which
    saw further than them or the hut, further than the
    death of a bear and the dying of a dog. Then they
    went on, toward the long wailing of the horn and
    the shots which seemed each to linger intact
    somewhere in the thick streaming air until the
    next spaced report joined and blended with it, to
    the lighted house, the bright streaming windows,
    the quiet faces as Boon entered, bloody and quite
    calm, carrying the bundled coat. He laid Lion, blood
    coat and all, on his stale sheetless pallet bed which
    not even Ash, as deft in the house as a woman, could
    ever make smooth.
    I cannot stand Faulkner.

    dk

    Well I'm just exploring him for the first time now.

    Here's hunting music style français -- at least if Luc Ferrari's Presque Rien is music.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNx73XaxOFc&ab_channel=TOUTMONCIN%C3%89MA%7CLECIN%C3%89MAVUPARVOUS%2CPOURVOUS%21

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Sun Oct 2 05:24:07 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 1:50:37 PM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
    By the way, in the third movement there's something I've always loved. Just when you think you can't possibly have a minute more of this wretched hunt music, Mozart digs something out which seems totally unexpected -- at 26:46 here

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hgaxI3JRgg&ab_channel=Am4d3usM0z4rt

    Listening to it just now, it seem quite an operatic thing to do, I'm sure he does something like it somewhere in one of the operas.

    Don't expect DK to understand what you're talking about when you say 'hunt music', he's totally ignorant on all counts.
    You're right, there is a huntsy atmosphere around 482, it's in E flat, the ideal key for the orchestra of the era up to LvB's Eroica and Fifth PC. Often these E flat major concertos or symphonies start with a couple of big curtain opening chords, as if
    the composer is wallowing in the ease and splendour of this easy keu.
    Out of the four WAM horn concertos, three are in E flat major, if you're looking for more forest / wood sounds.
    The passage you highlight in the finale is indeed redolent of the Nozze, which Mozart was composing at the same time.

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sun Oct 2 07:34:17 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 4:16:11 PM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 5:24:10 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:

    Don't expect DK to understand what you're
    talking about when you say 'hunt music',
    he's totally ignorant on all counts.
    However my skull is not filled with
    holey Gouda like yours.

    dk

    You really should consider stopping the relentless ethnic stereotyping (including such weird generalizations as Russian Piano School, CJK fiddlers, but also the escargot and nazi BS).
    It's not 1950 anymore.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sun Oct 2 07:16:08 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 5:24:10 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:

    Don't expect DK to understand what you're
    talking about when you say 'hunt music',
    he's totally ignorant on all counts.

    However my skull is not filled with
    holey Gouda like yours.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sun Oct 2 08:12:57 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 7:34:20 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:

    You really should consider stopping the relentless ethnic
    stereotyping (including such weird generalizations as
    Russian Piano School,

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=%22russian+piano+school%22 https://www.hayroudinoff.com/single-post/Russian-Piano-School https://www.amazon.com/Russian-school-piano-playing-Music/dp/5714008251 https://www.amazon.com/Russian-Piano-School-Pianists-Volumes/dp/B000001HBR https://www.amazon.com/Russian-Piano-School-Conservatoire-Professors/dp/1871082889
    https://www.barnesandnoble.com/mobile/w/the-russian-piano-school-christopher-barnes/1111957476
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326514202_The_Influence_of_Russian_Piano_School_on_Chinese_Piano_Art

    Did you really think I coined the phrase "Russian Piano School" ?!?
    Make friends with Google and you will find plenty more references.

    But wait ...... could there be a Russian Violin School as well?

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=%22russian+violin+school%22

    OMG !!!

    Apparently there is even a French Violin School:

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=%22french+violin+school%22

    and a Belgian one as well:

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=%22belgian+violin+school%22

    They must all be just some fiction in my mind, right?

    I regret to report neither Google nor Amazon found any
    trace of a Dutch violin school. My sincerest condolences!

    dk

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to Herman on Sun Oct 2 08:37:11 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 1:24:10 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:

    The passage you highlight in the finale is indeed redolent of the Nozze, which Mozart was composing at the same time.

    Yes, thanks for these thoughts. I suppose it's a bit like the reconciliation of Mr and Mrs Almaviva in the garden.

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Oct 2 15:11:15 2022
    On 10/2/22 3:09 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
    Thanks!

    I love it.:-)

    Bob Harper

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  • From Paul Alsing@21:1/5 to dan....@gmail.com on Sun Oct 2 16:51:25 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 3:33:07 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 3:28:33 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:

    I am morally opposed to hunting.
    You do not enjoy hunting the
    composer, the conductor, or
    the soloist?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyoSLOlglw

    dk

    https://tomlehrersongs.com/

    Here you go... all songs and albums available for free downloads... as per Tom Lehrer...

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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 2 17:24:22 2022
    On Sun, 02 Oct 2022 03:09:31 -0700, Dan Koren wrote
    (in article<3d760a52-0b27-455e-9f93-2327ac3e040dn@googlegroups.com>):

    Thanks!

    My opinion is to call it what it is and not be
    cryptic about it; you're talking about Mozart's
    piano concerto 22? It starts out dandy, andthen
    this dour piano starts in after a minute or two.
    Why? maybe he only wrote it likethat because he
    was forced by the conventions of the time, and a
    genuinely HIP interpretation would leave out the
    piano and play it like the symphony it wants to
    be.

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Sun Oct 2 23:47:05 2022
    On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 2:24:30 AM UTC+2, Pluted Pup wrote:


    My opinion is to call it what it is and not be
    cryptic about it; you're talking about Mozart's
    piano concerto 22? It starts out dandy, andthen
    this dour piano starts in after a minute or two.
    Why? maybe he only wrote it like that because he
    was forced by the conventions of the time, and a
    genuinely HIP interpretation would leave out the
    piano and play it like the symphony it wants to
    be.

    Really? Dour? It's probably my favorite WAM concerto, I think it's a majestic piece. It's possibly his most 'classical' concerto of the mature POCs, together with the Bflat 595. No Angst or Empfindsamkeit.
    It doesn't want to be a symphony. Listen to Mozart's symphonies of the time and you'll find they are quite different.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sun Oct 2 23:57:01 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 11:47:08 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 2:24:30 AM UTC+2, Pluted Pup wrote:


    My opinion is to call it what it is and not be
    cryptic about it; you're talking about Mozart's
    piano concerto 22? It starts out dandy, andthen
    this dour piano starts in after a minute or two.
    Why? maybe he only wrote it like that because he
    was forced by the conventions of the time, and a
    genuinely HIP interpretation would leave out the
    piano and play it like the symphony it wants to
    be.

    Really? Dour? It's probably my favorite
    WAM concerto, I think it's a majestic
    piece. It's possibly his most 'classical'
    concerto of the mature POCs, together
    with the Bflat 595. No Angst or Empfindsamkeit.

    We finally agree on something. And it
    definitely doesn't want to be a symphony.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to pnal...@gmail.com on Sun Oct 2 23:29:09 2022
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 4:51:28 PM UTC-7, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 3:33:07 AM UTC-7, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, October 2, 2022 at 3:28:33 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:

    I am morally opposed to hunting.

    You do not enjoy hunting the
    composer, the conductor, or
    the soloist?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyoSLOlglw

    https://tomlehrersongs.com/

    Here you go... all songs and albums available
    for free downloads... as per Tom Lehrer...

    Thanks! I've had them all since the day they were
    released. When my son was 5, we received one
    day a frantic phone call from his kindergarten
    teacher who was in a panic after hearing him
    sing during a break "Oh, the white folks hate
    the black folks, And the black folks hate the
    white folks", etc.... You get the idea.

    dk

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  • From Johannes Roehl@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Oct 3 02:43:19 2022
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 3. Oktober 2022 um 08:47:08 UTC+2:
    On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 2:24:30 AM UTC+2, Pluted Pup wrote:

    My opinion is to call it what it is and not be
    cryptic about it; you're talking about Mozart's
    piano concerto 22? It starts out dandy, andthen
    this dour piano starts in after a minute or two.
    Why? maybe he only wrote it like that because he
    was forced by the conventions of the time, and a
    genuinely HIP interpretation would leave out the
    piano and play it like the symphony it wants to
    be.
    Really? Dour? It's probably my favorite WAM concerto, I think it's a majestic piece. It's possibly his most 'classical' concerto of the mature POCs, together with the Bflat 595. No Angst or Empfindsamkeit.
    It doesn't want to be a symphony. Listen to Mozart's symphonies of the time and you'll find they are quite different.

    I love it. But I think it can be fairly characterized as "symphonic" in a sense although the very few symphonies Mozart wrote at that time (literally none, the closest is the "Prague" about a year later) are different.
    It is also quite innovative with the strong minor-major contrast in the slow movement and some passages almost sounding like a wind serenade (the only piano concerto with similarly prominent woodwinds is the c minor) and the slow sections in the "hunting
    finale". As Mozart was basically inventing/expanding the genre in a huge way it is difficult so tell what is "classical"; they all are but they are the exemplary pieces of what we mean with the term, so it's not very informative ;)

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to parr...@web.de on Mon Oct 3 02:51:43 2022
    On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 11:43:22 AM UTC+2, parr...@web.de wrote:

    As Mozart was basically inventing/expanding the genre in a huge way it is difficult so tell what is "classical"; they all are but they are the exemplary pieces of what we mean with the term, so it's not very informative ;)

    In meant in terms of ethos. That's why I said no Angst or Empfindsamkeit, as in 466, 488 and 491 (D minor, A major and C minor).
    And yeah, in C minor and E major (three flats each) the composer could use the full complement of winds with maximum flexibility. That's why they are so prominent.

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 3 03:14:12 2022
    Worth hearing Symphony 19/i with K452/i in mind

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUv3rRUUWWw&ab_channel=Am4d3usM0z4rt

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Oct 3 14:02:35 2022
    On 10/2/22 11:47 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 2:24:30 AM UTC+2, Pluted Pup wrote:


    My opinion is to call it what it is and not be
    cryptic about it; you're talking about Mozart's
    piano concerto 22? It starts out dandy, andthen
    this dour piano starts in after a minute or two.
    Why? maybe he only wrote it like that because he
    was forced by the conventions of the time, and a
    genuinely HIP interpretation would leave out the
    piano and play it like the symphony it wants to
    be.

    Really? Dour? It's probably my favorite WAM concerto, I think it's a majestic piece. It's possibly his most 'classical' concerto of the mature POCs, together with the Bflat 595. No Angst or Empfindsamkeit.
    It doesn't want to be a symphony. Listen to Mozart's symphonies of the time and you'll find they are quite different.

    Yeah, I didn't understand that comment either. As someone said, the slow passage in the Finale could be a trial (but what a trial!) run for the
    Count's 'Contessa, perdono'(one of the most sublime moments in all of
    music). Favorite? Well, right up there, for sure, but K459 and K503 are
    pretty good as well, at least to my ears. And no, it doesn't want to be
    a symphony.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 3 21:26:27 2022
    It seems that once you get the connection to Figaro in your head, it changes your perception. The whole thing now seems like a wordless opera buffa to me.

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to Bob Harper on Mon Oct 3 21:18:18 2022
    On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 10:02:40 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:
    On 10/2/22 11:47 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, October 3, 2022 at 2:24:30 AM UTC+2, Pluted Pup wrote:


    My opinion is to call it what it is and not be
    cryptic about it; you're talking about Mozart's
    piano concerto 22? It starts out dandy, andthen
    this dour piano starts in after a minute or two.
    Why? maybe he only wrote it like that because he
    was forced by the conventions of the time, and a
    genuinely HIP interpretation would leave out the
    piano and play it like the symphony it wants to
    be.

    Really? Dour? It's probably my favorite WAM concerto, I think it's a majestic piece. It's possibly his most 'classical' concerto of the mature POCs, together with the Bflat 595. No Angst or Empfindsamkeit.
    It doesn't want to be a symphony. Listen to Mozart's symphonies of the time and you'll find they are quite different.
    Yeah, I didn't understand that comment either. As someone said, the slow passage in the Finale could be a trial (but what a trial!) run for the Count's 'Contessa, perdono'(one of the most sublime moments in all of music). Favorite? Well, right up there, for sure, but K459 and K503 are pretty good as well, at least to my ears. And no, it doesn't want to be
    a symphony.

    Bob Harper

    That passage in the third movement - let’s call it the perdono interlude, is I think scored for wind band! Just surreal. In the middle of all this hunt stuff, you get a wind band! And yet, the poetry of it is so good that it all sounds natural.

    I just saw that wiki makes the connection to perdono so, great minds think alike!

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Tue Oct 4 10:53:54 2022
    On 10/3/22 9:26 PM, Mandryka wrote:
    It seems that once you get the connection to Figaro in your head, it changes your perception. The whole thing now seems like a wordless opera buffa to me.

    I can go with that.

    Bob Harper

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