• Re: Bach WTC - what are the best versions?

    From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Wed Oct 26 18:09:25 2022
    On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 8:06:46 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    I haven't seen a thread on this for a while so hoping for an update. Presumably we include harpsichord, clavichord and various types of firewood, though my primary interest is the piano.

    Several complete piano versions from the likes of Richter, Feinberg, Gould, Gavrilov, Fischer, Tureck, Schiff and others........

    So who are your choices to navigate us through this major work?

    https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=29201.0

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 04:13:01 2023
    Just listening to the WTC this morning. I made a rag, tag and bobtail playlist on YT of Book 1, containing Gavrilov, Backhaus, Gieseking, Gould, Nikolayeva, Demus, Richter and Myra Hess. Can't remember how I put it together but it must have been
    individual P&Fs that caught my fancy in what was available on YT.

    Can we update this thread for whatever we have available in 2023? May not be much different.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 04:58:59 2023
    Op zaterdag 11 maart 2023 om 13:13:04 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    Just listening to the WTC this morning. I made a rag, tag and bobtail playlist on YT of Book 1, containing Gavrilov, Backhaus, Gieseking, Gould, Nikolayeva, Demus, Richter and Myra Hess. Can't remember how I put it together but it must have been
    individual P&Fs that caught my fancy in what was available on YT.

    Can we update this thread for whatever we have available in 2023? May not be much different.

    Update in what sense? Posting our favorites per P&F?

    Henk

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 07:28:04 2023
    Op zaterdag 11 maart 2023 om 16:16:27 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 12:59:02 UTC, HT wrote:
    Update in what sense? Posting our favorites per P&F?

    Henk
    Sure, if you'd like to. I imagine this is a work that most of us come back to at one time or another.

    I play a P&F every day - in isolation (suspecting that I'm the only one enjoying that moment). I'll see what I can do with the list.

    Henk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 07:16:24 2023
    On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 12:59:02 UTC, HT wrote:
    Update in what sense? Posting our favorites per P&F?

    Henk

    Sure, if you'd like to. I imagine this is a work that most of us come back to at one time or another.

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  • From Alex Brown@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sat Mar 11 16:34:59 2023
    On 11/03/2023 12:13, Andy Evans wrote:
    Just listening to the WTC this morning. I made a rag, tag and bobtail playlist on YT of Book 1, containing Gavrilov, Backhaus, Gieseking, Gould, Nikolayeva, Demus, Richter and Myra Hess. Can't remember how I put it together but it must have been
    individual P&Fs that caught my fancy in what was available on YT.

    Can we update this thread for whatever we have available in 2023? May not be much different.

    Apart from the usual suspects the new (to me) recording which really
    impressed me was Koroliov's. Characterful without jumping the shark.


    --
    - Alex Brown

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 09:20:59 2023
    Can we update this thread for whatever we have available in 2023? May not be much different.


    Enrico Baiano's and Naova Otsuka's new recordings are at least interesting, I've not really had time to listen to them attentively but I can see they're interesting and I have friends who say they think they're actually quite good. Phantasm have
    released viol transcriptions but I haven't heard them, and Tzimon Barto's is about to be rereleased.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 09:18:16 2023
    On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 15:28:06 UTC, HT wrote:

    I play a P&F every day - in isolation (suspecting that I'm the only one enjoying that moment). I'll see what I can do with the list.

    Henk

    You have a kindred spirit in Hilary Hahn and no doubt many others. Very healthy.

    I don't use any streaming service, so I have to make do with YouTube which doesn't have the best choice here. I went through my playlist again and deleted all Richter and a few more Gould. That left mostly Gavrilov, Demus, Nikolayeva, some Gould and odd
    ones by Hess, Gieseking and Backhaus. That's Book 1. Haven't made a playlist for Book 2 yet.

    On CD I have only Fischer, Feinberg and Gould which I bought many years ago. I'll have to make a playlist of them in iTunes and see how that goes. May well need adding to.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Sat Mar 11 10:02:36 2023
    On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 17:21:01 UTC, Mandryka wrote:
    Can we update this thread for whatever we have available in 2023? May not be much different.
    Enrico Baiano's and Naova Otsuka's new recordings are at least interesting, I've not really had time to listen to them attentively but I can see they're interesting and I have friends who say they think they're actually quite good. Phantasm have
    released viol transcriptions but I haven't heard them, and Tzimon Barto's is about to be rereleased.

    Thanks for that - will have to check them.

    Meanwhile I made a first draft of a YouTube playlist for Book 2. Demidenko, then Anderszewski then Hewitt on Euro Arts. Sounds pretty good at first listen, but I've only sampled bits of it.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 12:34:11 2023
    Bach WTC book I piano version.

    First round. Listened to all the BWV 846 fugues I could find and eliminated the performers I didn't like and hadn't heard of before (with one exception). Among the better know I won't return to Aimard, Hewitt, HJLim, Jando, Jarrett, Koroliov, Lang Lang,
    Margulis, McGregor, Pollini, Richter, Schiff, Sokolov.

    Second round. I'll next compare the performances on YT of BWV 867 prelude and fugue. It will take some time.

    Henk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 14:36:20 2023
    On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 20:34:14 UTC, HT wrote:
    Bach WTC book I piano version.
    First round. Listened to all the BWV 846 fugues I could find and eliminated the performers I didn't like and hadn't heard of before (with one exception). Among the better know I won't return to Aimard, Hewitt, HJLim, Jando, Jarrett, Koroliov, Lang
    Lang, Margulis, McGregor, Pollini, Richter, Schiff, Sokolov.
    Henk

    Agree with all those except the occasional Hewitt. I don't find Richter at all good in these, McGregor is hopeless, Schiff is enormously overrated etc etc. Gould is occasionally interesting when you need a shot of adrenalin, but he's so pedantic and his
    staccato is tiresome.

    I have no idea if Bach played with elegance and charm. He was a genius, so why not? Whatever the answer to that is, I like my Bach played with as much elegance and charm as can be achieved on a modern piano. Why not?

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sat Mar 11 15:39:20 2023
    On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 4:13:04 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:

    Just listening to the WTC this morning. I made a rag, tag and bobtail playlist on YT of Book 1, containing Gavrilov, Backhaus, Gieseking,
    Gould, Nikolayeva, Demus, Richter and Myra Hess. Can't remember
    how I put it together but it must have been individual P&Fs that caught
    my fancy in what was available on YT.

    Can we update this thread for whatever we have available in 2023?
    May not be much different.

    Playlist link please?

    TIA

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sat Mar 11 15:42:05 2023
    On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 9:18:19 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:

    I don't use any streaming service, so I have to make do
    with YouTube which doesn't have the best choice here.

    There is a lot of "hidden" material on YT that does not
    pop up immediately on common searches, some of
    which can show up by using magic incantation
    phrases ;-)

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 11 15:52:15 2023
    On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 12:34:14 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Bach WTC book I piano version.

    First round. Listened to all the BWV
    846 fugues I could find and eliminated
    the performers I didn't like and hadn't
    heard of before (with one exception).
    Among the better know I won't return
    to Aimard, Hewitt, HJLim, Jando, Jarrett,
    Koroliov, Lang Lang, Margulis, McGregor,
    Pollini, Richter, Schiff, Sokolov.

    Second round. I'll next compare the
    performances on YT of BWV 867
    prelude and fugue. It will take
    some time.

    It would be more useful to list the
    versions you liked. As Herman and
    John Gavin like to say, highlight the
    "positive".

    It would also be more useful if you
    could state (however briefly) the
    reasons why you liked a version
    or not.

    dk

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sat Mar 11 20:24:02 2023
    On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 10:36:23 PM UTC, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Saturday, 11 March 2023 at 20:34:14 UTC, HT wrote:
    Bach WTC book I piano version.
    First round. Listened to all the BWV 846 fugues I could find and eliminated the performers I didn't like and hadn't heard of before (with one exception). Among the better know I won't return to Aimard, Hewitt, HJLim, Jando, Jarrett, Koroliov, Lang
    Lang, Margulis, McGregor, Pollini, Richter, Schiff, Sokolov.
    Henk

    Agree with all those except the occasional Hewitt.

    I have no idea if Bach played with elegance and charm. He was a genius, so why not? Whatever the answer to that is, I like my Bach played with as much elegance and charm as can be achieved on a modern piano. Why not?

    Elegance and charm was Hewitt’s aim in the 2008 recording so I’m not surprised you say what you said.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Sat Mar 11 21:18:14 2023
    On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 8:24:07 PM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
    On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 10:36:23 PM UTC, Andy Evans wrote:

    I have no idea if Bach played with elegance and charm.

    Elegance and charm was Hewitt’s aim in the 2008
    recording so I’m not surprised you say what you said.

    Elegance and charm are the hallmark
    of Harriet Cohen's WTC readings:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCeG10ZFxww

    Ditto Evelyne Crochet:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFY9mj6m548

    Take your pick.

    dk

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 01:25:48 2023
    Op zondag 12 maart 2023 om 00:52:18 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    It would be more useful to list the
    versions you liked. As Herman and
    John Gavin like to say, highlight the
    "positive".

    As indicated in my post, this is highlighting the positive. All the rest I do more or less like. The next step is to determine who I like best. The third step will be to determine who of the ones I like best plays ta BWV 8xx the best - in my humble
    opinion of course.

    It would also be more useful if you
    could state (however briefly) the
    reasons why you liked a version
    or not.

    I will certainly do so in the third round.

    Good to hear you want all things to be done properly. As long as I'm a member of RMCR, I have had this feeling that you'd make a great moderator.

    Henk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 12 03:13:50 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 3:11:57 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 3:00:19 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:

    Proof of Bach’s transcendental greatness is
    that such radically different interpretations
    as Landowska and Feinberg can be excellent
    and compelling.

    How about HJ Lim and John Lewis?

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQKqPVtrEiKM1HGAMiZLvTlSwwNNdugUy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22yLbGU3obA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH7LJO5H7oI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTEUs4wo-9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9SarP5SYSE

    PS. Landowska's is not an "interpretation". She
    said many times she played Bach as he meant
    to be played. IIRC she advised Herbert Samuel
    to play Bach on the harpsichord. Reportedly
    Samuel said "But, Mme Landowska, I don't
    like the harpsichord". To which Landowska
    replied "very well, Mr.Samuel, you play Bach
    your way, and I play Bach his way!". What
    an arrogant bitch!

    That kitten should have smacked her face!

    https://64.media.tumblr.com/3358de2116543a709b73a582eb24daf3/tumblr_inline_osjsnbuHWC1ubcbin_540.jpg

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to JohnGavin on Sun Mar 12 03:11:54 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 3:00:19 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:

    Proof of Bach’s transcendental greatness is
    that such radically different interpretations
    as Landowska and Feinberg can be excellent
    and compelling.


    How about HJ Lim and John Lewis?

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQKqPVtrEiKM1HGAMiZLvTlSwwNNdugUy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22yLbGU3obA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH7LJO5H7oI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTEUs4wo-9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9SarP5SYSE

    dk

    PS. Landowska's is not an "interpretation". She
    said many times she played Bach as he meant
    to be played. IIRC she advised Herbert Samuel
    to play Bach on the harpsichord. Reportedly
    Samuel said "But, Mme Landowska, I don't
    like the harpsichord". To which Landowska
    replied "very well, Mr.Samuel, you play Bach
    your way, and I play Bach his way!". What
    an arrogant bitch!

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 01:58:50 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 1:25:51 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 12 maart 2023 om 00:52:18 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    It would be more useful to list the
    versions you liked. As Herman and
    John Gavin like to say, highlight the
    "positive".

    As indicated in my post, this is highlighting
    the positive. All the rest I do more or less
    like. The next step is to determine who I
    like best.

    Can you share your criteria? Otherwise we
    may not be able to understand why you
    picked whom you picked.

    The third step will be to determine who of
    the ones I like best plays ta BWV 8xx the
    best - in my humble opinion of course.

    It would also be more useful if you
    could state (however briefly) the
    reasons why you liked a version
    or not.

    I will certainly do so in the third round.

    Thanks!

    Good to hear you want all things to
    be done properly.

    I've always encouraged people to do
    things properly.

    As long as I'm a member of RMCR,
    I have had this feeling that you'd
    make a great moderator.

    I have no interest in being a moderator.
    I prefer to be a catalyst. Melmoth would
    make an ideal moderator. He knows a
    thing or two about "la constitution". It
    was the first question he asked when
    he found out Arrau did not buy him a
    ticket to this forum.

    dk

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  • From JohnGavin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 03:00:17 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 5:25:51 AM UTC-4, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 12 maart 2023 om 00:52:18 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
    It would be more useful to list the
    versions you liked. As Herman and
    John Gavin like to say, highlight the
    "positive".
    As indicated in my post, this is highlighting the positive. All the rest I do more or less like. The next step is to determine who I like best. The third step will be to determine who of the ones I like best plays ta BWV 8xx the best - in my humble
    opinion of course.
    It would also be more useful if you
    could state (however briefly) the
    reasons why you liked a version
    or not.
    I will certainly do so in the third round.

    Good to hear you want all things to be done properly. As long as I'm a member of RMCR, I have had this feeling that you'd make a great moderator.

    Henk

    Proof of Bach’s transcendental greatness is that such radically different interpretations as Landowska and Feinberg can be excellent and compelling.

    Two very fine vinyl sets that didn’t survive the CD era are Robert Edward Smith for Book 1 and Anthony Newman for Book 2 (on ColumbiaLPs).

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 12 03:27:52 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:13:53 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:

    IIRC she advised Herbert Samuel
    to play Bach on the harpsichord. Reportedly
    Samuel said "But, Mme Landowska, I don't
    like the harpsichord". To which Landowska
    replied "very well, Mr.Samuel, you play Bach
    your way, and I play Bach his way!". What
    an arrogant bitch!
    That kitten should have smacked her face!

    None of this is true (as is to be expected from the man who doesn't know a thing), and Samuel's first name was Harold. Not Herbert - just a tiny indication of who's talking here.

    For the WTC first book there is an excellent series of youtube videos of each P&F by good harpsichordists posted by the Netherlands Bach Society and these performers talk about the P&F they do in accompanying videos.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbZkfxboS7Y&t=174s

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Herman on Sun Mar 12 03:29:18 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:27:54 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:

    That kitten should have smacked her face!

    And again, violence against female performers advocated, no surprise here.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 03:31:54 2023
    Op zondag 12 maart 2023 om 10:58:53 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    As long as I'm a member of RMCR,
    I have had this feeling that you'd
    make a great moderator.
    I have no interest in being a moderator.
    I prefer to be a catalyst.

    Our loss, of course ...

    Melmoth would
    make an ideal moderator.

    He has the wisdom to abstain as long as there are catalysts on this forum.

    Henk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sun Mar 12 03:37:53 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 3:29:20 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:27:54 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:

    That kitten should have smacked her face!

    And again, violence against female
    performers advocated, no surprise
    here.

    ROTFL !!! If you think that would be
    "violence" you really don't know a
    thing about kittens. You claim to
    be a violinist, however you are
    dumber than a violist.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sun Mar 12 04:27:15 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 3:29:20 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:27:54 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:

    That kitten should have smacked her face!

    And again, violence against female
    performers advocated, no surprise
    here.

    Armies of kittens should smack the
    faces of all plucksichord players,
    regardless of gender. Fiddlers
    should follow next. ;-)

    dk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 04:30:37 2023
    Here's my YouTube playlist. It was made up in function of the individual P&Fs that were available.

    What's obvious is that there are a number of good pianists here, but that the choice varies very much with each individual P&F. Often a question of speed - I chose the speeds that seemed to sit well with each P&F. And also touch - even Gould can be
    sensitive to touch on occasion. Both Gould and Nikolayeva "take apart" the voices. Sometimes this works, but I generally chose more flowing versions from Gieseking, Demus and others.

    Book 1
    1. Backhaus
    2. Gavrilov
    3. Hess
    4. Gieseking
    5. Gavrilov
    6. Demus
    7. Demus
    8. Gieseking
    9. Gieseking
    10. Nikolayeva
    11. Demus
    12. Demus
    13. Gieseking
    14. Demus
    15. Demus
    16. Gieseking
    17. Gieseking
    18. Gieseking
    19. Gieseking
    20. Nikolayeva
    21. Gould
    22. Gieseking
    23. Gould
    24. Gieseking

    Book 2
    1. Nikolayeva
    2. Demidenko
    3. Demidenko
    4. Otto
    5. Demidenko
    6. Nikolayeva
    7. Anderszewski
    8. Nikolayeva
    9. Anderszewski
    10. Nikolayeva
    11. Anderszewski
    12. Anderszewski
    13. Hewitt
    14. Hewitt
    15. Hewitt
    16. Hewitt
    17. Hewitt
    18. Nikolayeva
    19. Nikolayeva
    20. Hewitt
    21. Nikolayeva
    22. Nikolayeva
    23. Hewitt
    24. Anderszewski

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  • From Lawrence Kart@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 12 09:02:41 2023
    On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 11:51:42 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 8:20:46 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 16:12:30 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    You must listen only to HJ Lim, of course.
    Please, no! She would be close to the bottom
    of the list - impulsive shapeless playing with
    a lot of micro-pauses before notes.
    You have been excommunicated, effective
    immediately! ;-)

    Now seriously, HJ Lim is the only pianist
    who makes the WTC sound completely
    fresh, as if it were improvised on the spot
    like jazz. Compared to her, everyone else
    sounds square, dull, wooden and boring.
    Even Richter, Fischer, Gulda and Feinberg.

    From the mainstream performances, the
    only one I can still tolerate is Feltsman.

    I also like John Lewis + MJQ.

    dk

    Landowska -- dead in the water.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sun Mar 12 08:41:45 2023
    Thanks! Wouldn't it be easier and simpler
    to just make the list visible on YouTube?

    Otherwise, there seems tol be very little
    variety. Bartely half a dozen names that
    repeat themselves.

    Regarding your earlier comment about
    liking "elegant and charming" versions,
    which of these do you find charming
    in particular?

    dk

    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:30:40 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:

    Here's my YouTube playlist. It was made up in
    function of the individual P&Fs that were available.

    What's obvious is that there are a number of good
    pianists here, but that the choice varies very much
    with each individual P&F. Often a question of speed
    - I chose the speeds that seemed to sit well with each
    P&F. And also touch - even Gould can be sensitive to
    touch on occasion. Both Gould and Nikolayeva "take
    apart" the voices. Sometimes this works, but I generally
    chose more flowing versions from Gieseking, Demus
    and others.

    Book 1
    1. Backhaus
    2. Gavrilov
    3. Hess
    4. Gieseking
    5. Gavrilov
    6. Demus
    7. Demus
    8. Gieseking
    9. Gieseking
    10. Nikolayeva
    11. Demus
    12. Demus
    13. Gieseking
    14. Demus
    15. Demus
    16. Gieseking
    17. Gieseking
    18. Gieseking
    19. Gieseking
    20. Nikolayeva
    21. Gould
    22. Gieseking
    23. Gould
    24. Gieseking

    Book 2
    1. Nikolayeva
    2. Demidenko
    3. Demidenko
    4. Otto
    5. Demidenko
    6. Nikolayeva
    7. Anderszewski
    8. Nikolayeva
    9. Anderszewski
    10. Nikolayeva
    11. Anderszewski
    12. Anderszewski
    13. Hewitt
    14. Hewitt
    15. Hewitt
    16. Hewitt
    17. Hewitt
    18. Nikolayeva
    19. Nikolayeva
    20. Hewitt
    21. Nikolayeva
    22. Nikolayeva
    23. Hewitt
    24. Anderszewski

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sun Mar 12 09:31:01 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:30:40 AM UTC, Andy Evans wrote:
    Here's my YouTube playlist. It was made up in function of the individual P&Fs that were available.

    What's obvious is that there are a number of good pianists here, but that the choice varies very much with each individual P&F. Often a question of speed - I chose the speeds that seemed to sit well with each P&F. And also touch - even Gould can be
    sensitive to touch on occasion. Both Gould and Nikolayeva "take apart" the voices. Sometimes this works, but I generally chose more flowing versions from Gieseking, Demus and others.

    Book 1
    1. Backhaus
    2. Gavrilov
    3. Hess
    4. Gieseking
    5. Gavrilov
    6. Demus
    7. Demus
    8. Gieseking
    9. Gieseking
    10. Nikolayeva
    11. Demus
    12. Demus
    13. Gieseking
    14. Demus
    15. Demus
    16. Gieseking
    17. Gieseking
    18. Gieseking
    19. Gieseking
    20. Nikolayeva
    21. Gould
    22. Gieseking
    23. Gould
    24. Gieseking

    Book 2
    1. Nikolayeva
    2. Demidenko
    3. Demidenko
    4. Otto
    5. Demidenko
    6. Nikolayeva
    7. Anderszewski
    8. Nikolayeva
    9. Anderszewski
    10. Nikolayeva
    11. Anderszewski
    12. Anderszewski
    13. Hewitt
    14. Hewitt
    15. Hewitt
    16. Hewitt
    17. Hewitt
    18. Nikolayeva
    19. Nikolayeva
    20. Hewitt
    21. Nikolayeva
    22. Nikolayeva
    23. Hewitt
    24. Anderszewski

    Who is Otto?

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Lawrence Kart on Sun Mar 12 09:18:55 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 9:02:44 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Kart wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 11:51:42 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 8:20:46 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 16:12:30 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    You must listen only to HJ Lim, of course.
    Please, no! She would be close to the bottom
    of the list - impulsive shapeless playing with
    a lot of micro-pauses before notes.
    You have been excommunicated, effective
    immediately! ;-)

    Now seriously, HJ Lim is the only pianist
    who makes the WTC sound completely
    fresh, as if it were improvised on the spot
    like jazz. Compared to her, everyone else
    sounds square, dull, wooden and boring.
    Even Richter, Fischer, Gulda and Feinberg.

    From the mainstream performances, the
    only one I can still tolerate is Feltsman.

    No longer sure I still like him.

    I also like John Lewis + MJQ.

    Landowska -- dead in the water.

    Not only dead, but poisoning the water.

    dk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Sun Mar 12 10:16:28 2023
    On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 16:31:04 UTC, Mandryka wrote:

    Who is Otto?

    Gerlinde Otto. She made a decent set without reaching the heights.
    "Professor at the Academy of Music in Weimar. In addition to her solo career, Gerlinde Otto is a versatile chamber musician and Lied-accompanist. She has been on the jury at international piano competitions and contributed to radio and television as well
    as CD recordings."

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sun Mar 12 10:25:09 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 5:16:31 PM UTC, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 16:31:04 UTC, Mandryka wrote:

    Who is Otto?

    Gerlinde Otto. She made a decent set without reaching the heights. "Professor at the Academy of Music in Weimar. In addition to her solo career, Gerlinde Otto is a versatile chamber musician and Lied-accompanist. She has been on the jury at international piano competitions and contributed to radio and television as
    well as CD recordings."

    Thanks.

    I've been listening to Naoya Otsuka today. It is elegant and charming -- but not what you're looking for because she uses a little organ. Very enjoyable for me though!

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 11:10:41 2023
    Not on YT afaik:
    Fellner. BWV 867 not on YT
    Hess. BWV 867 not on YT.
    Olafsson. BWV 867 not on YT.

    Add Gavrilov.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 11:04:27 2023
    BWV 867 P&F

    Performers who'll go to the next/last round:
    Barenboim. Plays very well and is far more interesting than I expected. Crochet. The ideal elegant version.
    Feinberg. Different from all the others. He proves that Bach and rubato go well together.
    Feltsman. An almost perfect modern version.
    Fischer. Perhaps my favourite version. In Belgium they would praise the "serenity" of his performance.
    Gould. Different from all the others. It's like he is dissecting a frog. Ishizaka. Disappointing, after an excellent performance of the fugue of BWV 846, but still interesting enough.
    Kempff. Excellent traditional version. Homecoming.
    Nikolayeva. Friendly, warm, elegant.
    Ugorskaya. Modern piano playing in the best sense of the word. Excellent technique. Very sympathetic version.
    Xiao-Mei. Intriguing. I want to hear more.

    Good but nog good enough:
    Ashkenazy. His tone becomes a problem after som listening.
    Demus. Correct and easy to listen to, but that's all.
    Gieseking. Good. Better than Demus. The competition is great.
    Gulda. Slow!
    Horszowski. Difficult to listen to. Technique?
    Lifschitz. Too metronomic.
    Loesser. Good, like Gieseking but slightly less interesting.
    Martins. Different from all others in a clumsy and sometimes clanging way. Pienaar. Correct and easy to listen to - but that's not enough.
    Stadtfeld. As if he doesn't care.
    Szasz. Not bad at all, but not good enough.
    Tureck. If only she weren't so slow.
    Woodward. The god Thor would immediately return home, hearing RW's hammering. Yudina. Fascinating prelude but the fugue is a disaster.

    Not on YT afaik:
    Fellner. BWV 867 not on YT
    Hess. BWV 867 not on YT.
    Olafsson. BWV 867 not on YT.

    Henk

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  • From MELMOTH@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 20:14:07 2023
    HT avait soumis l'ide :
    BWV 867 P&F

    *GULDA*...Unmatched Black & White Piano...Dazzling tempo
    variations...Fugues dance...
    *GOULD*...Obviously! The clairvoyance of the ideas is amazing... *GIESEKING*...Recorded in 1950, in homage to the bicentenary of the
    death of JSB...Was not intended to be diffused!...Fluid, inventive,
    colored...
    *JARRET*...One likes or dislikes, eh!...
    *NIKOLAIEVA*...In a state of grace...Great sound imagination (live)... *FISCHER*...Atypical and disturbing...
    *FEINBERG*...Romantic and fascinating...
    *MARTINS*...Chiselled, sonorous, powerful...

    Then
    *Johanssen*...*Richter*...*Tureck*...*Demus*...*Schiff*...*Naoumoff*...

    And on the harpsichord :

    *Leonhardt*...*Kirkpatrick* (first book on clavichord)...*Walcha*...
    And Gilbert...Van Asoeren...Koopman...Jaccotet...Volkonsky...

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 13:38:51 2023
    On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 18:04:30 UTC, HT wrote:
    BWV 867 P&F #22 Book 1

    Performers who'll go to the next/last round:
    Henk

    I'm not convinced that you can tell anything definitive with just one P&F. I've listened to quite a large selection now, and from your list I'd take the same ones I listed - Gieseking, Demus (not the 1954), Nikolayeva, Gould, Feinberg, Fischer and
    possibly Kempff but not sure. This is for the 2 books, not just BWV867. I would not be interested in the other pianists on your list.

    And for the rest of the WTC I'd add Gavrilov, Hewitt, Anderszewski, Demidenko, Backhaus and Hess.

    Like you, this is work in progress for me. I may change some on my list.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 14:51:34 2023
    Op zondag 12 maart 2023 om 21:38:53 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 18:04:30 UTC, HT wrote:
    BWV 867 P&F #22 Book 1

    Performers who'll go to the next/last round:
    Henk

    I'm not convinced that you can tell anything definitive with just one P&F. I've listened to quite a large selection now, and from your list I'd take the same ones I listed - Gieseking, Demus (not the 1954), Nikolayeva, Gould, Feinberg, Fischer and
    possibly Kempff but not sure. This is for the 2 books, not just BWV867. I would not be interested in the other pianists on your list.

    And for the rest of the WTC I'd add Gavrilov, Hewitt, Anderszewski, Demidenko, Backhaus and Hess.

    Like you, this is work in progress for me. I may change some on my list.

    I plan to listen to all P&Fs. 11 performers x 24 P&Fs takes all the time I can spare in a week, and probably more. 25 x 24 would be too much.

    BWV867 is musically one of the more difficult P&Fs and also one I am more familiar with. Hence my choice. The pluses and minuses in the performances I listened to were immediately obvious.

    Surprisingly, we hardly disagree on who I am not taking to the third round. The exceptions are Gieseking and Demus (whom I know and appreciate, but not enough to re-listen to all 24 P&Fs).

    <g> Book II is a horizon too far for now.

    Henk

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  • From Al Eisner@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 15:00:50 2023
    On Sat, 11 Mar 2023, HT wrote:

    Bach WTC book I piano version.

    First round. Listened to all the BWV 846 fugues I could find and eliminated the performers I didn't like and hadn't heard of before (with one exception). Among the better know I won't return to Aimard, Hewitt, HJLim, Jando, Jarrett, Koroliov, Lang Lang,
    Margulis, McGregor, Pollini, Richter, Schiff, Sokolov.

    Second round. I'll next compare the performances on YT of BWV 867 prelude and fugue. It will take some time.

    Henk

    Oh, great, advice on what not to listen to. :)

    Can we expect 95 more such posts?

    More seriously, it would be nice to know your personal criteria.
    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Al Eisner@21:1/5 to Al Eisner on Sun Mar 12 15:13:03 2023
    On Sun, 12 Mar 2023, Al Eisner wrote:

    On Sat, 11 Mar 2023, HT wrote:

    Bach WTC book I piano version.

    First round. Listened to all the BWV 846 fugues I could find and eliminated >> the performers I didn't like and hadn't heard of before (with one
    exception). Among the better know I won't return to Aimard, Hewitt, HJLim, >> Jando, Jarrett, Koroliov, Lang Lang, Margulis, McGregor, Pollini, Richter, >> Schiff, Sokolov.

    Second round. I'll next compare the performances on YT of BWV 867 prelude
    and fugue. It will take some time.

    Henk

    Oh, great, advice on what not to listen to. :)

    Can we expect 95 more such posts?

    More seriously, it would be nice to know your personal criteria.

    Ah - I see you since addressed some of this.
    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 15:21:23 2023
    Any observations re Schepkin? I quite like him, though at times his perofrmances seem a little 'overdecorated'. Feltsman does it for me
    quite well.

    Bob Harper

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  • From Mandryka@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 15:38:50 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:04:30 PM UTC, HT wrote:
    BWV 867 P&F

    Performers who'll go to the next/last round:
    Barenboim. Plays very well and is far more interesting than I expected. Crochet. The ideal elegant version.
    Feinberg. Different from all the others. He proves that Bach and rubato go well together.
    Feltsman. An almost perfect modern version.
    Fischer. Perhaps my favourite version. In Belgium they would praise the "serenity" of his performance.
    Gould. Different from all the others. It's like he is dissecting a frog. Ishizaka. Disappointing, after an excellent performance of the fugue of BWV 846, but still interesting enough.
    Kempff. Excellent traditional version. Homecoming.
    Nikolayeva. Friendly, warm, elegant.
    Ugorskaya. Modern piano playing in the best sense of the word. Excellent technique. Very sympathetic version.
    Xiao-Mei. Intriguing. I want to hear more.

    Good but nog good enough:
    Ashkenazy. His tone becomes a problem after som listening.
    Demus. Correct and easy to listen to, but that's all.
    Gieseking. Good. Better than Demus. The competition is great.
    Gulda. Slow!
    Horszowski. Difficult to listen to. Technique?
    Lifschitz. Too metronomic.
    Loesser. Good, like Gieseking but slightly less interesting.
    Martins. Different from all others in a clumsy and sometimes clanging way. Pienaar. Correct and easy to listen to - but that's not enough.
    Stadtfeld. As if he doesn't care.
    Szasz. Not bad at all, but not good enough.
    Tureck. If only she weren't so slow.
    Woodward. The god Thor would immediately return home, hearing RW's hammering.
    Yudina. Fascinating prelude but the fugue is a disaster.

    Not on YT afaik:
    Fellner. BWV 867 not on YT
    Hess. BWV 867 not on YT.
    Olafsson. BWV 867 not on YT.

    Henk

    Tureck would be my top choice out of those I think.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Mandryka on Sun Mar 12 16:32:07 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 3:38:53 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:04:30 PM UTC, HT wrote:
    BWV 867 P&F

    Performers who'll go to the next/last round:
    Barenboim. Plays very well and is far more
    interesting than I expected.

    Interesting ?!?

    Crochet. The ideal elegant version.

    The only WTC listenable while driving.

    Feinberg. Different from all the others. He proves
    that Bach and rubato go well together.

    And so does HJ Lim.

    Feltsman. An almost perfect modern version.
    Fischer. Perhaps my favourite version. In Belgium
    they would praise the "serenity" of his performance.

    Like so many other I was imprinted on Fischer.
    It feels dated nowadays.

    Gould. Different from all the others. It's like he is
    dissecting a frog.
    Ishizaka. Disappointing, after an excellent performance
    of the fugue of BWV 846, but still interesting enough.

    Too much weight lifting?

    Kempff. Excellent traditional version. Homecoming.

    Lightweight and mindless.

    Nikolayeva. Friendly, warm, elegant.

    Very very crude. Metronomic and mentally retarded.
    Nikolayeva was the Russian piano school's answer
    to Elly Ney. I could never figure out wht anyone
    liked anything she played. I suspect she was a
    decoy sent by the Russians to expose the deaf.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iGzSamlfM4

    Ugorskaya. Modern piano playing in the best sense
    of the word. Excellent technique. Very sympathetic
    version. Xiao-Mei. Intriguing. I want to hear more.

    One of the finest traditional readings.
    If one is interested in traditional.

    Good but nog good enough:
    Ashkenazy. His tone becomes a problem after
    som listening.

    He had no interest in the music. Decca pushed
    him to record the WTC in order to have a
    "competitive" offering in their catalogue.

    Demus. Correct and easy to listen to, but that's all.

    Super boring. Too much "correctness".
    How does one what is really "correct"?

    Gieseking. Good. Better than Demus. The competition is great.

    Boring.

    Gulda. Slow!

    Not his cup of tea.

    Horszowski. Difficult to listen to. Technique?
    Lifschitz. Too metronomic.
    Loesser. Good, like Gieseking but slightly less interesting.
    Martins. Different from all others in a clumsy and sometimes clanging way.

    Murderous.

    Pienaar. Correct and easy to listen to - but that's not enough.

    "Correctness" strikes again? WTF
    what does "correctness" mean?

    Stadtfeld. As if he doesn't care.
    Szasz. Not bad at all, but not good enough.
    Tureck. If only she weren't so slow.

    She would still be very boring at twice the speed.

    Woodward. The god Thor would immediately return home, hearing RW's hammering.
    Yudina. Fascinating prelude but the fugue is a disaster.

    Not on YT afaik:
    Fellner. BWV 867 not on YT
    Hess. BWV 867 not on YT.
    Olafsson. BWV 867 not on YT.


    HJ Lim makes more music out of it than all the above combined:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5co3wLzKOhc

    dk

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  • From Graham@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 12 18:12:19 2023
    On 2023-03-12 4:11 a.m., Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 3:00:19 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:

    Proof of Bach’s transcendental greatness is
    that such radically different interpretations
    as Landowska and Feinberg can be excellent
    and compelling.


    How about HJ Lim and John Lewis?

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQKqPVtrEiKM1HGAMiZLvTlSwwNNdugUy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22yLbGU3obA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH7LJO5H7oI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTEUs4wo-9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9SarP5SYSE

    dk

    PS. Landowska's is not an "interpretation". She
    said many times she played Bach as he meant
    to be played. IIRC she advised Herbert Samuel
    to play Bach on the harpsichord. Reportedly
    Samuel said "But, Mme Landowska, I don't
    like the harpsichord". To which Landowska
    replied "very well, Mr.Samuel, you play Bach
    your way, and I play Bach his way!". What
    an arrogant bitch!

    Didn't tortoise Tureck say that?

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Graham on Sun Mar 12 17:19:33 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 5:12:25 PM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
    On 2023-03-12 4:11 a.m., Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 3:00:19 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:

    Proof of Bach’s transcendental greatness is
    that such radically different interpretations
    as Landowska and Feinberg can be excellent
    and compelling.


    How about HJ Lim and John Lewis?

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQKqPVtrEiKM1HGAMiZLvTlSwwNNdugUy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22yLbGU3obA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH7LJO5H7oI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTEUs4wo-9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9SarP5SYSE

    PS. Landowska's is not an "interpretation". She
    said many times she played Bach as he meant
    to be played. IIRC she advised Herbert Samuel
    to play Bach on the harpsichord. Reportedly
    Samuel said "But, Mme Landowska, I don't
    like the harpsichord". To which Landowska
    replied "very well, Mr.Samuel, you play Bach
    your way, and I play Bach his way!". What
    an arrogant bitch!

    Didn't tortoise Tureck say that?

    Apparently that quote has been misattributed and
    misquoted. My recollection was that it happened
    during a conversation between Landowska and
    Herbert Samuel.

    There is strong evidence that the discussion was
    however with Pablo Casals:

    http://glenngould.org/mail/archives/f_minor/msg01400.html

    dk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 12 19:50:45 2023
    On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 23:32:10 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:

    HJ Lim makes more music out of it than all the above combined:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5co3wLzKOhc
    dk

    A WTC for driving your car into ditches.....

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sun Mar 12 20:20:09 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:50:47 PM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 23:32:10 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:

    HJ Lim makes more music out of it than all the above combined:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5co3wLzKOhc

    A WTC for driving your car into ditches.....

    I don't listen to the WTC while driving. I
    usually listen to jazz while driving. The
    only exception is Iberia, which resides
    permanently in my CD changer. The
    only WTC I could possibly listen to
    while driving is Evelyne Crochet's.
    As they say, "horses for courses".

    dk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 13 08:41:17 2023
    On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 21:51:37 UTC, HT wrote:

    Surprisingly, we hardly disagree on who I am not taking to the third round. The exceptions are Gieseking and Demus (whom I know and appreciate, but not enough to re-listen to all 24 P&Fs).
    Henk

    Yes, pretty close. I've unearthed a few more. I've liked some of what I've briefly heard of Loriod, Aimard, Pollini and Koroliov but I've really only skimmed them.

    But my most pleasant discovery is Helene Grimaud, who goes to the top of my list. Unfortunately all I can find on YT is Book1 #1, #2, #4, and Book 2, #3 (prelude only), #6, #9, #20. I don't know if she recorded any more than that.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Mar 13 18:53:11 2023
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 8:41:20 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 21:51:37 UTC, HT wrote:

    But my most pleasant discovery is Helene Grimaud,
    who goes to the top of my list. Unfortunately all I can
    find on YT is Book1 #1, #2, #4, and Book 2, #3 (prelude
    only), #6, #9, #20. I don't know if she recorded any more
    than that.

    I see only 847, 849, 875, 879, 889, on Amazon Music. I
    suspect these come from encores after her concerts.

    It is a well known trick among pianists to play a WTC
    prelfugue as an encore in order to stop more encore
    requests and to make the audience leave.

    dk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Mar 14 02:40:07 2023
    On Tuesday, 14 March 2023 at 01:53:15 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:

    I see only 847, 849, 875, 879, 889, on Amazon Music. I
    suspect these come from encores after her concerts.

    No, not at all. Very nicely recorded by DG. Just a selection of P&Fs.

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  • From Graham@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Tue Mar 14 10:25:14 2023
    On 2023-03-14 10:15 a.m., Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-03-14 01:53:11 +0000, Dan Koren said:

      It is a well known trick among pianists to play a WTCprelfugue as an
    encore in order to stop more encorerequests and to make the audience
    leave.


    Hilarious.  And undoubtedly true!

    -Owen

    Not just pianists either. I remember a recital by John Williams when he
    played some "less stimulating" Bach as an encore.

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Mar 14 12:15:50 2023
    On 2023-03-14 01:53:11 +0000, Dan Koren said:

    It is a well known trick among pianists to play a WTCprelfugue as an
    encore in order to stop more encorerequests and to make the audience
    leave.


    Hilarious. And undoubtedly true!

    -Owen

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