I just finished the section of the book describing the recording session for "Maybellene".

Three things stand out:

The demo Chuck brought to Chess "was built on the outline of a fiddle number that Western Swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it."

Leonard Chess "wanted a new number, not a cover whose royalties they would have had to share with others."

Phil Chess said "You have to remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an entirely different kind of music."

More evidence that Chuck's recording was an original.

Bruce's contention that it is not original because it has something to do with a previous recording would just about eliminate all recordings from being considered originals.

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On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 10:55:26 AM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

I think this exhausts the "Maybellene" topic. Maybe we can now move on to Jim's similar question about "Sweet Little Sixteen":

There you go again thinking that you can be the judge of your own debate.

Leonard Chess "wanted a new number, not a cover whose royalties they would have had to share with others."

Meaning he wanted to try and disguise it enough so they could get away with it.

Phil Chess said "You have to remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an entirely different kind of music."

Despite all of the examples I gave along the way, what you can't seem to get through your head is that you can take a composition and make a recording that is "an entirely different kind of music." Doesn't make it a different composition.

By the way, what you got from the book's "Maybellene section" is very different from what Diane reported back when she had the book. I think you're just cherry picking sentences out of context that you feel help your side of the debate. Here is what she
posted:

<<Berry, Johnson, and Hardy [the drummer] hastily recorded a four-song
tape that included a rattling, fast hillbilly number they featured in
their Cosmo [Club Cosmopolitan in East St. Louis] sets, "Ida Mae," based
on a traditional fiddle tune called "Ida Red.">> (page 75, notes cite
Johnnie Johnson's autobiography)

<<[Leonard] Chess turned his entire focus to the hillbilly song that
Berry had included on his demo. It was built on the outline of a fiddle
number that western swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry
had reworked it and was singing the name "Ida Mae" in order to
distinguish his song from its origins.>> (page 78)

<<Phil Chess himself admitted they were flying blind. "You have to
remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an
entirely different kind of music.">> (page 79. This quote from Phil
Chess appears to be from an interview of both Chess brothers on a show
called "Open Vault" on WBGH. Don't know if that's radio or TV, and the
date of the interview isn't given; the notes only say it was "accessed"
by the author in 2022 (so what!?). This is not the only sloppy detail
in the book, I'm coming to see. I have included the quote because it
supports, IMO, Bill's contention that "Maybellene" was a "life-changing" record.

And I said:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:06:30 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:

I have included the quote because it supports, IMO, Bill's contention that "Maybellene" was a "life-changing" record.

I have never disputed that it was a revolutionary new sound in rock and roll. I only dispute the fact of it being an original composition. And this section....

" It was built on the outline of a fiddle number that western swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it and was singing the name "Ida Mae" in order to distinguish his song from its origins."

....supports my claim.

and Diane said:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:06:30 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

I have included the quote because it supports, IMO, Bill's contention that "Maybellene" was a "life-changing" record.

I have never disputed that it was a revolutionary new sound in rock and roll. I only dispute the fact of it being an original composition. And this section....

" It was built on the outline of a fiddle number that western swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it and was singing the name "Ida Mae" in order to distinguish his song from its origins."

....supports my claim.

------------
Of course it does. The record was based on an earlier record, but it
*became* something brand new. This is not a problem for me.

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On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 10:10:07 AM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

I just finished the section of the book describing the recording session for "Maybellene".

Three things stand out:

The demo Chuck brought to Chess "was built on the outline of a fiddle number that Western Swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it."

Leonard Chess "wanted a new number, not a cover whose royalties they would have had to share with others."

Phil Chess said "You have to remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an entirely different kind of music."

More evidence that Chuck's recording was an original.

Bruce's contention that it is not original because it has something to do with a previous recording would just about eliminate all recordings from being considered originals.

I think this exhausts the "Maybellene" topic. Maybe we can now move on to Jim's similar question about "Sweet Little Sixteen":

"How about "Sweet Little Sixteen"? It's "Midnight Special."

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On 11/13/2023 10:10 AM, Bill B wrote:

I just finished the section of the book describing the recording session for "Maybellene".

Three things stand out:

The demo Chuck brought to Chess "was built on the outline of a fiddle number that Western Swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it."

Leonard Chess "wanted a new number, not a cover whose royalties they would have had to share with others."

Phil Chess said "You have to remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an entirely different kind of music."

More evidence that Chuck's recording was an original.

Bruce's contention that it is not original because it has something to do with a previous recording would just about eliminate all recordings from being considered originals.

------------
This post is not original! I previously posted these exact same quotes!

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On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 11:43:47 AM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:

On 11/13/2023 10:10 AM, Bill B wrote:

I just finished the section of the book describing the recording session for "Maybellene".

Three things stand out:

The demo Chuck brought to Chess "was built on the outline of a fiddle number that Western Swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it."

Leonard Chess "wanted a new number, not a cover whose royalties they would have had to share with others."

Phil Chess said "You have to remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an entirely different kind of music."

More evidence that Chuck's recording was an original.

Bruce's contention that it is not original because it has something to do with a previous recording would just about eliminate all recordings from being considered originals.

------------
This post is not original! I previously posted these exact same quotes!

Yes you did, as part of longer quotes. And you agreed they supported my position.
But then you also said they supported Bruce's position. I posted them to emphasize I like the parts that support my position better. :-)

I don't agree any part of the quotes support Bruce's claim, though I didn't argue the point when you posted them.

I guess you have to deduct points from my response because my quotes were not original. :-) That's two smileys in one post.

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On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 11:56:13 AM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 11:43:47 AM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:

On 11/13/2023 10:10 AM, Bill B wrote:

I just finished the section of the book describing the recording session for "Maybellene".

Three things stand out:

The demo Chuck brought to Chess "was built on the outline of a fiddle number that Western Swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it."

Leonard Chess "wanted a new number, not a cover whose royalties they would have had to share with others."

Phil Chess said "You have to remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an entirely different kind of music."

More evidence that Chuck's recording was an original.

Bruce's contention that it is not original because it has something to do with a previous recording would just about eliminate all recordings from being considered originals.

------------
This post is not original! I previously posted these exact same quotes!

Yes you did, as part of longer quotes. And you agreed they supported my position.
But then you also said they supported Bruce's position. I posted them to emphasize I like the parts that support my position better. :-)

I don't agree any part of the quotes support Bruce's claim, though I didn't argue the point when you posted them.

I guess you have to deduct points from my response because my quotes were not original. :-) That's two smileys in one post.

I'm sorry. In rereading your post, you said the quotes supported my contention that "Maybellene" was a life changing record, not my position as to originality. See my response to Bruce.

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On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 12:00:26 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

I'm sorry. In rereading your post, you said the quotes supported my contention that "Maybellene" was a life changing record,

I never disputed that.

How about this?

It's an original arrangement of a non original composition. In order to be an original composition it can't be an admitted "reworking" of another composition. Not even a reworking of your own composition, like you might say about "No Particular Place To
Go" with "School Day."

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On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 07:10:05 -0800 (PST), Bill B <bbug2@optonline.net>
wrote:

I just finished the section of the book describing the recording session for "Maybellene".

Three things stand out:

The demo Chuck brought to Chess "was built on the outline of a fiddle number that Western Swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it."

Leonard Chess "wanted a new number, not a cover whose royalties they would have had to share with others."

Phil Chess said "You have to remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an entirely different kind of music."

More evidence that Chuck's recording was an original.

From a neutral position, I present:

Bob Wills & His Texas Playboys - Ida Red https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW-lWQBjnFg

Chuck Berry - Maybellene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjrQWU2EcsA

playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch_videos?video_ids=pW-lWQBjnFg,QjrQWU2EcsA

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On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 11:13:25 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 10:55:26 AM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

I think this exhausts the "Maybellene" topic. Maybe we can now move on to Jim's similar question about "Sweet Little Sixteen":

"How about "Sweet Little Sixteen"? It's "Midnight Special."

By the way, what you got from the book's "Maybellene section" is very different from what Diane reported back when she had the book. I think you're just cherry picking sentences out of context that you feel help your side of the debate.

Diane reported everything I posted . There was nothing different.

I have never disputed that it was a revolutionary new sound in rock and roll. I only dispute the fact of it being an original composition.

Two questions remain:

What do you think of Jim's statement:
"How about "Sweet Little Sixteen"? It's "Midnight Special"?

Do you dispute my claim: Bruce's contention that it is not original because it has something to do with a previous recording would just about eliminate all recordings from being considered originals?
A little exaggeration there for emphasis, but true for a very large number of recordings.





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On 11/13/2023 12:14 PM, RWC wrote:

From a neutral position, I present:

Bob Wills & His Texas Playboys - Ida Red https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW-lWQBjnFg

Chuck Berry - Maybellene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjrQWU2EcsA

--------------
Okay. So, the lyrics are 100% different. The pattern of the verse is
the same. However, the chorus of the Wills record is only one line:
"Ida Red, Ida Red, I'm a fool about Ida Red." The chorus of
"Maybellene" is a three-line AAB blues stanza.

These are differences so significant that it's difficult to recognize
that one song is based on the other. IOW if no one had told me this was
the case, I would never have figured it out. But it is. Berry himself
said so. You can't get away from that.

Once again I repeat that this should not matter, any more than it
matters when a chef starts with his grandmother's recipe, makes major
changes to suit the tastes of contemporary foodies, and turns it into a
new culinary sensation.

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On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 12:26:48 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:

Okay. So, the lyrics are 100% different. The pattern of the verse is
the same. However, the chorus of the Wills record is only one line:
"Ida Red, Ida Red, I'm a fool about Ida Red." The chorus of
"Maybellene" is a three-line AAB blues stanza.

These are differences so significant that it's difficult to recognize
that one song is based on the other. IOW if no one had told me this was
the case, I would never have figured it out. But it is. Berry himself
said so. You can't get away from that.

Once again I repeat that this should not matter

It doesn't matter to me. What matters is someone saying it's not original.

I'm not sure Berry said it was based on Ida Red. It was the author of the book who said it. Chuck probably said it elsewhere but, as you say, it doesn't matter.

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On 11/13/2023 12:41 PM, Bill B wrote:

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 12:26:48 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:

Okay. So, the lyrics are 100% different. The pattern of the verse is
the same. However, the chorus of the Wills record is only one line:
"Ida Red, Ida Red, I'm a fool about Ida Red." The chorus of
"Maybellene" is a three-line AAB blues stanza.

These are differences so significant that it's difficult to recognize
that one song is based on the other. IOW if no one had told me this was
the case, I would never have figured it out. But it is. Berry himself
said so. You can't get away from that.

Once again I repeat that this should not matter

It doesn't matter to me. What matters is someone saying it's not original.

I'm not sure Berry said it was based on Ida Red. It was the author of the book who said it. Chuck probably said it elsewhere but, as you say, it doesn't matter.

------------
I think he said it in the "Autobiography," but I returned that to the
library also, so I can't point it out.

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