https://www.nodepression.com/the-reading-room-the-rise-of-chuck-berry-and-rock-and-roll/

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On Jan 9, 2023 at 10:20:59 PM CST, "Bruce" <SavoyBG@aol.com> wrote:

https://www.nodepression.com/the-reading-room-the-rise-of-chuck-berry-and-rock-and-roll/

I casn't resist quoting part of the review:

Berry also took advantage of what rock promoter Alan Freed referred to as a change in audiences. In 1949, Jerry Wexler used the phrase “rhythm and blues”
to describe what had been formerly called “race” music. Around that time, though, Bo Diddley, according to author RJ Smith, “was turning domestic appliances into guitars, and Wexler noticed how white kids were getting interested in R&B.” Freed came along and coined the term “rock and roll” to
pronounce the shift in audiences. According to Freed, “What determines a particular demographic or a particular market is not who plays the music now
or who sells the music, it is who buys the music … So-called rhythm and blues was bought by black people. It’s an unfortunate truth of merchandising in a free enterprise society that you need to target your audiences.”
In the fall of 1955, when Berry released “Maybellene,” he launched rock and roll into the stratosphere, his guitar providing the jet fuel for the liftoff. Smith’s absorbing new biography, Chuck Berry: An American Life (Hachette), provides not only a detailed, chronological account of Berry’s life, but also,
more importantly, a compelling look at Berry’s artistry and a glimpse of American culture and how Berry responded to it, fit into it, or rejected it. “Before he came along, rock and roll was a verb, a suggestion of sex and body,
the blues-based words paired as opposites, gasping and sighing, committing and giving way,” Smith writes. “Chuck Berry turned that verb into a thing unto itself. Within months of the release of his first single, ‘Maybellene,’ people
were using rock & roll in their daily conversation. The words explained what music they liked, then it expressed what in life they liked, and then it was them.”

--md

remove "xx" for email

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On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 10:23:42 AM UTC-5, Mark D. wrote:

On Jan 9, 2023 at 10:20:59 PM CST, "Bruce" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

https://www.nodepression.com/the-reading-room-the-rise-of-chuck-berry-and-rock-and-roll/

I casn't resist quoting part of the review:

Berry also took advantage of what rock promoter Alan Freed referred to as a change in audiences. In 1949, Jerry Wexler used the phrase “rhythm and blues”
to describe what had been formerly called “race” music. Around that time,
though, Bo Diddley, according to author RJ Smith, “was turning domestic appliances into guitars, and Wexler noticed how white kids were getting interested in R&B.” Freed came along and coined the term “rock and roll” to
pronounce the shift in audiences. According to Freed, “What determines a particular demographic or a particular market is not who plays the music now or who sells the music, it is who buys the music … So-called rhythm and blues
was bought by black people. It’s an unfortunate truth of merchandising in a
free enterprise society that you need to target your audiences.”
In the fall of 1955, when Berry released “Maybellene,” he launched rock and
roll into the stratosphere,

Oh, so it wasn't "Rock Around The Clock" that did that several months earlier?

This guy has his head up his ass like most all of these revisionists who think that rock and roll only mattered once the white people were aware of it 7-8 years after it first started.

Still waiting for you to tell us when you think rock and roll started.

"The greatest rock 'n' roll performers in the world" - Floyd Warner Associates, in a 1951 press release on The Dominoes featuring Clyde McPhatter.

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On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 2:21:19 PM UTC-5, Mark D. wrote:

On Jan 10, 2023 at 9:30:02 AM CST, "Bruce" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

Still waiting for you to tell us when you think rock and roll started.

In the 1920s when Luis Armstrong recorded this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmGt2U-xTE

I figured as much. You can't come up with a serious answer.

How about this, was it before Freed came to NY in the fall of 1954?

Or did it not start until the white teenagers in NY finally knew about it?

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On Jan 10, 2023 at 9:30:02 AM CST, "Bruce" <SavoyBG@aol.com> wrote:

Still waiting for you to tell us when you think rock and roll started.

In the 1920s when Luis Armstrong recorded this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmGt2U-xTE
<div>--md

remove "xx" for email</div>

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"The greatest rock 'n' roll performers in the world" - Floyd Warner Associates, in a 1951 press release on The Dominoes featuring Clyde McPhatter.

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On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 2:41:14 PM UTC-5, DianeE wrote:

I would say "Rock Around The Clock" launched it into the stratosphere as
far as fame and popularity go, but I can't deny Chuck Berry's brilliance
as composer and performer. That said, I don't actually remember the
first time I heard "Maybellene." It didn't knock me on my 7-year-old
ass like "Rock Around The Clock" did.

I can and it did have a profound effect on me, much more then RATC. I was playing stickball in the street in front of my apartment building and began my lifelong obsession with Chuck at that moment.

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On 1/10/2023 10:30 AM, Bruce wrote:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 10:23:42 AM UTC-5, Mark D. wrote:

On Jan 9, 2023 at 10:20:59 PM CST, "Bruce" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

https://www.nodepression.com/the-reading-room-the-rise-of-chuck-berry-and-rock-and-roll/

I casn't resist quoting part of the review:

Berry also took advantage of what rock promoter Alan Freed referred

to as a

change in audiences. In 1949, Jerry Wexler used the phrase “rhythm

and blues”

to describe what had been formerly called “race” music. Around that time,
though, Bo Diddley, according to author RJ Smith, “was turning domestic
appliances into guitars, and Wexler noticed how white kids were getting
interested in R&B.” Freed came along and coined the term “rock and roll” to
pronounce the shift in audiences. According to Freed, “What determines a
particular demographic or a particular market is not who plays the

music now

or who sells the music, it is who buys the music … So-called rhythm

and blues

was bought by black people. It’s an unfortunate truth of

merchandising in a

free enterprise society that you need to target your audiences.”
In the fall of 1955, when Berry released “Maybellene,” he launched

rock and

roll into the stratosphere,

Oh, so it wasn't "Rock Around The Clock" that did that several months

earlier?

This guy has his head up his ass like most all of these revisionists

who think that rock and roll only mattered once the white people were
aware of it 7-8 years after it first started.

------------

He didn't say Chuck Berry *started* it. He said Chuck Berry "launched
it into the stratosphere." That could mean a few different things, one
of which is that he thinks "Maybellene" is a sublime record and that
Berry is a greater artist than Haley.
I would say "Rock Around The Clock" launched it into the stratosphere as
far as fame and popularity go, but I can't deny Chuck Berry's brilliance
as composer and performer. That said, I don't actually remember the
first time I heard "Maybellene." It didn't knock me on my 7-year-old
ass like "Rock Around The Clock" did.

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On Jan 11, 2023 at 1:41:12 PM CST, "DianeE" <DianeE@NoSpam.net> wrote:

On 1/10/2023 10:30 AM, Bruce wrote:

On Tuesday, January 10, 2023 at 10:23:42 AM UTC-5, Mark D. wrote:

On Jan 9, 2023 at 10:20:59 PM CST, "Bruce" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

https://www.nodepression.com/the-reading-room-the-rise-of-chuck-berry-and-rock-and-roll/

I casn't resist quoting part of the review:

Berry also took advantage of what rock promoter Alan Freed referred

to as a

change in audiences. In 1949, Jerry Wexler used the phrase “rhythm

and blues”

to describe what had been formerly called “race” music. Around that

time,

though, Bo Diddley, according to author RJ Smith, “was turning domestic >>> appliances into guitars, and Wexler noticed how white kids were getting
interested in R&B.” Freed came along and coined the term “rock and

roll” to

pronounce the shift in audiences. According to Freed, “What determines a >>> particular demographic or a particular market is not who plays the

music now

or who sells the music, it is who buys the music … So-called rhythm

and blues

was bought by black people. It’s an unfortunate truth of

merchandising in a

free enterprise society that you need to target your audiences.”
In the fall of 1955, when Berry released “Maybellene,” he launched

rock and

roll into the stratosphere,

Oh, so it wasn't "Rock Around The Clock" that did that several months

earlier?

This guy has his head up his ass like most all of these revisionists

who think that rock and roll only mattered once the white people were
aware of it 7-8 years after it first started.

------------

He didn't say Chuck Berry *started* it. He said Chuck Berry "launched
it into the stratosphere." That could mean a few different things, one
of which is that he thinks "Maybellene" is a sublime record and that
Berry is a greater artist than Haley.
I would say "Rock Around The Clock" launched it into the stratosphere as
far as fame and popularity go, but I can't deny Chuck Berry's brilliance
as composer and performer. That said, I don't actually remember the
first time I heard "Maybellene." It didn't knock me on my 7-year-old
ass like "Rock Around The Clock" did.

Well, sure, but let's remember that "Rock Around the Clock" didn't really take off until the release of "The Blackboard Jungle," which famously played it
over the opening bits, in the spring of 1955, and by then r'n'r had already taken off. The record's initial release was almost a year earlier, but it was only a minor hit. Frank Zappa recalled in an interview that he had heard r'n'r earlier, but only in a movie theater, hearing it really loud, did he realize its full glory.

"Maybellene" knocked me on my ass but I was already thirteen at the time.


--md

remove "xx" for email

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Diane took the book out of the library and she's disgusted by some of what she read. It says that there are videos of Chuck having women shit in his mouth and Chuck eats it.

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On 11/3/2023 7:56 PM, Bruce wrote:

Diane took the book out of the library and she's disgusted by some of what she read. It says that there are videos of Chuck having women shit in his mouth and Chuck eats it.

That's old news. My son told me about it years ago. Not sure if it's true. Were the videos viewed by the author?

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On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 8:30:56 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On 11/3/2023 7:56 PM, Bruce wrote:

Diane took the book out of the library and she's disgusted by some of what she read. It says that there are videos of Chuck having women shit in his mouth and Chuck eats it.

That's old news. My son told me about it years ago. Not sure if it's true. Were the videos viewed by the author?

This guy claims to have seen them.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R1xhCX9-IEU

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On 11/3/2023 7:56 PM, Bruce wrote:

Diane took the book out of the library and she's disgusted by some of what she read. It says that there are videos of Chuck having women shit in his mouth and Chuck eats it.

------------
Yeah, and that's not even the most sordid part of it. It does shed a
little more light on the genesis of "Maybellene," though, which I'll
elaborate on tomorrow.

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On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 9:05:51 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 8:30:56 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On 11/3/2023 7:56 PM, Bruce wrote:

Diane took the book out of the library and she's disgusted by some of what she read. It says that there are videos of Chuck having women shit in his mouth and Chuck eats it.

That's old news. My son told me about it years ago. Not sure if it's true. Were the videos viewed by the author?

This guy claims to have seen them.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R1xhCX9-IEU

No he doesn't. His video is about Chuck farting in a woman's face and peeing in her mouth, far different from eating her shit.

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On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 09:54:08 UTC, Bill B wrote:

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 9:05:51 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 8:30:56 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On 11/3/2023 7:56 PM, Bruce wrote:

Diane took the book out of the library and she's disgusted by some of what she read. It says that there are videos of Chuck having women shit in his mouth and Chuck eats it.

That's old news. My son told me about it years ago. Not sure if it's true. Were the videos viewed by the author?

This guy claims to have seen them.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R1xhCX9-IEU

No he doesn't. His video is about Chuck farting in a woman's face and peeing in her mouth, far different from eating her shit.

Gee thanks I read this just as I'd finished eating my breakfast :)

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I wish I hadn't volunteered to read this book. I'm still reeling from
just leafing through it. He makes R. Kelly look like a choirboy. This
was truly a monstrous, horrible human being. (And no, he never paid Dave Bartholomew or even admitted that "My Ding-A-Ling" was the same song.)

Anyhow the book does have notes and an index, so I can report that the information on the origin story of Ida Red--->Ida Mae--->Maybellene
comes from a 1972 interview by a writer named Patrick W. Salvo. At one
point the book says he was working for Gallery, a men's magazine, but
the notes cite the interview as having been published in Rolling Stone.
Berry is quoted as explicitly stating he "reworked" (his word) the Bob
Wills record to come up with "Ida Mae."

Other interesting facts or factoids:
-Chuck Berry's autobiography is the source for naming "Maybellene" after
a cow in a children's book; Johnnie Johnson's is the source for Leonard
Chess renaming it after finding a tube of Maybelline mascara someone had
left in the studio.
-It took 36 takes to record the song.
-Chess Studios hadn't been built yet. The recording was done at a place
called Universal Studios.

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On 11/4/2023 10:01 AM, DianeE wrote:

Anyhow the book does have notes and an index, so I can report that the information on the origin story of Ida Red--->Ida Mae--->Maybellene
comes from a 1972 interview by a writer named Patrick W. Salvo.  At one point the book says he was working for Gallery, a men's magazine, but
the notes cite the interview as having been published in Rolling Stone.
Berry is quoted as explicitly stating he "reworked" (his word) the Bob
Wills record to come up with "Ida Mae."

--------
Now here's something weird: I just Googled "Patrick W. Salvo" and came
up with....nothing. Absolutely nothing, not even an obituary. Perhaps
it was a pseudonym?

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:54:08 AM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 9:05:51 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 8:30:56 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On 11/3/2023 7:56 PM, Bruce wrote:

Diane took the book out of the library and she's disgusted by some of what she read. It says that there are videos of Chuck having women shit in his mouth and Chuck eats it.

That's old news. My son told me about it years ago. Not sure if it's true. Were the videos viewed by the author?

This guy claims to have seen them.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R1xhCX9-IEU

No he doesn't. His video is about Chuck farting in a woman's face and peeing in her mouth, far different from eating her shit.

Sorry, those were normal things to do, pissing in a woman's mouth, right. How could I possibly believe e would have her shit in his mouth and eat it?

He only mentioned that one scene, but I got the impression he saw lots more than that. So, I guess you'll only believe the eating shit part if you see the video yourself?

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<<Berry, Johnson, and Hardy [the drummer] hastily recorded a four-song
tape that included a rattling, fast hillbilly number they featured in
their Cosmo [Club Cosmopolitan in East St. Louis] sets, "Ida Mae," based
on a traditional fiddle tune called "Ida Red.">> (page 75, notes cite
Johnnie Johnson's autobiography)

<<[Leonard] Chess turned his entire focus to the hillbilly song that
Berry had included on his demo. It was built on the outline of a fiddle
number that western swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry
had reworked it and was singing the name "Ida Mae" in order to
distinguish his song from its origins.>> (page 78)

<<Phil Chess himself admitted they were flying blind. "You have to
remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to. This was an
entirely different kind of music.">> (page 79. This quote from Phil
Chess appears to be from an interview of both Chess brothers on a show
called "Open Vault" on WBGH. Don't know if that's radio or TV, and the
date of the interview isn't given; the notes only say it was "accessed"
by the author in 2022 (so what!?). This is not the only sloppy detail
in the book, I'm coming to see. I have included the quote because it
supports, IMO, Bill's contention that "Maybellene" was a "life-changing" record.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 11:34:24 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:54:08 AM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 9:05:51 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 8:30:56 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On 11/3/2023 7:56 PM, Bruce wrote:

Diane took the book out of the library and she's disgusted by some of what she read. It says that there are videos of Chuck having women shit in his mouth and Chuck eats it.

That's old news. My son told me about it years ago. Not sure if it's true. Were the videos viewed by the author?

This guy claims to have seen them.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/R1xhCX9-IEU

No he doesn't. His video is about Chuck farting in a woman's face and peeing in her mouth, far different from eating her shit.

Sorry, those were normal things to do, pissing in a woman's mouth, right. How could I possibly believe he would have her shit in his mouth and eat it?

He only mentioned that one scene, but I got the impression he saw lots more than that. So, I guess you'll only believe the eating shit part if you see the video yourself?

Oh, so your "impression" serves as proof. And your "impression" tells you he cherry picked a less revolting offense to make Chuck look bad. Back to your "mistorian personna, I guess.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:06:30 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:

I have included the quote because it supports, IMO, Bill's contention that "Maybellene" was a "life-changing" record.

I have never disputed that it was a revolutionary new sound in rock and roll. I only dispute the fact of it being an original composition. And this section....

" It was built on the outline of a fiddle number that western swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it and was singing the name "Ida Mae" in order to distinguish his song from its origins."

....supports my claim.

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On 11/4/2023 1:52 PM, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 1:06:30 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:

I have included the quote because it supports, IMO, Bill's contention that "Maybellene" was a "life-changing" record.

I have never disputed that it was a revolutionary new sound in rock and roll. I only dispute the fact of it being an original composition. And this section....

" It was built on the outline of a fiddle number that western swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red." Berry had reworked it and was singing the name "Ida Mae" in order to distinguish his song from its origins."

....supports my claim.

------------
Of course it does. The record was based on an earlier record, but it
*became* something brand new. This is not a problem for me.

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On 11/4/2023 1:06 PM, DianeE wrote:

<<Berry, Johnson, and Hardy [the drummer] hastily recorded a four-song
tape that included a rattling, fast hillbilly number they featured in
their Cosmo [Club Cosmopolitan in East St. Louis] sets, "Ida Mae," based
on a traditional fiddle tune called "Ida Red.">> (page 75, notes cite
Johnnie Johnson's autobiography)

<<[Leonard] Chess turned his entire focus to the hillbilly song that
Berry had included on his demo.  It was built on the outline of a fiddle number that western swing star Bob Wills had recorded, "Ida Red."  Berry
had reworked it and was singing the name "Ida Mae" in order to
distinguish his song from its origins.>> (page 78)

<<Phil Chess himself admitted they were flying blind.  "You have to remember, we didn't have anything to compare it to.  This was an
entirely different kind of music.">> (page 79.  This quote from Phil
Chess appears to be from an interview of both Chess brothers on a show
called "Open Vault" on WBGH.  Don't know if that's radio or TV, and the
date of the interview isn't given; the notes only say it was "accessed"
by the author in 2022 (so what!?).  This is not the only sloppy detail
in the book, I'm coming to see.  I have included the quote because it supports, IMO, Bill's contention that "Maybellene" was a "life-changing" record.

--------------
An example of a sloppy detail: The author (R.J. Smith) is talking about
"My Ding-A-Ling" and says Dave Bartholomew based his song on the melody
of "Little Brown Jug." By George, I didn't know that, but I think he's
right. BUT he then goes on to say Bartholomew added a hook from "Pop
Goes The Weasel." Well, WRONG. It's "shave and a haircut, two bits,"
which I guess was some children's rhyme from a million years ago, but in
any event has NOTHING to do with "Pop Goes The Weasel."
I said "detail," and yes, this is quite trivial, but someone should have
caught it, and it makes me wonder about the level of fact-checking for
more important things.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 10:01:08 AM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:

I wish I hadn't volunteered to read this book. I'm still reeling from
just leafing through it. He makes R. Kelly look like a choirboy. This
was truly a monstrous, horrible human being.

I assume you're talking about "Chuck Berry: An American Life" by RJ Smith.
I was surprised to read the reviews. You make it sound like a hatchet job whereas the reviews praise it as sympathetic.
Here's one of those reviews:

"Just to get this out of the way first, I had some trepidations when I started this biography. As a native St. Louisan, I feel reflexively defensive about Chuck Berry and his complicated legacy, which in many ways mirrors the city that spawned him (us).
As with most native St. Louisans, there aren’t too many degrees of separation between us. Decades before I got to interview Chuck Berry in person, I heard story after story from people who met him or knew him or had minor dealings with him. My own mom,
a public schoolteacher who moonlighted as a waitress for extra money, served him and one of his very young blond dates on a couple of occasions. She said he was polite and friendly and a good tipper. A perfect gentleman–who was fucking an apparent
teenager.

Berry is definitely the most charismatic person I have ever met and probably the most significant person I have ever interviewed, and I didn’t get much time with him–maybe 20 minutes or a half-hour, and I wasn’t allowed to use a tape recorder,
which both amused and irritated me, since I’m a stickler for quoting people precisely, and, to put it mildly, Chuck Berry resists paraphrase. He had the most peculiar and poetic way of phrasing things, a sort of ur-Country Grammar lexicon that is
impossible to replicate. Some of his gnomic locutions reminded me of my late grandmother’s sayings; others seemed unique to him. After our interview, I literally ran to my office and transcribed my notes right away, so I would be able to capture as
much of that sui generis voice as possible. I could still hear his voice ringing like a bell in my brain, and I could still feel the grasp of his enormous hand, the force of his singular star power. Most celebrities (especially septuagenarian celebrities,
as he was at the time) seem smaller and more ordinary in real life. Not Chuck Berry, though: even eating chicken wings in a goofy captain’s cap, he was majestic, mysterious, suffused with dark energy disguised as mere genius.

I knew before I started Smith’s comprehensive and unstintingly honest but enormously sympathetic biography that his would need to be an unauthorized biography. Berry was protective of his privacy and his legacy, and his family no doubt feels that Berry�
��s own biography is definitive. But as fantastic as Berry’s autobiography is (for one thing, it replicates his voice exactly, which makes sense since he actually wrote it), it conceals as much or more than it reveals. This is going to sound like a
strange comparison, but in many ways Smith’s great challenge is similar to the one faced by Jan Swafford in writing about Johannes Brahms, another genius perv who wore mask over mask over mask and drenched every meaningful extramusical statement in
irony. With a subject as complex and contradictory as Berry or Brahms, how can the biographer tell if you have found his “true” self and not another mask? More likely the “true” self is this multitudinous assemblage of lies, myths, delusions, and
unconscious compulsions, but it takes a biographer as talented as Swafford or Smith to present the subject in all its irreducible complexity. It helps that they’re both very good at writing about music qua music, which is, after all, the language Berry
and Brahms spoke best.

Despite my pledge to use the library rather than buy more books, I ended up ordering a copy of Chuck Berry: An American Life after I finished the library book. I don’t write about pop music anymore, so I won’t use this as a research source the way I
refer to my Swafford bios or my music encyclopedias, but I want to have this in my collection, and I want to be able to press it into the hands of the next blowhard fool who says something ignorant and dismissive about the man who gave my city, nation,
and world so many priceless gifts.

In the event that anyone wants to read my short interview with Berry, I cut-and-pasted it below, since it’s old enough to be getting unsearchable, at least in the existing RFT archives:

Riverfront Times, October 17, 2001
Somewhere around the middle of the long, long list of things that make Radar Station sad, somewhere between kitten torture and the demise of the bustle in ladies’ skirt fashions, is the fact that St. Louis rock icon Chuck Berry doesn’t get the
respect he deserves in his own hometown. Sure, he’s got a bronze star on Delmar, his monthly gigs at the Blueberry Hill Duck Room always sell out, and Gov. Bob Holden and Mayor Francis Slay are scheduled to present him with “proclamations of his
greatness” at his big birthday bash at the Pageant on Oct. 18. These honors notwithstanding, when your garden-variety St. Louis hipster utters Berry’s name, it’s likely to lead to a crack about coprophilia and underage girls, not a serious
discussion about his astonishing musical legacy.

It’s partly his own fault. Anyone who’s seen Berry in concert recently is painfully aware that he phones in his performances more often than not, seldom bothering to rehearse with his pickup bands or even tune his guitar. No one held a gun to his
head when he outfitted his employee bathrooms with hidden video cameras. No one forced him to record the staggeringly stupid novelty jingle “My Ding-a-Ling.” But what does it say about the kitten-torturing, bustle-slighting world we live in that this
infantile paean to Berry’s illustrious pee-pee remains his all-time biggest hit, bigger than “Roll Over Beethoven,” “Little Queenie,” “Maybellene,” “Nadine (Is It You?)” and “No Particular Place to Go”? What does it say about us
that we’d rather make poop jokes than talk about the poetic brilliance of lyrics such as “with hurry-home drops on her cheeks” or “as I was motorvatin’ over the hill” or “campaign-shouting like a Southern diplomat”? Indeed, we’re
mindless sheep, too busy playing with our own ding-a-lings to appreciate the legend who duck-walks among us.

In the end, of course, it doesn’t matter whether we make dumb gibes or issue proclamations. Berry’s legacy is right there on his records: those slithery, wild, scabrous guitar licks; those groin-grinding jump rhythms, that heady elixir of honky-tonk
and R&B — the very essence of rock & roll, in all of its primitive, spastic, id-centered glory. Without Berry’s quicksilver genius, rock music as we know it would not, could not exist.

Radar Station had the singular pleasure of interviewing the brown-eyed handsome man in person last week, when he met with us at Blueberry Hill. At nearly three-quarters of a century, Berry looks dapper and alert. Wearing a black windbreaker and his
signature captain’s hat, he sits at the head of the table, in front of an uneaten basket of hot wings and a glass of what looks like orange juice. He urges us to move closer — not because he’s trying to get fresh with us but because he’s a little
hard of hearing. Radar Station (who suddenly feels too cute to be 9,460,800 minutes over 17) finds his gallantry irresistible, if absurd. He fixes his cloudy black eyes on our face and, when asked how he’d like to be remembered, politely informs us
that he doesn’t care. “People’s opinions can’t be altered,” he observes cheerfully. “Realizing this, I’ve found much pleasure and peace.” Asked to name his favorite song, he says, “It’s just like kids — how can you say you love your
boy more than your girl, your angel more than your brat?”

Berry doesn’t seem to mind being interviewed, but he doesn’t like to indulge in freeform reminiscence: “A guy came in, some college student. He set down a hand tape-recorder, and he said, ‘Chuck, I’ve been waiting for this moment for six years.
Go ahead and talk.’ I said, ‘Well, then, we’re done now. You ask the questions — I’ll answer anything you ask, but I’m not just going to talk. You can even ask me what kind of underclothes I’m wearing, and I’ll tell you.'” Radar Station,
a helpless literalist, takes the bait and asks him. “Good ones,” he responds with a wide, sly grin. “Briefs today, but I own a variety.”

Having established this important information, we ask whether he has any comment on the lawsuit his longtime pianist Johnnie Johnson filed recently, wherein Johnson claims that he deserves co-writing credit on most of Berry’s classic songs. “It’s
not Johnnie that’s doing this,” Berry says sadly. “I’ve known him 40 years. Someone inspired him to go along with him and seek their desire to try for an easy dollar. At the Pageant’s grand opening, I talked to him for 20 minutes in the
dressing room. At that time, I didn’t know [about the lawsuit]. If I would have known, I would have popped the question: ‘Hey, baby! What’s up with that?’ But he never said a mumbling word.”

Berry, who intends to keep rocking for the next 20 years, isn’t holding grudges. Besides playing out regularly, he’s recording a new album, which has been on the back burner since 1978. He claims he’s written nine new songs, but he doesn’t want
to estimate a release date. “I thought last March, but I might as well not predict anymore. It will take the application of time, will and effort,” he says. Berry’s daughter and son, among others, will probably back him up. “I have to let them do
something, or else I’ll pay family dues,” he cackles. “Even Keith Richards or Johnnie Johnson — I’d welcome them if they wanted to play. A lot of people would be surprised. All I want is a good song.”

Chuck Berry celebrates his 75th birthday on Thursday, Oct. 18, at the Pageant, with special guest Little Richard."


I guess I'll see for myself. I just ordered it.

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On Nov 4, 2023 at 3:02:22 PM CDT, "Bill B" <bbug2@optonline.net> wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 10:01:08 AM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:

I wish I hadn't volunteered to read this book. I'm still reeling from
just leafing through it. He makes R. Kelly look like a choirboy. This
was truly a monstrous, horrible human being.

I assume you're talking about "Chuck Berry: An American Life" by RJ Smith.
I was surprised to read the reviews. You make it sound like a hatchet job whereas the reviews praise it as sympathetic.
Here's one of those reviews:

Thanks for this, Bill. It's always good, and rather reare nowadays, to see common sense in full bloom.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:02:23 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

when your garden-variety St. Louis hipster utters Berry’s name, it’s likely to lead to a crack about coprophilia and underage girls, not a serious discussion about his astonishing musical legacy.

At least I learned a new word. Spell check is showing the word as misspelled, which I guess shows how little known the word is.

cop·ro·phil·i·a
/ˌkäprəˈfilēə/
noun
intense interest and pleasure in feces and defecation, especially as a source of sexual arousal.

Of course sensational shit (pun intended) like this is gonna overwhelm any discussion of his music with most regular people out there. Just as similar stories did with Michael Jackson, Gary Glitter, Rolf Harris, R. Kelly and many others.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:12:28 PM UTC-4, Mark D. wrote:

On Nov 4, 2023 at 3:02:22 PM CDT, "Bill B" <bb...@optonline.net> wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 10:01:08 AM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:

I wish I hadn't volunteered to read this book. I'm still reeling from
just leafing through it. He makes R. Kelly look like a choirboy. This
was truly a monstrous, horrible human being.

I assume you're talking about "Chuck Berry: An American Life" by RJ Smith. I was surprised to read the reviews. You make it sound like a hatchet job whereas the reviews praise it as sympathetic.
Here's one of those reviews:

Thanks for this, Bill. It's always good, and rather reare nowadays, to see common sense in full bloom.

I must say that I don't get the apparent need that you and Bill seem to have to defend Chuck over these alleged strange proclivities here. Just because you love his music has nothing to do with what kind of human being that he was. You guys did not know
him. For all you know he was apiece of shit (pun intended) as a person. Imagine the shit (pun intended) that he did that has never comes out!

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:38:33 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

I must say that I don't get the apparent need that you and Bill seem to have to defend Chuck over these alleged strange proclivities here. Just because you love his music has nothing to do with what kind of human being that he was. You guys did not

know him. For all you know he was a piece of shit (pun intended) as a person. Imagine the shit (pun intended) that he did that has never comes out!

Does "I'll see for myself" sound like I'm defending him? And neither was Mark.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:46:00 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:38:33 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

I must say that I don't get the apparent need that you and Bill seem to have to defend Chuck over these alleged strange proclivities here. Just because you love his music has nothing to do with what kind of human being that he was. You guys did not

know him. For all you know he was a piece of shit (pun intended) as a person. Imagine the shit (pun intended) that he did that has never comes out!

Does "I'll see for myself" sound like I'm defending him? And neither was Mark.

In effect it does since you're never gonna see the videos.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:55:48 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:53:50 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:49:44 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:46:00 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:38:33 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

I must say that I don't get the apparent need that you and Bill seem to have to defend Chuck over these alleged strange proclivities here. Just because you love his music has nothing to do with what kind of human being that he was. You guys did

not know him. For all you know he was a piece of shit (pun intended) as a person. Imagine the shit (pun intended) that he did that has never comes out!

Does "I'll see for myself" sound like I'm defending him? And neither was Mark.

In effect it does since you're never gonna see the videos.

Huh? "I'll see for myself" refers to what I think of the book, not the validity of the accusations.

So what do you think of the validity of the stories?

I haven't read the book yet. I don't even know what the stories are. I might change my mind after I do read it, but I currently feel like there is merit to them. That would lessen my opinion of the man, but have no effect on my opinion of the music. And
the music is paramount in my opinion of Chuck Berry.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:53:50 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:49:44 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:46:00 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:38:33 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

I must say that I don't get the apparent need that you and Bill seem to have to defend Chuck over these alleged strange proclivities here. Just because you love his music has nothing to do with what kind of human being that he was. You guys did

not know him. For all you know he was a piece of shit (pun intended) as a person. Imagine the shit (pun intended) that he did that has never comes out!

Does "I'll see for myself" sound like I'm defending him? And neither was Mark.

In effect it does since you're never gonna see the videos.

Huh? "I'll see for myself" refers to what I think of the book, not the validity of the accusations.

So what do you think of the validity of the stories? I wouldn't call them "accusations." Nobody wanted to arrest him or anything. People just talked about what they saw in the videos.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:49:44 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:46:00 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:38:33 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

I must say that I don't get the apparent need that you and Bill seem to have to defend Chuck over these alleged strange proclivities here. Just because you love his music has nothing to do with what kind of human being that he was. You guys did not

know him. For all you know he was a piece of shit (pun intended) as a person. Imagine the shit (pun intended) that he did that has never comes out!

Does "I'll see for myself" sound like I'm defending him? And neither was Mark.

In effect it does since you're never gonna see the videos.

Huh? "I'll see for myself" refers to what I think of the book, not the validity of the accusations.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:05:32 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:55:48 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

So what do you think of the validity of the stories?

I haven't read the book yet. I don't even know what the stories are.

You said you had heard about the eating shit stuff like 10 years ago. Everyone knows the underage girls stories. He went to jail for that. And he had serious charges over the cameras in the ladies room at his amusement park. He probably used to watch the
women take a shit and jerk off to it.

I might change my mind after I do read it, but I currently feel like there is merit to them. That would lessen my opinion of the man, but have no effect on my opinion of the music. And the music is paramount in my opinion of Chuck Berry.

That's the way it should be. "Billie Jean" is still a great record no matter how many young boys that Michael molested.

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On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 8:30:56 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

That's old news. My son told me about it years ago. Not sure if it's true. Were the videos viewed by the author?

Al Goldstein, the pornographer, sold these videos back in the '90s.
They were reportedly very grainy.
Goldstein could not even legally claim that they showed Berry.
He titled the videos "Is this Chuck Berry?"

--
BR

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:12:00 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:05:32 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:55:48 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

So what do you think of the validity of the stories?

I haven't read the book yet. I don't even know what the stories are.

You said you had heard about the eating shit stuff like 10 years ago. Everyone knows the underage girls stories. He went to jail for that. And he had serious charges over the cameras in the ladies room at his amusement park. He probably used to watch

the women take a shit and jerk off to it.

I might change my mind after I do read it, but I currently feel like there is merit to them. That would lessen my opinion of the man, but have no effect on my opinion of the music. And the music is paramount in my opinion of Chuck Berry.

That's the way it should be. "Billie Jean" is still a great record no matter how many young boys that Michael molested.

But the music is not paramount in my opinion of Michael Jackson.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:22:31 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:12:00 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:05:32 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:55:48 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

So what do you think of the validity of the stories?

I haven't read the book yet. I don't even know what the stories are.

You said you had heard about the eating shit stuff like 10 years ago. Everyone knows the underage girls stories. He went to jail for that. And he had serious charges over the cameras in the ladies room at his amusement park. He probably used to watch

the women take a shit and jerk off to it.

I might change my mind after I do read it, but I currently feel like there is merit to them. That would lessen my opinion of the man, but have no effect on my opinion of the music. And the music is paramount in my opinion of Chuck Berry.

That's the way it should be. "Billie Jean" is still a great record no matter how many young boys that Michael molested.

But the music is not paramount in my opinion of Michael Jackson.

I see, so like the originality thing, your opinion on bad things that some musicians have done is only paramount if you don't love their music. Okay.

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On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:31:12 PM UTC-4, Bob Roman wrote:

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 8:30:56 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

That's old news. My son told me about it years ago. Not sure if it's true. Were the videos viewed by the author?

Al Goldstein, the pornographer, sold these videos back in the '90s.
They were reportedly very grainy.
Goldstein could not even legally claim that they showed Berry.
He titled the videos "Is this Chuck Berry?"

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/chuck-berrys-complicated-sex-scandal-ridden-rock-n-roll-legacy-9179376

I also remember learning something new about Berry in 1991 as I watched a video of a man purported to be Berry pissing on a young, blonde woman while waiting for Crash Worship to take the stage at the Kennel Club in San Francisco that spring. While Crash
Worship's ritualistic musical bacchanal was way more memorable than the video, seeing what might have been one of the legends of rock 'n' roll taking a piss on another human being on the big-screen TV next to the stage was pretty alarming, even for those
days.

This site below features a lot of the stories.

https://www.disgracelandpod.com/067/chuck-berry

https://www.npr.org/2000/07/02/1076141/maybellene

Quote from Chuck:

"'Maybellene' has the same rhythm as 'Ida Red,' like dah-di-dah, you know, 'Maybellene,' 'Ida Red,' you know. So rhythm I had, but I had somebody else's title, you know. So that's how "Maybellene" came up."

After the recording session, Berry returned to St. Louis, where he worked for his father's construction company and was studying to become a hairdresser. He and the band were now playing three nights a week, and they'd begun to draw a more diverse
audience. White people were showing up to hear this strange, new mix of blues, R&B and country and western. But after several weeks, Berry still hadn't heard from Leonard Chess. He had no idea what was happening with his songs. Then one day in August, he
heard it.

"Passing by a tailor shop that I got my high school graduation coat made at, and I passed by the shop until the song played out, you know; I didn't want anybody to see me listening, you know, to — but it was 'Maybellene' I was listening to. And when it
played out, you know, that was my last walk past the door of the place. And I flew home — you know, I was about 20 blocks from home — and told everybody, `I heard it, I heard it, I heard it. I heard me sing.' And these are relatives; these are people
that live on the block. So that was the first time I heard it: that day, nice, sunny day, beautiful day. Knocked me out to hear myself, you know."

Propelled by its persistent driving rhythm, "Maybellene" quickly rose to No. 1 on the R&B charts. Two weeks later, in August 1955, it hit No. 5 on the all-important pop chart. At WINS in New York, disc jockey Alan Freed played the song for two hours
straight one night. And down South, a relatively unknown singer named Elvis Presley began to include the song in his own performances.

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Youtube video mocks Chuck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpEHtIivk7g

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Diane brought the new book over. Here is an excerpt.

"I saved Chuck from near death many, many times" explained Allen Bloom, an employee of Irvin Field (tour promoter) traveling with the Greatest Show. In those days it wasn't exactly 'southern hospitality.' Chuck had a perverted sense of whatever. The
closest call was in the Carolinas."

This was probably several days after Mobile, on April 4, or 5 (1957) when the show played Charlotte, and then Winston-Salem. "He was caught in the back seat of his car with a young white girl. I was able to talk the police out of putting him in jail
forever, or lynching him."

Chuck Berry was an African American astronaut on an extended solo flight to violate established practices in business, culture, social mores, and laws. He was putting everything on the line. It was confusing to those around him and he didn't even seem to
try and explain it, maybe not even to himself. But he was just getting comfortable.

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I always tell sports people that great players don't necessarily have the skills required to analyze the talents of value of other players. The same goes for musicians. Just because they are great at what they do does not mean they are gonna necessarily
be able to recognize or properly evaluate talent or value in others.

Here's another excerpt.

In the spring (1957) when the tour played Ottawa a stranger gee whizzed his way backstage to Chuck's dressing room where he sang to the startled star a ballad he had written. The tune was named "Diana" and Berry called it "the worst song he ever heard"
Anka remembered. Chuck told the visitor "not to quit his day job." Fats Domino was more polite when Anka visited him, but no more interested. Security removed him from the backstage area.

Months after getting tossed he was then performing with Berry and Domino, performing his song for appreciative crowds.

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On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 21:12:00 UTC, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:05:32 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:55:48 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

So what do you think of the validity of the stories?

I haven't read the book yet. I don't even know what the stories are.

You said you had heard about the eating shit stuff like 10 years ago. Everyone knows the underage girls stories. He went to jail for that. And he had serious charges over the cameras in the ladies room at his amusement park. He probably used to watch

the women take a shit and jerk off to it.

I might change my mind after I do read it, but I currently feel like there is merit to them. That would lessen my opinion of the man, but have no effect on my opinion of the music. And the music is paramount in my opinion of Chuck Berry.

That's the way it should be. "Billie Jean" is still a great record no matter how many young boys that Michael molested.

Damn right!

What about Jerry Lee Lewis? Does the fact that under the laws of my country (and I imagine under the laws most of you guys live with) he could quite rightly have faced a charge of paedophilia have any bearing on your opinion of his great recordings? Of
course not

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On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 1:55:08 AM UTC-4, Roger Ford wrote:

On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 21:12:00 UTC, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:05:32 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:55:48 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

So what do you think of the validity of the stories?

I haven't read the book yet. I don't even know what the stories are.

You said you had heard about the eating shit stuff like 10 years ago. Everyone knows the underage girls stories. He went to jail for that. And he had serious charges over the cameras in the ladies room at his amusement park. He probably used to watch

the women take a shit and jerk off to it.

I might change my mind after I do read it, but I currently feel like there is merit to them. That would lessen my opinion of the man, but have no effect on my opinion of the music. And the music is paramount in my opinion of Chuck Berry.

That's the way it should be. "Billie Jean" is still a great record no matter how many young boys that Michael molested.

Damn right!

What about Jerry Lee Lewis? Does the fact that under the laws of my country (and I imagine under the laws most of you guys live with) he could quite rightly have faced a charge of paedophilia have any bearing on your opinion of his great recordings? Of

course not

And my comment about Michael Jackson did not take anything away from my opinion of his music. It just indicated my opinion of Jackson is one which encompasses the man and his music and, in his case, the man is an utter failure. I give more weight to his
pervasions than to his music. In Chuck's case, that is reversed.

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On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:44:34 AM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

And my comment about Michael Jackson did not take anything away from my opinion of his music. It just indicated my opinion of Jackson is one which encompasses the man and his music and, in his case, the man is an utter failure. I give more weight to

his perversions than to his music. In Chuck's case, that is reversed.

Interesting. So again you are inconsistent. Chuck gets a pass on molesting underage girls because you love his music, but Jackson doesn't get a pass on his alleged molesting of little boys because you don't love his music. Or does the same sex molesting
just bother you more?

And in Chuck's case he actually went to jail for what he did. Jackson was acquitted in court and the stories about him remain just that.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 11:17:23 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:44:34 AM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

And my comment about Michael Jackson did not take anything away from my opinion of his music. It just indicated my opinion of Jackson is one which encompasses the man and his music and, in his case, the man is an utter failure. I give more weight to

his perversions than to his music. In Chuck's case, that is reversed.

Interesting. So again you are inconsistent. Chuck gets a pass on molesting underage girls because you love his music, but Jackson doesn't get a pass on his alleged molesting of little boys because you don't love his music. Or does the same sex

molesting just bother you more?

And in Chuck's case he actually went to jail for what he did. Jackson was acquitted in court and the stories about him remain just that.

Let me make it even clearer. Chuck's music is infinitely ahead of MJs, and MJs personal failures are ahead of Chucks. Molesting little boys is worse than sex with underage girls.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:03:03 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

Let me make it even clearer. Chuck's music is infinitely ahead of MJs, and MJs personal failures are ahead of Chucks. Molesting little boys is worse than sex with underage girls.

So how little do the boys have to be to make it worse than Chuck fucking 14 year old girls?

If the boys were 12, is that worse than Chuck with a 14 year old girl?

11, 10, what's the cutoff?

How young would a girl that Chuck fucked have to be for his personal failures to be bad enough for that to trump his music? 13, 12, 11, 10, what's the cutoff?

Don't forget, Chuck was doing this shit when he was over 30. It's not like he was a high school senior fucking a freshman. A 33 year old man fucking a 14 year old girl would be like 20 years in the pokey.

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On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:39:14 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:03:03 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

Let me make it even clearer. Chuck's music is infinitely ahead of MJs, and MJs personal failures are ahead of Chucks. Molesting little boys is worse than sex with underage girls.

So how little do the boys have to be to make it worse than Chuck fucking 14 year old girls?

If the boys were 12, is that worse than Chuck with a 14 year old girl?

11, 10, what's the cutoff?

How young would a girl that Chuck fucked have to be for his personal failures to be bad enough for that to trump his music? 13, 12, 11, 10, what's the cutoff?

Don't forget, Chuck was doing this shit when he was over 30. It's not like he was a high school senior fucking a freshman. A 33 year old man fucking a 14 year old girl would be like 20 years in the pokey.

What do you think? Is Chuck or MJ the better person? The better musician?

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On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:19:37 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:00:19 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:39:14 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:03:03 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

Let me make it even clearer. Chuck's music is infinitely ahead of MJs, and MJs personal failures are ahead of Chucks. Molesting little boys is worse than sex with underage girls.

So how little do the boys have to be to make it worse than Chuck fucking 14 year old girls?

If the boys were 12, is that worse than Chuck with a 14 year old girl?

11, 10, what's the cutoff?

How young would a girl that Chuck fucked have to be for his personal failures to be bad enough for that to trump his music? 13, 12, 11, 10, what's the cutoff?

Don't forget, Chuck was doing this shit when he was over 30. It's not like he was a high school senior fucking a freshman. A 33 year old man fucking a 14 year old girl would be like 20 years in the pokey.

What do you think? Is Chuck or MJ the better person? The better musician?

I'll answer that after you answer all the above questions that you just ignored.

I'd be afraid too to answer my questions if my opinion was contrary to popular opinion like I think yours is.
Your questions were ridiculous and don't deserve a response. My questions were fair and do.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:00:19 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:39:14 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:03:03 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

Let me make it even clearer. Chuck's music is infinitely ahead of MJs, and MJs personal failures are ahead of Chucks. Molesting little boys is worse than sex with underage girls.

So how little do the boys have to be to make it worse than Chuck fucking 14 year old girls?

If the boys were 12, is that worse than Chuck with a 14 year old girl?

11, 10, what's the cutoff?

How young would a girl that Chuck fucked have to be for his personal failures to be bad enough for that to trump his music? 13, 12, 11, 10, what's the cutoff?

Don't forget, Chuck was doing this shit when he was over 30. It's not like he was a high school senior fucking a freshman. A 33 year old man fucking a 14 year old girl would be like 20 years in the pokey.

What do you think? Is Chuck or MJ the better person? The better musician?

I'll answer that after you answer all the above questions that you just ignored.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:40:26 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:31:52 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

What do you think? Is Chuck or MJ the better person? The better musician?

I'll answer that after you answer all the above questions that you just ignored.

I'd be afraid too to answer my questions if my opinion was contrary to popular opinion like I think yours is.
Your questions were ridiculous and don't deserve a response. My questions were fair and do.

Shouldn't that be "yours are?"

Looks like we are at an impasse. Why would you be afraid if your opinions are contrary to popular opinion?

Your honor, the witness is nonresponsive. Please direct him to answer the question.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:31:52 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:19:37 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:00:19 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:39:14 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:03:03 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

Let me make it even clearer. Chuck's music is infinitely ahead of MJs, and MJs personal failures are ahead of Chucks. Molesting little boys is worse than sex with underage girls.

So how little do the boys have to be to make it worse than Chuck fucking 14 year old girls?

If the boys were 12, is that worse than Chuck with a 14 year old girl?

11, 10, what's the cutoff?

How young would a girl that Chuck fucked have to be for his personal failures to be bad enough for that to trump his music? 13, 12, 11, 10, what's the cutoff?

Don't forget, Chuck was doing this shit when he was over 30. It's not like he was a high school senior fucking a freshman. A 33 year old man fucking a 14 year old girl would be like 20 years in the pokey.

What do you think? Is Chuck or MJ the better person? The better musician?

I'll answer that after you answer all the above questions that you just ignored.

I'd be afraid too to answer my questions if my opinion was contrary to popular opinion like I think yours is.
Your questions were ridiculous and don't deserve a response. My questions were fair and do.

Shouldn't that be "yours are?"

Looks like we are at an impasse. Why would you be afraid if your opinions are contrary to popular opinion?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/4/2023 4:02 PM, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 10:01:08 AM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:

I wish I hadn't volunteered to read this book. I'm still reeling from
just leafing through it. He makes R. Kelly look like a choirboy. This
was truly a monstrous, horrible human being.

I assume you're talking about "Chuck Berry: An American Life" by RJ Smith.
I was surprised to read the reviews. You make it sound like a hatchet job whereas the reviews praise it as sympathetic.

------------
I didn't think the book was a hatchet job at all. The author frequently expresses his appreciation, if not awe, for Berry's body of work. But
the stuff about his personal life that was "old news" to you was new
and, okay, extremely shocking and disturbing to me. And it *was*
reminiscent of the things that landed R. Kelly in prison for the rest of
his life. That's me, not Smith.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:31:52 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:19:37 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 3:00:19 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:39:14 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 2:03:03 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

Let me make it even clearer. Chuck's music is infinitely ahead of MJs, and MJs personal failures are ahead of Chucks. Molesting little boys is worse than sex with underage girls.

So how little do the boys have to be to make it worse than Chuck fucking 14 year old girls?

If the boys were 12, is that worse than Chuck with a 14 year old girl?

11, 10, what's the cutoff?

How young would a girl that Chuck fucked have to be for his personal failures to be bad enough for that to trump his music? 13, 12, 11, 10, what's the cutoff?

Don't forget, Chuck was doing this shit when he was over 30. It's not like he was a high school senior fucking a freshman. A 33 year old man fucking a 14 year old girl would be like 20 years in the pokey.

What do you think? Is Chuck or MJ the better person? The better musician?

I'll answer that after you answer all the above questions that you just ignored.

I'd be afraid too to answer my questions if my opinion was contrary to popular opinion like I think yours is.
Your questions were ridiculous and don't deserve a response. My questions were fair and do.

Actually my questions to not need to be answered for the point to be made that your two different standards for Chuck and MJ are ridiculous. The way I mocked your opinions speaks for itself.

As far as who is the better musician, personally, for my tastes, Chuck is better, but objectively as for who was the more significant musician I'd have to go for MJ, as I did on this list I put together of the 300 greatest popular music artists.

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_artistspop.html

As for which was the worse human being, I don't think it's even close. The molestation stuff pretty much cancels each other out, and then we're left with Chuck as a perverted nut who put cameras in women's bathrooms to watch them shit, who liked to eat
shit, who like to piss on women and who knows what else. He did 3 (or was it 4) different prison stretches for grand theft auto, the Mann act, tax evasion, and other crimes, along with losing a big civil suit over the cameras in the women's bathrooms. He
was also a sullen asshole who went from town to town refusing to even rehearse with the local band and that was to back him that night. From all accounts He was nasty to everybody he came into contact with. He totally disrespected his wife with his
actions.

Then there's MJ. A very soft spoken, polite and kind person who MAY have been a pedophile, although that was never officially proven in court, where he was acquitted of those charges. But even if he was, so was Chuck. Other than those things, by all
accounts, MJ was a really nice guy. As for the first boy whose father accused MJ of molestation, Jordan Chandler gave police a description of Jackson's genitals. A strip search was made, and the jurors felt the description was not a match.

To me, Chuck was the worse human being BY FAR.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 4:59:16 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

As far as who is the better musician, personally, for my tastes, Chuck is better, but objectively as for who was the more significant musician I'd have to go for MJ, as I did on this list I put together of the 300 greatest popular music artists.

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_artistspop.html

As for which was the worse human being, I don't think it's even close.
To me, Chuck was the worse human being BY FAR.

Does the fact that the molestation by MJ was against non consenting children while Chuck's was presumably against consenting adults or near adults enter into your evaluation?

Anyway, I might agree with your evaluation of who was the better person, though I feel Chuck has offsetting virtues like his understanding of the human condition and his putting it into words, but I strongly disagree with your musical consideration
position. MJ was merely a Frankie Lymon descendant and Chuck was a revered innovator. I might have a better informed position after I finish the book.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:45:04 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 4:59:16 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

As far as who is the better musician, personally, for my tastes, Chuck is better, but objectively as for who was the more significant musician I'd have to go for MJ, as I did on this list I put together of the 300 greatest popular music artists.

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_artistspop.html

As for which was the worse human being, I don't think it's even close.
To me, Chuck was the worse human being BY FAR.

Does the fact that the molestation by MJ was against non consenting children

The accusations of MJ (which he was acquitted of) were also supposedly consented to by those minors. He wasn't holding them down and forcing them to put their dicks in his mouth, or whatever else was being done.

while Chuck's was presumably against consenting adults or near adults enter into your evaluation?

A 14 year old is a "near" adult?

Have you taken into account that Chuck's molestation was proven in court (at least once) while MJ's accusations never were? He was acquitted and he claimed that the accusers were just parents looking for money. Do you believe in our justice system, or
not?

Anyway, I might agree with your evaluation of who was the better person, though I feel Chuck has offsetting virtues like his understanding of the human condition and his putting it into words, but I strongly disagree with your musical consideration

position. MJ was merely a Frankie Lymon descendant.

That's insane. The biggest part of MJ's career came as an adult, and even when he was young there was no resemblance at all between the Jackson's 5's sound and Lymon's sound. The fact that they were both boys whose voices had not changed yet is not
enough to relate Lymon and Jackson to each other musically. I doubt that MJ even knew who Lymon was in 1969 when his first hit record entered the charts. MJ was imitating James Brown, Jackie Wilson, and other big black acts of the 60s in his early days.

and Chuck was a revered innovator. I might have a better informed position after I finish the book.

Diane can't take anymore and is returning the book to the library tomorrow. Michael Jackson is far more influential on what music sounds like now than Chuck is. Not just the sound, but the clothes, the shoes, the dancing that is in most big acts shows
now, etc....Chuck's influence was very very big for like 25 years from when he started, but MJ's influence is still huge now over 50 years from when he started. They may not be influential to what you or I listen to, but the music that is now popular in
much of the word is much more influenced by MJ than by Chuck.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:45:04 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

Anyway, I might agree with your evaluation of who was the better person, though I feel Chuck has offsetting virtues like his understanding of the human condition and his putting it into words, but I strongly disagree with your musical consideration

position.

A few more notes:

Googles' Bard says in response to the question "who was more influential:" In terms of critical acclaim, Chuck Berry has a slight edge over Michael Jackson".

In referring to Chuck's innovation, I neglected to mention the more important factor in my comparison of the two: Repertoire. Chuck has over thirty high quality records that I greatly enjoy and MJ has maybe three that I like.

As to who was the better person, I asked myself which one would I choose my son to be like. If it was Chuck, I would think here is a great artist who I wish was not such a jerk. If he was MJ, I would think: Oh no! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/5/2023 1:55 AM, Roger Ford wrote:

On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 21:12:00 UTC, Bruce wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 5:05:32 PM UTC-4, Bill B wrote:

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 4:55:48 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:

So what do you think of the validity of the stories?

I haven't read the book yet. I don't even know what the stories are.

You said you had heard about the eating shit stuff like 10 years ago. Everyone knows the underage girls stories. He went to jail for that. And he had serious charges over the cameras in the ladies room at his amusement park. He probably used to watch

the women take a shit and jerk off to it.

I might change my mind after I do read it, but I currently feel like there is merit to them. That would lessen my opinion of the man, but have no effect on my opinion of the music. And the music is paramount in my opinion of Chuck Berry.

That's the way it should be. "Billie Jean" is still a great record no matter how many young boys that Michael molested.

Damn right!

What about Jerry Lee Lewis? Does the fact that under the laws of my country (and I imagine under the laws most of you guys live with) he could quite rightly have faced a charge of paedophilia have any bearing on your opinion of his great recordings? Of

course not

-----------
If his marriage to Myra had not been bigamous, it would have been
perfectly legal in those Southern states at the time. There's a
campaign now to make child marriage illegal nationwide, but as usual the religious nuts are fiercely opposing it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 6:27:25 AM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 5:45:04 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

Anyway, I might agree with your evaluation of who was the better person, though I feel Chuck has offsetting virtues like his understanding of the human condition and his putting it into words, but I strongly disagree with your musical consideration

position.

A few more notes:

Googles' Bard says in response to the question "who was more influential:" In terms of critical acclaim, Chuck Berry has a slight edge over Michael Jackson".

Bard?

The other day I asked Bard if Roy Orbison ever recorded any Beatles songs. Bard said that he had top 10 Billboard chart hits in early 1964 with his versions of "From Me To You" and "Do You Want To Know A Secret." Actually he never recorded either song.
Bard just makes shit up like 25% of the time according to an article that Diane read about carious AI programs.

Even if Chuck was slightly more influential than MJ, Chuck gets destroyed in popularity. MJ is the third most popular act ever after the Beatles and Elvis. Chuck is not even close to being one of the 100 most popular recording acts in history. Acclaimed
Music, which ranks artists based on critical acclaim has MJ #29 and Chuck #68.

http://acclaimedmusic.net/top_artists/t0.htm

In referring to Chuck's innovation, I neglected to mention the more important factor in my comparison of the two: Repertoire. Chuck has over thirty high quality records that I greatly enjoy and MJ has maybe three that I like.

As to who was the better person, I asked myself which one would I choose my son to be like. If it was Chuck, I would think here is a great artist who I wish was not such a jerk. If he was MJ, I would think: Oh no! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

YOU would think?

You've already shown your bias against gay/trans people with your disgust over the Little Richard movie, so I'm not surprised that you would prefer someone who molests girls to someone who molests boys. So I guess that Chuck's multiple prison sentences
would not bother you as much as MJ's apparent effeminate mannerisms. What's worse in your eyes, sucking dick or eating shit?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:22:20 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

You've already shown your bias against gay/trans people with your disgust over the Little Richard movie

Do you call this "disgust":
Mark D:

I did not get ANY of this feeling that you did. I am 2/3 through with the show and it's really good....better than I was expecting. I had forgotten about his travels in the late 40s and early 50s before he had ever recorded. He was with 2 or 3

different traveling shows and even appeared on stage as a woman at times.
Me:
I just watched the rest of it and agree that it was really good.

What you are misinterpreting is my objection to having the lifestyle shoved in my face, not the lifestyle itself, per this quote:
"I have no problem with members of the LBGTQ community being proud of their sexuality, but I do wish the lifestyle wasn't constantly being shoved in my face."

For your information, I have had many gay or lesbian friends during my life, some of them dear friends. I just lost one of them recently, but I was in constant contact with her in Florida throughout the years.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:43:50 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

For your information, I have had many gay or lesbian friends during my life, some of them dear friends. I just lost one of them recently, but I was in constant contact with her in Florida throughout the years.

I just had a fond recollection. I even shared a bed with a gay guy. I didn't know he was gay at the time, but when I did, we remained friends for many years.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 2:43:50 PM UTC-5, Bill B wrote:

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 11:22:20 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:

You've already shown your bias against gay/trans people with your disgust over the Little Richard movie

Do you call this "disgust":
Mark D:

I did not get ANY of this feeling that you did. I am 2/3 through with the show and it's really good....better than I was expecting. I had forgotten about his travels in the late 40s and early 50s before he had ever recorded. He was with 2 or 3

different traveling shows and even appeared on stage as a woman at times.

Me:
I just watched the rest of it and agree that it was really good.

What you are misinterpreting is my objection to having the lifestyle shoved in my face, not the lifestyle itself, per this quote:
"I have no problem with members of the LBGTQ community being proud of their sexuality, but I do wish the lifestyle wasn't constantly being shoved in my face."

Molesting boys is kinda shoving it in your face.

The fact that you would prefer a son that molests girls and eats shit and pisses on women and is a prick to virtually everyone he encounters and who did several prison stretches over a son who molests boys, sucks cock, and who was never convicted of any
crime is very telling to me. I'm not a father, but what I thought of my son's music would not be any kind of a deciding factor in which one of the two I would take. And if monetary success is a factor for you.

Upon his death, Michael's net worth was estimated to be around $500 million. His estate has earned over $100 million a year since then.

Chuck - Just days after rock n' roller's death, figures reveal a $50 million fortune.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)