• #### Helping IDing Scale

From Kyle Jacobs@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 30 08:31:27 2015
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

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• From Steven Charles White@21:1/5 to Kyle Jacobs on Fri Oct 30 15:44:44 2015
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 8:31:29 AM UTC-7, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

Hi! I'm afraid I don't know the answer, but I'm curious whether it's intentional that there are two Ds and no Es. It looks like a scale formula of 1 2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 (unison, major second, minor third, perfect fourth, diminished fifth, major sixth, minor
seventh). That's like taking the major scale formula (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) and dropping the iii by an augmented unison, so changing iii from 3 5 7 to b3 b5 b7). Starting it on the note A would give you A B C D Eb F# G. I'm interested where you saw this scale.
-Steve

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to Kyle Jacobs on Fri Oct 30 16:52:58 2015
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:31:29 AM UTC-5, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

Well, if you start from the G note and with one respelling, you have this

G A B C D Eb F# G

With the 3rd of this scale lowered a semitone you have this

G A Bb C D Eb F# G

and this is called the G harmonic minor scale.

So you could logically call this a G major harmonic scale. or anything you want.

I can't think of any particular tune that uses this scale but I seem to recall that it is a scale that might be found in some atonal modal compositions that may have been recorded on the BMI (if I got the initials correct, I am thinking of a British or
European recording company that recorded a lot of this genre of Jazz I think mostly in the 70s but I don't know the details. Possibly an Ebberhart Weber song. I think he is one of the main examples of this type of modal harmony but I could be mistaken
here.

If this is what your are looking for, you might note that this mode could be rotated to begin on any of the notes of the scale just as the Church modes could be used to produce the Dorian Phyrigian, Lydian etc.

It might be used or at least mentioned In a theory book written by Ron Miller on modal harmony.

I hope this helps you out a bit.

L J S
element7music.com

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 31 07:46:33 2015
Hi Steve, IN RE:

Hi! I'm afraid I don't know the answer, but I'm curious whether it's intentional that there are two Ds and no Es. It looks like a scale formula of 1 2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 (unison, major second, minor third, perfect fourth, diminished fifth, major sixth, minor
seventh). That's like taking the major scale formula (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) and dropping the iii by an augmented unison, so changing iii from 3 5 7 to b3 b5 b7). Starting it on the note A would give you A B C D Eb F# G. I'm interested where you saw this scale.
-Steve

**********
I would just point out that when doing an analysis, you might try to look for the most simple solution. When scales are involved the process I state in a previous post is an example of how to simplify. The notation you use or description you use is
perfectly fine but if instead of using that particular notation, you had just looked at the total picture, you would have seen that one enharmonic notation change would give you a much simpler problem to deal with as you can immediately see how this
tone set relates to the real world of scales.

Traditional scales are usually more understandable if you look at the tetrachords. That said, the notation you use is the simple way of working with different modes especially in an atonal setting. This notation is used at times in that Ron Miller theory
book I was referring to and it is very useful and it is very useful for seeing the nuances of the more esoteric altered modes.

I am curious how you came about using that particular notation. I don't understand how your use of it is pretty right on but you did not see the enharmonic change and the relationship to the parent scale of Gmaj?

Thanks for helping to keep up the tradition of sharing knowledge and helping others that was this group before it was kidnapped by some non musical and rather perverted conversations.

LJS

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to Kyle Jacobs on Sat Oct 31 06:09:01 2015
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:31:29 AM UTC-5, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

Hi, I already posted what those notes suggest tome below. I would like to point out a couple of things that might help you get better responses.

The first thing that makes it difficult that the notation is strange. If you are trying to see if this is a recognized scale notate it as a standard scale. You have seven notes but you have used the same note twice ( D and D#) when a recognized 7 tone
scale would have used D and Eb.

Now you have seven different notes and they include all of the note names. ABCDEFG. Now you have the makings of a recognized or traditional scale. You may notice that this is also the white notes on a piano. This is would be the Aeolian mode or the
Natural Minor relative to the parent scale of Cmaj.

Now you look at the accidentals in your tone set. The first one that I notice is the F#. This would give you a Gmaj scale beginning on the second note. The F# is the leading tone of Gmaj and that changes your point of reference away from parent scale of
Cmajor to the parent scale of Gmaj and places your set of notes from Aeolean to Dorian. With the f# you have a Dorian mode with Parent of Gmaj.

We we look at the Eb and that gives us another clue. Since you are now thinking in the parent G scale, what does this Eb suggest? If you are familiar with the basic scales used in Western Civilization, there is only one scale that has the tetra chord
with the the tetrachord D Eb F# G. This arrangement of notes that forms this tetrachord is only present in the Harmonic Minor scale.

With this established you have the lower tetrachord of Gmajor with the upper tetrachord of Gmin Harmonic.

So this is not one of the four main types of scales used in traditional functional music since rthe beginning of the Baroque era. But we also know it is a combination of two scales that are.

So we are pointed to the direction of an altered scale. We can name it if we "invented" and that is what the scale would be. If someone else invented it, then their name might be accepted as its name but it is still a combination of the lower tetracord
of major and the upper tetrachord of Harmonic Minor.

But you start the scale on the note of Anatural. So this would be the altered Dorian version of this Combo Scale that I would call the "harmonic Major" only because it involves one tetrachord of the harmonic minor and one of the pure major. But remember
that I am talking about the Parent Scale. One common way of talking about modes refers to the rotation of the starting tone through the parent scale. Your choice of tones start on the second step of the Gmajor scale. I would call this an altered Dorian
on parent scale Gmaj. Some might say its on the second rotation of Parent G and it might have several other ways of describing this same concept.

That is just about all that can be said of the scale itself.

Some useful information in your post would be to tell us how did YOU come to choose this particular set of notes. I have a clue that you did not hear it in a composition or solo you were transcribing as you ask for an example of where it was used. So I
have to assume that you were noodling around and came up with this tone set. Other wise, well, you would already have an example of where it was used. But it also creates uncertainty as to how you discovered this scale. The combination of this and your
notation suggests that you are a beginning student of music. That is great that you are interested and seeking to find answers and that is why I am giving you this model of analytical process. My suggestion would be to do some basic scale theory research
and see exactly what scales are and what their characteristics are and just look for general knowledge of scales and modes and tone sets. They are all related and understanding scales will open up lots of doors for you.

If you (as I do) find newsgroups are hard to work with, you can contact me through my "in progress" web site, <element7music.com> you can contact me through any of the contact boxes and it will send an email to me directly. There is, of course, no charge
for sending an email and I will respond.

You may find this particular scale in Jazz theory books or web sites. That was my Ron Miller reference but there are other places that you could find with google that will provide more about altered scales then anyone needs to know.

My personal philosophy leads me more to playing music from your inner self based upon your own knowledge and experience by ear rather than to find a "cool" scale and work find ways to make music from that source but as a teacher, I help the student find
his own way. I am a teacher not a preacher. I take a student from where they are and find a way to get them to where they want to go. I am saying this with limited knowledge of your experience. Please understand that I am stereotyping and mean nothing
bad with this assumption as to what I am making by the very little I see in your post. Its good to experiment and I hope that you were playing around and you discovered this scale on your own by ear. that would be the best case scenario for your quest to
learn music. I have been around enough know that there are many different ways that students learn. My teaching experience has taught me how to adjust the process of learning to fit the students individual way of learning and to allow them to find their
own way of creating music. I am a teacher of music, not a preacher of how I play.

LJS
element7music.com

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 31 07:57:45 2015
Hey Joey,

Good to hear from you! Interesting that we both came up with the same conclusion. I thought that was one of the multitude of Jazz altered scales.

I am glad you are still following the group. Some others have been asking about you. But I am not sure if I see all of the posts. So maybe you have been posting and I have been missing you and other posts. Please let me know if that is the case.

You can send me an email through my site if you like, any of the contact boxes will come directly to me. I would like to see what you have been doing.

LJS
element7music.com

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• From Joey Goldstein@21:1/5 to Kyle Jacobs on Sat Oct 31 10:22:02 2015
On 2015-10-30 11:31 AM, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

That's the 2nd mode (or "rotation") of the g harmonic major (G A B C D
Eb F# G) scale.
In a jazz improvisation that scale might be useful on an Am7b5 chord
when used in the key of G major.
But that would be an unusual choice.

The harmonic major scale and its modes are not used routinely in jazz.
But the 5th mode is sometimes used on V7b9 in major keys. (e.g. D Eb F#
G A B C D - on D7b9 as V7b9 in G major.)
I like the 3rd mode too on dom7#9#5 chords too. (e.g. B C D D# F# G A B
- on B7#5#9 as V7 in E minor.)
The 7th mode is often useful on dim7 chords too. (e.g. F# G A B C D Eb
F# - on F#dim7 in G major.)

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

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• From Steven Charles White@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 31 16:17:42 2015
Haha, you make a good point, I think I just made a couple of very basic blunders. The first thing I did was to extract the intervals from the series of notes, and by doing so I threw away the value in those particular notes (the F#-G) specifically, which
should have been a huge clue but I completely missed it like a dufus. :) And then I overlooked that fact that it could have been a rotation, but I'm less ashamed of myself for that. :)

I picked up that scale formula notation from reading books, I can't actually say exactly where. But it's the same as chord formula notation to my mind. 1 b3 5 is just as much the start of a minor scale formula as 1 b3 5 is a minor triad. Things like "b7"
and "b5" are used in abbreviated names of some seventh chords, too, although they're not entirely consistent, e.g. "b7" doesn't appear in the dominant 7th.

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• From Joey Goldstein@21:1/5 to Joey Goldstein on Sun Nov 1 09:38:57 2015
On 2015-10-31 10:22 AM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
On 2015-10-30 11:31 AM, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a
recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

That's the 2nd mode (or "rotation") of the g harmonic major (G A B C D
Eb F# G) scale.
In a jazz improvisation that scale might be useful on an Am7b5 chord
when used in the key of G major.
But that would be an unusual choice.

The harmonic major scale and its modes are not used routinely in jazz.
But the 5th mode is sometimes used on V7b9 in major keys. (e.g. D Eb F#
G A B C D - on D7b9 as V7b9 in G major.)
I like the 3rd mode too on dom7#9#5 chords too. (e.g. B C D D# F# G A B
- on B7#5#9 as V7 in E minor.)
The 7th mode is often useful on dim7 chords too. (e.g. F# G A B C D Eb
F# - on F#dim7 in G major.)

PS

If anyone's ever gotten around to naming that scale, A B C D Eb F# G,
it's probably called "A Dorian b5".

D Eb F# G A B C is usually called Mixolydian b2.

B C D Eb F# G A doesn't have a name as far as I know but "B Phrygian b4"
might be a candidate.

F# G A B C D Eb doesn't have a name either, but it should. "F# Locrian b7"?

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to Steven Charles White on Sun Nov 1 14:14:21 2015
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 6:17:44 PM UTC-5, Steven Charles White wrote:
Haha, you make a good point, I think I just made a couple of very basic blunders. The first thing I did was to extract the intervals from the series of notes, and by doing so I threw away the value in those particular notes (the F#-G) specifically,
which should have been a huge clue but I completely missed it like a dufus. :) And then I overlooked that fact that it could have been a rotation, but I'm less ashamed of myself for that. :)

I think we all have had our "dufus" moments. The first think I try to look for is the simplicity so correcting that D# to an Eb gives you the second clue.

Your overlooking the rotation surprised me because of my association with your scale notation and my experience with the Atonal Modal concepts. Rotation is a big part of that and modal thinking in particular is all about rotation. Analyzing and studying
modal music in general is the concept of a "parent scale". This concept is very useful when looking at music that is somewhere like maybe tonal or maybe modal or maybe a combination of the two.

I picked up that scale formula notation from reading books, I can't actually say exactly where. But it's the same as chord formula notation to my mind. 1 b3 5 is just as much the start of a minor scale formula as 1 b3 5 is a minor triad. Things like "
b7" and "b5" are used in abbreviated names of some seventh chords, too, although they're not entirely consistent, e.g. "b7" doesn't appear in the dominant 7th.

I find that the arabic numbers and accidentals are most useful with the modal and atonal music and music that uses "tone sets" as a composition tool, but I find tetrachord thinking is very underrated in modal thinking, but there is not any one thing that
will solve all problems. The only universal tool for analyzing that I have found over the years is "critical thinking skills" and I employ teaching that in all of my teachings. Bloom's Taxonomy is useful for a lot of things, (maybe even all things) but
the nice thing about it is that it is both teachable and it is easy to be self taught. I recommend reading Bloom's for so many reasons. IF you are not familiar with it, I suggest that you (and everyone) spend some time looking at it. If anyone needs any
help getting started studying it, I am will help them get started. Its really easy to practice and improve thinking skills.

LJS
element7music.com

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 1 14:38:14 2015
a scale formula of 1 2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 (unison, major second, minor third, perfect fourth, diminished fifth, major sixth, minor seventh).
e
LJS: This reminds me of an ear training exercise that I thought I had on my site but upon looking, I think I lost it there in one of the revisions. (I will update it there when I get a chance) It is a Kodaly exercise that students studying to teach
Kodaly use to improve their ear training during their workshops. If it is not there, email me and I can send it to you or others if it isn't there. If its there it would be in Learning Center --> Free stuff.

But the 5 pentaton exercises is there and that is the preparation for this tone set exercise. The 5 Pentaton exercise is great for improving one's tonal ear. It really solidifies tonality and helps improve intonation as well. Its another thing I highly
recommend.

LJS

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• From Kyle Jacobs@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 2 07:40:34 2015
Thanks for the generous responses, everyone!

I didn't come up with that series of notes myself and I certainly wasn't trying to be cool (posting to a group where the regs know more than I do and admitting I didn't know what the hell the notes represented).

Since some of you asked, I took a few lessons from a music instructor (a jazz musician) a long time ago. He talked extremely quickly (so my notes were always incomplete at best), and his lectures meandered all over the place. So my initiation of this
topic was merely an attempt at making sense of some of something retrieved from an old notebook.

Thanks for the interpreting.

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to Kyle Jacobs on Tue Nov 3 07:26:31 2015
On Monday, November 2, 2015 at 9:40:36 AM UTC-6, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Thanks for the generous responses, everyone!

I didn't come up with that series of notes myself and I certainly wasn't trying to be cool (posting to a group where the regs know more than I do and admitting I didn't know what the hell the notes represented).

Since some of you asked, I took a few lessons from a music instructor (a jazz musician) a long time ago. He talked extremely quickly (so my notes were always incomplete at best), and his lectures meandered all over the place. So my initiation of this
topic was merely an attempt at making sense of some of something retrieved from an old notebook.

Thanks for the interpreting.

That makes good sense. Its unfortunate that the teacher did not take more care to actually make sure that the message was clear. Good for you that you kept notes and now after some time are trying to put the pieces together. That in itself is a great
start to using and improving your critical thinking skill and by doing that with music theory, the results over time will likely be very enlightening for you.

My approach, if by some chance I wanted to present that scale to you, would have been to have you sing the scale in some exercises that I have picked up while studying tone sets in Kodaly training. The only scale that I can remember being given to me as
an assignment was the scale used by Scriabin. I think it was called the mystic scale. (I am editing my notes on the exercise an hope to have this process on my site soon. The important thing about scales is the ability to hear them and by hearing them, I
mean to be able to hear them fluently and that includes the ability to sing them and to not just learn up and down scale exercises, but to learn the scale as fluently as the Major scale. Skips, patterns, natural tendencies of resolutions of notes and the
scales inherent to that scale and the functional or non functional aspects of the scale. Then, of course the chords that are built on that scale. In short, you want to be able to hear, feel and think in that scale. Then your ear will automatically tell
your body how and when to use that scale. This is of course a bit old school but the extra time and effort to learn music that way, especially functional harmony that is used in most Jazz music.

But back to your theory quest. You are definitely on the right track to research your experiences and to try to understand what you already know and work from there. If at all possible, I recommend that you work with a good theory teacher at least enough
to find out what you do know. I only have one piece of advice with choosing a teacher and that is to try to find a TEACHER and not a PREACHER! If you want to literally follow in someone's footsteps, look for a Preacher. OR, if you don't have a lot of
bucks to spend, just buy some recording of your idol and transcribe solos and analyze what he is doing (or she!)

I don't want students that want to play like me. First of all, no one has the same experiences as I have and thus, even if I was a Bill Evans, you would only get what I had already done! And that has already been done. You would be a clone of the teacher.
I believe a Teacher should put the student in touch with himself and then teach him how to use what he has to make music based upon his own experiences. Then as critical thinking is expanded and put to use with music, musical creativity will take place.
Add the ability to learn how to listen to your inner self as you play instead of trying to preconceive your solo and recreating it in context as you play. If you learn to listen to what your inner self is telling you, you feed the theory into your
subconscious and not only does your subconscious know the theory you put into it, it also knows your technique better than you will admit and it will (using the critical thinking skills you taught it) will choose things that you can play that follows the
parameters of what you know about music. This is not as difficult as it might seem at first and is pretty much the way that most great improvisers play although they have reached that level in many different ways.

If, on the other hand, you want to just play weekend gigs with limited repertoire "top 40 standards" then take a free course on Coursera or someplace from Berklee and study how to apply the 120 mode system or if you go back to the 60s, the 60 chord
system and you are good to go.

Which ever course you choose, please try to stay in touch with open forums like this (if we can restore it to the way it was in years past) or keep in touch with your demographic and continue to learn all you can about making music. (enough preaching

Thanks for the question and I hope it will be the first of many. Do not hesitate to contact me or the others through this group of by personal email (to those that allow that) about ANYTHING you do not understand. I think you will find many different
approaches and lots of good advice and information.

LJS
element7music.com

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 4 08:56:24 2015
Here is the exercise that does not work on my site in Free Stuff concerning tone sets I referred to in previous post.

tone set ear training

This exercise helps the student to hear the various intervals included in the tone set and how they relate to each other and the implied tonality of the tone set.
This example of the process uses the 5 tones of the major pentatonic scale. In elementary level, it may start with smaller portions of this set such as: m_sl, drm, l_s_m_d as well as drm_sl
note: d = DO, r = RE, m=Mi etc.

Here is the prep for singing exercise using the drm_sl.

The first thing you do is to look at the tone set and start with the smallest interval. One easy way is to look at each starting with the first tone and the distance between the next tone of the set.

Dr = major second
rm = major second
ms = minor third
sl = major second
ld = minor third
Then you start with the first tone again and to all the intervals that skip a tone in the set.
dm = major third
ds = perfect fifth
d l = major sixth
We continue from the Re
r s = perfect fourth
r l = perfect fifth
r d' = minor seventh
Then from the Mi
m l = perfect fourth (ms already done)
m d' = ;minor sixth
Then
s d' = perfect fourth

For this example and from a pragmatic standpoint, at the beginning stages of the exercise, do not exceed the one octave of the tone set. For advanced study you can add the next octave.

You arrange this list in order of smallest to largest
major 2 = dr, rm, sl
minor 3 = sl, la d'
major 3 = dm
Perfect4= rs, ml, sd'
Perfect5= ds, rl
Minor6 = md'
The exercise: starting on a comfortable note that will allow you to go up an octave, sing the SolFa syllable and the name of the interval. The SAME STARTING NOTE is used for ALL the intervals. This is the same as for the 5 Pentaton exercises which is a
good preparation for this exercise or a sister exercise for this exercise. Both are important parts of learning to hear functional music and music in general.

Sing dr singing DO RE say Major second while singing ddrr, sing RE Mi while saying rm and sing Major second while singing rrmm etc. (all these details are important.

you go through the list and for each interval you say the SolFa as you sing the SolFa and then you repeat sinting the SolFa as you sing the name of the interval.

This is repeated for each interval with the different names for all of the combinations of the tone set. What you are doing is drilling yourself with the various names of the same intervals as they appear in the different settings within the tone set.
This is important as it teaches you context of the intervals. For example, the three different major 2nds have a different function within the scale. This is important if you want to hear common chord modulations. SolFa is one way of defining function
and it is an important part of training the ear to hear function. Saying the intervals trains you to hear linear intervals which would allow you to sight sing random or serial tone sets such as twelve tone melodies. Its a good exercise and has many
useful applications related to ear training.

This is the first part of the exercise using just the pentatonic scale. The next step would be to start on the higher note and sing the intervals down. When doing so, remember that a major second inverts to a minor 7th and a major 3rd inverts to a minor
6th, a minor 3rd inverts to a Major 6th, a Perfect 5th to a perfect 4th.

Then of course you can expand the exercise to the tones to two octaves or how ever far you can go. Generally this would be done to includes the tones below the common starting note and above the original set until you get all the intervals that are
included in the octave but the sky's the limit.

Remember that all the singing starts at the SAME common starting tone. That starting note changes its name for each set to start the interval on that same tone.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions either here on by email through a contact box on the site.

LJS
element7music.com

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• From J.B. Wood@21:1/5 to Joey Goldstein on Fri Nov 6 06:55:32 2015
On 10/31/2015 10:22 AM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
On 2015-10-30 11:31 AM, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a
recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

That's the 2nd mode (or "rotation") of the g harmonic major (G A B C D
Eb F# G) scale.
In a jazz improvisation that scale might be useful on an Am7b5 chord
when used in the key of G major.
But that would be an unusual choice.

The harmonic major scale and its modes are not used routinely in jazz.
But the 5th mode is sometimes used on V7b9 in major keys. (e.g. D Eb F#
G A B C D - on D7b9 as V7b9 in G major.)
I like the 3rd mode too on dom7#9#5 chords too. (e.g. B C D D# F# G A B
- on B7#5#9 as V7 in E minor.)
The 7th mode is often useful on dim7 chords too. (e.g. F# G A B C D Eb
F# - on F#dim7 in G major.)

Hello, everyone, and especially Joey (good to have some old timers still lurking and also posting). Yes, that scale is as Joey states. But even outside of jazz "harmonic major" isn't discussed in most music theory references. If we lower the B in the referenced scale to a Bb then we
would obtain a G harmonic minor scale. The harmonic minor and melodic
minor scales are widely used in classical western music. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail: arl_123234@hotmail.com

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 4 13:31:13 2015
On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 10:56:26 AM UTC-6, e7m wrote:
Here is the exercise that does not work on my site in Free Stuff concerning tone sets I referred to in previous post.

tone set ear training

This exercise helps the student to hear the various intervals included in the tone set and how they relate to each other and the implied tonality of the tone set.
This example of the process uses the 5 tones of the major pentatonic scale. In elementary level, it may start with smaller portions of this set such as: m_sl, drm, l_s_m_d as well as drm_sl
note: d = DO, r = RE, m=Mi etc.

Here is the prep for singing exercise using the drm_sl.

The first thing you do is to look at the tone set and start with the smallest interval. One easy way is to look at each starting with the first tone and the distance between the next tone of the set.

Dr = major second
rm = major second
ms = minor third
sl = major second
ld = minor third
Then you start with the first tone again and to all the intervals that skip a tone in the set.
dm = major third
ds = perfect fifth
d l = major sixth
We continue from the Re
r s = perfect fourth
r l = perfect fifth
r d' = minor seventh
Then from the Mi
m l = perfect fourth (ms already done)
m d' = ;minor sixth
Then
s d' = perfect fourth

For this example and from a pragmatic standpoint, at the beginning stages of the exercise, do not exceed the one octave of the tone set. For advanced study you can add the next octave.

You arrange this list in order of smallest to largest
major 2 = dr, rm, sl
minor 3 = sl, la d'
major 3 = dm
Perfect4= rs, ml, sd'
Perfect5= ds, rl
Minor6 = md'
The exercise: starting on a comfortable note that will allow you to go up an octave, sing the SolFa syllable and the name of the interval. The SAME STARTING NOTE is used for ALL the intervals. This is the same as for the 5 Pentaton exercises which is
a good preparation for this exercise or a sister exercise for this exercise. Both are important parts of learning to hear functional music and music in general.

Sing dr singing DO RE say Major second while singing ddrr, sing RE Mi while saying rm and sing Major second while singing rrmm etc. (all these details are important.

you go through the list and for each interval you say the SolFa as you sing the SolFa and then you repeat sinting the SolFa as you sing the name of the interval.

This is repeated for each interval with the different names for all of the combinations of the tone set. What you are doing is drilling yourself with the various names of the same intervals as they appear in the different settings within the tone set.
This is important as it teaches you context of the intervals. For example, the three different major 2nds have a different function within the scale. This is important if you want to hear common chord modulations. SolFa is one way of defining function
and it is an important part of training the ear to hear function. Saying the intervals trains you to hear linear intervals which would allow you to sight sing random or serial tone sets such as twelve tone melodies. Its a good exercise and has many
useful applications related to ear training.

This is the first part of the exercise using just the pentatonic scale. The next step would be to start on the higher note and sing the intervals down. When doing so, remember that a major second inverts to a minor 7th and a major 3rd inverts to a
minor 6th, a minor 3rd inverts to a Major 6th, a Perfect 5th to a perfect 4th.

Then of course you can expand the exercise to the tones to two octaves or how ever far you can go. Generally this would be done to includes the tones below the common starting note and above the original set until you get all the intervals that are
included in the octave but the sky's the limit.

Remember that all the singing starts at the SAME common starting tone. That starting note changes its name for each set to start the interval on that same tone.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions either here on by email through a contact box on the site.

LJS
element7music.com

As you complete this exercise, you really know what the (in this case Pentatonic) scale sounds like and you will find that sight singing in that scale is so much easier than you could imagine. Remember that when this is applied to the major scale tone set, that it also gives you the skills for singing in all of the modes as well. In the Kodaly system, You do not use
DO as the C note for all the modes. For the Dorian mode, the tonic note is
RE. For Lydian it is Mi. etc. If you modulate from Cmajor directly to the Aeolian or relative minor, you would use the same SolFa for the same notes.
The only accidentals would be Sis for the Sol Sharp in the Harmonic minor
and Fis for the Fa sharp in the ascending form of the Melodic minor. As
such, if you were to inject your scale into Cmaj, the SolFa would be the
same note for note as in Cmaj except that you would have the Me or Mi Flat instead of Mi in your SoFa.

Most musicians that studied SolFa in the US do not use this approach to
sight singing. The system that we use in the US is Movable Do however and
is more functional and modaly friendly than the Fixed DO system often used
in European schools. In Europe they use more of the arabic number system
that was used in the scale description in Stephen's response. In2 that translation, the SolFa would be

6 71 2 3 4 #5 6

Sounds a bit strange and complicated but it really is much simpler than it
seem and with Joey's suggestions about the possible use of this scale, you would be using the same SolFa syllables with the appropriate alteration of
one note for the various rotations that Joey mentioned as to what use the Harmonic Major would be. Thus, with the ear training, you would have the
tools necessary to hear the tones by ear using SolFa and you would be able
to transpose it to any of the keys quite easily to any key that you know as well as Cmaj on any instrument.

I hope this gives you some food for thought and some insight into another
way of looking at scales.

LJS
element7music.com

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• From e7m@21:1/5 to J.B. Wood on Fri Nov 6 13:07:31 2015
On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 5:55:35 AM UTC-6, J.B. Wood wrote:
On 10/31/2015 10:22 AM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
On 2015-10-30 11:31 AM, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a
recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

Hey J B. Glad to hear from you. If we keep it up, one by one we may get most of the old group back!
It would be nice to catch up with what we all have been doing. We really did go through a lot of material back then. I enjoyed sharing with both the novices and the more experienced theorists and bouncing ideas and concepts off each other.

I hope things are well for you and welcome back.

LJS
element7music.com

That's the 2nd mode (or "rotation") of the g harmonic major (G A B C D
Eb F# G) scale.
In a jazz improvisation that scale might be useful on an Am7b5 chord
when used in the key of G major.
But that would be an unusual choice.

The harmonic major scale and its modes are not used routinely in jazz.
But the 5th mode is sometimes used on V7b9 in major keys. (e.g. D Eb F#
G A B C D - on D7b9 as V7b9 in G major.)
I like the 3rd mode too on dom7#9#5 chords too. (e.g. B C D D# F# G A B
- on B7#5#9 as V7 in E minor.)
The 7th mode is often useful on dim7 chords too. (e.g. F# G A B C D Eb
F# - on F#dim7 in G major.)

Hello, everyone, and especially Joey (good to have some old timers still lurking and also posting). Yes, that scale is as Joey states. But even outside of jazz "harmonic major" isn't discussed in most music theory references. If we lower the B in the referenced scale to a Bb then we
would obtain a G harmonic minor scale. The harmonic minor and melodic
minor scales are widely used in classical western music. Sincerely,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail: arl_123234@hotmail.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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• From Daniel Schorr@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 10 05:29:21 2015
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:53:00 PM UTC-4, e7m wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:31:29 AM UTC-5, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

Well, if you start from the G note and with one respelling, you have this

G A B C D Eb F# G

With the 3rd of this scale lowered a semitone you have this

G A Bb C D Eb F# G

and this is called the G harmonic minor scale.

So you could logically call this a G major harmonic scale. or anything you want.

I can't think of any particular tune that uses this scale but I seem to recall that it is a scale that might be found in some atonal modal compositions that may have been recorded on the BMI (if I got the initials correct, I am thinking of a British or
European recording company that recorded a lot of this genre of Jazz I think mostly in the 70s but I don't know the details. Possibly an Ebberhart Weber song. I think he is one of the main examples of this type of modal harmony but I could be mistaken
here.

If this is what your are looking for, you might note that this mode could be rotated to begin on any of the notes of the scale just as the Church modes could be used to produce the Dorian Phyrigian, Lydian etc.

It might be used or at least mentioned In a theory book written by Ron Miller on modal harmony.

I hope this helps you out a bit.

L J S
element7music.com

Harmonic minor scale is used a lot by what they call "Neo-Classical" heavy metal shred guitarists. There's a guy Yngwie Malmsteen who uses it all the time. It's sort of his trademark actually. He plays in harmonic minor, does some diminished runs, and
then uses the scale starting on the fifth degree over the dominant, which gives him D Major Phygian. Is that what the call it? Phrygian with a major 3rd.Maybe they call it Phygian Dominant - I can't remember - but it sounds good. For a while at least. It
does get old quick.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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• From e7m@21:1/5 to Daniel Schorr on Tue Nov 10 15:32:56 2015
On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:29:23 AM UTC-6, Daniel Schorr wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:53:00 PM UTC-4, e7m wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:31:29 AM UTC-5, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

Well, if you start from the G note and with one respelling, you have this

G A B C D Eb F# G

With the 3rd of this scale lowered a semitone you have this

G A Bb C D Eb F# G

and this is called the G harmonic minor scale.

So you could logically call this a G major harmonic scale. or anything you want.

I can't think of any particular tune that uses this scale but I seem to recall that it is a scale that might be found in some atonal modal compositions that may have been recorded on the BMI (if I got the initials correct, I am thinking of a British
or European recording company that recorded a lot of this genre of Jazz I think mostly in the 70s but I don't know the details. Possibly an Ebberhart Weber song. I think he is one of the main examples of this type of modal harmony but I could be mistaken
here.

If this is what your are looking for, you might note that this mode could be rotated to begin on any of the notes of the scale just as the Church modes could be used to produce the Dorian Phyrigian, Lydian etc.

It might be used or at least mentioned In a theory book written by Ron Miller on modal harmony.

I hope this helps you out a bit.

L J S
element7music.com

Harmonic minor scale is used a lot by what they call "Neo-Classical" heavy metal shred guitarists. There's a guy Yngwie Malmsteen who uses it all the time. It's sort of his trademark actually. He plays in harmonic minor, does some diminished runs, and
then uses the scale starting on the fifth degree over the dominant, which gives him D Major Phygian. Is that what the call it? Phrygian with a major 3rd.Maybe they call it Phygian Dominant - I can't remember - but it sounds good. For a while at least. It
does get old quick.

Hey Danny. I was thinking of you lately and would have tried to contact you in NYC a couple of weeks ago but I had a really bad experience with United Airlines that took away 2 of the 5 days I had open to visit NY including travel. Maybe next time.

Good to hear from you. I was wondering if you ever took that exercise through the entire cycle!! That was the last I heard from you. I hope it helped you in some way. What I understand you were doing was a formidable task. But then again, you would be
fluent in all the keys and all the chords when you finished.

There has been a slow but steady trickle back of the old group lately, I hope it continues to grow. It was really nice to have things to keep the mind working with theory.

Please contact me either here or through the site or personal email. I would like to do a bit of catching up.

LJS
element7music.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Daniel Schorr@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 10 20:32:10 2015
Oh, that's too bad. I'm in New Jersey now - NYC got too expensive, and boring! - but I would have definitely met up for lunch. Hope you had a good trip.

I had problems at first learning how to conceptualize the modes in an order different from the rote memory way we usually think of them, but not for long. Wasn't too difficult once I adjusted to it.

Yeah, I just randomly decided to check on this place after reading some questions on another music theory site.was surprised to see the old familiar names attached to the messages.Am not surprised - this was the best music theory group I've ever seen
when it was in it's heyday.

if OP is still here and interested in harmonic Minor scales - this video starting at 2:20 kind of gives an idea of the scale usage I was talking about in the other post

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 6:32:58 PM UTC-5, e7m wrote:
On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:29:23 AM UTC-6, Daniel Schorr wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:53:00 PM UTC-4, e7m wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:31:29 AM UTC-5, Kyle Jacobs wrote:
Can someone tell me if this -- A, B, C, D, D#, F#, G -- is a recognized scale? What is it, and what's a piece of music based on it?

Thanks.

Well, if you start from the G note and with one respelling, you have this

G A B C D Eb F# G

With the 3rd of this scale lowered a semitone you have this

G A Bb C D Eb F# G

and this is called the G harmonic minor scale.

So you could logically call this a G major harmonic scale. or anything you want.

I can't think of any particular tune that uses this scale but I seem to recall that it is a scale that might be found in some atonal modal compositions that may have been recorded on the BMI (if I got the initials correct, I am thinking of a
British or European recording company that recorded a lot of this genre of Jazz I think mostly in the 70s but I don't know the details. Possibly an Ebberhart Weber song. I think he is one of the main examples of this type of modal harmony but I could be
mistaken here.

If this is what your are looking for, you might note that this mode could be rotated to begin on any of the notes of the scale just as the Church modes could be used to produce the Dorian Phyrigian, Lydian etc.

It might be used or at least mentioned In a theory book written by Ron Miller on modal harmony.

I hope this helps you out a bit.

L J S
element7music.com

Harmonic minor scale is used a lot by what they call "Neo-Classical" heavy metal shred guitarists. There's a guy Yngwie Malmsteen who uses it all the time. It's sort of his trademark actually. He plays in harmonic minor, does some diminished runs,
and then uses the scale starting on the fifth degree over the dominant, which gives him D Major Phygian. Is that what the call it? Phrygian with a major 3rd.Maybe they call it Phygian Dominant - I can't remember - but it sounds good. For a while at least.
It does get old quick.

Hey Danny. I was thinking of you lately and would have tried to contact you in NYC a couple of weeks ago but I had a really bad experience with United Airlines that took away 2 of the 5 days I had open to visit NY including travel. Maybe next time.

Good to hear from you. I was wondering if you ever took that exercise through the entire cycle!! That was the last I heard from you. I hope it helped you in some way. What I understand you were doing was a formidable task. But then again, you would be
fluent in all the keys and all the chords when you finished.

There has been a slow but steady trickle back of the old group lately, I hope it continues to grow. It was really nice to have things to keep the mind working with theory.

Please contact me either here or through the site or personal email. I would like to do a bit of catching up.

LJS
element7music.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From e7m@21:1/5 to Daniel Schorr on Thu Nov 12 15:14:09 2015
On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 10:32:15 PM UTC-6, Daniel Schorr wrote:
Oh, that's too bad. I'm in New Jersey now - NYC got too expensive, and boring! - but I would have definitely met up for lunch. Hope you had a good trip.

Once we got to NYC it was fine but the flight was the worst flying experience I have had to date. I won't bore the group with the details but try to fly anyone but United Airlines. A direct flight from New Orleans to Newark, diverted to Baltimore, 11
hours on the plane and then cancelled! No food. Most on the tarmac and UA doesn't want to be bothered with responsibility. But enough said. I am working on it.

I had problems at first learning how to conceptualize the modes in an order different from the rote memory way we usually think of them, but not for long. Wasn't too difficult once I adjusted to it.

Great. I am glad it worked for you. Most of the time I have the students study this approach to tonality on the piano as I can teach them an exercise, even a non piano player, in about 5 minutes and then we can get to work on functional harmony and
improvisation using the white notes. The piano is easier to study theory than the guitar. I do want to discuss with you some of the problems using the process on guitar and how you solved them. I don't want to have to force guitarists to play the piano
to learn theory. I realize that you are a lot more accomplished then the average beginner, but your insights would help me to share this simple system to learn functional harmony by ear and improvisation as I can with using the keyboard. I know its easy
to transfer the knowledge, but to a young beginner, it requires a lot more thinking to convert things than to learn them on their instrument of choice.

Yeah, I just randomly decided to check on this place after reading some questions on another music theory site.was surprised to see the old familiar names attached to the messages.Am not surprised - this was the best music theory group I've ever seen
when it was in it's heyday.

if OP is still here and interested in harmonic Minor scales - this video starting at 2:20 kind of gives an idea of the scale usage I was talking about in the other post

I am having problems with my blue tooth earphones but will try to listen to it later tonight. Thanks for posting it. I am anxious to hear what he is doing.

Talk to you later. Oh, did you ever listen to the Unanswered Question on my site in the learning center on the links page by Bernstein? I don't remember if you did or not and if you did't you should really invest an hour to see what he is saying. Its
really some interesting stuff.

More later. So good to hear from you. I look forward to this group returning to is level in its heyday. Oh, did you find any other interesting groups while you were searching for something else?

LJS
element7music.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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• From e7m@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 14 14:22:08 2015
to danny,

Nothing spectacular. There is a music theory group on reddit.com. A few people there are pretty knowledgeable - some of them really know their stuff. But they tend towards the boring and pedantic side IMO.Plus, there are a lot of "Guitar Theory" posts
which are pretty dumb. And there isn't much life to the discussions.But if you have a specific question, usually someone on there can help you out.
*************************************
Thanks for that. I will check it out. I am still working to learn more about how to present Element7Music to guitar players. Its that chord grip thing and the layout of the strings that hinders free thinking in a linear contrapuntal way. It is so much
easier to visualize on the keyboard.

OH, and I did get to listen to that guitar player you quoted on an earlier post. And yes, it does get old really quick. Not so much the use of the scale, but, well. its the speed. I mean its ONLY the speed. Jts all flourish. there is no real melodic
development or things that you can remember. Things played that fast and ONLY that fast and without any development and no contrast with tempo or dynamics or basically anything, its just tiresome. Yes its cool that he can play that quickly. I got it.
Actually I get it after 5 or 10 seconds. But you can't really sing it and you can't really dance to it and it really doesn't say anything except that he can wiggle his fingers on predictable patterns very fast.

If you remember what started to pull the group apart, the wierdo or what ever, Did you ever listen to any of his music? it was the same thing except the piece I heard was all in emin. I think it was over a blues progression but again, no contrasting
dynamics, no melodic development to speak of that I could recognize and nothing but playing fast.
That stuff is good as far as it goes, but music is made up of SO much more than just how fast you can live stream notes. To me, if the music doesn't convey something other than fast, I get bored and it just is meaningless. One can write programs to play
exercises and then you can play them as fast as computers can spit them out and there is just as much message there as if a human does it.

But thanks. Maybe sometimes I will put a pdf of him or someone like that into something like Transcribe! and slow it down to see if it is more interesting but I doubt that it will be. Probably just the same think except slower!

Thanks for the post and conversation. Talk more later.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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• From Daniel Schorr@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 14 13:12:40 2015
On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 6:14:11 PM UTC-5, e7m wrote:
On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 10:32:15 PM UTC-6, Daniel Schorr wrote:
Oh, that's too bad. I'm in New Jersey now - NYC got too expensive, and boring! - but I would have definitely met up for lunch. Hope you had a good trip.

Once we got to NYC it was fine but the flight was the worst flying experience I have had to date. I won't bore the group with the details but try to fly anyone but United Airlines. A direct flight from New Orleans to Newark, diverted to Baltimore, 11
hours on the plane and then cancelled! No food. Most on the tarmac and UA doesn't want to be bothered with responsibility. But enough said. I am working on it.

United is horrible for domestic - I flew United to England, though and they were very good.

I had problems at first learning how to conceptualize the modes in an order different from the rote memory way we usually think of them, but not for long. Wasn't too difficult once I adjusted to it.

Great. I am glad it worked for you. Most of the time I have the students study this approach to tonality on the piano as I can teach them an exercise, even a non piano player, in about 5 minutes and then we can get to work on functional harmony and
improvisation using the white notes. The piano is easier to study theory than the guitar. I do want to discuss with you some of the problems using the process on guitar and how you solved them. I don't want to have to force guitarists to play the piano
to learn theory. I realize that you are a lot more accomplished then the average beginner, but your insights would help me to share this simple system to learn functional harmony by ear and improvisation as I can with using the keyboard. I know its easy
to transfer the knowledge, but to a young beginner, it requires a lot more thinking to convert things than to learn them on their instrument of choice.

The usual suspects a) running out of room halfway through and having to change register either up or down one octave, and the damn B string complicating everything like it always does. You can do the exercise up and down one string, but you can only
start on the tonic about 50% of the time.

Yeah, I just randomly decided to check on this place after reading some questions on another music theory site.was surprised to see the old familiar names attached to the messages.Am not surprised - this was the best music theory group I've ever seen
when it was in it's heyday.

if OP is still here and interested in harmonic Minor scales - this video starting at 2:20 kind of gives an idea of the scale usage I was talking about in the other post

I am having problems with my blue tooth earphones but will try to listen to it later tonight. Thanks for posting it. I am anxious to hear what he is doing.

Talk to you later. Oh, did you ever listen to the Unanswered Question on my site in the learning center on the links page by Bernstein?

I watched it a few years ago. Probably when it was mention on here.

I don't remember if you did or not and if you did't you should really invest an hour to see what he is saying. Its really some interesting stuff.

More later. So good to hear from you. I look forward to this group returning to is level in its heyday. Oh, did you find any other interesting groups while you were searching for something else?

Nothing spectacular. There is a music theory group on reddit.com. A few people there are pretty knowledgeable - some of them really know their stuff. But they tend towards the boring and pedantic side IMO.Plus, there are a lot of "Guitar Theory" posts
which are pretty dumb. And there isn't much life to the discussions.But if you have a specific question, usually someone on there can help you out.

LJS
element7music.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)