• Frank Zappa Reviews the Singles of October 1968

    From Bruce@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 13 17:52:14 2022
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

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  • From Norbert K@21:1/5 to Bruce on Thu Apr 14 07:46:42 2022
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York City
    album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

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  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to Norbert K on Thu Apr 14 18:30:31 2022
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York City
    album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Norbert K@21:1/5 to geoff on Fri Apr 15 05:12:52 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York City
    album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.
    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.

    geoff

    Every Zappa fan knows that Frank was also enamored with Edgar Varese from a very young age.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Fri Apr 15 23:43:07 2022
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York City
    album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to geoff on Fri Apr 15 06:28:25 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York City
    album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.

    That explains why his records all sucked. He should have stayed with his early. Here's the only good song he ever wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0odI8W2U4

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Norbert K@21:1/5 to Bruce on Fri Apr 15 08:01:28 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:28:26 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York
    City album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.
    That explains why his records all sucked.

    You seemed impressed by the proposition that his influences were mostly black. I point out that one of his influences was not black, and suddenly "all his records sucked"?

    He should have stayed with his early. Here's the only good song he ever wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0odI8W2U4

    I'm not into that style, but that seems like an okay version of it. I only know the town of El Monte from James Ellroy's biography. His memories of it aren't so good.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to Norbert K on Fri Apr 15 09:25:33 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:01:30 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:28:26 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York
    City album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.
    That explains why his records all sucked.
    You seemed impressed by the proposition that his influences were mostly black. I point out that one of his influences was not black, and suddenly "all his records sucked"?

    They always sucked. That's why he never made it into the mainstream. I think he was smart enough to know that he could never make black styled records well so he went in a different direction. I really liked the guy when he was a talk show guest or
    something, but his records sucked shit.

    Frank once named this as his favorite record of all time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbPUsm_DONs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Norbert K@21:1/5 to Bruce on Fri Apr 15 11:09:36 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:25:35 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:01:30 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:28:26 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York
    City album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.
    That explains why his records all sucked.
    You seemed impressed by the proposition that his influences were mostly black. I point out that one of his influences was not black, and suddenly "all his records sucked"?
    They always sucked. That's why he never made it into the mainstream. I think he was smart enough to know that he could never make black styled records well so he went in a different direction. I really liked the guy when he was a talk show guest or
    something, but his records sucked shit.

    Does it sound to you as if he Zappa was striving for the mainstream? Well, okay, from a musical point of view, "Why Does It Hurt When I Pee?" sounds like it belongs on Classic Rock radio. The only problem is that it's about venereal disease. He knew
    perfectly well it wasn't going to top the charts.

    Zappa had his niche (or mutliple niches) and was content with that.

    I was into his TV appearances, too. "Saturday Night Live" was great. I could see that there was something special going on there; he was using his music to make fun of stupid social trends.

    Frank once named this as his favorite record of all time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbPUsm_DONs

    Alright. That's one of the styles he was into.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 15 11:38:08 2022
    Zappa auditioned some friends of mine in the 1970s, the Sparrows Quartette. He totally did not get them and tried to have them go more mainstream and starting doing popular songs like "Under The Boardwalk" and "My Girl." They told him to fuck off. These
    are 4 white Jews and Italians singing in a hardcore black vocal group style.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-mItJxedvU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM1EJ8pUBkk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to Norbert K on Fri Apr 15 11:34:36 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 2:09:38 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:25:35 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:01:30 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:28:26 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New
    York City album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.
    That explains why his records all sucked.
    You seemed impressed by the proposition that his influences were mostly black. I point out that one of his influences was not black, and suddenly "all his records sucked"?
    They always sucked. That's why he never made it into the mainstream. I think he was smart enough to know that he could never make black styled records well so he went in a different direction. I really liked the guy when he was a talk show guest or
    something, but his records sucked shit.

    Does it sound to you as if he Zappa was striving for the mainstream?

    It sounds to me like he knew he didn't have what it took to make big hit records so he hoped to find a niche among other weirdos and outcasts out there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Norbert K@21:1/5 to Bruce on Fri Apr 15 12:24:20 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 2:34:38 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 2:09:38 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:25:35 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:01:30 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:28:26 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New
    York City album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.
    That explains why his records all sucked.
    You seemed impressed by the proposition that his influences were mostly black. I point out that one of his influences was not black, and suddenly "all his records sucked"?
    They always sucked. That's why he never made it into the mainstream. I think he was smart enough to know that he could never make black styled records well so he went in a different direction. I really liked the guy when he was a talk show guest or
    something, but his records sucked shit.

    Does it sound to you as if he Zappa was striving for the mainstream?
    It sounds to me like he knew he didn't have what it took to make big hit records so he hoped to find a niche among other weirdos and outcasts out there.

    From what, exactly do you derive this supposed insight? You wouldn't be projecting or anything.

    Zappa's first album was Freak Out! You've seen the cover -- and you must have heard it, since you say that all of his records sucked. Was this a failed attempt at entering the mainstream?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Norbert K@21:1/5 to Bruce on Fri Apr 15 12:26:50 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 2:38:11 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    Zappa auditioned some friends of mine in the 1970s, the Sparrows Quartette. He totally did not get them and tried to have them go more mainstream and starting doing popular songs like "Under The Boardwalk" and "My Girl." They told him to fuck off.
    These are 4 white Jews and Italians singing in a hardcore black vocal group style.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-mItJxedvU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM1EJ8pUBkk

    They're good singers. Obviously Zappa wasn't the right person for them to turn to.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to Norbert K on Fri Apr 15 14:13:50 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 3:24:22 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

    Zappa's first album was Freak Out! You've seen the cover -- and you must have heard it, since you say that all of his records sucked. Was this a failed attempt at entering the mainstream?

    No, before he started recording he knew that he was never gonna be a artist with big hit records that appealed to regular people, so he tried a sort of half novelty approach hoping that it would maybe appeal to some of the other misfits out there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to Norbert K on Fri Apr 15 15:15:36 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:08:24 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 3:24:22 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

    Zappa's first album was Freak Out! You've seen the cover -- and you must have heard it, since you say that all of his records sucked. Was this a failed attempt at entering the mainstream?
    No, before he started recording he knew that he was never gonna be a artist with big hit records that appealed to regular people,
    You keep saying that. I wonder what it is based on.

    I used to live among (although i had little in common with) a bunch of New Agers. One of them would pronounce that "Musicians all wish they were movie stars. But they don't have the looks, so they play instruments instead."


    This New Agery was false and stupid. Obviously.

    However, I read your posts claiming Zappa secretly craved mainstream attention, and...it seems oddly reminiscent.

    Don't be naïve. EVERY recording artist wants their records to be huge hits.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Norbert K@21:1/5 to Bruce on Fri Apr 15 15:08:23 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 3:24:22 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

    Zappa's first album was Freak Out! You've seen the cover -- and you must have heard it, since you say that all of his records sucked. Was this a failed attempt at entering the mainstream?
    No, before he started recording he knew that he was never gonna be a artist with big hit records that appealed to regular people,

    You keep saying that. I wonder what it is based on.

    I used to live among (although i had little in common with) a bunch of New Agers. One of them would pronounce that "Musicians all wish they were movie stars. But they don't have the looks, so they play instruments instead."


    This New Agery was false and stupid. Obviously.

    However, I read your posts claiming Zappa secretly craved mainstream attention, and...it seems oddly reminiscent.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Norbert K@21:1/5 to Bruce on Fri Apr 15 15:30:05 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:15:37 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:08:24 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 3:24:22 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

    Zappa's first album was Freak Out! You've seen the cover -- and you must have heard it, since you say that all of his records sucked. Was this a failed attempt at entering the mainstream?
    No, before he started recording he knew that he was never gonna be a artist with big hit records that appealed to regular people,
    You keep saying that. I wonder what it is based on.

    I used to live among (although i had little in common with) a bunch of New Agers. One of them would pronounce that "Musicians all wish they were movie stars. But they don't have the looks, so they play instruments instead."


    This New Agery was false and stupid. Obviously.

    However, I read your posts claiming Zappa secretly craved mainstream attention, and...it seems oddly reminiscent.
    Don't be naïve. EVERY recording artist wants their records to be huge hits.

    Whose thoughts do you have direct access to? Which of Zappa's songs do you think he wished would be huge hits?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sat Apr 16 13:14:12 2022
    On 16/04/2022 6:38 am, Bruce wrote:
    Zappa auditioned some friends of mine in the 1970s, the Sparrows Quartette. He totally did not get them and tried to have them go more mainstream and starting doing popular songs like "Under The Boardwalk" and "My Girl." They told him to fuck off.
    These are 4 white Jews and Italians singing in a hardcore black vocal group style.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-mItJxedvU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM1EJ8pUBkk

    I didn't realise that out of tune was a black vocal style.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sat Apr 16 13:08:41 2022
    On 16/04/2022 1:28 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York City
    album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it. >>>
    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.

    That explains why his records all sucked. He should have stayed with his early. Here's the only good song he ever wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0odI8W2U4


    You sure it isn't a parody ?

    I like Bobby Brown Goes Down and Valley Girls best.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sat Apr 16 13:12:15 2022
    On 16/04/2022 6:34 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 2:09:38 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 12:25:35 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:01:30 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:28:26 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote: >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote: >>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York
    City album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.
    That explains why his records all sucked.
    You seemed impressed by the proposition that his influences were mostly black. I point out that one of his influences was not black, and suddenly "all his records sucked"?
    They always sucked. That's why he never made it into the mainstream. I think he was smart enough to know that he could never make black styled records well so he went in a different direction. I really liked the guy when he was a talk show guest or
    something, but his records sucked shit.

    Does it sound to you as if he Zappa was striving for the mainstream?

    It sounds to me like he knew he didn't have what it took to make big hit records so he hoped to find a niche among other weirdos and outcasts out there.


    Or maybe he didn't want to make bland big hit records that all sounded
    the same.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sat Apr 16 13:10:33 2022
    On 16/04/2022 4:25 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:01:30 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:28:26 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 7:43:25 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 15/04/2022 1:30 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 10:46:44 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:52:16 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGOitikmRcE

    He praises Elvin Jones's drumming -- and apparently is reminded of the famous jazz drummer Tony Williams. He adds that Shelly Manne played on his (Zappa's) Lumpy Gravy album.

    Lumpy Gravy is the Zappa album featuring "King Kong," which Zappa's band played at the Fillmore East when they were joined onstage by John and Yoko. When Lennon and Ono included their version of this performance with their Sometime In New York
    City album, they retitled "King Kong" as "Jamrag" and claimed writing credit for it.

    Did you notice that he said that he was mainly only interested in black music when he was young in the 1950s.

    Yep. He broadened his scope subsequently.
    That explains why his records all sucked.
    You seemed impressed by the proposition that his influences were mostly black. I point out that one of his influences was not black, and suddenly "all his records sucked"?

    They always sucked. That's why he never made it into the mainstream. I think he was smart enough to know that he could never make black styled records well so he went in a different direction. I really liked the guy when he was a talk show guest or
    something, but his records sucked shit.

    Frank once named this as his favorite record of all time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbPUsm_DONs





    You don't realise that he was joking ?

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sat Apr 16 13:16:41 2022
    On 16/04/2022 9:13 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 3:24:22 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

    Zappa's first album was Freak Out! You've seen the cover -- and you must have heard it, since you say that all of his records sucked. Was this a failed attempt at entering the mainstream?

    No, before he started recording he knew that he was never gonna be a artist with big hit records that appealed to regular people, so he tried a sort of half novelty approach hoping that it would maybe appeal to some of the other misfits out there.

    Or maybe his music was a reaction to much of the bland shit out there
    that seems to get loved by the masses ?

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to geoff on Fri Apr 15 20:01:41 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:14:30 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 16/04/2022 6:38 am, Bruce wrote:
    Zappa auditioned some friends of mine in the 1970s, the Sparrows Quartette. He totally did not get them and tried to have them go more mainstream and starting doing popular songs like "Under The Boardwalk" and "My Girl." They told him to fuck off.
    These are 4 white Jews and Italians singing in a hardcore black vocal group style.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-mItJxedvU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM1EJ8pUBkk
    I didn't realise that out of tune was a black vocal style.

    You clearly know nothing about 1950s rhythm and blues.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mux8F1iLCm4

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to geoff on Fri Apr 15 19:59:49 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:10:51 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    Frank once named this as his favorite record of all time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbPUsm_DONs




    You don't realise that he was joking ?

    It was no joke. Frank was a huge fan of west coast doo wop records and that one was his favorite.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to geoff on Fri Apr 15 19:58:48 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:09:00 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    That explains why his records all sucked. He should have stayed with his early. Here's the only good song he ever wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0odI8W2U4

    You sure it isn't a parody ?

    Yes, I've heard him discuss writing it and what it meant to him. El Monte was some place he hung out at as a teenager and had great memories from listening to doo wops there with his buddies and girlfriends.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to Norbert K on Fri Apr 15 19:56:57 2022
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:30:07 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:15:37 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:08:24 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 3:24:22 PM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

    Zappa's first album was Freak Out! You've seen the cover -- and you must have heard it, since you say that all of his records sucked. Was this a failed attempt at entering the mainstream?
    No, before he started recording he knew that he was never gonna be a artist with big hit records that appealed to regular people,
    You keep saying that. I wonder what it is based on.

    I used to live among (although i had little in common with) a bunch of New Agers. One of them would pronounce that "Musicians all wish they were movie stars. But they don't have the looks, so they play instruments instead."


    This New Agery was false and stupid. Obviously.

    However, I read your posts claiming Zappa secretly craved mainstream attention, and...it seems oddly reminiscent.
    Don't be naïve. EVERY recording artist wants their records to be huge hits.
    Whose thoughts do you have direct access to? Which of Zappa's songs do you think he wished would be huge hits?

    All of them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sat Apr 16 20:03:32 2022
    On 16/04/2022 3:01 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 9:14:30 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 16/04/2022 6:38 am, Bruce wrote:
    Zappa auditioned some friends of mine in the 1970s, the Sparrows Quartette. He totally did not get them and tried to have them go more mainstream and starting doing popular songs like "Under The Boardwalk" and "My Girl." They told him to fuck off.
    These are 4 white Jews and Italians singing in a hardcore black vocal group style.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-mItJxedvU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM1EJ8pUBkk
    I didn't realise that out of tune was a black vocal style.

    You clearly know nothing about 1950s rhythm and blues.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mux8F1iLCm4

    I cannot imagine that in the 1950s rhythm and blues sung a cappella with
    weak voices, and out of tune was considered to be where it was at.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to geoff on Sat Apr 16 08:33:21 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    I cannot imagine that in the 1950s rhythm and blues sung a cappella with weak voices, and out of tune was considered to be where it was at.

    That's your problem, you can't recognize strong voices when you hear them because you are so unfamiliar with this style of music. And the "out of tune" part, if true here (I certainly don't trust your judgment) was part of the charm of this music. In the
    early to mid-50s the people in these groups were usually still in high school, and you were getting their pure untrained street sound, uncurbed emotions not yet ruined by whitey who did not understand this music.

    Your shit taste probably would prefer this fucking lame shit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXJfT8IjBQc

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sat Apr 16 09:01:16 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 11:33:22 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    I cannot imagine that in the 1950s rhythm and blues sung a cappella with weak voices, and out of tune was considered to be where it was at.
    That's your problem, you can't recognize strong voices when you hear them because you are so unfamiliar with this style of music. And the "out of tune" part, if true here (I certainly don't trust your judgment) was part of the charm of this music. In
    the early to mid-50s the people in these groups were usually still in high school, and you were getting their pure untrained street sound, uncurbed emotions not yet ruined by whitey who did not understand this music.

    Your shit taste probably would prefer this fucking lame shit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXJfT8IjBQc

    Us cognoscenti prefer this reading:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YFr-o0AhsA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sun Apr 17 11:03:33 2022
    On 17/04/2022 4:01 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 11:33:22 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    I cannot imagine that in the 1950s rhythm and blues sung a cappella with >>> weak voices, and out of tune was considered to be where it was at.
    That's your problem, you can't recognize strong voices when you hear them because you are so unfamiliar with this style of music. And the "out of tune" part, if true here (I certainly don't trust your judgment) was part of the charm of this music. In
    the early to mid-50s the people in these groups were usually still in high school, and you were getting their pure untrained street sound, uncurbed emotions not yet ruined by whitey who did not understand this music.

    Your shit taste probably would prefer this fucking lame shit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXJfT8IjBQc

    Us cognoscenti prefer this reading:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YFr-o0AhsA



    That The Simpsons ?

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sun Apr 17 11:02:37 2022
    On 17/04/2022 3:33 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    I cannot imagine that in the 1950s rhythm and blues sung a cappella with
    weak voices, and out of tune was considered to be where it was at.

    That's your problem, you can't recognize strong voices when you hear them because you are so unfamiliar with this style of music. And the "out of tune" part, if true here (I certainly don't trust your judgment) was part of the charm of this music. In
    the early to mid-50s the people in these groups were usually still in high school, and you were getting their pure untrained street sound, uncurbed emotions not yet ruined by whitey who did not understand this music.

    Yep, certainly a part of music and social history. But if you cannot
    hear that The Sparrows (weak voices and out of tune), and The Gazelles
    9lead singer strong voice, backing less so, and all pitch-challenged)
    are singing in what is musically accepted as 'in tune', then you must be tone-deaf.


    Your shit taste probably would prefer this fucking lame shit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXJfT8IjBQc

    That too is execrable in its own cheesy way.

    Are you totally unable to stop living in the past (largely that you
    didn't actually live in !) and attributing dubious values to music
    simply because it is old or historical ?

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to geoff on Sat Apr 16 17:26:20 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 7:03:53 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 17/04/2022 4:01 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 11:33:22 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    I cannot imagine that in the 1950s rhythm and blues sung a cappella with >>> weak voices, and out of tune was considered to be where it was at.
    That's your problem, you can't recognize strong voices when you hear them because you are so unfamiliar with this style of music. And the "out of tune" part, if true here (I certainly don't trust your judgment) was part of the charm of this music.
    In the early to mid-50s the people in these groups were usually still in high school, and you were getting their pure untrained street sound, uncurbed emotions not yet ruined by whitey who did not understand this music.

    Your shit taste probably would prefer this fucking lame shit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXJfT8IjBQc

    Us cognoscenti prefer this reading:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YFr-o0AhsA


    That The Simpsons ?

    That's some TV show, right? Never seen it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From geoff@21:1/5 to Bruce on Sun Apr 17 12:57:18 2022
    On 17/04/2022 12:26 pm, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 7:03:53 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 17/04/2022 4:01 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 11:33:22 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    I cannot imagine that in the 1950s rhythm and blues sung a cappella with >>>>> weak voices, and out of tune was considered to be where it was at.
    That's your problem, you can't recognize strong voices when you hear them because you are so unfamiliar with this style of music. And the "out of tune" part, if true here (I certainly don't trust your judgment) was part of the charm of this music.
    In the early to mid-50s the people in these groups were usually still in high school, and you were getting their pure untrained street sound, uncurbed emotions not yet ruined by whitey who did not understand this music.

    Your shit taste probably would prefer this fucking lame shit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXJfT8IjBQc

    Us cognoscenti prefer this reading:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YFr-o0AhsA


    That The Simpsons ?

    That's some TV show, right? Never seen it.


    Cartoon with silly cheesy voices.

    I've never watched it either, other than accidentally seeing snippets
    like most of the western world probably has and is aware of.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bruce@21:1/5 to geoff on Sat Apr 16 17:25:29 2022
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 7:03:00 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
    On 17/04/2022 3:33 am, Bruce wrote:
    On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 4:03:54 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:

    I cannot imagine that in the 1950s rhythm and blues sung a cappella with >> weak voices, and out of tune was considered to be where it was at.

    That's your problem, you can't recognize strong voices when you hear them because you are so unfamiliar with this style of music. And the "out of tune" part, if true here (I certainly don't trust your judgment) was part of the charm of this music. In
    the early to mid-50s the people in these groups were usually still in high school, and you were getting their pure untrained street sound, uncurbed emotions not yet ruined by whitey who did not understand this music.
    Yep, certainly a part of music and social history. But if you cannot
    hear that The Sparrows (weak voices and out of tune), and The Gazelles
    9lead singer strong voice, backing less so, and all pitch-challenged)
    are singing in what is musically accepted as 'in tune', then you must be tone-deaf.

    Your shit taste probably would prefer this fucking lame shit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXJfT8IjBQc
    That too is execrable in its own cheesy way.

    Are you totally unable to stop living in the past (largely that you
    didn't actually live in !) and attributing dubious values to music
    simply because it is old or historical ?

    You talk like there's something noble about liking more modern music. I like what I like. When these things are from is just incidental. I'm happy to live currently in every other aspect of life other than music. It's not my fault that almost all of the
    music released in the past 35 years or so blows.

    Although, here are some of the more modern recordings that I like a lot. These are ALL from the past 10 years:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaF5Xv9bW1Q

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9bs7Gva8_Q

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iImFUChLo8Q

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJSDYyyPoSo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ar4dnbU-Vo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNFK6EqnlKs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuMokbkkJGE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJRBdLpTeso

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)