• Prohibited songs at Balticon

    From Leslie@21:1/5 to Wolffan on Sat May 29 08:00:12 2021
    On Saturday, May 29, 2021 at 7:06:08 AM UTC-7, Wolffan wrote:
    On 2021 May29, Gary McGath wrote
    (in article <s8tbsp$g4e$1...@dont-email.me>):
    Balticon uses the BSFS code of conduct
    (https://www.bsfs.org/policy.htm). It prohibits "slurs and derogatory comments about a person, group, or category of people."

    That means I wouldn't be allowed to sing the following songs which I've written (with the targets of the derogatory lyrics indicated in parentheses):

    - The Man Who Ought to Be Spurned (Woodrow Wilson)
    - Der Zuckerberg (Facebook)
    - March of Damned Breath (people who endanger others in a pandemic)
    - I Will Block You (Internet trolls and spammers)
    - Rocket Men (Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un)
    - Do You Hear the Filkers Sing (the Finnish Worldcon)
    - Drink the Flint River (officials who covered up water pollution)
    I’ve never been to a worldcon. Various posts here and elsewhere are not exactly encouraging me to go anywhere near one, particularly the next one.

    Hoo-hah! About half of my songs would be prohibited, even the Kiplings, like "Female of the Species". Damn, "Woke-ness" has gone too far. ...Hmmm, maybe somebody should write a song about "Baizhuo", which is what China calls bleeding-heart White
    liberals. I'm thinking that the tune of "Shai-Hulud" would do nicely...

    --Leslie <;)))>< )O(

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sat May 29 13:31:46 2021
    On 5/29/21 1:20 PM, Gary McGath wrote:
    On 5/29/21 12:17 PM, Lee Gold XP wrote:
    On 5/29/2021 5:25 AM, Gary McGath wrote:
    Balticon uses the BSFS code of conduct
    (https://www.bsfs.org/policy.htm). It prohibits "slurs and derogatory
    comments about a person, group, or category of people."

    That means I wouldn't be allowed to sing the following songs which I've
    written (with the targets of the derogatory lyrics indicated in
    parentheses):

    - The Man Who Ought to Be Spurned (Woodrow Wilson)
    - Der Zuckerberg (Facebook)
    - March of Damned Breath (people who endanger others in a pandemic)
    - I Will Block You (Internet trolls and spammers)
    - Rocket Men (Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un)
    - Do You Hear the Filkers Sing (the Finnish Worldcon)
    - Drink the Flint River (officials who covered up water pollution)

    I don't think I've seen many of those.
    In fact, I may not have seen any of them.
    Are they on your webste?

    Der Zuckerberg: http://www.mcgath.com/songs/Zuckerberg.pdf
    Do You Hear the Filkers Sing: http://www.mcgath.com/songs/DoYouHearTheFilkersSing.pdf

    I'm fairly sure I posted "Rocket Men," "I Will Block You," and probably
    some of the others to r.m.f.


    I just added "The Man Who Ought to Be Spurned" to my website.

    http://www.mcgath.com/songs/ManWhoOughtToBeSpurned.pdf

    Wilson wouldn't just have banned me from a con for writing that, he
    would have had me thrown in jail if he could.



    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Leslie@21:1/5 to Dorothy J Heydt on Sun May 30 08:17:48 2021
    On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 7:45:01 AM UTC-7, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
    In article <s8vmpq$qg9$1...@dont-email.me>,
    Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    On 5/30/21 1:09 AM, Arthur T. wrote:
    In Message-ID:<s8uter$kpr$1...@dont-email.me>,
    Joe Kesselman <keshlam.c...@verizon.net> wrote:


    Take the costs of con membership, hotel room, and transportation. Add
    the fuzzier cost of your time. You could be betting all of that
    against someone at con interpreting the rules differently from the
    way a specific person pre-con said they would be interpreted.

    In this case, the costs are zero, since Balticon is being held online
    and not requiring a registration fee. In the more general case, you're >right.

    I see in cons' speech codes a shadow of campus speech codes, which have
    in fact been used to suppress views that those in charge didn't like.

    RPI's security guards told students that they couldn't pass out
    literature criticizing the school on a _public sidewalk_ in front of the >school because of an alleged "eminent domain" claim on the sidewalk. The >school stood by the lie that it had acquired the public property
    adjacent to its campus and that people needed its permission to speak >freely on it.
    Now, there's a little plaque (or was when I last stood at
    Bancroft and Telegraph) set into the sidewalk like two feet from
    the curb at the entrance to UC Berkeley. It says "Property of
    the Regents of the University of California. Permission to pass
    over may be revoked at any time." Presumably the University does
    own, and maintain, that sidewalk.

    What I don't know is whether that plaque was in place *before*,
    or some time *after,* the FSM demonstrations.


    --
    Dorothy J. Heydt
    Vallejo, California
    djheydt at gmail dot com
    Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

    IIRC, the First Amendment forbids the government -- or any subset thereof -- to suppress freedom of speech. If the UC receives any tax money -- and we know it does -- then it can't legally suppress freedom of speech. Haul them into court and sue them.
    Likewise that "permission to pass"; if the UC ever does "revoke" it, then the regents can be sued for all the tax money paid to the U for the past year.

    --Leslie <;)))><

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  • From John Davis@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Sun May 30 08:28:33 2021
    On Saturday, May 29, 2021 at 8:26:02 AM UTC-4, Gary McGath wrote:
    Balticon uses the BSFS code of conduct
    (https://www.bsfs.org/policy.htm). It prohibits "slurs and derogatory comments about a person, group, or category of people."

    That means I wouldn't be allowed to sing the following songs which I've written (with the targets of the derogatory lyrics indicated in parentheses):

    - The Man Who Ought to Be Spurned (Woodrow Wilson)
    - Der Zuckerberg (Facebook)
    - March of Damned Breath (people who endanger others in a pandemic)
    - I Will Block You (Internet trolls and spammers)
    - Rocket Men (Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un)
    - Do You Hear the Filkers Sing (the Finnish Worldcon)
    - Drink the Flint River (officials who covered up water pollution)

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
    Leslie is correct about the 1st amendment applying to Government but the Convention Committee is NOT government.

    Several of those songs are not demeaning to any human for the people it demeans are not qalified to be called humans. They are not even qualified to be called animals. They are Deamons of the lowest levels of Hell. I will not mention which ones
    however.

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  • From Arthur T.@21:1/5 to John Davis on Sun May 30 13:28:41 2021
    In
    Message-ID:<f1bc01b1-8271-453f-8045-d1d956a1f492n@googlegroups.com>,
    John Davis <wa8yxm@gmail.com> wrote:

    Several of those songs are not demeaning to any human for the people it demeans are not qalified to be called humans. They are not even qualified to be called animals. They are Deamons of the lowest levels of Hell.

    Umm, no.

    People may be execrable, but they continue to be human. Many
    atrocities against various groups of people have been justified by
    claiming that they're "not really human" or "not fully human".

    Please don't start down that road. Instead, recognize that humanity
    includes the people you're railing against. And, it includes the
    people who dehumanize others. I would be glad if the people I know
    (even if just online) were part of neither of those segments.

    --
    Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

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  • From Lee Gold XP@21:1/5 to Arthur T. on Sun May 30 13:29:27 2021
    On 5/30/2021 10:28 AM, Arthur T. wrote:
    In
    Message-ID:<f1bc01b1-8271-453f-8045-d1d956a1f492n@googlegroups.com>,
    John Davis <wa8yxm@gmail.com> wrote:

    Several of those songs are not demeaning to any human for the people it demeans are not qalified to be called humans. They are not even qualified to be called animals. They are Deamons of the lowest levels of Hell.

    Umm, no.

    People may be execrable, but they continue to be human. Many
    atrocities against various groups of people have been justified by
    claiming that they're "not really human" or "not fully human".

    Please don't start down that road. Instead, recognize that humanity
    includes the people you're railing against. And, it includes the
    people who dehumanize others. I would be glad if the people I know
    (even if just online) were part of neither of those segments.


    Thank you.
    I was about to comment something like that but
    I'm not sure I would have said it that well.

    --Lee Gold

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Lee Gold XP on Sun May 30 18:55:04 2021
    On 5/30/21 4:29 PM, Lee Gold XP wrote:
    On 5/30/2021 10:28 AM, Arthur T. wrote:
    In
    Message-ID:<f1bc01b1-8271-453f-8045-d1d956a1f492n@googlegroups.com>,
    John Davis <wa8yxm@gmail.com> wrote:

    Several of those songs are not demeaning to any human for the people
    it demeans are not qalified to be called humans. They are not even
    qualified to be called animals.  They are Deamons of the lowest
    levels of Hell.

    Umm, no.

    People may be execrable, but they continue to be human. Many
    atrocities against various groups of people have been justified by
    claiming that they're "not really human" or "not fully human".

    Please don't start down that road. Instead, recognize that humanity
    includes the people you're railing against. And, it includes the
    people who dehumanize others. I would be glad if the people I know
    (even if just online) were part of neither of those segments.


    Thank you.
    I was about to comment something like that but
    I'm not sure I would have said it that well.

    --Lee Gold

    What Lee and Arthur said. I have John blocked and so didn't see his post.

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From John Davis@21:1/5 to Arthur T. on Mon May 31 04:43:59 2021
    On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 1:28:42 PM UTC-4, Arthur T. wrote:
    In
    Message-ID:<f1bc01b1-8271-453f...@googlegroups.com>,
    John Davis <wa8...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Several of those songs are not demeaning to any human for the people it demeans are not qalified to be called humans. They are not even qualified to be called animals. They are Deamons of the lowest levels of Hell.
    Umm, no.

    People may be execrable, but they continue to be human. Many
    atrocities against various groups of people have been justified by
    claiming that they're "not really human" or "not fully human".

    Please don't start down that road. Instead, recognize that humanity
    includes the people you're railing against. And, it includes the
    people who dehumanize others. I would be glad if the people I know
    (even if just online) were part of neither of those segments.
    --
    Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com
    Arthur according to many humans are a species of animal.
    Every OTHER animal cares for their own
    Only Humans kill for sport, Kill for the sake of killing, Kill for reasons other than survival.
    Thus if Humans are part of the animal kingdom. Only those who care about their fellow man are Truly Human.

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  • From Arthur T.@21:1/5 to John Davis on Mon May 31 15:45:32 2021
    In
    Message-ID:<51c859e6-0396-4115-9269-4b501461806cn@googlegroups.com>,
    John Davis <wa8yxm@gmail.com> wrote:

    Arthur according to many humans are a species of animal.
    Every OTHER animal cares for their own
    Only Humans kill for sport, Kill for the sake of killing, Kill for reasons other than survival.
    Thus if Humans are part of the animal kingdom. Only those who care about their fellow man are Truly Human.

    Your premises are incorrect, and your reasoning from them is faulty.

    But since I can't phrase my corrections in rhythm or rhyme, this is
    likely the last I'll say to you on this subject.

    --
    Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com

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  • From heather borean@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Tue Jun 1 11:58:26 2021
    On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 3:22:47 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
    I see in cons' speech codes a shadow of campus speech codes, which
    have in fact been used to suppress views that those in charge
    didn't like.
    It's unfortunate. Fandom has a long tradition of inclusiveness,
    in reaction to the 1939 Worldcon exclusion, which was soon widely
    recognized as a serious mistake. This tradition was so strong
    that the banning of a proven pedophile from the 1964 Worldcon
    was very controversial. But apparently that inclusiveness is
    a thing of the past now.

    We are not that inclusive. White and male for the most part especially in the written aspect. Filking has a better male female balance. But still, white.

    I'm "attending" Balticon. There didn't seem to be any censorship, self-censorship, or banning at the open filking. Some of the songs
    were openly critical of various people and organizations.

    Without a date attached thats no surprise. Some of this discussion has needed to happen for a very long time. It was remarks I heard about BLM that set me on this journey.

    In the con suite, I was helping several people find their way to the
    Don Sakers memorial event. One woman, who has had an unexplained
    grudge against me for years, publicly denounced me for "mansplaining."

    Mansplaining. So the Balticon was recent, in person. Men have a hard time understanding mansplaining. Usually because women have unexplained grudges against them. This happens when you very kindly explain to a woman something she already knows.
    Usually better than you do. Men who do this think they understand women, they even allow us to have jobs, and live alone. Have lives. Sorry, that was actually very rude. Usually men who do this just assume women don’t know anything. I’m an ex-
    mormon. Life long. Having a male atheist try and tell me about my religion, first 35 years ago when I still believed, and then about 5 years ago after I figured out I grew up in a cult was interesting. He wouldn’t listen to me. Talked right over me.
    I had to tell him to stop quite loudly. But no, he wasn’t mansplaining, from my perspective he was. And thats the perspective that counts.
    At the memorial event, which I was also attending, she privately
    falsely accused me of following her there, and ordered me to go away.

    Ok, paranoid women can be paranoid. I’ve never met you. I will say this, women are often killed by men. Not saying you are a stalker or anything like that. Just saying that’s a reality we live with.
    I pointed out to her that she could be banned for her behavior, as her criticism was related to my gender. I was tempted to report her, lest
    she report me first, but I refrained.

    No, her criticism was aimed at you as an individual. You might not have liked it, I don’t blame you, but we live in different worlds.
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

    Two parallels before I finish. I was in a facebook conversation and blind dates was the conversation. A man said, so whats the worst that can happen. A wasted two hours? Another lady in the group said I could get raped.

    When we get pulled over by a policeman do we think, hands on the dash, stay calm, I hope I don’t die? No we don’t. For black men and indigenous men in the States and Canada that is a very real potential end. And they are always black, always. They
    can’t stop, can’t rest. It’s always there.

    This is why bleeding heart liberals are trying to change things. Because words have power. My Fathers family was the most racist ugly nasty people you could ever hope to meet. I didn’t know that some words they used were slurs. N/&&@r is one. My
    Dad turned himself around. And lost nearly all his racism. He only hated Americans and the Irish You lot he called traitors.

    No one is trying to stop you from singing, they are trying to change the way people think. And we live in so many different worlds, we can not imagine what it’s like to always have to be on guard because people think you are less than human, simply
    because of the colour of your skin.

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  • From Keith F. Lynch@21:1/5 to heather borean on Wed Jun 2 02:18:25 2021
    heather borean <heather.borean@gmail.com> wrote:
    Keith F. Lynch wrote:
    It's unfortunate. Fandom has a long tradition of inclusiveness,
    in reaction to the 1939 Worldcon exclusion, which was soon widely
    recognized as a serious mistake. This tradition was so strong that
    the banning of a proven pedophile from the 1964 Worldcon was very
    controversial. But apparently that inclusiveness is a thing of the
    past now.

    We are not that inclusive. White and male for the most part
    especially in the written aspect. Filking has a better male female
    balance. But still, white.

    Fair criticism on race, especially if you're speaking of the 1930s
    through the 1960s. When I was WSFA's secretary and archivist, I read
    all the club's past meeting minutes, and saw that they refused club
    membership to a "colored man" in 1953, because they thought their
    meeting venue -- a transportation-related lobbying organization in
    DC -- might object.

    But archives and old photos confirm that women have always been about
    half the membership of both cons and clubs, if not always half the
    leadership. The first female Worldcon chair was in 1952.

    I'm "attending" Balticon. There didn't seem to be any censorship,
    self-censorship, or banning at the open filking. Some of the songs
    were openly critical of various people and organizations.

    Without a date attached thats no surprise. Some of this discussion
    has needed to happen for a very long time. It was remarks I heard
    about BLM that set me on this journey.

    Sorry, I thought it was clear from context and the quotes around
    "attending" that I was speaking of the latest virtual Balticon,
    which ended yesterday.

    In the con suite, I was helping several people find their way
    to the Don Sakers memorial event. One woman, who has had an
    unexplained grudge against me for years, publicly denounced me
    for "mansplaining."

    Mansplaining. So the Balticon was recent, in person.

    Recent, yes; in person, no. The con suite and the memorial event were
    both Zoom rooms.

    Men have a hard time understanding mansplaining. Usually because
    women have unexplained grudges against them. This happens when you
    very kindly explain to a woman something she already knows. Usually
    better than you do.

    Several people in the con suite, mostly male, were having difficulty
    getting to the memorial event. At least two thanked me for helping.

    I\342\200\231m an ex-mormon. Life long. Having a male atheist
    try and tell me about my religion, first 35 years ago when I still
    believed, and then about 5 years ago after I figured out I grew up
    in a cult was interesting.

    I'll confess to once telling two (teenaged male) Mormon missionaries
    about their religion, which I *did* understand better than they did.

    Ok, paranoid women can be paranoid. I\342\200\231ve never met you.
    I will say this, women are often killed by men. Not saying you are
    a stalker or anything like that. Just saying that\342\200\231s a
    reality we live with.

    I'm glad to hear you aren't actually accusing me of stalking or
    killing women. I'm 64, and have never been charged with any violent
    crime or sex crime. (I was falsely charged with a non-violent
    property crime 44 years ago, closer to the time of John Dillinger and
    Baby Face Nelson than the present. My record is otherwise perfectly
    clean before and since.) Many people in this newsgroup can vouch
    for me. I've been active in fandom for over 40 years.

    Even if I had been stalking her, I don't know what harm I could have
    done to her in a virtual room. We don't even live in the same state.

    I'll admit that I do know where she lives. That's because, at her
    request, I helped her move. And because I later helped another person
    move in with her. On second thought, I'm pretty sure she's moved
    again since then, so I guess I don't know where she lives.

    Since I don't drive, stalking would be rather difficult for me.

    I pointed out to her that she could be banned for her behavior, as
    her criticism was related to my gender. I was tempted to report
    her, lest she report me first, but I refrained.

    No, her criticism was aimed at you as an individual.

    She would not have accused a woman of mansplaining, even if that
    woman's behavior had been identical to mine. Similarly, if she were
    to insult a woman using terms only used to insult women, that would be gender-based, and if she were to insult a person of color using terms
    only used to insult people of color, that would be race-based.

    Two parallels before I finish. I was in a facebook conversation and
    blind dates was the conversation. A man said, so whats the worst
    that can happen. A wasted two hours? Another lady in the group
    said I could get raped.

    Unlikely if the date was in a movie theater, restaurant, or other
    crowded venue rather than at either person's home. Especially if the
    date had been arranged through a trusted intermediary who knows both
    people well. And especially if a web search of the man didn't show
    any accusations. Do many people have a first date at home, or at any
    other place with no other people around?

    When we get pulled over by a policeman do we think, hands
    on the dash, stay calm, I hope I don’t die? No we
    don’t. For black men and indigenous men in the States
    and Canada that is a very real potential end. And they are always
    black, always.

    It's true that blacks are disproportionately murdered by cops in the
    US. But the majority of people murdered by cops in the US are white.

    The group with the highest risk of being murdered by cops isn't
    blacks, and isn't guilty people, it's deaf people. "He wouldn't
    listen to my orders, so out of an abundance of caution I shot him in
    the back five times." Also, people having medical emergencies such
    as stroke, epilepsy, or low blood sugar are often tortured or killed
    by cops.

    In 2017, the Minneapolis police murdered Justine Damond. Nobody paid
    much attention, as she was white. If they had paid attention, George
    Floyd would probably still be alive today.

    No one is trying to stop you from singing, ....

    It turned out that woman *did* report me for harassment. Balticon
    tells me it will "investigate." I haven't heard back from them yet.

    I've also learned that a month ago they fired their own upcoming-con
    chair for alleged harassment. I don't know if he was guilty. But
    Balticon definitely felt toxic. There was plenty of self-censorship.
    For instance discussion yesterday of what had happened at the last
    Disclave nearly a quarter century ago, as it's impossible to fully
    discuss that without implicitly criticizing the man who flooded the
    hotel, and criticism of any person for any reason is strictly verboten
    if the Code of Conduct is taken literally. As is criticism of any organization.

    (If you're curious about the last Disclave, there are several filk
    songs about it.)
    --
    Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
    Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

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  • From david union@21:1/5 to Gary McGath on Wed Jun 16 06:41:40 2021
    On Saturday, 29 May 2021 at 8:26:02 am UTC-4, Gary McGath wrote:
    Balticon uses the BSFS code of conduct
    (https://www.bsfs.org/policy.htm). It prohibits "slurs and derogatory comments about a person, group, or category of people."

    That means I wouldn't be allowed to sing the following songs which I've written (with the targets of the derogatory lyrics indicated in
    parentheses):

    - The Man Who Ought to Be Spurned (Woodrow Wilson)
    - Der Zuckerberg (Facebook)
    - March of Damned Breath (people who endanger others in a pandemic)
    - I Will Block You (Internet trolls and spammers)
    - Rocket Men (Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un)
    - Do You Hear the Filkers Sing (the Finnish Worldcon)
    - Drink the Flint River (officials who covered up water pollution)

    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

    My guess will be that that prohibition will go about as well as when my company hired a comic
    for our christmas party and told him, in front of the whole audience, to make sure not to use bad language, sexual references,
    off color jokes, or racial or offensive language.

    He started his routine.. his following of that set of rules lasted maybe 2.5 minutes.

    The company has never hired a comic again for a christmas party..

    i think at a filk the fans will do what the fans always do. Sing whatever they want but keep the
    more potentially adult stuff until after 11:30 or midnight.

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Lee Gold XP on Tue Jun 22 19:22:23 2021
    On 6/22/21 9:28 AM, Lee Gold XP wrote:

    In my recent novel (VALHALLA: Absent without Leave, available on
    Barnes & Noble and Amazon) I cautioned readers that it was
    based on Norse myths (though somewhat heretical), but NOT
    on the Marvel version.

    (My novel is narrated by Ratatosk.)

    The ultimate unreliable narrator. :)


    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Gary McGath@21:1/5 to Keith F. Lynch on Sat Jun 26 19:16:41 2021
    On 6/26/21 4:56 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:

    I'm fed up with those who see Nazis and fascists everywhere. And it's
    not just idiots. Charlie Stross, who is one of my favorite authors,
    mentions the "libertarian/neo-nazi nexus" in his latest blog post.
    He's become almost a self-parody of a woker-than-thou person.

    Replying on RASFF only, as the thread has wandered far from filk.


    --
    Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 29 11:53:29 2021
    I would just like to point out that "Prohibited Songs at Balticon" scans
    to the tune of "When Johnny Comes Marching Home."
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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