• Seal of Robert fitz Pernel of Leicester d.1204

    From Peter Howarth@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 18 00:23:33 2018
    Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]

    But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is
    there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules,
    a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in
    vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?

    Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

    Peter Howarth

    [1] seals: 1195, W de G Birch, ‘Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum’ no 5674; n.d., R Ellis, ‘Catalogue of Seals in the Public Record Office’ nos P295, P296; the equestrian seals themselves have no coats of arms, but the counterseals, privy
    seals with the legend ROBERTI DE BRETVEL or BRETVIL, have checky shields. His great-grandmother was Isabel of Vermandois, daughter of the last of the Carolingians.

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  • From Tim Powys-Lybbe@21:1/5 to Peter Howarth on Sun Aug 26 14:48:53 2018
    On 18/08/2018 8:23 am, Peter Howarth wrote:
    Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]

    But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is
    there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules,
    a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in
    vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?

    Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

    No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
    sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
    these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
    volumes for these entries.

    Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
    they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.

    --
    Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
    for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

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  • From Peter Howarth@21:1/5 to Tim Powys-Lybbe on Mon Aug 27 12:26:01 2018
    On Sunday, 26 August 2018 14:48:56 UTC+1, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
    On 18/08/2018 8:23 am, Peter Howarth wrote:
    Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]

    But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is
    there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules,
    a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in
    vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?

    Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

    No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
    these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
    volumes for these entries.

    Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
    they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.

    --
    Tim Powys-Lybbe t..@powys.org
    for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

    Many thanks Tim, for following up on my question. I was hoping I could pick your brains. The problem I have with the entries on DBA iv. p 67 (gules, a cinquefoil ermine, either pierced or unpierced) is their dates. All those for Beaumont or Leicester
    are from a century and a half, or even more, after the death of Robert fitz Pernel, by which time heralds often attributed arms to those who never bore any (e.g. Robert le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester, d.1168).

    I am however very interested in your references to College of Arms Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. These are not references I know about. Are you able to provide any more details please?

    Thanks very much

    Peter Howarth

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  • From Tim Powys-Lybbe@21:1/5 to Peter Howarth on Tue Aug 28 22:46:35 2018
    On 27/08/2018 8:26 pm, Peter Howarth wrote:
    On Sunday, 26 August 2018 14:48:56 UTC+1, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
    On 18/08/2018 8:23 am, Peter Howarth wrote:
    Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]

    But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is
    there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules,
    a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’ in
    vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?

    Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

    No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
    sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
    these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
    volumes for these entries.

    Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
    they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. >>

    Many thanks Tim, for following up on my question. I was hoping I could pick your brains. The problem I have with the entries on DBA iv. p 67 (gules, a cinquefoil ermine, either pierced or unpierced) is their dates. All those for Beaumont or
    Leicester are from a century and a half, or even more, after the death of Robert fitz Pernel, by which time heralds often attributed arms to those who never bore any (e.g. Robert le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester, d.1168).

    These attributed arms are now part of the College's canon. The practice
    is followed to this day when you ask them to grant some arms for all the descendants of your grandfather, to include your cousins in. So your non-armigerous-in-his-lifetime grandfather then has arms after his
    death. Rules is rules.


    I am however very interested in your references to College of Arms Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. These are not references I know about. Are you able to provide any more details please?

    Only that the College gave these references to their records when they
    did some work for my late father some 20 or so years ago. They will
    tell you more if you ask them and are prepared to pay their fees for
    doing some work for you.

    --
    Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
    for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

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  • From Peter Howarth@21:1/5 to Tim Powys-Lybbe on Wed Aug 29 01:06:16 2018
    On Tuesday, 28 August 2018 22:46:37 UTC+1, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
    On 27/08/2018 8:26 pm, Peter Howarth wrote:
    On Sunday, 26 August 2018 14:48:56 UTC+1, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
    On 18/08/2018 8:23 am, Peter Howarth wrote:
    Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]

    But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence
    is there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby
    gules, a cinquefoil ermine.)” But he doesn’t give any further details of the seal, its date, or how we know it belonged to Robert fitz Pernel. And it doesn’t appear in the Dictionary of British Arms, at least not under ‘1 cinquefoil patterned’
    in vol iv p 66, perhaps because it doesn’t appear on a shield. So where did Fox-Davies get his information from?

    Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?

    No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
    sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
    these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
    volumes for these entries.

    Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
    they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.


    Many thanks Tim, for following up on my question. I was hoping I could pick your brains. The problem I have with the entries on DBA iv. p 67 (gules, a cinquefoil ermine, either pierced or unpierced) is their dates. All those for Beaumont or
    Leicester are from a century and a half, or even more, after the death of Robert fitz Pernel, by which time heralds often attributed arms to those who never bore any (e.g. Robert le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester, d.1168).

    These attributed arms are now part of the College's canon. The practice
    is followed to this day when you ask them to grant some arms for all the descendants of your grandfather, to include your cousins in. So your non-armigerous-in-his-lifetime grandfather then has arms after his
    death. Rules is rules.


    I am however very interested in your references to College of Arms Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. These are not references I know about. Are you able to provide any more details please?

    Only that the College gave these references to their records when they
    did some work for my late father some 20 or so years ago. They will
    tell you more if you ask them and are prepared to pay their fees for
    doing some work for you.

    --
    Tim Powys-Lybbe t..@powys.org
    for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

    I see two different sets of rules. Attributed arms are very useful for displaying descent from ancestors who may have lived before heraldry was widely adopted. The rules governing their use are essentially genealogical, determining whether you are
    entitled to display such descent. Your website is an excellent example of how it should be done. The other set of rules are essentially historical, governing what arms, if any, that person actually bore during their lifetime and how that fits into the
    history of heraldry. Both sets of rules are equally valid, but they serve different purposes.

    Regarding the College of Arms references, Wagner, in 'The Records and Collections of the College of Arms' (1952) p 23, mentions a series of volumes called Norfolk, instituted in 1766 and with the then current volume at number 39, containing registers of
    pedigrees. Judging by the pedigrees in the earlier visitations, these records, whilst useful genealogically, are unlikely to have much evidence for the heraldry. I suspect that any money spent on searching them would be wasted for me.

    Many thanks for the information, but it looks as if I will have to continue looking for the source of Fox-Davies’ illustration.

    Peter Howarth

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  • From Peter Howarth@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 11 05:55:48 2019
    I have at last found the source of Fox-Davies’ illustration of Robert fitz Pernel’s seal with an ermine cinquefoil. It comes from John Gough Nichols, ‘The history and antiquities of the county of Leicester’ Vol. 1, part 1, (1795). On p 97 he
    quotes an undated charter in the city archives, by “Robertus comes Leicestrie, filius Petronille comitisse Leic’ ” to the burgesses of Leicester, where “The seal shews a knight mounted, his horse at full speed, a broad sword in his right hand,
    his surcoat dangling on one side ; and on the other the arms of Leicester.” The seal is illustrated in plate XI (page 99), fig 3. Neither side has a legend, but the reverse shows the ermine cinquefoil which, later on, became the arms of the city of
    Leicester.

    Peter Howarth

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  • From Peter Howarth@21:1/5 to Peter Howarth on Fri Apr 12 21:28:35 2019
    On Thursday, 11 April 2019 13:55:49 UTC+1, Peter Howarth wrote:
    I have at last found the source of Fox-Davies’ illustration of Robert fitz Pernel’s seal with an ermine cinquefoil. It comes from John Gough Nichols, ‘The history and antiquities of the county of Leicester’ Vol. 1, part 1, (1795). On p 97 he
    quotes an undated charter in the city archives, by “Robertus comes Leicestrie, filius Petronille comitisse Leic’ ” to the burgesses of Leicester, where “The seal shews a knight mounted, his horse at full speed, a broad sword in his right hand,
    his surcoat dangling on one side ; and on the other the arms of Leicester.” The seal is illustrated in plate XI (page 99), fig 3. Neither side has a legend, but the reverse shows the ermine cinquefoil which, later on, became the arms of the city of
    Leicester.

    Peter Howarth

    In my euphoria over finding the original illustration of this seal, I failed to look carefully enough at the illustration, at least to begin with. Firstly plate XI is on page 23 (not 99). Secondly, the engraving of the knight on horseback is crude,
    with a very short surcoat, and it lacks a saddle-cloth. The cinquefoil itself is lop-sided. Fig. 4 shows a different seal where the counterseal has a checky shield surrounded by the legend SECRETVM ROBERTI DE BRETVEL (cf. Birch 5674 for Robert Fitz-
    Parnell de Bellomonte). The main seal, of which only the bottom third remains, shows a long surcoat, a long pleated saddle-cloth, and a broad chest band for the horse which is lacking in Fig. 3. There are also the remains of a legend .....I COMITIS ....
    .., and on the field under the horse’s head is a fleur de lis (again cf. Birch 5674). The general style of engraving is much more detailed and delicate. The seal with the ermine cinquefoil just doesn't fit.

    Even if the charter itself was genuine, the original seal could have become lost and a clumsy substitute put in its place. Cinquefoils (?pimpernels) appear on the seals, and even the arms, of four other members of the family, children or grandchildren
    of Pernel. So it remains possible that Robert fitz Pernel used a cinquefoil too. But this seal cannot be treated as good evidence for it.

    Peter Howarth

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