Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules,
But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is
Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?
On 18/08/2018 8:23 am, Peter Howarth wrote:there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules,
Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]
But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is
Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?
No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
volumes for these entries.
Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t..@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
On Sunday, 26 August 2018 14:48:56 UTC+1, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby gules,
On 18/08/2018 8:23 am, Peter Howarth wrote:
Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]
But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence is
Leicester are from a century and a half, or even more, after the death of Robert fitz Pernel, by which time heralds often attributed arms to those who never bore any (e.g. Robert le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester, d.1168).
Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?
No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
volumes for these entries.
Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. >>
Many thanks Tim, for following up on my question. I was hoping I could pick your brains. The problem I have with the entries on DBA iv. p 67 (gules, a cinquefoil ermine, either pierced or unpierced) is their dates. All those for Beaumont or
I am however very interested in your references to College of Arms Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. These are not references I know about. Are you able to provide any more details please?
On 27/08/2018 8:26 pm, Peter Howarth wrote:is there for this seal? A C Fox-Davies, ‘The Art of Heraldry’ p 196 (and ‘A Complete Guide to Heraldry’ p 268) has an illustration of the device itself, “Fig. 490.--From the seal of Robert Fitz-Pernell, Earl of Leicester, d.1206. (Probaby
On Sunday, 26 August 2018 14:48:56 UTC+1, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
On 18/08/2018 8:23 am, Peter Howarth wrote:
Robert fitz Pernel, 4th Earl of Leicester (d.1204), used a counterseal with a shield ‘checky’ (we can guess that the tinctures were gold and blue, those of Vermandois).[1]
But he is probably better known for using a different seal with a device, not on a shield, of an ermine cinquefoil. This was copied into the arms of the city of Leicester, and used by his nephew, Robert de Quincy of Steventon. But what evidence
Leicester are from a century and a half, or even more, after the death of Robert fitz Pernel, by which time heralds often attributed arms to those who never bore any (e.g. Robert le Bossu, 2nd Earl of Leicester, d.1168).
Does anybody have any further information about this seal please?
No info on the seal but the Dict of Brit Arms on the next page, 67, has
sundry Bellomont, Leicester amd Leycestre who all had variations of
these arms. Further it gives a variety of references to the source
volumes for these entries.
Fox-Davies would probably have got his info from the Coll of Arms as
they have the Bellomont arms referenced as Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b.
Many thanks Tim, for following up on my question. I was hoping I could pick your brains. The problem I have with the entries on DBA iv. p 67 (gules, a cinquefoil ermine, either pierced or unpierced) is their dates. All those for Beaumont or
These attributed arms are now part of the College's canon. The practice
is followed to this day when you ask them to grant some arms for all the descendants of your grandfather, to include your cousins in. So your non-armigerous-in-his-lifetime grandfather then has arms after his
death. Rules is rules.
I am however very interested in your references to College of Arms Norfolk 14/28 and Norfolk 16/19b. These are not references I know about. Are you able to provide any more details please?
Only that the College gave these references to their records when they
did some work for my late father some 20 or so years ago. They will
tell you more if you ask them and are prepared to pay their fees for
doing some work for you.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t..@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
I have at last found the source of Fox-Davies’ illustration of Robert fitz Pernel’s seal with an ermine cinquefoil. It comes from John Gough Nichols, ‘The history and antiquities of the county of Leicester’ Vol. 1, part 1, (1795). On p 97 hequotes an undated charter in the city archives, by “Robertus comes Leicestrie, filius Petronille comitisse Leic’ ” to the burgesses of Leicester, where “The seal shews a knight mounted, his horse at full speed, a broad sword in his right hand,
Peter Howarth
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