• De Peyre Family

    From casey.kevin@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 4 15:04:48 2018
    The armes de Peyre (of southern France) are usually shown as a black eagle against an argent field. The daughters of Astorg de Peyre (c. 1077), however, have gold crosses with violets, according to roglo. This can be seen here, as well: https://commons.
    m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_famille_fr_de-Peyre.svg

    Can anyone provide a source for this second shield, and speak to its accuracy?

    Thank you,
    Kevin

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  • From Peter Howarth@21:1/5 to casey...@gmail.com on Sat May 5 05:12:21 2018
    On Friday, 4 May 2018 23:04:49 UTC+1, casey...@gmail.com wrote:
    The armes de Peyre (of southern France) are usually shown as a black eagle against an argent field. The daughters of Astorg de Peyre (c. 1077), however, have gold crosses with violets, according to roglo. This can be seen here, as well: https://
    commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_famille_fr_de-Peyre.svg

    Can anyone provide a source for this second shield, and speak to its accuracy?

    Thank you,
    Kevin

    The daughters of anyone alive in the eleventh century cannot have borne any sort of arms. The earliest possible arms date from around 1150 and are limited to comital families until near the end of the twelfth century. Just because arms were attributed
    much later on to Charlemagne, Prester John, and so on, we should not be misled into thinking that people actually bore any arms that long ago.

    What evidence, and dates, do we have for the two coats of arms? Or are they taken from secondary material that doesn't give its sources?

    Peter Howarth

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  • From casey.kevin@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Peter Howarth on Sat May 5 13:54:52 2018
    On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 8:12:22 AM UTC-4, Peter Howarth wrote:
    On Friday, 4 May 2018 23:04:49 UTC+1, casey...@gmail.com wrote:
    The armes de Peyre (of southern France) are usually shown as a black eagle against an argent field. The daughters of Astorg de Peyre (c. 1077), however, have gold crosses with violets, according to roglo. This can be seen here, as well: https://
    commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_famille_fr_de-Peyre.svg

    Can anyone provide a source for this second shield, and speak to its accuracy?

    Thank you,
    Kevin

    The daughters of anyone alive in the eleventh century cannot have borne any sort of arms. The earliest possible arms date from around 1150 and are limited to comital families until near the end of the twelfth century. Just because arms were
    attributed much later on to Charlemagne, Prester John, and so on, we should not be misled into thinking that people actually bore any arms that long ago.

    What evidence, and dates, do we have for the two coats of arms? Or are they taken from secondary material that doesn't give its sources?

    Peter Howarth

    Thank you for your note, Peter. Your questions are essentially the ones I posed, above: I found the two, unsourced referenced I mentioned, and was wondering if anyone could speak to their veracity.

    Since writing my original post, I've found this same description in "Armorial général: précédé d'un dictionnaire des termes du blason" by Johannes Baptista Rietstap and also "Armorial du Vivarais" by Florentin Benoît d'Entrevaux.

    Interestingly, Rietstap seems to make a regional distinction between the eagle and crosses/violets versions. But, again, I have no idea how accurate these sources are, either, as I am largely unfamiliar with the study of heraldry.

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  • From Peter Howarth@21:1/5 to casey...@gmail.com on Sun May 6 01:11:32 2018
    On Saturday, 5 May 2018 21:54:54 UTC+1, casey...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 8:12:22 AM UTC-4, Peter Howarth wrote:
    On Friday, 4 May 2018 23:04:49 UTC+1, casey...@gmail.com wrote:
    The armes de Peyre (of southern France) are usually shown as a black eagle against an argent field. The daughters of Astorg de Peyre (c. 1077), however, have gold crosses with violets, according to roglo. This can be seen here, as well: https://
    commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_famille_fr_de-Peyre.svg

    Can anyone provide a source for this second shield, and speak to its accuracy?

    Thank you,
    Kevin

    The daughters of anyone alive in the eleventh century cannot have borne any sort of arms. The earliest possible arms date from around 1150 and are limited to comital families until near the end of the twelfth century. Just because arms were
    attributed much later on to Charlemagne, Prester John, and so on, we should not be misled into thinking that people actually bore any arms that long ago.

    What evidence, and dates, do we have for the two coats of arms? Or are they taken from secondary material that doesn't give its sources?

    Peter Howarth

    Thank you for your note, Peter. Your questions are essentially the ones I posed, above: I found the two, unsourced referenced I mentioned, and was wondering if anyone could speak to their veracity.

    Since writing my original post, I've found this same description in "Armorial général: précédé d'un dictionnaire des termes du blason" by Johannes Baptista Rietstap and also "Armorial du Vivarais" by Florentin Benoît d'Entrevaux.

    Interestingly, Rietstap seems to make a regional distinction between the eagle and crosses/violets versions. But, again, I have no idea how accurate these sources are, either, as I am largely unfamiliar with the study of heraldry.

    Rietstap is very important historically since he produced an international armorial which popularised the study of heraldry throughout Europe and particularly in the Netherlands, and I see no reason to doubt what he says. The problem is that, because he
    covered the arms of 130,000 families throughout Europe, he doesn't tell us very much about each coat of arms. He gives an indication of the region where he found the family, but otherwise we don't know exactly which family, or branch, the arms belong to.
    Nor do we know for certain when the arms were used. Very occasionally Rietstap gives a date, perhaps from the seventeenth or eighteenth century. Otherwise, he seems to be referring to contemporary families, so from around the middle of the nineteenth
    century. We may not assume from that, that the arms go back very far, and certainly not to the middle ages. Really, all we can say is that some family with this name, at some time in the (fairly recent) past, bore these arms; but whether they were used
    by this particular person, or even this particular family, we have no way of knowing -- at least not from Rietstap.

    The best source for mediaeval continental arms is Steen Clemmensen, 'Ordinary of Medieval Armorials', a Microsoft Access database, version 2.1, Copenhagen, 2017 (available at http://www.armorial.dk/). This covers France, the Empire, Scandinavia, and
    England, and gives a mediaeval source for every single entry. There is unfortunately no entry for any family called Peyre.

    Clemmensen is based on mediaeval rolls of arms, which provide the colours used but were never official records and so can contain errors. However, the other source for mediaeval heraldry are the seals that were used at the time. These are excellent
    evidence, but of course do not provide any tinctures. Because seals usually have the owner's name round the edge, and because they are usually still attached to documents, it can be easier to establish exactly which individual was involved. France has
    a strong tradition of sigillography, but the many publications tend to be regional rather than national. Clemmensen gives a useful list of the books available.

    I'm afraid my special interests are limited to England, so I can't offer any direct help with the French family you are interested in.

    Peter Howarth

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  • From casey.kevin@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Peter Howarth on Mon May 7 04:08:34 2018
    On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 4:11:33 AM UTC-4, Peter Howarth wrote:
    On Saturday, 5 May 2018 21:54:54 UTC+1, casey...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 8:12:22 AM UTC-4, Peter Howarth wrote:
    On Friday, 4 May 2018 23:04:49 UTC+1, casey...@gmail.com wrote:
    The armes de Peyre (of southern France) are usually shown as a black eagle against an argent field. The daughters of Astorg de Peyre (c. 1077), however, have gold crosses with violets, according to roglo. This can be seen here, as well: https://
    commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_famille_fr_de-Peyre.svg

    Can anyone provide a source for this second shield, and speak to its accuracy?

    Thank you,
    Kevin

    The daughters of anyone alive in the eleventh century cannot have borne any sort of arms. The earliest possible arms date from around 1150 and are limited to comital families until near the end of the twelfth century. Just because arms were
    attributed much later on to Charlemagne, Prester John, and so on, we should not be misled into thinking that people actually bore any arms that long ago.

    What evidence, and dates, do we have for the two coats of arms? Or are they taken from secondary material that doesn't give its sources?

    Peter Howarth

    Thank you for your note, Peter. Your questions are essentially the ones I posed, above: I found the two, unsourced referenced I mentioned, and was wondering if anyone could speak to their veracity.

    Since writing my original post, I've found this same description in "Armorial général: précédé d'un dictionnaire des termes du blason" by Johannes Baptista Rietstap and also "Armorial du Vivarais" by Florentin Benoît d'Entrevaux.

    Interestingly, Rietstap seems to make a regional distinction between the eagle and crosses/violets versions. But, again, I have no idea how accurate these sources are, either, as I am largely unfamiliar with the study of heraldry.

    Rietstap is very important historically since he produced an international armorial which popularised the study of heraldry throughout Europe and particularly in the Netherlands, and I see no reason to doubt what he says. The problem is that, because
    he covered the arms of 130,000 families throughout Europe, he doesn't tell us very much about each coat of arms. He gives an indication of the region where he found the family, but otherwise we don't know exactly which family, or branch, the arms belong
    to. Nor do we know for certain when the arms were used. Very occasionally Rietstap gives a date, perhaps from the seventeenth or eighteenth century. Otherwise, he seems to be referring to contemporary families, so from around the middle of the
    nineteenth century. We may not assume from that, that the arms go back very far, and certainly not to the middle ages. Really, all we can say is that some family with this name, at some time in the (fairly recent) past, bore these arms; but whether
    they were used by this particular person, or even this particular family, we have no way of knowing -- at least not from Rietstap.

    The best source for mediaeval continental arms is Steen Clemmensen, 'Ordinary of Medieval Armorials', a Microsoft Access database, version 2.1, Copenhagen, 2017 (available at http://www.armorial.dk/). This covers France, the Empire, Scandinavia, and
    England, and gives a mediaeval source for every single entry. There is unfortunately no entry for any family called Peyre.

    Clemmensen is based on mediaeval rolls of arms, which provide the colours used but were never official records and so can contain errors. However, the other source for mediaeval heraldry are the seals that were used at the time. These are excellent
    evidence, but of course do not provide any tinctures. Because seals usually have the owner's name round the edge, and because they are usually still attached to documents, it can be easier to establish exactly which individual was involved. France has
    a strong tradition of sigillography, but the many publications tend to be regional rather than national. Clemmensen gives a useful list of the books available.

    I'm afraid my special interests are limited to England, so I can't offer any direct help with the French family you are interested in.

    Peter Howarth

    Thanks again, Peter. I appreciate the information, and you've provided a lot of great, detailed data for me to follow up on.

    Kevin

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