My dad has a framed embroidered coat of arms that has been in our family for a while, but I have no idea what year it was created. My family was given our coat of arms in the late 12th century, but I highly doubt that is when this item was actually
created. Is there anyway to date the materials used? Thank you to anyone who may be able to point me in the right direction.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 6:56:21 PM UTC-4, Acapo wrote:

My dad has a framed embroidered coat of arms that has been in our family for a while, but I have no idea what year it was created. My family was given our coat of arms in the late 12th century, but I highly doubt that is when this item was actually

created. Is there anyway to date the materials used? Thank you to anyone who may be able to point me in the right direction.

Unless you can prove uninterrupted decent from this ancient relative you would not want to publicly use them. Rather, design new arms, possibly including a charge or the crest from the older arms as an homage and linking the two. Also, if you are an
American, while we are not governed by English or any heraldic authority most Americans chose to follow one authority, be it German or other. That generally means no supporters for Yanks as supporters are a sign of the nobility.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 23:56:21 UTC+1, Acapo wrote:

My dad has a framed embroidered coat of arms that has been in our family for a while, but I have no idea what year it was created. My family was given our coat of arms in the late 12th century, but I highly doubt that is when this item was actually

created. Is there anyway to date the materials used? Thank you to anyone who may be able to point me in the right direction.

Embroidery has been made continuously at least since mediaeval times, much of it using old traditional materials, such as linen, wool, and gold. Cotton was first imported into England in the 16th century, and man-made fibres were introduced in the 20th
century. You may be able to get some idea of the date from the dyes used. Bright colours suggest 19th century or later. The problem is that most ways of analysing the materials used involve methods not available to amateurs. Try a museum specialising
in fabrics, like the V&A in South Kensington, London.

To be strictly accurate, no family was 'given' their coat of arms in the late 12th century. At that time, earls were the only ones with coats of arms, which they chose and adopted for themselves. Grants of arms were not generally made until the 15th
century. The only evidence for coats of arms in the 12th century are seals, which of course lack tinctures. The earliest English rolls of arms were collated in the second half of the 13th century. Do your arms appear in any of those?

Peter Howarth

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Thank you so much for your reply, I really appreciate the information provided. I think my next step is definitely reaching out to professionals to look more into this for me. The coat of arms is Italian, and our surname is considered to be not very
common these days so it’s made searching on my own rather difficult.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, 30 June 2020 01:59:34 UTC+1, Acapo wrote:

Thank you so much for your reply, I really appreciate the information provided. I think my next step is definitely reaching out to professionals to look more into this for me. The coat of arms is Italian, and our surname is considered to be not very

common these days so it’s made searching on my own rather difficult.

Even in Italy, the twelfth century saw little if anything in the way of heraldry. The north of the country was part of the Holy Roman Empire, where coats of arms were limited to a few of the independent dukes and counts. The south, including Sicily,
was in the hands of the Norman adventurers, descendants of Tancred de Hauteville, who did not use coats of arms until much later. The centre was ruled by the Pope who had nothing to do with coats of arms, which were associated with war and particularly
with tournaments. The Church tried very hard, with little success, to prohibit tournaments and to excommunicate those who took part until well into the thirteenth century.

The German noble, Welf VI, a younger son of Henry the Black, Duke of Saxony and Bavaria, and uncle of Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, was created margrave of Tuscany and duke of Spoleto 1152–1162. He had an equestrian seal with a lion on the shield, but
this was probably just decoration rather than true heraldry. Otherwise, there is little other evidence for twelfth-century Italy.

The best introduction to early Italian heraldry, even if it is now a little dated, is probably John Goodall, 'Heraldry in Italy during the Middle Ages and Renaissance', Coat of Arms no 37, January 1959, available at https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/
articles/heraldry-in-italy-during-the-middle-ages-and-renaissance/

Peter Howarth

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)