https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants/news/item/168-probationary-officer-of-arms-job-advertisement
Will this be an appointment by the Corporation of the Officers of Arms, or by the monarch, or by the Earl Marshal...?
Satoru Uemura
https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants/news/item/168-probationary-officer-of-arms-job-advertisement
Will this be an appointment ... by the monarch, or by the Earl Marshal...?
Satoru Uemura
As for the appointment,or what is a 'probationary' officer, I agree with Peter.
'military experience' is, in my understanding, the experience for so called 'military heraldry.' Armies (navies, air forces) of the nations have demand for heraldry and/or adjacent fields, such as flag, badge, seals, etc.
That is why (again in my understanding), The US Army has the Institute of Heraldry (why I cannot access the website...?), and Portuguese Army and Navy have similar bodies.
For the latter two, see this Ph.D dissertation: https://estudogeral.sib.uc.pt/handle/10316/12166
(For the Army see p.334 of the thesis and for the Navy p.23 of the Anexos. The Air Force once had the same body: see p.24 of the Anexos.)
Satoru Uemura
I wondered about that, and I agree with you completely that military heraldry is a definite specialism. Indeed in England the three different services each have their own herald to advise them (see https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/services/naval-military-raf). The problem is that an ex-member of one or two ships, or one regiment, or one squadron, will not necessarily have any better overall knowledge of military badges than an outsider with a broader viewpoint. A study of the records of
On Tuesday, 17 September 2019 15:07:33 UTC+1, pizza...@gmail.com wrote:
As for the appointment,or what is a 'probationary' officer, I agree with Peter.
'military experience' is, in my understanding, the experience for so called 'military heraldry.' Armies (navies, air forces) of the nations have demand for heraldry and/or adjacent fields, such as flag, badge, seals, etc.
That is why (again in my understanding), The US Army has the Institute of Heraldry (why I cannot access the website...?), and Portuguese Army and Navy have similar bodies.
For the latter two, see this Ph.D dissertation:
https://estudogeral.sib.uc.pt/handle/10316/12166
(For the Army see p.334 of the thesis and for the Navy p.23 of the Anexos. The Air Force once had the same body: see p.24 of the Anexos.)
Satoru Uemura
I wondered about that, and I agree with you completely that military
heraldry is a definite specialism. Indeed in England the three different services each have their own herald to advise them (see https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/services/naval-military-raf). The problem is that an ex-member of one or two ships, or one regiment, or one squadron, will not necessarily have any better overall knowledge of military badges than an outsider with a broader viewpoint. A study of the records of existing badges, with a general knowledge of heraldry, is probably more helpful in designing new badges than one person's experience of military service. The present Garter, a barrister with as far as I can tell no service experience (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Woodcock_(officer_of_arms) ), is responsible for advising on all army badges.
In any case, military badges form a very small proportion of the work of the officers of arms. The biggest jobs facing them in the not too distant future will be two royal funerals and then a coronation; and they will, if they are sensible, already be preparing for them.
Is there a herald with military experience about to retire,
so they feel a need to make sure there is someone with military
experience on the roster?
This still leaves my question unanswered: what is it about military experience that is of value in carrying out the job of a herald? I can't see anything that hasn't been carried out equally well by those without the experience. Is it an attempt toavoid appointing a woman?
Or, are they planning to extend their business? In other words,
is there any demand which they are currently not able to satisfy
because of the lack of military experience?
'Military experience as a commissioned officer' is the one requirement that has no obvious connection with (a) the job description, or (b) the other requirements. It seems to have been inserted for some undisclosed, ulterior motive. Perhaps they feelthat the military will already have weeded out 'undesirables' such as those who are BAME, working class or female. Or if they still fall into one of those categories, that they will have been fully trained to behave 'properly', like those who went to
I write as one who has noticed the advantages silently provided because I went to public school and then got my first degree at Cambridge.
I read the requirements again, and the idea which suddenly came to me is, how do the heraldist-heralds feel likecondition; and also the College has always option, not to choose 'undesirables'.
when they perform their ceremonial duty (this may fall in the last item of the job description)?
Is it as much comfortable as when they are in the archives or libraries?
Is it not the case, commissioned officers are better fit for that 'Pomp and Circumstance'?
(And this is just one branch of their duties, that's why 'military experience'is not part of essential conditions.)
What you suppose is of course possible, but I am not quite sure how much does the 'military experience' clause work to discourage the 'undesirable' people to apply. If the aspirants are willing, they can apply >since the clause is not a mandatory
Although I have never been in the armed forces (I missed compulsory National Service by one year), I learned to process as a choirboy in church, which is very similar to the heralds' processions, much more than military marching. It was certainly notdifficult to learn.
14 Nov 2019 (Thu) 4:34:47 UTC+9 Peter Howarth:not difficult to learn.
Although I have never been in the armed forces (I missed compulsory National Service by one year), I learned to process as a choirboy in church, which is very similar to the heralds' processions, much more than military marching. It was certainly
Does their ceremonial role include procession only? How about coming (likely to come soon) coronation and
one more event which immediately precedes it?
(May be I am more cynical than you. :-))
Uemura Satoru
It appears that the heralds organise what everyone else is supposed to do, including the military, based on the detailed records, with timings, that they have kept from previous occasions. (See Rodney Dennys, chapter 21, Parliamentary Duties of theHeralds, and chapter 22, The Ceremonial Duties of the Heralds, in 'Heraldry and the Heralds', 1982.)
(sorry to snip.)
15 Nov 2019 (Fri) 3:50:54 UTC+9 Peter Howarth:Heralds, and chapter 22, The Ceremonial Duties of the Heralds, in 'Heraldry and the Heralds', 1982.)
It appears that the heralds organise what everyone else is supposed to do, including the military, based on the detailed records, with timings, that they have kept from previous occasions. (See Rodney Dennys, chapter 21, Parliamentary Duties of the
(sorry to snip.)
Thank you for the reference for Rodney Dennys (I do not remember what is mentioned in the book...).
However, why are you concerned with procession and military march only? (Because I said 'Pomp and Circumstance'...?)
I meant the appearance and style of military officers are more fit to the splendor or the atmosphere what these pictures give:
https://artetempire.wordpress.com/2016/08/01/herauts-d-armes-napoleon/ https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_Harris_Brown_-_Proclamation_of_the_Accession_to_the_Throne_of_His_Majesty_King_George_V_at_Dublin,_June_1911.jpg
(For the latter I am not mentioning the skill of horse-riding.)
And in my understanding that is why heralds were sometimes chosen among them in several countries (just for ceremonial roles,
again in my understanding what was/is expected to heralds did/do not differ between countries).
Actually ceremony was a blocker for a heraldist not to be a herald: Thomas Ulick Sadleir declined to accept the post of
Athlone Pursuivant because he was reluctant to perform the ceremonial duties. Athlone's salary was then 160 pound a year.
Instead, he chose to be appointed Deputy Ulster only whose function includes armorial duties only.
His predecessor, George Burtchaell held both offices concurrently.
These are mentioned in Susan Hood's _Royal Roots_, ch. 3 (I cannot give the exact page number now).
For me, I can easily imagine a hearldist who dislikes ceremonies but can hardly imagine a military officer who is reluctant
to join the same and also hardly imagine the former is the better performer than the latter.
Uemura Satoru
Perhaps they feel that the military will already have weeded out 'undesirables' such as those who are BAME, working class or female.Has there ever been a officer at the College of Arms who wasn't a white, nominally Christian, able-bodied man? For that matter, has there every
On Friday, 15 November 2019 17:35:07 UTC, pizza...@gmail.com wrote:Heralds, and chapter 22, The Ceremonial Duties of the Heralds, in 'Heraldry and the Heralds', 1982.)
15 Nov 2019 (Fri) 3:50:54 UTC+9 Peter Howarth:
It appears that the heralds organise what everyone else is supposed to do, including the military, based on the detailed records, with timings, that they have kept from previous occasions. (See Rodney Dennys, chapter 21, Parliamentary Duties of the
(sorry to snip.)
Thank you for the reference for Rodney Dennys (I do not remember what is mentioned in the book...).
However, why are you concerned with procession and military march only? (Because I said 'Pomp and Circumstance'...?)
I meant the appearance and style of military officers are more fit to the splendor or the atmosphere what these pictures give:
https://artetempire.wordpress.com/2016/08/01/herauts-d-armes-napoleon/ https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_Harris_Brown_-_Proclamation_of_the_Accession_to_the_Throne_of_His_Majesty_King_George_V_at_Dublin,_June_1911.jpg
(For the latter I am not mentioning the skill of horse-riding.)
And in my understanding that is why heralds were sometimes chosen among them in several countries (just for ceremonial roles,
again in my understanding what was/is expected to heralds did/do not differ between countries).
Actually ceremony was a blocker for a heraldist not to be a herald: Thomas Ulick Sadleir declined to accept the post of
Athlone Pursuivant because he was reluctant to perform the ceremonial duties. Athlone's salary was then 160 pound a year.
Instead, he chose to be appointed Deputy Ulster only whose function includes armorial duties only.
His predecessor, George Burtchaell held both offices concurrently.
These are mentioned in Susan Hood's _Royal Roots_, ch. 3 (I cannot give the exact page number now).
For me, I can easily imagine a hearldist who dislikes ceremonies but can hardly imagine a military officer who is reluctant
to join the same and also hardly imagine the former is the better performer than the latter.
Uemura Satoru
I may never have been in the forces, but my father, brother and nephew were. I do not believe that a typical officer in the modern armed forces knows any more about Pomp and Circumstance than a civilian herald or even a cathedral precentor.
(Always sorry to snip.)
'undesirables' such as those who are BAME, working class or female.Has there ever been a officer at the College of Arms who wasn't a white, nominally Christian, able-bodied man? For that matter, has there every
been one who didn't attend a public school?
From what you told, it sounds to me, in UK, there is no such law. Is it so? Or, do the Officers of Arms not know
such a law?
18 Nov 2019 (Mon) 1:32:54: UTC+9 pizza...@gmail.com:
From what you told, it sounds to me, in UK, there is no such law. Is it so? Or, do the Officers of Arms not know
such a law?
As far as I checked there have been many such laws and the law currently in effect seems
to be this:
Equality Act 2010
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15
The key term relevant for us now is "indirect discrimination" which is defined in:
Pt 2. Equality: key concepts -> Ch 2. Prohibited conduct -> 19 Indirect discrimination
To understand what is prohibited here, it may be easier to read web pages (so many pages
are there) explaining this, but in short, if an employer adds some condition which will
"weed out" certain group of people and if the employer "cannot show it to be a
proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim," then it will be a violation of law.
And as per the law the protected characteristics are "race" (here BAME for example),
"sex" (here female for example) and others.
Now, suppose I am an Officer of Arms and if one colored and aspirant woman without
"military experience" asks me, why that "military experience" condition exists, and
because of that she feels she is not eligible, theoretically, for me the possible answers
are:
a) "No, we do not want colored nor woman to be our colleague. That's why."
b) "We are sorry we cannot disclose the reason."
c) "No, there is no connection between 'military experience' and our job. There is also no
reason for us to add the condition. We yet added it."
d) "We are sorry but we do want someone who has 'military experience' because it has
great advantage for our job in xyz..."
e) "Don't worry, it's in 'Highly desirable,' not 'Essential.' If you think you satisfy
other 'Highly desirable' conditions then you are enough eligible."
In reality, for me, I can choose the last two ones only.
Among what I mentioned, new business will be more d), and ceremony will be e).
In the last case also where "Highly desirable" is optional, in my understanding, there must
be some connection between "military experience" and heralds' job: since it's optional,
it works for increasing the number of applicants only, i.e., those who has only one of
the options can apply. And if "military experience" has nothing to do with heralds' job,
there is no benefit for heralds to chose someone who has "military experience" only.
(However, I am not sure, for optional condition, how much justification is needed and,
how much the fitness for splendor can be a good reason. Make it more splendid is a good
idea, but...? May be we should think things are always like d).)
I slightly simplified my discussion, but I believe those I did not mention are minor points.
Uemura Satoru
While this is doubtless what the writers of British anti-discrimination law intended, enforcing it that way is probably impossible. Judges do not understand the role as well as the denizens of rec.heraldry, which means the College can make up almostanything they want and the Judge will have no way to know it's wrong.
Which means Mr. Howarth could well be right. This could be a way to exclude certain people from the job without admitting it.
Or it could be neither. Somebody at the College has decided to support the troops by hiring one.
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