When I was last here, there were some guys saying the 2H sword was useless
for barbarians and if starting with it chuck it to the curb. Is that the general
sentiment?

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On 10.05.2022 09:00, Praetor Mandrake wrote:

When I was last here, there were some guys saying the 2H sword was useless for barbarians and if starting with it chuck it to the curb. Is that the general
sentiment?

Not sure what "b)" is referring to, and assuming that "2H" means
two-handed, and wild guessing that '"the" sword' may refer to my
recent post in another thread about the Cleaver...

I consider Cleaver being a very useful artifact in the early game
and it's also fine in the mid-game.

For Barbarians it's the first guaranteed sacrifice gift, and I
suppose everybody uses it once obtained. Why would one throw it
away and stay with the initial ordinary non-artifact axe version?

Janis

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On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 3:40:48 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 10.05.2022 09:00, Praetor Mandrake wrote:

When I was last here, there were some guys saying the 2H sword was useless for barbarians and if starting with it chuck it to the curb. Is that the general
sentiment?

Not sure what "b)" is referring to, and assuming that "2H" means
two-handed, and wild guessing that '"the" sword' may refer to my
recent post in another thread about the Cleaver...

Half of barbarians have starting weapons
a. two-handed sword
b. axe

They said there are no artifact two-handed swords, meaning that the skill was wasteful as it does not power a future artifact to impove it.

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On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 6:03:40 AM UTC-5, Praetor Mandrake wrote:

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 3:40:48 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 10.05.2022 09:00, Praetor Mandrake wrote:

When I was last here, there were some guys saying the 2H sword was useless
for barbarians and if starting with it chuck it to the curb. Is that the general
sentiment?

Not sure what "b)" is referring to, and assuming that "2H" means two-handed, and wild guessing that '"the" sword' may refer to my
recent post in another thread about the Cleaver...

Half of barbarians have starting weapons
a. two-handed sword
b. axe

They said there are no artifact two-handed swords, meaning that the skill was wasteful as it does not power a future artifact to impove it.

The fact that no one will own up to having supported this indicates that it was folly.
The two-handed sword by itself is a formidable weapon, and there are more of them
to be found within the dungeon. Not using it presents a giant opportunity cost,
holding a heavy weapon and using the axe as wielded melee weapon instead. They might as well have said, don't use your left arm because it's weaker.

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The biggest knock against using any two-handed weapon is that
if it becomes cursed, both your hands will be stuck to it. There
are a lot of actions which can't be performed if you don't have at
least one free hand available, including applying a bag in order
to take something out (such as a potion of holy water or a scroll
of remove curse, either of which could be used to uncurse the
weapon if they were in open inventory instead of being trapped
inside a bag).

In 3.4.x and some variants derived from it, if that happened when
you were in Gehennom where prayer always fails and fire traps
make carrying potions and scrolls in open inventory infeasible,
you would be in a lot of trouble. 3.6.0 added the #tip command
that lets you spill out the contents of a carried or on-floor
container even when both hands are welded to a weapon. Not
exactly convenient, but a big advantage over older versions in
terms of survivability. So use of two-handed weapons isn't as
risky as it used to be.

PS, the Tsurugi of Muramasa (Samurai quest artifact) uses two-
handed sword skill. A barbarian won't be able to use it though,
at least not without changing alignment to lawful.

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On 10.05.2022 13:03, Praetor Mandrake wrote:

Half of barbarians have starting weapons
a. two-handed sword
b. axe

They said there are no artifact two-handed swords, meaning that the skill was wasteful as it does not power a future artifact to impove it.

If I start a character provided with the two-handed sword I indeed
skip it as soon as possible. The replacement will be the Cleaver as
soon as available. And then continued as extended in my previous post
to some one-handed artifact weapon. In my Barbarian games I often have
the necessity to enhance the skills of the primary weapon, as to stay
alive in the early game with a higher chance. Enhancing the two-handed
sword I also consider a (sort of) "wasted" skill slot, the enhanced
battle-axe skill to a lesser degree (since Cleaver may serve well until mid-game) as a (sort of) temporary "investment".

So basically I agree with you. But I consider that - whether intended
as such by the Devteam or not - as a balancing factor of that fighter
character class.

Janis

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On Tuesday, May 10, 2022 at 7:58:01 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 10.05.2022 13:03, Praetor Mandrake wrote:

Half of barbarians have starting weapons
a. two-handed sword
b. axe

They said there are no artifact two-handed swords, meaning that the skill was
wasteful as it does not power a future artifact to impove it.

If I start a character provided with the two-handed sword I indeed
skip it as soon as possible. The replacement will be the Cleaver as
soon as available. And then continued as extended in my previous post
to some one-handed artifact weapon. In my Barbarian games I often have
the necessity to enhance the skills of the primary weapon, as to stay
alive in the early game with a higher chance. Enhancing the two-handed
sword I also consider a (sort of) "wasted" skill slot, the enhanced battle-axe skill to a lesser degree (since Cleaver may serve well until mid-game) as a (sort of) temporary "investment".

So basically I agree with you. But I consider that - whether intended
as such by the Devteam or not - as a balancing factor of that fighter character class.

Janis

The environment is a factor too, say you find a +1 polished shield, it's
not difficult to accept the 1-handed axe in this case. That was my
experience anyway. It's more of a problem when all you play is
barbarian and have to take your 2-handed weapon everywhere because
it makes things easier.

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Quoting Pat Rankin <r.pat.rankin@gmail.com>:

The biggest knock against using any two-handed weapon is that
if it becomes cursed, both your hands will be stuck to it.

This... doesn't seem like a major concern for the choice of weapon on Dungeon:1.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Monday, June.
Tomorrow will be Tuesday, June.

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On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:13:41 AM UTC-7, David Damerell wrote:

Quoting Pat Rankin <r.pat....@gmail.com>:

The biggest knock against using any two-handed weapon is that
if it becomes cursed, both your hands will be stuck to it.

This... doesn't seem like a major concern for the choice of weapon on Dungeon:1.

It matters even early on when you're deciding whether to spend
skill advancement credits (aka poorly named "skill slots") on the
skill for that weapon. Also for players who recklessly drink from
fountains.

[PS, your signature generator needs of an update.]

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Quoting Pat Rankin <r.pat.rankin@gmail.com>:

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:13:41 AM UTC-7, David Damerell wrote:

Quoting Pat Rankin <r.pat....@gmail.com>:

The biggest knock against using any two-handed weapon is that
if it becomes cursed, both your hands will be stuck to it.

This... doesn't seem like a major concern for the choice of weapon on >>Dungeon:1.

It matters even early on when you're deciding whether to spend
skill advancement credits (aka poorly named "skill slots") on the
skill for that weapon.

I'd definitely go "jam today" on any character who starts with a
two-hander. To be frustrated by a lack of skill slots (sorry) later, I
must first survive D:1.

Also for players who recklessly drink from fountains.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Well, don't do that, then."

[PS, your signature generator needs of an update.]

If the date seems odd, http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/birthdaycal.html may help.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Clown shoes. I hope that doesn't bother you.
Today is Tuesday, June.
Tomorrow will be Wednesday, June.

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On 31.05.2022 14:43, David Damerell wrote:

If the date seems odd, http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/birthdaycal.html may help.

The online equivalent to a cursed scroll of confusion?!

Janis

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