On 26.01.2021 03:17, SteveYo wrote:

Is there any way, except my own polymorph, to "lose" an ice box? My
stash ice box is gone from Vlad's lowest level where I was zapping
and breaking /oCM.

Did you break a wand of teleportation by accident while adjacent?
(But below you said that it's not any more on the level, so that's
no explanation.)

Black Ds can't do that, can they?

A strong pet might pick it up, and the pet getting disintegrated
by a black dragon. (Been there with my BoH and all loot inside.)

Some monsters swallow and digest things on the floor.

No monster zaps /oT at me does it?

Nope. (At least not with the version I played in the past.)

Janis

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Is there any way, except my own polymorph, to "lose" an ice box? My stash ice box is gone from Vlad's lowest level where I was zapping and breaking /oCM.

Black Ds can't do that, can they? No monster zaps /oT at me does it? Anyway, I've exhaustively searched the level.

Thanks for any clarity.

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Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> writes:

On 26.01.2021 03:17, SteveYo wrote:

Is there any way, except my own polymorph, to "lose" an ice box? My
stash ice box is gone from Vlad's lowest level where I was zapping
and breaking /oCM.

A strong pet might pick it up, and the pet getting disintegrated
by a black dragon. (Been there with my BoH and all loot inside.)

Wouldn't that leave the ice box on the floor?

Maybe a giant or some strong monster picked it up and stepped on a
trapdoor or a level teleporter, taking it to some other level?

Some monsters swallow and digest things on the floor.

That's another explanation.

--
Jukka Lahtinen

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On 26.01.2021 15:42, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> writes:

On 26.01.2021 03:17, SteveYo wrote:

Is there any way, except my own polymorph, to "lose" an ice box? My
stash ice box is gone from Vlad's lowest level where I was zapping
and breaking /oCM.

A strong pet might pick it up, and the pet getting disintegrated
by a black dragon. (Been there with my BoH and all loot inside.)

Wouldn't that leave the ice box on the floor?

You can take the word "disintegration" literally; nothing remains.
As mentioned, I had that case in a NH-343 game a couple years ago
(and certainly posted about that incident here at that time).

Disintegration is different from the case that an item is picked
up by a monster and that monster getting killed the ordinary way
(melee, traps, rays, etc.).

Maybe a giant or some strong monster picked it up and stepped on a
trapdoor or a level teleporter, taking it to some other level?

As far as I read the source correctly, traps can only be generated
in Vlads tower at the bottom level in the four niches containing
items. But yes, generally that might be possible.

Janis

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Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> writes:

On 26.01.2021 15:42, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

Maybe a giant or some strong monster picked it up and stepped on a
trapdoor or a level teleporter, taking it to some other level?

As far as I read the source correctly, traps can only be generated
in Vlads tower at the bottom level in the four niches containing
items. But yes, generally that might be possible.

Oh, I missed the detail of this happening at Vlad's tower..

--
Jukka Lahtinen

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On 26.01.2021 22:23, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> writes:

On 26.01.2021 15:42, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

Maybe a giant or some strong monster picked it up and stepped on a
trapdoor or a level teleporter, taking it to some other level?

As far as I read the source correctly, traps can only be generated
in Vlads tower at the bottom level in the four niches containing
items. But yes, generally that might be possible.

Oh, I missed the detail of this happening at Vlad's tower..

Yes, but OTOH your idea with a trap incident makes sense specifically
at the lowest level of Vlad's tower, where the OP has reported that
incident to have happened. So if the OP could confirm the presence of
a level teleport trap in one of the niches he'd have at least a chance
to find the monster with his ice box somewhere in the dungeon after a
thorough re-exploration.

Janis

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On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 1:40:34 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 26.01.2021 22:23, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com> writes:

On 26.01.2021 15:42, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

Maybe a giant or some strong monster picked it up and stepped on a
trapdoor or a level teleporter, taking it to some other level?

As far as I read the source correctly, traps can only be generated
in Vlads tower at the bottom level in the four niches containing
items. But yes, generally that might be possible.

Oh, I missed the detail of this happening at Vlad's tower..

Yes, but OTOH your idea with a trap incident makes sense specifically
at the lowest level of Vlad's tower, where the OP has reported that
incident to have happened. So if the OP could confirm the presence of
a level teleport trap in one of the niches he'd have at least a chance
to find the monster with his ice box somewhere in the dungeon after a thorough re-exploration.

Janis

Thanks to all for the helpful suggestions.
There was, in this instance, no level teleport trap in Vlad's.
Is that even possible. I've seen that 0 times out of hundreds of characters visiting Vlad's.

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On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 11:02:48 AM UTC-5, SteveYo wrote:

On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 1:40:34 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 26.01.2021 22:23, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com> writes:

On 26.01.2021 15:42, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

Maybe a giant or some strong monster picked it up and stepped on a
trapdoor or a level teleporter, taking it to some other level?

As far as I read the source correctly, traps can only be generated
in Vlads tower at the bottom level in the four niches containing
items. But yes, generally that might be possible.

Oh, I missed the detail of this happening at Vlad's tower..

Yes, but OTOH your idea with a trap incident makes sense specifically
at the lowest level of Vlad's tower, where the OP has reported that incident to have happened. So if the OP could confirm the presence of
a level teleport trap in one of the niches he'd have at least a chance
to find the monster with his ice box somewhere in the dungeon after a thorough re-exploration.

Janis

Thanks to all for the helpful suggestions.
There was, in this instance, no level teleport trap in Vlad's.
Is that even possible. I've seen that 0 times out of hundreds of characters visiting Vlad's.

Another idea! I'll curse the ice box, so the pet won't pick it up!

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On 27.01.2021 17:35, SteveYo wrote:

There was, in this instance, no level teleport trap in Vlad's.
Is that even possible. I've seen that 0 times out of hundreds of characters visiting Vlad's.

Frankly, I cannot remember whether some types of traps are excluded
due to some special handling. But at least as far as I remember the
level definition, the traps were unconditionally defined as 'random'.
(Usually at that stage I anyway don't notice level-/teleport traps
because of the MR I have.

Another idea! I'll curse the ice box, so the pet won't pick it up!

Difficult to pick up such a heavy box to curse it.
Why not just drop a cursed item on top of the [non-cursed] box?

Janis

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On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:20:37 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 27.01.2021 17:35, SteveYo wrote:

There was, in this instance, no level teleport trap in Vlad's.
Is that even possible. I've seen that 0 times out of hundreds of characters visiting Vlad's.

Frankly, I cannot remember whether some types of traps are excluded
due to some special handling. But at least as far as I remember the
level definition, the traps were unconditionally defined as 'random'. (Usually at that stage I anyway don't notice level-/teleport traps
because of the MR I have.

Another idea! I'll curse the ice box, so the pet won't pick it up!

Difficult to pick up such a heavy box to curse it.
Why not just drop a cursed item on top of the [non-cursed] box?

Janis

I've seen a pet step on a square with a cursed item, "reluctantly", so maybe could it pick something up? I'm almost sure a "huge" or "gigantic" (according to https://nethack.fandom.com/wiki/Monsters_(by_size)).

Incidentally, the ice box in question was the only object in the closet.

Questions for any willing, hardcore code-divers: (my own 25 years of anecdotal-only opinion provided in some cases):
Q1: Can one #dip an ice box?
I would guess so, but I have not tried it. With GoP or high strength, it's not a big deal to lift it. I'll report back when I polypile an ice box and try to dip it.
Q2: Can a pet pick up a non-cursed item from a pile despite the presence of a cursed item?
From experience alone, I'd say no, but I've never seen an ice-box disappear, either, and I've played since the 90s.
Q2A: Will a pet pick up any item besides the top item in a pile?
From experience trying to arm my pets, I'd say no.
Q3: Can Vlad's have a teleport or level teleport trap?
From experience alone, I'd say no.

So given:
- disappeared ice box (nothing eats ice boxes, right?)
- no level teleport traps on level
- ice box nowhere on level
- definitely a few pets, including IIRC a green dragon
- definitely a hostile black dragon at lower left, breathing from the steps toward left-side top closet (containing said ice box).
- I was often wearing ring of Conflict

Though I'd never seen this, it seems likely my green D picked it up and got caught in the blast of a black D that I had summoned.
I blame myself. Nethack is a harsh mistress.

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On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:20:37 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 27.01.2021 17:35, SteveYo wrote:

There was, in this instance, no level teleport trap in Vlad's.
Is that even possible. I've seen that 0 times out of hundreds of characters visiting Vlad's.

Frankly, I cannot remember whether some types of traps are excluded
due to some special handling. But at least as far as I remember the
level definition, the traps were unconditionally defined as 'random'. (Usually at that stage I anyway don't notice level-/teleport traps
because of the MR I have.

Another idea! I'll curse the ice box, so the pet won't pick it up!

Difficult to pick up such a heavy box to curse it.
Why not just drop a cursed item on top of the [non-cursed] box?

Janis

I've seen a pet step on a square with a cursed item, "reluctantly", so maybe could it pick something up? I'm almost sure a "huge" or "gigantic" (according to https://nethack.fandom.com/wiki/Monsters_(by_size)) can easily lift an ice box.

Incidentally, the ice box in question was the only object in the closet.

Questions for any willing, hardcore code-divers: (my own 25 years of anecdotal-only opinion provided in some cases):
Q1: Can one #dip an ice box?
I would guess so, but I have not tried it. With GoP or high strength, it's not a big deal to lift it. I'll report back when I polypile an ice box and try to dip it.
Q2: Can a pet pick up a non-cursed item from a pile despite the presence of a cursed item?
From experience alone, I'd say no, but I've never seen an ice-box disappear, either, and I've played since the 90s.
Q2A: Will a pet pick up any item besides the top item in a pile?
From experience trying to arm my pets, I'd say no.
Q3: Can Vlad's have a teleport or level teleport trap?
From experience alone, I'd say no.

So given:
- disappeared ice box (nothing eats ice boxes, right?)
- no level teleport traps on level
- ice box nowhere on level
- definitely a few pets, including IIRC a green dragon
- definitely a hostile black dragon at lower left, breathing from the steps toward left-side top closet (containing said ice box).
- I was often wearing ring of Conflict

Though I'd never seen this, it seems likely my green D picked it up and got caught in the blast of a black D that I had summoned.
I blame myself. Nethack is a harsh mistress.

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On 27.01.2021 20:42, SteveYo wrote:

I've seen a pet step on a square with a cursed item, "reluctantly",
so maybe could it pick something up?

Nope. It can't pick up a cursed item or non-cursed items that are
in the heap of items located under a cursed one.

Incidentally, the ice box in question was the only object in the
closet.

Not sure what you want to say here.

BTW; if the box is on a square with a pit, and a boulder carrying
giant dies there, the boulder might bury the item.

Questions for any willing, hardcore code-divers: (my own 25 years of anecdotal-only opinion provided in some cases): Q1: Can one #dip an
ice box? I would guess so, but I have not tried it. With GoP or high strength, it's not a big deal to lift it. I'll report back when I
polypile an ice box and try to dip it.

You can in principle, but I think there's an encumbrance limit at
least at 'overtaxed' to do so.

Q2: Can a pet pick up a
non-cursed item from a pile despite the presence of a cursed item?
From experience alone, I'd say no, but I've never seen an ice-box
disappear, either, and I've played since the 90s.

A pet always picks up the top-most item from the pile. It that one
is cursed he will not pick it up.

Q2A: Will a pet
pick up any item besides the top item in a pile? From experience
trying to arm my pets, I'd say no.

See above.

Q3: Can Vlad's have a teleport or
level teleport trap? From experience alone, I'd say no.

As already said; from the level description file in the source code
package I don't see any reason why not; traps are declared 'random'.

Nethack is a harsh mistress.

Yes, for sure. - But you haven't yet seen Slashem, I suppose? ;-)

Janis

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On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 11:42:31 AM UTC-8, steven...@gmail.com wrote: [...]

- disappeared ice box (nothing eats ice boxes, right?)

A gelatinous cube will engulf one (or many), but the ice box(es)
should be intact once the cube is killed.

Nymphs can pick up and carry ice boxes, regardless of weight.
[Play checked in to-be-3.7, but I don't think it's a change from
earlier versions.]

I didn't notice any mention of what version you're running. In
to-be-3.7, item-using hostile monsters will pick up containers
and try to remove things from inside while carrying such around.
[In my quick test, the nymph took a corpse out of the ice box
before stealing something from me and teleporting away.]
But they--except for nymphs--are subject to carrying capacity
limits when picking things up so most monsters won't be able
to access ice boxes.

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On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 3:51:05 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

...Q1: Can one #dip an
ice box? I would guess so, but I have not tried it. With GoP or high strength, it's not a big deal to lift it. I'll report back when I
polypile an ice box and try to dip it.

You can in principle, but I think there's an encumbrance limit at
least at 'overtaxed' to do so.

...

Janis

Thank you for the top-object-on-pile info. That's as I suspected, but good to know.

Respectfully, you are not correct about a character lifting an ice box. An ice box weighs 900, easily liftable with 18 strength. Indeed, not "overtaxe", not even "burdened".
I've just tested this in wizmode. I was able to #dip the ice box with no problems.

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On 28.01.2021 15:02, SteveYo wrote:

Respectfully, you are not correct about a character lifting an ice
box.

That's fine for me to be corrected where I am wrong, don't worry! :-)

An ice box weighs 900, easily liftable with 18 strength. Indeed,
not "overtaxe", not even "burdened".

An ice box per se, yes. But typically you have to add weight of
your armor, unless you want to risk on these deep dungeon levels
a naked encounter with a hard hitting or death casting monster.
But sure, that's even then far from being overtaxed, you're right.

I've just tested this in
wizmode. I was able to #dip the ice box with no problems.

(I may have confused that because I could never lift these boxes
since random boxes are typically filled with corpses, and a single
one might suffice to not be able to lift it, or even take out the
corpse, depending on the corpse type. Another source of [my]
confusion stems from other containers; cursed bags of holding are
an issue and filled ones often undippable.)

Janis

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On 29.01.2021 13:44, David Damerell wrote:

Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com>:

On 27.01.2021 20:42, SteveYo wrote:

Nethack is a harsh mistress.

Yes, for sure. - But you haven't yet seen Slashem, I suppose? ;-)

<Sequell> Sigmund wins 20.17% of battles.

Sadly I cannot decipher the semantics. Can you elaborate a bit?

Janis

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Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com>:

On 27.01.2021 20:42, SteveYo wrote:

Nethack is a harsh mistress.

Yes, for sure. - But you haven't yet seen Slashem, I suppose? ;-)

<Sequell> Sigmund wins 20.17% of battles.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Stilday, January - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Gorgonzoladay, January - a weekend.

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Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com>:

On 29.01.2021 13:44, David Damerell wrote:

Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com>:

On 27.01.2021 20:42, SteveYo wrote:

Nethack is a harsh mistress.

Yes, for sure. - But you haven't yet seen Slashem, I suppose? ;-) >><Sequell> Sigmund wins 20.17% of battles.

Sadly I cannot decipher the semantics. Can you elaborate a bit?

Crawl - which is arguably a distant relative of NetHack (Linley Henzell
was highly inspired by NetHack - has named unique monsters, like the
Wizard or Asmodeus, but many more of them and they are often fearsome opponents. Sigmund, in particular, as one of the first of these, is
notorious for "wearing a necklace of player skulls".

Most Crawl play is online, and has been for years (like NAO / hardfought,
but more so), and IRC bots give access to a wide range of statistics. One
of those is the proportion of games in which a player saw unique XYZ and
was subsequently killed by the same unique.

Crawl is a harsh mistress.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Stilday, January - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Gorgonzoladay, January - a weekend.

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