Started with a blessed scroll of enchant armor, which got my robe up to +3 which was sick. So now I am a neutral monk with AC -13 (which is pretty good for a monk, considering no body armor), and wearing very little metallic armor.. Sacrificed and got
mojo, which is a banger. Then found magic lamp. Found a wand of poly but only 2 charges. Found good wands, but all with lack of charges.

No reflection in sokobon. No reflection at medusa's.

Had to choose between magic resistance and reflection for my wish with the magic lamp. Chose the PYEC. It provides slotless magic resistance. Charge up poly and it allows me to get much more spellbooks, including drain life, magic missile, complete
enchantment of mojo to +7 and lots of potions for alchemy.

Found Ludios which is great but the problem is dragons (black, 2 blue and others).

I can't do black because disintegration, and blue will explode my ring of shock reistance. But ludios has enough gold to get me +7AC at the temple.

What to do? What to do?

I have one scroll of genocide, I'll bless it, and then I'll...


I'll...

Wait for it:

Genocide DRAGONS! I know. I've never done it before. But it takes care of the dragons at ludios giving me more money and thus more AC for the castle. At the Castle I won't have to worry about dragons, maybe liches, but liches aren't shock resistance, and
I have magic resistance, so the worst thing that can happen is summoning (At AC -17 I'm ok against summons). And I have magic resistance and holy water and scrolls of remove curse, so... it's not really that bad. Not bad at all. I have magic missile
which will deal with mind flayers and disenchanters.

Magic resistance works on wand of death, and the other rays I can get hit with (fire wand and fire monsters and frost monsters) aren't really a problem because I already have resistance. I'll be careful to keep good stuff in my bag. Fire could scorch my
armor but most of it is already proofed.

So: genocide dragons! I don't think I've ever done it before. Hm. A strange solution to the reflection problem.

-Chris

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On 21.01.2022 04:57, Chris Bowers wrote:

No reflection in sokobon. No reflection at medusa's.
[...]
So: genocide dragons! I don't think I've ever done it before.
Hm. A strange solution to the reflection problem.

But mind that this solves the dragon problem, not the reflection
problem; so take care of the wand (of lightning) problem case.
Especially the soldiers in Ludios (where you strive to) I'd fear
for their attack wands. The disintegration issue is also not gone
but to trigger the other disintegration case you must behave bad
at altars, so it's manageable.

Borrowing your thread for an also interesting change of standard
gear in my current gnomish healer _Slashem_ game; found a cloak
of MR quite early (I think from a vampire), got the Mirrorbright
(a shield of reflection) as gift, and killed a deep dragon that
provided scales for a deep dragon scale mail. So the [in Slashem]
really nasty problem of level drains is solved, I don't have to
always think about it and don't need to carefully observe the
status line every turn when intelligent monsters appear. Works
like a charm, and a good option for neutral characters that don't
have access to Excalibur or Stormbringer. My healer uses Mjollnir
like your monk, reached the VS level and is ready for the final
activities (to get the Book and the Amulet) and for the home-run.

Janis

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On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 19:57:40 -0800 (PST), Chris Bowers wrote:

Genocide DRAGONS!

Hm. I did not use genocide on dragons since v1.4f. And even back than it
was actually a bad idea, because that game crashed, whenever it tried
to create a previously genocided monster. - I just didn't know this, at
this time... ;-)

BeAr
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? = ===============================================================--(Oops!)===

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You are indeed correct Janis, wands of lightning were a problem.
One soldier had one and exploded my wand of polymorph. But that's okay, I had already used all the charges from it.
To combat the problem I put all my wands in a bag and one of them unidentified, was cancellation.

Ooopsie!

But, all in all it's fine. The only thing in my bag was food, so that's all good, there are like 100 rations here after beating the soldiers. I'll wish up another BOH when I get to the castle and I have another wand of poly in my stash.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I almost died from a very unfortunate scroll of create monster, coupled with a SECOND scroll of create monster on the back side of Ludios. At that exact moment my spells of healing and magic missle were suddenly forgotten. Damn it. But I escaped with
fire wand of Elbereth. Monk has really good HP regeneration (high constitution) so I was ok, and just had to kill the few soldiers left who didn't respect elbereth.

So everything's cool, killed Croseus and now get +7AC (From the gold and donating) for a monk which will put me at AC -19 that is REALLY a good AC for a monk. That's castle ready. So it was all worth it. I have potions of levitation and wands of frost
for the castle (as well as striking, scroll of earth, etc.

Still don't have reflection. I think I'll use a sack for putting wands and rings in rather than my bag of holding.
I NEVER put wands in bags, EVER to specifically avoid this problem. But this was a rare exception (no reflection and wand of lightning) so I made an exception, which was a mistake.
But it's certainly better for my monk to get +7 AC and be inconvenienced then be dead at ludios or the castle. Ludios also had some fantastic loot as well.

Since I have mojo and liches aren't shock resistant, I'm not fearing them at the castle. Once I get the WOW it will be pretty sick.

I used to hate monks but now I enjoy them. They can cast spells and decently fight at the beginning of the game. Their only restriction is no body armor and eating vegetarian, but since I'm petless, the eating thing isn't so hard. A nice, fun challenge,
but not as frustating at playing Arc (who is bad at everything at the start) or Healer (who can't fight or cast any offensive spells).

I've also never really been good enough to survive to the castle without reflection. I've done it without magic resistance many many times, but NEVER without reflection. (I mean reflection is easier to get: wish, sokoban, medusa, so I always get one of
those before the castle or I die).

I chose magic resistance hoping I'd get reflection, but that was not to be. Magic resistance seemed to be the choice for monk. The thought of ripping through my +5 robe (which also helps me cast spells with armor) was just too distasteful for me. With
most other roles I don't care if my cloak rips or I use a junk cloak. But the Robe is so awesome for monk (and it was highly enchanted) I just couldn't risk it.

Let's see if I can do my first Castle without reflection!

-Chris

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Am 21.01.2022 um 22:57 schrieb Chris Bowers:

You are indeed correct Janis, wands of lightning were a problem.

Shouldn't have been. When I do Ludios reflectionless, which I did more
often than once, then I stand at a knight's distance from the door,
where the whole bunch of soldiers will come in. I am hardly ever hit by
a wand, because only the soldier having passed the door can use a wand
on me and normally does not have the time to do so. If a killed enemy
drops a wand of lightning (or death for that meatter), which I note when
the next one is said "to pick up a wand of..." I step forward (after
having killed the picker), pick it up myself and get back to my square.

One soldier had one and exploded my wand of polymorph.

In slashem, that would have been really bad, because it would have
polymorphed you and your items... So I put my wand of polymorph into a
bag and my wand of cancellation into a sack, as long as I don't have reflection. (Or I leave them in a stash.)

Since I have mojo and liches aren't shock resistant, I'm not fearing

them at the castle.

They can still curse your stuff. Which may be particularly inconvenient
for the bag of holding, so it should go into a sack.

I used to hate monks but now I enjoy them.

I love them, too.

They can cast spells and decently fight at the beginning of the game.

Their only restriction is no body armor and eating vegetarian, but since
I'm petless, the eating thing isn't so hard. A nice, fun challenge, but
not as frustating at playing Arc (who is bad at everything at the start)

Archeologists have speed to begin with. I find them easier than, say,
knights.

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On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 19:36:59 +0100, Klaus Kassner wrote:

Am 21.01.2022 um 22:57 schrieb Chris Bowers:

not as frustating at playing Arc (who is bad at everything at the start)

Archeologists have speed to begin with.

And (depending on the available shops and priest) usually can sell&buy themselves into a good early game rather quickly. (Digging up vaults
and selling identified gems.) Furthermore, sack and tinning kit also
are handy to have. (The latter usually helps in getting early poison resistance, for instance.)

I find them easier than, say, knights.

I can't put my finger exactly on the reasons, but Archeologist actually
is my second favorite role after samurai.

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? = ===============================================================--(Oops!)===

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When I do Ludios reflectionless, which I did more

often than once, then I stand at a knight's distance from the door,

This is a great strategy, thanks for the tip.

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I could not disagree with anyone more vehemently about archaeologists vs knights. Are you kidding me?

Knights start in full armor, with a sword that they can turn into ONE OF THE BEST ARTIFACT WEAPONS IN THE GAME by going to the oracle level!

They start with a crazy amount of food, and the best pet in the game.

Arcs easier than Knights! WHAT! Knights are the easiest role in the game after valkyrie! Who else starts with a top tear (nearly) guaranteed artifact weapon? Who? ANd armor? And food? And the best pet. What??? What are you all talking about. JUMPING
POWER from the beginning of the game? What?!?!?!

I could ascend 20 knights before I even ascended one Arc! I'm pulling my hair out over here.

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On 26.01.2022 05:47, Chris Bowers wrote:

I could not disagree with anyone more vehemently about archaeologists
vs knights. Are you kidding me?

Knights start in full armor, with a sword that they can turn into ONE
OF THE BEST ARTIFACT WEAPONS IN THE GAME by going to the oracle
level!

They start with a crazy amount of food, and the best pet in the
game.

Arcs easier than Knights! WHAT! Knights are the easiest role in the
game after valkyrie! Who else starts with a top tear (nearly)
guaranteed artifact weapon? Who? ANd armor? And food? And the best
pet. What??? What are you all talking about. JUMPING POWER from the
beginning of the game? What?!?!?!

I could ascend 20 knights before I even ascended one Arc! I'm pulling
my hair out over here.

Well, it's of course personal playing style and individual experience
what players prefer and with which role they succeed best, and one
of the previous posters said: "I can't put my finger exactly on the
reasons, but Archeologist actually is my second favorite role after
samurai.", which sounds more like a preference than anything else.
I suppose a (or even the) discriminating factor is the arc's speed;
they maybe take more advantages of it than we do with our playing
style, and then (if so) it would be interesting to hear about their
tactics, so that we can get better in playing the archaeologist role.
Or it's the other way round, that they might take advantages of our
tactics for knights; you mentioned a couple already, and I just add
the use of riding horses as an interesting factor. I don't ride often,
but the fighting (attacks and defenses) properties along with the
carrying capacity are additional factors that should be considered.
Aside from personal preference the statistical data of many players
can probably show a more objective situation about the various role's difficulty. For the NAO players and for NH-343 one can be found at http://nh.gridbug.de/roledifficulty.html, and the data seem to speak
a clear language concerning the two roles mentioned in this thread
with respect to their difficulty and beyond personal preferences.

Janis

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On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:58:35 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 26.01.2022 05:47, Chris Bowers wrote:

I could not disagree with anyone more vehemently about archaeologists
vs knights. Are you kidding me?

Knights start in full armor, with a sword that they can turn into ONE
OF THE BEST ARTIFACT WEAPONS IN THE GAME by going to the oracle
level!

They start with a crazy amount of food, and the best pet in the
game.

Arcs easier than Knights! WHAT! Knights are the easiest role in the
game after valkyrie! Who else starts with a top tear (nearly)
guaranteed artifact weapon? Who? ANd armor? And food? And the best
pet. What??? What are you all talking about. JUMPING POWER from the beginning of the game? What?!?!?!

I could ascend 20 knights before I even ascended one Arc! I'm pulling
my hair out over here.

Well, it's of course personal playing style and individual experience
what players prefer and with which role they succeed best, and one
of the previous posters said: "I can't put my finger exactly on the
reasons, but Archeologist actually is my second favorite role after samurai.", which sounds more like a preference than anything else.
I suppose a (or even the) discriminating factor is the arc's speed;
they maybe take more advantages of it than we do with our playing
style, and then (if so) it would be interesting to hear about their
tactics, so that we can get better in playing the archaeologist role.
Or it's the other way round, that they might take advantages of our
tactics for knights; you mentioned a couple already, and I just add
the use of riding horses as an interesting factor. I don't ride often,
but the fighting (attacks and defenses) properties along with the
carrying capacity are additional factors that should be considered.
Aside from personal preference the statistical data of many players
can probably show a more objective situation about the various role's difficulty. For the NAO players and for NH-343 one can be found at http://nh.gridbug.de/roledifficulty.html, and the data seem to speak
a clear language concerning the two roles mentioned in this thread
with respect to their difficulty and beyond personal preferences.

Janis

In what you mention, arcs are at the very bottom by one measure. (Which I agree with).

One interesting thing about role difficulty is the interesting sampling going on.

Is it that more Arcs are ascended because they are easier? Or is it because it's the most difficult role, and once it's mastered you are on to Slash 'em?

Do servers attract more expert players than what happens when people play on their own consoles at home (which is more casual play?)

It's hard for me to see a role with guaranteed armor, food, the best pet, evasive movement (that only he can do) and a guaranteed artifact weapon (which is one of the best artifact weapons in the game)
coupled with slotless magic resistance guaranteed, and an artifact that has magic missile do so much damage you can take down riders at a distance be listed as a "weaker" role. I can't really fathom that.

Arcs are indeed powerful at the end of the game particularly lawful arcs who can continually sack for greyswandir, their two weapon ability, and access to important spells (such as divination).

But I don't really figure the end game much into role difficulty because I believe the endgame after the castle to be easy and the early game hard. I can count on the fingers of my hand the amount of late games I've lost. The number of early games I've
lost is in the thousands.

My friend who also plays has suggested that riding the horse is very difficult, most people do it (too early) and die all the time, making them think that Knight is a very tough role. Riding should be rare, and you don't need to ride at all the whole
game (it may be a "trick" as I've mentioned earlier: something which seems beneficial that can lead to death).

-Chris

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(Sorry, Chris, sent this post via email by accident.)

On 26.01.2022 19:43, Chris Bowers wrote:

One interesting thing about role difficulty is the interesting
sampling going on.

I don't understand that. (Non-native speaker on this side of the post.)

Is it that more Arcs are ascended because they are easier?

If you mean to compare Arc and Kni, and according to the Wiki tables,
the absolute ascension numbers are insignificant, because there's
roughly twice as many Arcs played and only a few more ascensions if
compared to Knights. So we may wonder why Arcs are played more often.
I seem to recall that Knights are generally considered to be not that interesting to play (but may be misremembering).

Do servers attract more expert players than what happens when people
play on their own consoles at home (which is more casual play?)

When I started to play on NAO I tried to ascend every character (not
that I'd have succeeded in that goal, but played more attentive than
at home). Not sure about other players' play.

But I don't really figure the end game much into role difficulty
because I believe the endgame after the castle to be easy and the
early game hard.

Yes, that is very true for Nethack (less for Slash'em). Difficulty is
coined by the early game and often also until the midgame (depending
on how a game evolves).

My friend who also plays has suggested that riding the horse is very difficult, most people do it (too early) and die all the time, making
them think that Knight is a very tough role.

Early you can slip, fall, and die due to the few HP that character has.
But it had been pointed out here that feeding the horse with all these
apples will make riding safe, even immediately after starting the game.
In the rare cases when I ride I start a bit later. But it's a very good
option, probably underestimated.

In my previous post I forgot to mention speed; riding will also make
you faster, which makes Knights compete with Archeologists or Samurais
in that respect. With a warhorse you are even faster. Until Knights
reach XL:7 (where they get intrinsic speed) the horses are a boost of
their proficiency. The only real issue with riding I seem to recall
is a complicated food management, for yourself and for your steed.

Riding should be rare,
and you don't need to ride at all the whole game (it may be a "trick"
as I've mentioned earlier: something which seems beneficial that can
lead to death).

In my games I only occasionally mounted the steed, and did not ride continuously, but I think every mount makes a steed less tame.

Janis

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On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 4:32:28 PM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

(Sorry, Chris, sent this post via email by accident.)
On 26.01.2022 19:43, Chris Bowers wrote:

One interesting thing about role difficulty is the interesting
sampling going on.

I don't understand that. (Non-native speaker on this side of the post.)

Scientific term: sample size, sample quality. Also called in English "sampling"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size_determination

In other words, you could have a sample of 10 people or a sample of 10,000 people. Obviously a bigger sample size in science is seen as more accurate.

There is also a completely different aspect with role difficulty in terms of SAMPLE QUALITY. For instance, the quality of the sample could be a sample full of all experts at Nethack.

Then there could be a sample of "All newbies" (A newbie is a new player), or a sample of "all experts".

Role difficulty in Nethack changes as people get more expertise with the game.

For instance for a new player, wizard is a very hard role. However for expert players with 10+ years experience, wizard is a very, very easy role. This is because wizard requires a lot of game knowledge, while many other roles do not.

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Am 26.01.2022 um 19:43 schrieb Chris Bowers:

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 12:58:35 AM UTC-5, Janis wrote:

On 26.01.2022 05:47, Chris Bowers wrote:

I could not disagree with anyone more vehemently about archaeologists
vs knights. Are you kidding me?

Knights start in full armor, with a sword that they can turn into ONE
OF THE BEST ARTIFACT WEAPONS IN THE GAME by going to the oracle
level!

They start with a crazy amount of food, and the best pet in the
game.

Arcs easier than Knights! WHAT! Knights are the easiest role in the
game after valkyrie! Who else starts with a top tear (nearly)
guaranteed artifact weapon? Who? ANd armor? And food? And the best
pet. What??? What are you all talking about. JUMPING POWER from the
beginning of the game? What?!?!?!

I could ascend 20 knights before I even ascended one Arc! I'm pulling
my hair out over here.

Well, it's of course personal playing style and individual experience
what players prefer and with which role they succeed best, and one
of the previous posters said: "I can't put my finger exactly on the
reasons, but Archeologist actually is my second favorite role after
samurai.", which sounds more like a preference than anything else.
I suppose a (or even the) discriminating factor is the arc's speed;
they maybe take more advantages of it than we do with our playing
style, and then (if so) it would be interesting to hear about their
tactics, so that we can get better in playing the archaeologist role.
Or it's the other way round, that they might take advantages of our
tactics for knights; you mentioned a couple already, and I just add
the use of riding horses as an interesting factor. I don't ride often,
but the fighting (attacks and defenses) properties along with the
carrying capacity are additional factors that should be considered.
Aside from personal preference the statistical data of many players
can probably show a more objective situation about the various role's
difficulty. For the NAO players and for NH-343 one can be found at
http://nh.gridbug.de/roledifficulty.html, and the data seem to speak
a clear language concerning the two roles mentioned in this thread
with respect to their difficulty and beyond personal preferences.

Janis

In what you mention, arcs are at the very bottom by one measure. (Which I agree with).

One interesting thing about role difficulty is the interesting sampling going on.

Is it that more Arcs are ascended because they are easier? Or is it because it's the most difficult role, and once it's mastered you are on to Slash 'em?

Do servers attract more expert players than what happens when people play on their own consoles at home (which is more casual play?)

It's hard for me to see a role with guaranteed armor, food, the best pet, evasive movement (that only he can do) and a guaranteed artifact weapon (which is one of the best artifact weapons in the game)
coupled with slotless magic resistance guaranteed, and an artifact that has magic missile do so much damage you can take down riders at a distance be listed as a "weaker" role. I can't really fathom that.

As you say yourself below, the late game does not figure much into role difficulty. So the artifact with magic missile does not really count in
role difficulty.

A late knight most certainly can be one of the most powerful roles.

Role difficulty is determined mostly by early game survivability. And
for myself I find that arc and knight seem to be about equally
difficult. They belong to the medium difficulty level, the easy classes
being barbarian, valkyrie, samurai, and cavemen. The most difficult are
tourist and healer. The difficulty of wizards varies strongly, depending
on the RNG. For beginners they also belong into the difficult classes.
Monks, priests, knights and arcs are in the medium level.

Arcs are indeed powerful at the end of the game particularly lawful arcs who can continually sack for greyswandir, their two weapon ability, and access to important spells (such as divination).

Essentially all roles are powerful at the end, with spell-casters
gaining on the physically stronger roles.

But I don't really figure the end game much into role difficulty because I believe the endgame after the castle to be easy and the early game hard.

Sure.

I can count on the fingers of my hand the amount of late games I've lost. The number of early games I've lost is in the thousands.

You have been playing a lot, obviously. With slashem and nethack taken together, I may have played only about two hundred games. And won about
fifty. More than 25% in nethack and less in slashem.

My friend who also plays has suggested that riding the horse is very difficult, most people do it (too early) and die all the time, making them think that Knight is a very tough role. Riding should be rare, and you don't need to ride at all the whole

game (it may be a "trick" as I've mentioned earlier: something which seems beneficial that can lead to death).

Yes. Riding does not make the knight easier or more difficult in the
early game, because you have to dismount too often, so the benefits tend
to be balanced by the failure probability in remounting. If that was
zero for a knight, riding would be a huge advantage and, in my opinion,
move the knight into the class of strong/easy roles.

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Am 26.01.2022 um 05:47 schrieb Chris Bowers:

I could not disagree with anyone more vehemently about archaeologists vs knights. Are you kidding me?

Knights start in full armor, with a sword that they can turn into ONE OF THE BEST ARTIFACT WEAPONS IN THE GAME by going to the oracle level!

They start with a crazy amount of food, and the best pet in the game.

Arcs easier than Knights! WHAT! Knights are the easiest role in the game after valkyrie! Who else starts with a top tear (nearly) guaranteed artifact weapon? Who? ANd armor? And food? And the best pet. What??? What are you all talking about. JUMPING

POWER from the beginning of the game? What?!?!?!

I could ascend 20 knights before I even ascended one Arc! I'm pulling my hair out over here.

My ascension rate for arcs and knights is comparable. (Should rather say
"was", having paused to play for years.) About one in four tries.
Tourists are/were about one in seven.

For all their armor and their pet, knights are simply often too weak to
make good progress at the beginning. Arcs are also weak, but they have
speed and that helps a lot. Jumping is not as good as speed (you cannot
escape into dark areas).

I would say that barbarian and valkyrie are comparably easy, so the
knight is certainly not a contender for place two. A samurai should also
be easier than a knight on average.

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