It's fairly rare for pairs to misjudge enough to play a grand slam in a partscore. In a recent pairs session, though, this happened to almost
every pair (including mine!).

The hands (Spades.Hearts.Diamonds.Clubs):

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

N/S are vulnerable, E/W are not. North deals and passes throughout (thus
East will be the opening bidder). South will overcall 2D if available
(or 1C over 1D), and stay silent thereafter.

Of course, the grand slam isn't possible to safely bid, because you
can't know that the HK is in North's hand (even though it was at the
table). Still, nobody found 6C, or even 5C, and only one pair found 3NT
(which strikes me as being a worse contract than 7C, although it makes
12 tricks in practice).

Does anyone have recommendations about how East/West should bid these
hands? Is slam too hard to reach? Is game?

--
ais523

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In message <rh9it7$va3$1@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org>
writes

It's fairly rare for pairs to misjudge enough to play a grand slam in a >partscore. In a recent pairs session, though, this happened to almost
every pair (including mine!).

The hands (Spades.Hearts.Diamonds.Clubs):

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

N/S are vulnerable, E/W are not. North deals and passes throughout (thus
East will be the opening bidder). South will overcall 2D if available
(or 1C over 1D), and stay silent thereafter.

Of course, the grand slam isn't possible to safely bid, because you
can't know that the HK is in North's hand (even though it was at the
table). Still, nobody found 6C, or even 5C, and only one pair found 3NT >(which strikes me as being a worse contract than 7C, although it makes
12 tricks in practice).

Does anyone have recommendations about how East/West should bid these
hands? Is slam too hard to reach? Is game?

Playing Acol, it would start 1H (2D). Now West has a problem. He/she
would like a fourth spade for a negative double, isn't strong enough for
3C, and a natural 2NT would be a slight stretch. And a pass doesn't look
right. But I think 2NT - if you play it as natural here - is the least
of evils. Then East will bid 3C, and you might at least reach 5C. But on
a spade lead, if the heart finesse is wrong you'll probably go down in
5C. I've heart of "5 or 7 hands", but this is arguably a 4 or 7 hand!
--
John Hall

You can divide people into two categories:
those who divide people into two categories and those who don't

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On 08/15/2020 05:08 PM, ais523 wrote:

It's fairly rare for pairs to misjudge enough to play a grand slam in a partscore. In a recent pairs session, though, this happened to almost
every pair (including mine!).

The hands (Spades.Hearts.Diamonds.Clubs):

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

N/S are vulnerable, E/W are not. North deals and passes throughout (thus
East will be the opening bidder). South will overcall 2D if available
(or 1C over 1D), and stay silent thereafter.

Of course, the grand slam isn't possible to safely bid, because you
can't know that the HK is in North's hand (even though it was at the
table). Still, nobody found 6C, or even 5C, and only one pair found 3NT (which strikes me as being a worse contract than 7C, although it makes
12 tricks in practice).

Does anyone have recommendations about how East/West should bid these
hands? Is slam too hard to reach? Is game?

1H-(2D)-2H; 3C-3N; 4H-p;

No idea if it is the best spot, but it is my honest bidding and will
probably make. Don't see what else to bid than 2H; not perfect, but
everything else feels worse. A little stong in points in lieu of a
third heart. Rest of the bids are then kinda obvious though if you have
a short suit in diamonds game try available you could try that too.

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Travis Crump wrote:

On 08/15/2020 05:08 PM, ais523 wrote:

[snip]

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

[snip]

1H-(2D)-2H; 3C-3N; 4H-p;

No idea if it is the best spot, but it is my honest bidding and will
probably make. Don't see what else to bid than 2H; not perfect, but everything else feels worse. A little stong in points in lieu of a
third heart. Rest of the bids are then kinda obvious though if you have
a short suit in diamonds game try available you could try that too.

I'm a little surprised that East continues over the 2H bid. Do you play
it as constructive? Normally I'd expect it to be limited to at most a
bad 9 points, and wouldn't expect to make game opposite that with East's
hand (we have six losers and it's unlikely that West will cover three
of them). The solid club suit is rather unexpected at that stage of
bidding.

--
ais523

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On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 5:08:58 PM UTC-4, ais523 wrote:

It's fairly rare for pairs to misjudge enough to play a grand slam in a partscore. In a recent pairs session, though, this happened to almost
every pair (including mine!).

The hands (Spades.Hearts.Diamonds.Clubs):

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

N/S are vulnerable, E/W are not. North deals and passes throughout (thus
East will be the opening bidder). South will overcall 2D if available
(or 1C over 1D), and stay silent thereafter.

Of course, the grand slam isn't possible to safely bid, because you
can't know that the HK is in North's hand (even though it was at the
table). Still, nobody found 6C, or even 5C, and only one pair found 3NT (which strikes me as being a worse contract than 7C, although it makes
12 tricks in practice).

Does anyone have recommendations about how East/West should bid these
hands? Is slam too hard to reach? Is game?

--
ais523

My partner (playing West and not having seen the post) and I bid:

North East South West
(pass) 1H (2D) 2NT(1)
(pass) 3C(2) (pass) 3H(3)
(pass) 4H(4) ...All pass

(1) Semi-artificial, forcing, 10+ HCP. Either a hand going to 3NT with a diamond stop or 10-11 HCP with length in the om plus tolerance for opener's major if the om is not reliable. (cue bid = 4-card limit raise or unbalanced limit+,
3M= 3-card balanced limit, X=4 cards in OM)
(2) 3+ clubs
(3) Good 2-card support.
(4) I think hearts are the clear strain based on expected MP's. The re-raise is
justified by the expected club fit. 4H may even be correct at IMP's given that that add-up to 5C is marginal.

Even a blind squirrel ...

Fred.

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In article <AjtWPgATAOOfFwVo@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk>,
John Hall <john@jhall.co.uk> wrote:

In message <rh9it7$va3$1@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org>
writes

It's fairly rare for pairs to misjudge enough to play a grand slam in a >>partscore. In a recent pairs session, though, this happened to almost
every pair (including mine!).

The hands (Spades.Hearts.Diamonds.Clubs):

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

But on
a spade lead, if the heart finesse is wrong you'll probably go down in
5C. I've heart of "5 or 7 hands", but this is arguably a 4 or 7 hand!

Not really, more like 4 or 6. Hearts aren't necessarily running even
if the HK is right, after all -- North could have 4 or even 5 of them.
You can pick up K 4th with a ruff if trumps are 2-2, but it's going to
be a lot easier to make 12 tricks than 13 if they're not. With trumps
3-1 and hearts 4-2, you can play this way:

SA, 3 rounds of trumps (let's hope trumps aren't 4-0!), run HQ, heart to
the J, HA pitching spade, HJ pitching your last spade as North wins,
now get to dummy with a D ruff to pitch your other D on the good heart.

--
David Goldfarb |"Poor dominoes. Your pretty empire took so long goldfarbdj@gmail.com | to build. Now, with a snap of history's fingers... goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu | down it goes."
| -- Alan Moore, _V for Vendetta_

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On 08/16/2020 02:44 PM, ais523 wrote:

Travis Crump wrote:

On 08/15/2020 05:08 PM, ais523 wrote:

[snip]

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

[snip]

1H-(2D)-2H; 3C-3N; 4H-p;

No idea if it is the best spot, but it is my honest bidding and will
probably make. Don't see what else to bid than 2H; not perfect, but
everything else feels worse. A little stong in points in lieu of a
third heart. Rest of the bids are then kinda obvious though if you have
a short suit in diamonds game try available you could try that too.

I'm a little surprised that East continues over the 2H bid. Do you play
it as constructive? Normally I'd expect it to be limited to at most a
bad 9 points, and wouldn't expect to make game opposite that with East's
hand (we have six losers and it's unlikely that West will cover three
of them). The solid club suit is rather unexpected at that stage of
bidding.

A shortness in opponent's suit is pretty valuable. Probably closer to 5
losers than 6 as well; AJT of hearts is fairly useful[I'd frequently
rather have AJT than AQ]. I think it is actually pretty hard to give
partner 8-9 points outside of diamonds and 3 or 4 hearts and not be at
least 50% for game.

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In article <rh9it7$va3$1@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org> wrote: >It's fairly rare for pairs to misjudge enough to play a grand slam in a >partscore. In a recent pairs session, though, this happened to almost

every pair (including mine!).

The hands (Spades.Hearts.Diamonds.Clubs):

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

N/S are vulnerable, E/W are not. North deals and passes throughout (thus
East will be the opening bidder). South will overcall 2D if available
(or 1C over 1D), and stay silent thereafter.

Of course, the grand slam isn't possible to safely bid, because you
can't know that the HK is in North's hand (even though it was at the
table). Still, nobody found 6C, or even 5C, and only one pair found 3NT >(which strikes me as being a worse contract than 7C, although it makes
12 tricks in practice).

Grand slam needs and hearts to run when trumps are 3-1; if trumps are
2-2 you have two diamond ruffs available so you can ruff out king 4th.
As others have pointed out, if they find a spade lead and the heart
king is wrong (i.e., it's with the opponent who overcalled at the 2-level)
then you won't even make game in clubs.

I think Fred's auction (1H-(2D)-2N; 3C-3H; 4H) is the most reasonable
auction available to the best available spot.

--
David Goldfarb |"An athiest is a person who wierdly refuses goldfarbdj@gmail.com |to recieve the gift of beleif in a diety." goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Dave Langford, on rec.arts.sf.fandom

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Our partnership plays reverse lebensohl over all low-level overcalls.

In this case, 2NT would be an artificial game force, non-descriptive. 3C would be constructive, natural, and non-forcing.

Good start, anyway. Not perfect, since opener will pass with a minimum that misfits clubs.

Carl

On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 5:08:58 PM UTC-4, ais523 wrote:

It's fairly rare for pairs to misjudge enough to play a grand slam in a partscore. In a recent pairs session, though, this happened to almost
every pair (including mine!).

The hands (Spades.Hearts.Diamonds.Clubs):

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

N/S are vulnerable, E/W are not. North deals and passes throughout (thus
East will be the opening bidder). South will overcall 2D if available
(or 1C over 1D), and stay silent thereafter.

Of course, the grand slam isn't possible to safely bid, because you
can't know that the HK is in North's hand (even though it was at the
table). Still, nobody found 6C, or even 5C, and only one pair found 3NT (which strikes me as being a worse contract than 7C, although it makes
12 tricks in practice).

Does anyone have recommendations about how East/West should bid these
hands? Is slam too hard to reach? Is game?

--
ais523

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Carl - not much online discussing this treatment. Perhaps it’s the same as good/bad 2N?

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Op 20-8-2020 om 01:35 schreef KWSchneider:

Carl - not much online discussing this treatment. Perhaps it’s the same as good/bad 2N?

As far as I know, Lebensohl is the same as good/bad 2N.
So reverse Lebensohl be bad/good 2N ? :P

Co Wiersma

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But 2NT is "good," the only game force besides cue. Weak-must-speak, as the Bridge World article title said.

Carl

On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 7:35:44 PM UTC-4, KWSchneider wrote:

Carl - not much online discussing this treatment. Perhaps it’s the same as good/bad 2N?

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On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 2:44:38 PM UTC-4, ais523 wrote:

Travis Crump wrote:

On 08/15/2020 05:08 PM, ais523 wrote:

[snip]

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

[snip]

1H-(2D)-2H; 3C-3N; 4H-p;

No idea if it is the best spot, but it is my honest bidding and will probably make. Don't see what else to bid than 2H; not perfect, but everything else feels worse. A little stong in points in lieu of a
third heart. Rest of the bids are then kinda obvious though if you have
a short suit in diamonds game try available you could try that too.

I'm a little surprised that East continues over the 2H bid. Do you play
it as constructive? Normally I'd expect it to be limited to at most a
bad 9 points, and wouldn't expect to make game opposite that with East's
hand (we have six losers and it's unlikely that West will cover three
of them). The solid club suit is rather unexpected at that stage of
bidding.

--
ais523

Edgar Kaplan, in the context of a Kaplan-Sheinwold 5,6-8,9 point single raise specified a
minimum of 14 or 15 high card points for a short suit game try with a singleton. This hand
is a pretty good 14, though it could be improved by the club 10. I think it reasonable to
count the supported heart suit as less than two losers, and would try for game playing
at IMP scoring. However, at match points I would pass as you would. In the actual round,
where I expect 4H to make, 2H lost only to the no-trump contracts. If the king of hearts is offside, 2H likely beats the no-trump contracts as well.

Fred,

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On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 2:08:58 PM UTC-7, ais523 wrote:

It's fairly rare for pairs to misjudge enough to play a grand slam in a partscore. In a recent pairs session, though, this happened to almost
every pair (including mine!).

The hands (Spades.Hearts.Diamonds.Clubs):

West: 984.Q9.A84.AT975
East: A76.AJT84.7.KQ32

N/S are vulnerable, E/W are not. North deals and passes throughout (thus East will be the opening bidder). South will overcall 2D if available
(or 1C over 1D), and stay silent thereafter.

Of course, the grand slam isn't possible to safely bid, because you
can't know that the HK is in North's hand (even though it was at the
table). Still, nobody found 6C, or even 5C, and only one pair found 3NT (which strikes me as being a worse contract than 7C, although it makes
12 tricks in practice).

Does anyone have recommendations about how East/West should bid these
hands? Is slam too hard to reach? Is game?

--
ais523

The issue is that, after an auction which begins (E)1H - (S)2D -? West is without a sound call using standard methods. If he calls double (Negative), any aggressive bid after a 3C reply is overstating his values. If West selects to support Hearts with
less than the expected 3-card support, he is reduced to a more minimum call, such as 2H, assuming that his partnership would allow support with honor-x. If 2H is selected, there is hope. East will try 3C, and West's hand has improved enough to advance
with 4C. You might find your way to game from here.

I play non-forcing free bids (denying 3 card support) in such auctions, but the club suit is too barren for such an action. Make me a 2H bidder.

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