MPs, No vul., South deals.
N: -AK94-KQ542-AQ86
S: J32-Q2-AJ73-KJ53
Bidding:
1D-1S-2S(*)-P
3C-3S- Now what?
* Strength showing, forcing. Better than Double?
nrford100 wrote:
MPs, No vul., South deals.
N: -AK94-KQ542-AQ86
S: J32-Q2-AJ73-KJ53
Bidding:
1D-1S-2S(*)-P
3C-3S- Now what?
* Strength showing, forcing. Better than Double?
How many diamonds did 1D show? If four, then I wouldn't just be making a
slam *try* as North; I would be near-certain that 6D would make
opposite the vast majority of opening-bid hands that had four diamonds,
and consider scientific bidding useful only for looking for
higher-scoring slams.
I would call 3S (rather than 2S) at North's first turn to call, showing specifically strength and spade shortage, together with diamond support.
This would not only give South a good clue as to what the hand is about,
it would also make it clear that a spade stop was missing (when South
fails to respond 3NT), meaning that North can immediately rule out
notrump slams. This also makes it much harder for the opponents to
pre-empt.
How the bidding goes from there depends a lot on what slam conventions
you use. I think most likely, North asks for keycards or keycards-outside-spades (knowing that South doesn't have the SA, a
"regular" keycard ask will give unambiguous information despite the
void), asks for Kings as a grand slam try even though South has not yet
shown any more than a minimum, and South just bids the grand (J32 is a
great holding opposite a void or a singleton Ace, and the doubleton
heart is very likely to be useful).
The main disadvantage in this bidding, from North's point of view, is
that it gives up on the chance of potentially making the extra points
for 6H, but with a 9-card diamond fit it's unlikely that hearts is
better (and some slam conventions allow you to suggest a new suit after determining that you have the values for slam).
It's much harder to find the slam (let alone grand slam) if 1D could be
on only 3 cards, because North isn't strong enough to slam force and
the 1S overcall throws a spanner in the works of determining suit
lengths. As always, the vaguer your opening bid, the more vulnerable it
is to pre-emption.
By the way, I don't think a double by North is necessarily weaker or
stronger than the 2S cue bid; the minimum of the double is weaker, but
either bid could be very strong. Rather, a double tends to indicate
shorter diamonds (suggesting looking for a heart fit), and the cue bid
tends to indicate longer diamonds (suggesting that at least one viable
fit is already known). In competitive auctions, it's very important
to let partner know whether to spend your (potentially pre-empted)
bidding space on looking for a fit, or whether to spend it on
establishing the correct level, because your opponents typically won't
give you the space to do both. So the cue bid tends to carry
connotations of already knowing what the correct suit to play in is.
--
ais523
I should have specified Standard American.If 4=4=3=2 is the only 3-card diamond holding you could have, then "1D
1D normally shows 4, but it could show 3 if 4=4=3=2.
Is opening this 1D any vaguer than 1C? For example,
almost everyone in our club plays Inverted Minors,
but don't you lose the chance to make a weak 1C-3C
raise with 5 clubs if opener can have just 2?
According to experts I've read (such as Larry Cohen:)I think that experts nowadays frequently have two different sequences to splinter over a major, because one turned out to not be enough to
"A Splinter shows enough for game, but not enough for
slam." That would make North's hand too strong for 3S.
I would be concerned about partner's jumping to 5D if
he thinks I'm limited to 15.
I do like the idea of using Exclusion, but not a lotIf you have Exclusion agreed, perhaps a direct 4S bid after 1D, (1S)
of people around here play it. I believe that the usual
definition of Exclusion is a *jump* to 4 of the void suit.
In this auction, 4S would not be a jump, but when playing
Exclusion, I don't know what else it could be, although
as noted below, 2S doesn't agree diamonds in SAYC, so even
if pard takes 4S as Exclusion, he may think that it's in
support of his last natural suit bid (clubs, in this case).
Regarding: "the cue bid tends to indicate longer diamonds." -
ACBL says:
"In SAYC, a cue bid is simply a forcing bid which can be used with
any good hand for which no better bid is available. It may or may
not be a raise. This is clarified by subsequent bidding."
On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 10:03:18 PM UTC-5, ais523 wrote:
nrford100 wrote:
MPs, No vul., South deals.
N: -AK94-KQ542-AQ86
S: J32-Q2-AJ73-KJ53
Bidding:
1D-1S-2S(*)-P
3C-3S- Now what?
* Strength showing, forcing. Better than Double?
How many diamonds did 1D show? If four, then I wouldn't just be making a
slam *try* as North; I would be near-certain that 6D would make
opposite the vast majority of opening-bid hands that had four diamonds,
and consider scientific bidding useful only for looking for
higher-scoring slams.
I would call 3S (rather than 2S) at North's first turn to call, showing
specifically strength and spade shortage, together with diamond support.
This would not only give South a good clue as to what the hand is about,
it would also make it clear that a spade stop was missing (when South
fails to respond 3NT), meaning that North can immediately rule out
notrump slams. This also makes it much harder for the opponents to
pre-empt.
How the bidding goes from there depends a lot on what slam conventions
you use. I think most likely, North asks for keycards or
keycards-outside-spades (knowing that South doesn't have the SA, a
"regular" keycard ask will give unambiguous information despite the
void), asks for Kings as a grand slam try even though South has not yet
shown any more than a minimum, and South just bids the grand (J32 is a
great holding opposite a void or a singleton Ace, and the doubleton
heart is very likely to be useful).
The main disadvantage in this bidding, from North's point of view, is
that it gives up on the chance of potentially making the extra points
for 6H, but with a 9-card diamond fit it's unlikely that hearts is
better (and some slam conventions allow you to suggest a new suit after
determining that you have the values for slam).
It's much harder to find the slam (let alone grand slam) if 1D could be
on only 3 cards, because North isn't strong enough to slam force and
the 1S overcall throws a spanner in the works of determining suit
lengths. As always, the vaguer your opening bid, the more vulnerable it
is to pre-emption.
By the way, I don't think a double by North is necessarily weaker or
stronger than the 2S cue bid; the minimum of the double is weaker, but
either bid could be very strong. Rather, a double tends to indicate
shorter diamonds (suggesting looking for a heart fit), and the cue bid
tends to indicate longer diamonds (suggesting that at least one viable
fit is already known). In competitive auctions, it's very important
to let partner know whether to spend your (potentially pre-empted)
bidding space on looking for a fit, or whether to spend it on
establishing the correct level, because your opponents typically won't
give you the space to do both. So the cue bid tends to carry
connotations of already knowing what the correct suit to play in is.
--
ais523
I should have specified Standard American.
1D normally shows 4, but it could show 3 if 4=4=3=2.
Is opening this 1D any vaguer than 1C? For example,
almost everyone in our club plays Inverted Minors,
but don't you lose the chance to make a weak 1C-3C
raise with 5 clubs if opener can have just 2?
According to experts I've read (such as Larry Cohen:)
"A Splinter shows enough for game, but not enough for
slam." That would make North's hand too strong for 3S.
I would be concerned about partner's jumping to 5D if
he thinks I'm limited to 15.
I do like the idea of using Exclusion, but not a lot
of people around here play it. I believe that the usual
definition of Exclusion is a *jump* to 4 of the void suit.
In this auction, 4S would not be a jump, but when playing
Exclusion, I don't know what else it could be, although
as noted below, 2S doesn't agree diamonds in SAYC, so even
if pard takes 4S as Exclusion, he may think that it's in
support of his last natural suit bid (clubs, in this case).
Regarding: "the cue bid tends to indicate longer diamonds." -
ACBL says:
"In SAYC, a cue bid is simply a forcing bid which can be used with
any good hand for which no better bid is available. It may or may
not be a raise. This is clarified by subsequent bidding."
Op 15-7-2020 om 12:30 schreef nrford100:
On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 10:03:18 PM UTC-5, ais523 wrote:
nrford100 wrote:
MPs, No vul., South deals.
N: -AK94-KQ542-AQ86
S: J32-Q2-AJ73-KJ53
Bidding:
1D-1S-2S(*)-P
3C-3S- Now what?
* Strength showing, forcing. Better than Double?
How many diamonds did 1D show? If four, then I wouldn't just be making a >> slam *try* as North; I would be near-certain that 6D would make
opposite the vast majority of opening-bid hands that had four diamonds,
and consider scientific bidding useful only for looking for
higher-scoring slams.
I would call 3S (rather than 2S) at North's first turn to call, showing
specifically strength and spade shortage, together with diamond support. >> This would not only give South a good clue as to what the hand is about, >> it would also make it clear that a spade stop was missing (when South
fails to respond 3NT), meaning that North can immediately rule out
notrump slams. This also makes it much harder for the opponents to
pre-empt.
How the bidding goes from there depends a lot on what slam conventions
you use. I think most likely, North asks for keycards or
keycards-outside-spades (knowing that South doesn't have the SA, a
"regular" keycard ask will give unambiguous information despite the
void), asks for Kings as a grand slam try even though South has not yet
shown any more than a minimum, and South just bids the grand (J32 is a
great holding opposite a void or a singleton Ace, and the doubleton
heart is very likely to be useful).
The main disadvantage in this bidding, from North's point of view, is
that it gives up on the chance of potentially making the extra points
for 6H, but with a 9-card diamond fit it's unlikely that hearts is
better (and some slam conventions allow you to suggest a new suit after
determining that you have the values for slam).
It's much harder to find the slam (let alone grand slam) if 1D could be
on only 3 cards, because North isn't strong enough to slam force and
the 1S overcall throws a spanner in the works of determining suit
lengths. As always, the vaguer your opening bid, the more vulnerable it
is to pre-emption.
By the way, I don't think a double by North is necessarily weaker or
stronger than the 2S cue bid; the minimum of the double is weaker, but
either bid could be very strong. Rather, a double tends to indicate
shorter diamonds (suggesting looking for a heart fit), and the cue bid
tends to indicate longer diamonds (suggesting that at least one viable
fit is already known). In competitive auctions, it's very important
to let partner know whether to spend your (potentially pre-empted)
bidding space on looking for a fit, or whether to spend it on
establishing the correct level, because your opponents typically won't
give you the space to do both. So the cue bid tends to carry
connotations of already knowing what the correct suit to play in is.
--
ais523
I should have specified Standard American.
1D normally shows 4, but it could show 3 if 4=4=3=2.
Is opening this 1D any vaguer than 1C? For example,
almost everyone in our club plays Inverted Minors,
but don't you lose the chance to make a weak 1C-3C
raise with 5 clubs if opener can have just 2?
According to experts I've read (such as Larry Cohen:)
"A Splinter shows enough for game, but not enough for
slam." That would make North's hand too strong for 3S.
I would be concerned about partner's jumping to 5D if
he thinks I'm limited to 15.
I do like the idea of using Exclusion, but not a lot
of people around here play it. I believe that the usual
definition of Exclusion is a *jump* to 4 of the void suit.
In this auction, 4S would not be a jump, but when playing
Exclusion, I don't know what else it could be, although
as noted below, 2S doesn't agree diamonds in SAYC, so even
if pard takes 4S as Exclusion, he may think that it's in
support of his last natural suit bid (clubs, in this case).
Regarding: "the cue bid tends to indicate longer diamonds." -
ACBL says:
"In SAYC, a cue bid is simply a forcing bid which can be used with
any good hand for which no better bid is available. It may or may
not be a raise. This is clarified by subsequent bidding."
If we can make 5D oposite a normal splinterbid, then we can surely make
6D with this super North hand
Co Wiersma
nrford100 wrote:
I should have specified Standard American.
1D normally shows 4, but it could show 3 if 4=4=3=2.If 4=4=3=2 is the only 3-card diamond holding you could have, then "1D
Is opening this 1D any vaguer than 1C? For example,
almost everyone in our club plays Inverted Minors,
but don't you lose the chance to make a weak 1C-3C
raise with 5 clubs if opener can have just 2?
shows 4" is probably accurate enough to depend on it for this slam.
(Pairs playing 5 card majors tend to have different styles for handling, e.g., 3=4=3=3 hands; if you always open these 1C then the 1D opening
becomes a lot more precise.)
According to experts I've read (such as Larry Cohen:)I think that experts nowadays frequently have two different sequences to splinter over a major, because one turned out to not be enough to
"A Splinter shows enough for game, but not enough for
slam." That would make North's hand too strong for 3S.
I would be concerned about partner's jumping to 5D if
he thinks I'm limited to 15.
clarify the strength. When the bidding starts 1H, 4D, then you don't
have a whole lot of bidding space available to clarify what the splinter
was asaking for.
Splintering over a minor is a little different because there's more
bidding space available.
I also think that you sometimes have to relax your standards somewhat in competitive auctions; on a hand where you have shortness and the
opponents are bidding it, you can expect some scarily high pre-empt very soon. So it's vital to be able to tell partner what your hand is like in
only one bid, as you aren't going to get a second bid, and that
necessarily means that the bids have to be a bit vaguer than normal.
I do like the idea of using Exclusion, but not a lotIf you have Exclusion agreed, perhaps a direct 4S bid after 1D, (1S)
of people around here play it. I believe that the usual
definition of Exclusion is a *jump* to 4 of the void suit.
In this auction, 4S would not be a jump, but when playing
Exclusion, I don't know what else it could be, although
as noted below, 2S doesn't agree diamonds in SAYC, so even
if pard takes 4S as Exclusion, he may think that it's in
support of his last natural suit bid (clubs, in this case).
would solve the problem? That surely can't be natural (the major risk is
that partner takes it as a splinter, but 3S would be the splinter so
this probably counts as Exclusion; after all, it's above 4 of any
plausible suit), and probably agrees diamonds by implication.
My 3S suggestion was at least partially aimed at discovering whether
partner had the Ace of Spades; if partner denies it, you can safely use
a "regular" keycard ask because you know there won't be an Ace wasted opposite your void.
Regarding: "the cue bid tends to indicate longer diamonds." -
ACBL says:
"In SAYC, a cue bid is simply a forcing bid which can be used with
any good hand for which no better bid is available. It may or may
not be a raise. This is clarified by subsequent bidding."
The cue bid doesn't /promise/ support in SAYC, but it nonetheless still
tends to show support; if you're short in partner's suit, there
normally is a better bid available (double). So in practice, the only
times it doesn't show support are when you have a long suit of your own
and are too strong to simply bid it immediately, or when you have length
in the opponents' suits and are unsuitable for a notrump bid for some
reason.
--
ais523
MPs, No vul., South deals.
N: -AK94-KQ542-AQ86
S: J32-Q2-AJ73-KJ53
Bidding:
1D-1S-2S(*)-P
3C-3S- Now what?
* Strength showing, forcing. Better than Double?
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