On Saturday, March 27, 2010 at 3:05:03 PM UTC-4, Bob M wrote:

You play Bergen Raises where 1M-3C is a simple raise (6-10) with 4+
cards and 1M-3D is a limit raise (11-12) with 4+ cards. Is there much
gained (if anything) in reversing the meaning of these raises and
playing Reverse Bergen Raises?

It appears that that on the auction 1S-3C room is gained for slam
bidding investigation when this raise becomes the limit raise. What is
the "usual" meaning of opener's non-jump new suit rebids and 3NT after
1S-3C? Also, what should responder do?

Here are 4 limit raise hands that you hold. After 1S-3C what's your
bid as responder after opener has made a non-jump new suit rebid or
3NT?

From Eddie Kantar (from an early version of RKB)-
(1) T 9 6 3 2, K 5, A J 9, 8 4 3

(2) Q T 5 2, A 3, J 9 5, K T 8 7

(3) Q T 5 2, 9 3, 7 4 2, A K T 8

From Root/Pavlicek "Modern Bridge Conventions" -

(4) K T 8 4, 3, A 9 8 4 2, 5 4 3
That included the note:
"Your excellent high card quality and distribution
make this hand well worth a limit raise".

Bob M

I most often use 3C as 7-12 and 3D as 3-card limit instead of F1NT & then 3 of opener's. I see the ability to protect against 4th & 5th seat getting in over F1NT. Also, the 1NT response is now semi-force. If opener cares if I have 7-9 or 10+, he bids
3D. If not, he rebids 3 of his suit. With the lower range, I rebid opener at 3 level. If 10+, I bid something else since partner wants to go to game. Vern

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On Saturday, March 27, 2010 at 12:36:43 PM UTC-7, henry...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Mar 27, 12:05 pm, Bob M <bobridge...@rogers.com> wrote:

You play Bergen Raises where 1M-3C is a simple raise (6-10) with 4+
cards and 1M-3D is a limit raise (11-12) with 4+ cards. Is there much gained (if anything) in reversing the meaning of these raises and
playing Reverse Bergen Raises?

It appears that that on the auction 1S-3C room is gained for slam
bidding investigation when this raise becomes the limit raise. What is
the "usual" meaning of opener's non-jump new suit rebids and 3NT after 1S-3C? Also, what should responder do?

Here are 4 limit raise hands that you hold. After 1S-3C what's your
bid as responder after opener has made a non-jump new suit rebid or
3NT?

From Eddie Kantar (from an early version of RKB)-
(1) T 9 6 3 2, K 5, A J 9, 8 4 3

(2) Q T 5 2, A 3, J 9 5, K T 8 7

(3) Q T 5 2, 9 3, 7 4 2, A K T 8

From Root/Pavlicek "Modern Bridge Conventions" -

(4) K T 8 4, 3, A 9 8 4 2, 5 4 3
That included the note:
"Your excellent high card quality and distribution
make this hand well worth a limit raise".

Bob M

There is no advantage (or disadvantage) to playing 3c as weaker than
3d or 3d as weaker than 3c EXCEPT THAT whatever method you choose
should have a wider range for the 3c bid than the 3d bid. This is
because a quantitative ask (3d) is available after 1M 3c but not after
1M 3d.
So, using reverse Bergen, you might play
1M 3c = 9-12
1M 3d = 7-8
Now, Kleinman has suggested (perhaps not seriously) as playing
1M 3c as 7-8 or 11-12
1M 3d = 9-10
which is based on the same principal of having a wider range of hands
in the 3c bid as opposed to the 3d bid.
Henrysun909

And, then again, why play Bergen Raises? The concept is that you lose a natural bid to gain what? At best you lose the ability to cooperate in a bidding sequence to explore game chances below the 3 level. Little appreciated, limit raises have the
weakness that opener is not guessing about the quality of the fit, which may be more important than knowing that responder has a 4th trump.

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