Sometimes a hand that comes up that's so unusual it's hard to know where
to start.

At matchpoints, both sides vulnerable, my hand was:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

That's a pretty weird hand to start with, but what made this even
weirder was that my partner, as dealer, opened 1H! This was a natural
bid in a 4-card major system, and thus showed one of two hand types:
- 5+ hearts, 12-19 HCP
- 4+ hearts, balanced, 15-19 HCP, usually no 4-card minor
(The first hand type is much more common, although looking at my own
hand skewed the odds a bit.)

RHO passed, so it was up to me to find a bid.

This isn't an ATB (I'm happy with the result we obtained at the table),
but more a "how do you even approach a hand like this after an opening
like that?" question. I assume it's really easy in a relay system, but
we didn't have anything like that available, so I felt like I was
guessing all the way through. Other than relays, what sort of tools do
you have for bidding something like this, and what's your plan?

--
ais523

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ais523 skrev:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

Side comment:

I find such a line quite confusing to read. My being a Dane
doesn't make it easier because Q in Danish is D (for Dame). I
wish people would use this format:

A764 AKT9853 T3 -

--
/Bertel

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In message <r24qfb$458$1@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org>
writes

Sometimes a hand that comes up that's so unusual it's hard to know where
to start.

At matchpoints, both sides vulnerable, my hand was:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

That's a pretty weird hand to start with, but what made this even
weirder was that my partner, as dealer, opened 1H! This was a natural
bid in a 4-card major system, and thus showed one of two hand types:
- 5+ hearts, 12-19 HCP
- 4+ hearts, balanced, 15-19 HCP, usually no 4-card minor
(The first hand type is much more common, although looking at my own
hand skewed the odds a bit.)

RHO passed, so it was up to me to find a bid.

This isn't an ATB (I'm happy with the result we obtained at the table),
but more a "how do you even approach a hand like this after an opening
like that?" question. I assume it's really easy in a relay system, but
we didn't have anything like that available, so I felt like I was
guessing all the way through. Other than relays, what sort of tools do
you have for bidding something like this, and what's your plan?

Do I have a forcing bid agreeing hearts available? I play Acol, but
since there's never any need on the first round to respond 2NT to show a balanced 11-12 (as in traditional Acol), I like to play the Jacoby 2NT response. (I might not have as many HCP points as normal, but that's
hardly a worry here. Whatever partner's rebid, with hearts agreed I can
start cue-bidding. I hope to find out that partner has both the Ace of
diamonds and the King of spades, in which case I'll bid 7H, as it would
be unlucky to have a third-round loser in spades. Otherwise I'll settle
for 6.
--
John Hall
"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come
sit next to me."
Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)

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In article <30lsf5vdgs4z$.dlg@lundhansen.dk>,
Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

ais523 skrev:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

Side comment:

I find such a line quite confusing to read. My being a Dane
doesn't make it easier because Q in Danish is D (for Dame). I
wish people would use this format:

A764 AKT9853 T3 -

I get where you're coming from. I much prefer the following format:

4720 with A, AK ,,

--
Trump has normalized hate.

The media has normalized Trump.

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In article <r24qfb$458$1@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org> wrote: >Sometimes a hand that comes up that's so unusual it's hard to know where

to start.

At matchpoints, both sides vulnerable, my hand was:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

That's a pretty weird hand to start with, but what made this even
weirder was that my partner, as dealer, opened 1H! This was a natural
bid in a 4-card major system, and thus showed one of two hand types:
- 5+ hearts, 12-19 HCP
- 4+ hearts, balanced, 15-19 HCP, usually no 4-card minor
(The first hand type is much more common, although looking at my own
hand skewed the odds a bit.)

RHO passed, so it was up to me to find a bid.

From a theoretical POV, most people will say something like "I'm bidding at least 6H, but what about 7?" - though of course, 6H might not make.

So, they're taking 6H as the baseline and setting 7H as the target. From a theoretical POV, this is a reasonable thing to do.

But, IRL, and since we are playing matchpoints, maybe a better target is 6Hx.

I think that what I would try to do is make the auction sound stupid, so
that when we eventually reach 6H, we attract a double.

--
The randomly chosen signature file that would have appeared here is more than 4 lines long. As such, it violates one or more Usenet RFCs. In order to remain in compliance with said RFCs, the actual sig can be found at the following URL:
http://user.xmission.com/~gazelle/Sigs/Aspergers

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In message <r267qh$lvk$1@news.xmission.com>, Kenny McCormack <gazelle@shell.xmission.com> writes

I think that what I would try to do is make the auction sound stupid,
so that when we eventually reach 6H, we attract a double.

Isn't the danger with that the possibility of so confusing partner that
he/she does something unfortunate like passing what should be a forcing
bid or converting 6H doubled to 6NT when one of the minors is wide open?

Also there's a fair chance that the opponents have sufficient values
that they may double anyway, not realising that your distribution is
quite so extreme.

One other thought. We're told that after 1H our RHO passes, but with
such distribution around it seems highly likely that LHO will intervene,
and the opponents may well subsequently compete quite vigorously in one
of the minors. I suppose that makes it more likely that we will have to eventually choose between 6H and 7H without knowing too much about where partner's high cards are located.
--
John Hall
"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come
sit next to me."
Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)

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On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 6:43:25 PM UTC-6, ais523 wrote:

Sometimes a hand that comes up that's so unusual it's hard to know where
to start.

At matchpoints, both sides vulnerable, my hand was:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

That's a pretty weird hand to start with, but what made this even
weirder was that my partner, as dealer, opened 1H! This was a natural
bid in a 4-card major system, and thus showed one of two hand types:
- 5+ hearts, 12-19 HCP
- 4+ hearts, balanced, 15-19 HCP, usually no 4-card minor
(The first hand type is much more common, although looking at my own
hand skewed the odds a bit.)

RHO passed, so it was up to me to find a bid.

This isn't an ATB (I'm happy with the result we obtained at the table),
but more a "how do you even approach a hand like this after an opening
like that?" question. I assume it's really easy in a relay system, but
we didn't have anything like that available, so I felt like I was
guessing all the way through. Other than relays, what sort of tools do
you have for bidding something like this, and what's your plan?

--
ais523

My fantasy auction(s) would be 1H-1S, 2S-3C(control), 3D(control)-5C(Exclusion Blackwood) or 3D-5NT(Grand Slam Force in spades).

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Kenny McCormack wrote:

In article <r24qfb$458$1@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org> wrote:

[snip]

At matchpoints, both sides vulnerable, my hand was:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

That's a pretty weird hand to start with, but what made this even
weirder was that my partner, as dealer, opened 1H! This was a natural
bid in a 4-card major system, and thus showed one of two hand types:
- 5+ hearts, 12-19 HCP
- 4+ hearts, balanced, 15-19 HCP, usually no 4-card minor
(The first hand type is much more common, although looking at my own
hand skewed the odds a bit.)

RHO passed, so it was up to me to find a bid.

[snip]

But, IRL, and since we are playing matchpoints, maybe a better target is 6Hx.

I think that what I would try to do is make the auction sound stupid, so
that when we eventually reach 6H, we attract a double.

If I were thinking along those lines, I'd probably splinter in diamonds (assuming I had a specifically void-showing splinter), then bid 6H
regardless of what partner did. Who knows, maybe we make an overtrick,
or make when we would have failed, because they decide not to lead
diamonds at trick 1, and it probably increases the chance of being
doubled by an opponent who has the Ace of Clubs. That might not sound
stupid enough, though (unless partner bid Blackwood; a 6H response to
that would be pretty stupid but would almost certainly be passed out).

--
ais523

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ais523 wrote:

At matchpoints, both sides vulnerable, my hand was:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

That's a pretty weird hand to start with, but what made this even
weirder was that my partner, as dealer, opened 1H!

[snip]

RHO passed, so it was up to me to find a bid.

There have been a few suggestions in this newsgroup, so it's time to see
how they would have gone. (I'm omitting the "make the auction sound
stupid" suggestion because it's too nonspecific for me to figure out
what the auction would have been, and the actual result would likely
depend a lot on the details of the opponents.)

John Hall wrote:

Do I have a forcing bid agreeing hearts available? I play Acol, but
since there's never any need on the first round to respond 2NT to show a balanced 11-12 (as in traditional Acol), I like to play the Jacoby 2NT response. (I might not have as many HCP points as normal, but that's
hardly a worry here. Whatever partner's rebid, with hearts agreed I can
start cue-bidding. I hope to find out that partner has both the Ace of diamonds and the King of spades, in which case I'll bid 7H, as it would
be unlucky to have a third-round loser in spades. Otherwise I'll settle
for 6.

I wasn't playing one, but I'm mostly interested in other people's
methods. Assuming the version of Jacoby 2NT from SAYC (which I happen to
have handy), we get the following auction:

1H 2NT! (heart opening; Jacoby 2NT)
3NT 4C (15-17 points, no shortage; club cue-bid)
4H 6H (no first-round control of diamonds; signoff in slam)

I'd be pretty worried about losing two fast diamond tricks here (as I
was at the table), especially as we've told the opponents which suit to
lead! I think the better continuation would probably be 4S, a serious
slam try with first-round control of spades; partner responds 5C to show
the King of Clubs (or a singleton, which is unlikely from context!), we
respond 5H to show worry about diamonds, and partner (having the
King of Diamonds) raises to 6, so we end up in the same place. (Partner
would pass without a second-round diamond control.)


nrford100 wrote:

My fantasy auction(s) would be 1H-1S, 2S-3C(control), 3D(control)-5C(Exclusion Blackwood) or 3D-5NT(Grand Slam Force in spades).

Something very similar to what you were hoping for could happen if we
tried this route, and the opponents didn't interfere:

1H 1S (heart opening; 4 spades)
3S 4C (spade support, 15+ HCP; club cue-bid)
4S (minimum, no first-round controls to cue-bid)

You got the spade fit you were looking for, but unfortunately partner's
missing the Ace of Diamonds. Additionally, the fact that partner had a stronger-than-expected hand means that either you can't use Exclusion,
or you can't cue-bid, because there's no bidding space to distinguish
between them.

It's still possible to recover by bidding 6H here. We have enough
information to know that playing 6S will be at best on a finesse; you
bid spades first, and if RHO has the DQ, the opponents finesse DQ on the opening lead and then cash DA to defeat the contract. So partner
will need to declare the contract in order to protect DK from the lead.

In practice, LHO will overcall 2D if it's available (which it will be in
this bidding sequence), but that won't make a huge difference to how the bidding sequence will go; opener's bid to show values and spade support
is now 3D rather than 3S but nothing else changes.


As for what happened the table, I was in a fairly new partnership with
no slam conventions agreed but keycard and strong jump shifts, so I
tried the latter:

1H 2S (heart opening; SJS in spades)
3S 4NT (genuine spade support; keycard in spades)
5H 6H (two, no queen; signoff in the heart slam)

One advantage of keycard over cue-bidding here is that it hides the
location of the side controls (although the main reason was that I was
worried that a 4C bid might be misinterpreted). I was seriously worried
about the possibility of two quick losers in diamonds, and also worried
about a potential slow loser in spades (something that cue-bidding
wouldn't be able to clean up). A two-without answer was pretty helpful
(if the ace is in diamonds, we have no first-round losers, if it's in
clubs, that gives a discard for a slow loser in spades or diamonds in my
hand); although slam is by no means a sure thing, I decided to give it a
try, especially because even if there is a killing lead, the opponents
might not be able to find it with no clues as to the side-suit
situation.


Anyway, at the table few people actually reached 6H (only about a
quarter of the field). The best-scoring slam available in practice was
actually 6NT (after all, we're playing matchpoints); it's on a diamond
finesse, but at the table the finesse was on and it scores 7 hearts, 2
spades, 2 clubs, 1 diamond. However, 6H would be the better choice of
contract in the abstract; it's more likely to make, as it doesn't need
the finesse if it's played from partner's side (and it will be, given
partner was dealer). That said, RHO's pass (when RHO is known to have
either a long minor or both minors) means that RHO is likely almost
devoid of points, thus the diamond finesse is something of a favourite
to succeed. So perhaps against a stronger field, who can be expected to
bid to slam more frequently, 6NT would be better, as it has over a 50%
chance of outscoring 6H. It's hard to end up in a notrump contract after
you've cue-bid a void, though, so you'd need to use some other method of finding the slam in the first place.

Anyone who tried the spade slam went down, whichever side they played
from. The fundamental problem with the hand is that the opponents turn
out to have QJT98 of spades between them, so even with a 3-2 split (and
you do get the friendly split), there's no way to avoid a trump loser. Additionally, we turn out to have a 12-card heart fit, at which point
playing any trump suit other than hearts has a potential chance of
disaster if the opponents ruff the 13th heart on the opening lead (and
there are unlikely to be clues about which opponent is singleton and
which opponent is void until you hear the Lightner double, and by then
it's too late).


I find it interesting that everyone here wanted to slam force. Partner
could have opened without the SK, and slam would have been impossible
in that case, because it's a vital card (when you have a double fit,
you need good control of both suits to be able to make a slam). In a
way it's fortunate that my keycard asked about spades, because the HQ
is obviously irrelevant when you have a known 11-card fit and we know
where the HK is already, but the SQ and SK are both highly important
cards. That said, if the SK were missing (without gaining the DA to compensate), the last making contract would have been 5H, and it would
have been impossible to stop there after keycarding in spades (because
a bid of 5H would look like a queen ask). So trying to find out
whether slam makes or not has a real risk of taking you too high!
Perhaps this means that just blasting 6H is the best option after all
(or perhaps blasting 4NT so that the opponents don't know that you
don't care about the number of keycards the partnership has). It also
raises serious doubts about whether trying for 7 is a good idea;
partner already has a fairly well-fitting hand and a lot of value, and
yet the small slam is pretty dubious and only scrapes through because
of the good fit.

--
ais523

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ais523 wrote:

Anyway, at the table few people actually reached 6H (only about a
quarter of the field).

This was a mis-memory; I rechecked and it was actually a little over
half (which makes more sense, given the hand type). Sorry for the misinformation.

--
ais523

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In message <r2i6qu$3kj$1@dont-email.me>, ais523 <ais523@nethack4.org>
writes

ais523 wrote:

At matchpoints, both sides vulnerable, my hand was:

S A764 H AKT9853 D T3 C void

That's a pretty weird hand to start with, but what made this even
weirder was that my partner, as dealer, opened 1H!

[snip]

RHO passed, so it was up to me to find a bid.

There have been a few suggestions in this newsgroup, so it's time to
see how they would have gone. (I'm omitting the "make the auction sound >stupid" suggestion because it's too nonspecific for me to figure out
what the auction would have been, and the actual result would likely
depend a lot on the details of the opponents.)

John Hall wrote:

Do I have a forcing bid agreeing hearts available? I play Acol, but
since there's never any need on the first round to respond 2NT to show a
balanced 11-12 (as in traditional Acol), I like to play the Jacoby 2NT
response. (I might not have as many HCP points as normal, but that's
hardly a worry here. Whatever partner's rebid, with hearts agreed I can
start cue-bidding. I hope to find out that partner has both the Ace of
diamonds and the King of spades, in which case I'll bid 7H, as it would
be unlucky to have a third-round loser in spades. Otherwise I'll settle
for 6.

I wasn't playing one, but I'm mostly interested in other people's
methods. Assuming the version of Jacoby 2NT from SAYC (which I happen
to have handy), we get the following auction:

1H 2NT! (heart opening; Jacoby 2NT)
3NT 4C (15-17 points, no shortage; club cue-bid) 4H 6H (no >first-round control of diamonds; signoff in slam)

I'd be pretty worried about losing two fast diamond tricks here (as I
was at the table), especially as we've told the opponents which suit to
lead! I think the better continuation would probably be 4S, a serious
slam try with first-round control of spades; partner responds 5C to
show the King of Clubs (or a singleton, which is unlikely from
context!), we respond 5H to show worry about diamonds, and partner
(having the King of Diamonds) raises to 6, so we end up in the same
place. (Partner would pass without a second-round diamond control.)

<snip>

I must admit that for some reason I saw your hand as being 4-7-1-0! That
second diamond makes a big difference. Hopefully after a 1H-2NT start
we'll be able to get in enough cue-bidding below the level of 5H to stop
at the 5-level if partner has neither of the top two diamonds. OTOH
perhaps it's better to just blast 6H over 1H in the hope of avoiding a
diamond lead, as then if opener has the Ace of clubs six is likely to
have good chances.
--
John Hall
"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come
sit next to me."
Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)

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I'd probably just bit 4C showing a Club Void (as I play it). If I don't get a bid showing a Diamond control, I sign off.

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