• Position from an OTB game -- should the bot have doubled?

    From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 14 07:02:10 2021
    XGID=aBABBBCA--------A-b--dbAf-:1:1:1:00:11:21:3:0:X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon 10

    Score is X:11 O:21. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O X O |
    | O | | O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | 6 |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | | | X | +---+
    | | | X X X X X | | 2 |
    | X | | X X X X X X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 92 O: 67 X-O: 11-21
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Sun Nov 14 19:19:08 2021
    On 11/14/2021 10:02 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    XGID=aBABBBCA--------A-b--dbAf-:1:1:1:00:11:21:3:0:X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon 10

    Score is X:11 O:21. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O X O |
    | O | | O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | 6 |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | | | X | +---+
    | | | X X X X X | | 2 |
    | X | | X X X X X X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 92 O: 67 X-O: 11-21
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action

    I don't understand the question in the subject line. Are you asking
    about the previous (undiagrammed) position when the bot doubled to 2?

    In any case, this looks like a situation where XG would play on as X.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From J R@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Sun Nov 14 16:31:18 2021
    On Sunday, November 14, 2021 at 7:19:11 PM UTC-5, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 11/14/2021 10:02 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    XGID=aBABBBCA--------A-b--dbAf-:1:1:1:00:11:21:3:0:X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon 10

    Score is X:11 O:21. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O X O |
    | O | | O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | 6 |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | | | X | +---+
    | | | X X X X X | | 2 |
    | X | | X X X X X X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 92 O: 67 X-O: 11-21
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action
    I don't understand the question in the subject line. Are you asking
    about the previous (undiagrammed) position when the bot doubled to 2?

    In any case, this looks like a situation where XG would play on as X.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    I never look at the garbled rgb text position but if you put this into XG the position is I assume correct. (taken from the posted XGID)

    Stick

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 14 21:51:06 2021
    On 11/14/2021 9:47 PM, I wrote:
    Okay, I tried this.  There was nothing wrong with the posted
    position.  But I still don't understand the question in the
    subject line.

    Best guess so far: Contrary to what the original post says,
    X is the bot and O is Daniel. The subject line is telling us
    that in the actual game, X doubled, and Paul is asking us whether
    a rollout would confirm that this is a D/P position rather than
    a TG/P position.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to J R on Sun Nov 14 21:47:18 2021
    On 11/14/2021 7:31 PM, J R wrote:
    I never look at the garbled rgb text position but if you put this into XG the position is I assume correct. (taken from the posted XGID)

    Okay, I tried this. There was nothing wrong with the posted
    position. But I still don't understand the question in the
    subject line.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Mon Nov 15 00:23:59 2021
    On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 12:19:11 AM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 11/14/2021 10:02 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    XGID=aBABBBCA--------A-b--dbAf-:1:1:1:00:11:21:3:0:X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon 10

    Score is X:11 O:21. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O X O |
    | O | | O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | 6 |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | | | X | +---+
    | | | X X X X X | | 2 |
    | X | | X X X X X X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 92 O: 67 X-O: 11-21
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action
    I don't understand the question in the subject line. Are you asking
    about the previous (undiagrammed) position when the bot doubled to 2?

    In any case, this looks like a situation where XG would play on as X.

    It's a failed attempt at a clever trick question.
    The intended answer is "No, the bot should not have doubled because it wasn't the bot's turn."

    Paul

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Mon Nov 15 09:32:03 2021
    On 11/15/2021 3:23 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    It's a failed attempt at a clever trick question.
    The intended answer is "No, the bot should not have doubled because it wasn't the bot's turn."

    Ah, I see. Or maybe, "No, the bot should not have doubled
    because it didn't have cube access"? But your answer is
    better.

    By the way, when I read, "should the bot have doubled?" it
    makes me think that the bot *did* in fact double, whereas
    when I read, "should I have doubled?" it makes me think that
    the human in question did not double. I never thought about
    this point before, but I think it's because I think of people
    as having free will whereas I don't think of bots as having
    free will.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Mon Nov 15 10:25:21 2021
    On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 2:32:07 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 11/15/2021 3:23 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    It's a failed attempt at a clever trick question.
    The intended answer is "No, the bot should not have doubled because it wasn't the bot's turn."
    Ah, I see. Or maybe, "No, the bot should not have doubled
    because it didn't have cube access"? But your answer is
    better.

    By the way, when I read, "should the bot have doubled?" it
    makes me think that the bot *did* in fact double, whereas
    when I read, "should I have doubled?" it makes me think that
    the human in question did not double. I never thought about
    this point before, but I think it's because I think of people
    as having free will whereas I don't think of bots as having
    free will.

    I'm not sure what the state of the art is, regarding attempts to program consciousness.
    But surely, the fact that XG has no free will is not up for debate, and is accepted by (almost) everybody.
    Whether humans have or don't have free will is a more complex and debatable subject.

    Paul

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Tue Nov 16 15:13:44 2021
    On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 2:32:07 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 11/15/2021 3:23 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    It's a failed attempt at a clever trick question.
    The intended answer is "No, the bot should not have doubled because it wasn't the bot's turn."
    Ah, I see. Or maybe, "No, the bot should not have doubled
    because it didn't have cube access"? But your answer is
    better.

    By the way, when I read, "should the bot have doubled?" it
    makes me think that the bot *did* in fact double, whereas
    when I read, "should I have doubled?" it makes me think that
    the human in question did not double. I never thought about
    this point before, but I think it's because I think of people
    as having free will whereas I don't think of bots as having
    free will.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    1. Rollout¹ 21/9 11/5 8/2* eq:+0.562
    Player: 66.51% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.49% (G:1.91% B:0.09%)
    Confidence: ±0.007 (+0.555..+0.569) - [100.0%]
    Duration: 2 minutes 52 seconds

    2. 4-ply 21/15 8/2*(2) 7/1 eq:+0.530 (-0.032)
    Player: 66.52% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.48% (G:2.84% B:0.16%)

    3. 4-ply 11/5 8/2*(2) 7/1 eq:+0.522 (-0.039)
    Player: 66.47% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.53% (G:3.41% B:0.14%)

    4. 4-ply 21/9 8/2*(2) eq:+0.517 (-0.045)
    Player: 65.00% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 35.00% (G:1.21% B:0.04%)

    5. 3-ply 21/15 11/5 8/2*(2) eq:+0.517 (-0.045)
    Player: 65.10% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 34.90% (G:1.41% B:0.04%)

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Tue Nov 16 21:19:40 2021
    On 11/16/2021 6:13 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

    1. Rollout¹ 21/9 11/5 8/2* eq:+0.562
    Player: 66.51% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.49% (G:1.91% B:0.09%)
    Confidence: ±0.007 (+0.555..+0.569) - [100.0%]
    Duration: 2 minutes 52 seconds

    2. 4-ply 21/15 8/2*(2) 7/1 eq:+0.530 (-0.032)
    Player: 66.52% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.48% (G:2.84% B:0.16%)

    3. 4-ply 11/5 8/2*(2) 7/1 eq:+0.522 (-0.039)
    Player: 66.47% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.53% (G:3.41% B:0.14%)

    4. 4-ply 21/9 8/2*(2) eq:+0.517 (-0.045)
    Player: 65.00% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 35.00% (G:1.21% B:0.04%)

    5. 3-ply 21/15 11/5 8/2*(2) eq:+0.517 (-0.045)
    Player: 65.10% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 34.90% (G:1.41% B:0.04%)

    What is this a rollout of? The original position you posted
    was a cube decision.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Wed Nov 17 12:42:45 2021
    On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 2:19:43 AM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 11/16/2021 6:13 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

    1. Rollout¹ 21/9 11/5 8/2* eq:+0.562
    Player: 66.51% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.49% (G:1.91% B:0.09%)
    Confidence: ±0.007 (+0.555..+0.569) - [100.0%]
    Duration: 2 minutes 52 seconds

    2. 4-ply 21/15 8/2*(2) 7/1 eq:+0.530 (-0.032)
    Player: 66.52% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.48% (G:2.84% B:0.16%)

    3. 4-ply 11/5 8/2*(2) 7/1 eq:+0.522 (-0.039)
    Player: 66.47% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 33.53% (G:3.41% B:0.14%)

    4. 4-ply 21/9 8/2*(2) eq:+0.517 (-0.045)
    Player: 65.00% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 35.00% (G:1.21% B:0.04%)

    5. 3-ply 21/15 11/5 8/2*(2) eq:+0.517 (-0.045)
    Player: 65.10% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent: 34.90% (G:1.41% B:0.04%)
    What is this a rollout of? The original position you posted
    was a cube decision.

    ---
    Tim Chow
    Sorry, I posted it to the wrong thread. I have corrected the error.

    Paul

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