• Live by adages, die by adages

    From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 14 09:40:40 2023
    XGID=-Ba-B-C-C---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 131 O: 144 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From BlueDice@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Tue Nov 14 06:53:12 2023
    On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 2:40:43 PM UTC, Timothy Chow wrote:
    XGID=-Ba-B-C-C---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 131 O: 144 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    ---
    Tim Chow

    I'll go with Michy, 'play ultra safe at the advanced stage', 13/4
    --
    BD

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  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Wed Nov 15 00:06:05 2023
    On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:40:43 AM UTC-5, Timothy Chow wrote:
    XGID=-Ba-B-C-C---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 131 O: 144 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    ---
    Tim Chow

    I wonder what adage you're dying by here, attack a long checker? (esp when you have an advanced anchor, the opponent greatly outboarded and 10+ men in the zone?) I've never been a huge fan of that one without many stipulations. Or maybe when you're
    ahead in the race, race? I think that one often falls apart too when we're speaking of abandoning an advanced anchor and is too simplistic in terms of 'ahead'. Some people take that quite literally and don't realize that being ahead 4 pips is not the
    same as being ahead 24 pips which of course is not the same as being ahead 44 pips.

    I know one adage that rarely steers me wrong personally ... Stick 4.13.16

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  • From ah...Clem@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Wed Nov 15 12:16:21 2023
    On 11/14/2023 9:40 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
    XGID=-Ba-B-C-C---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
     | X     O     O    |   | O  X             | +---+  | X     O     O    |   | O  X             | | 2 |  | X           O    |   | O                | +---+
     |             O    |   | O                |  |                  |   | O                |
     |                  |BAR|                  |
     |                  |   |                  |
     |                  |   |                  |
     | O           X    |   | X                |  | O           X    |   | X     X        X |
     | O           X    |   | X     X     O  X |  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count  X: 131  O: 144 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54


    X is ahead in the race by almost 20 pips so the prosaic 13/4 looks
    sound. Running off the anchor seems rash. Blitzing with 13/8 6/2* also
    looks playable, and Magriel's save v bold criteria says bold due to the
    anchor and better board, but I'll just play for the race here and move 13/4.

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 16 08:46:16 2023
    XGID=-Ba-B-C-C---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 131 O: 144 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    The "adage" I had in mind was Magriel's safe-bold criteria.

    https://bkgm.com/gloss/lookup.cgi?magriels+safe+bold+criteria

    Five out of six of the criteria point to a bold play. However,
    the rollout below says the best play by far is the safe 13/4.

    BlueDice suggested Michy's principle of playing safe at the advanced
    stage. I do find that Michy's principle tends to work better than
    Magriel's criteria in this sort of position. On the other hand, in
    the two variants below, XG favors the bold, attacking hit. One has
    to assess not only the general strategic principles that suggest
    bold versus safe play, but how well positioned X is to execute a
    successful attack. He has ten checkers in the zone and a three-
    point board, but after 13/8 6/2* in the original position, he has
    spares only on his 8pt, which mean that it's not so easy for him
    to cover his blot even if missed, and he doesn't have that many
    hitting rolls if O comes in.

    1. Rollout¹ 13/4 eq:+0.221
    Player: 60.73% (G:21.98% B:0.24%)
    Opponent: 39.27% (G:5.91% B:0.25%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.212..+0.230) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ 13/8 6/2* eq:+0.126 (-0.095)
    Player: 57.59% (G:20.60% B:0.24%)
    Opponent: 42.41% (G:6.21% B:0.26%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.117..+0.134) - [0.0%]

    3. Rollout¹ 20/11 eq:+0.097 (-0.124)
    Player: 57.40% (G:20.44% B:0.42%)
    Opponent: 42.60% (G:9.76% B:0.43%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.088..+0.106) - [0.0%]

    4. Rollout¹ 13/9 8/3 eq:+0.070 (-0.151)
    Player: 55.63% (G:20.12% B:0.24%)
    Opponent: 44.37% (G:6.51% B:0.30%)
    Confidence: ±0.010 (+0.060..+0.080) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---------
    Variant 1
    ---------

    XGID=-Ba-B-D-B---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 129 O: 144 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    1. Rollout¹ 13/8 6/2* eq:+0.240
    Player: 60.53% (G:24.36% B:0.27%)
    Opponent: 39.47% (G:5.75% B:0.28%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.231..+0.249) - [99.9%]

    2. Rollout¹ 13/4 eq:+0.219 (-0.021)
    Player: 60.65% (G:21.99% B:0.22%)
    Opponent: 39.35% (G:6.05% B:0.26%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.210..+0.228) - [0.1%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---------
    Variant 2
    ---------

    XGID=-B-aB-C-C---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:64:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 131 O: 143 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 64

    1. Rollout¹ 13/3* eq:+0.226
    Player: 59.96% (G:24.73% B:0.22%)
    Opponent: 40.04% (G:5.75% B:0.28%)
    Confidence: ±0.006 (+0.220..+0.232) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ 8/2 6/2 eq:+0.207 (-0.019)
    Player: 60.08% (G:21.86% B:0.17%)
    Opponent: 39.92% (G:5.55% B:0.26%)
    Confidence: ±0.006 (+0.200..+0.213) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 2592 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Mon Nov 20 22:48:23 2023
    On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 8:46:20 AM UTC-5, Timothy Chow wrote:
    XGID=-Ba-B-C-C---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 131 O: 144 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54
    The "adage" I had in mind was Magriel's safe-bold criteria.

    https://bkgm.com/gloss/lookup.cgi?magriels+safe+bold+criteria

    Five out of six of the criteria point to a bold play. However,
    the rollout below says the best play by far is the safe 13/4.

    BlueDice suggested Michy's principle of playing safe at the advanced
    stage. I do find that Michy's principle tends to work better than
    Magriel's criteria in this sort of position. On the other hand, in
    the two variants below, XG favors the bold, attacking hit. One has
    to assess not only the general strategic principles that suggest
    bold versus safe play, but how well positioned X is to execute a
    successful attack. He has ten checkers in the zone and a three-
    point board, but after 13/8 6/2* in the original position, he has
    spares only on his 8pt, which mean that it's not so easy for him
    to cover his blot even if missed, and he doesn't have that many
    hitting rolls if O comes in.

    1. Rollout¹ 13/4 eq:+0.221
    Player: 60.73% (G:21.98% B:0.24%)
    Opponent: 39.27% (G:5.91% B:0.25%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.212..+0.230) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ 13/8 6/2* eq:+0.126 (-0.095)
    Player: 57.59% (G:20.60% B:0.24%)
    Opponent: 42.41% (G:6.21% B:0.26%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.117..+0.134) - [0.0%]

    3. Rollout¹ 20/11 eq:+0.097 (-0.124)
    Player: 57.40% (G:20.44% B:0.42%)
    Opponent: 42.60% (G:9.76% B:0.43%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.088..+0.106) - [0.0%]

    4. Rollout¹ 13/9 8/3 eq:+0.070 (-0.151)
    Player: 55.63% (G:20.12% B:0.24%)
    Opponent: 44.37% (G:6.51% B:0.30%)
    Confidence: ±0.010 (+0.060..+0.080) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---------
    Variant 1
    ---------

    XGID=-Ba-B-D-B---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 129 O: 144 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54
    1. Rollout¹ 13/8 6/2* eq:+0.240
    Player: 60.53% (G:24.36% B:0.27%)
    Opponent: 39.47% (G:5.75% B:0.28%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.231..+0.249) - [99.9%]

    2. Rollout¹ 13/4 eq:+0.219 (-0.021)
    Player: 60.65% (G:21.99% B:0.22%)
    Opponent: 39.35% (G:6.05% B:0.26%)
    Confidence: ±0.009 (+0.210..+0.228) - [0.1%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---------
    Variant 2
    ---------

    XGID=-B-aB-C-C---cC-b-d-eB-----:1:-1:1:64:0:0:0:0:10
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X | +---+
    | X O O | | O X | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 131 O: 143 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 64

    1. Rollout¹ 13/3* eq:+0.226
    Player: 59.96% (G:24.73% B:0.22%)
    Opponent: 40.04% (G:5.75% B:0.28%)
    Confidence: ±0.006 (+0.220..+0.232) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ 8/2 6/2 eq:+0.207 (-0.019)
    Player: 60.08% (G:21.86% B:0.17%)
    Opponent: 39.92% (G:5.55% B:0.26%)
    Confidence: ±0.006 (+0.200..+0.213) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 2592 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow

    I'm not a fan of Magriel's safe/bold criteria as given in the link. One can make major improvements to it and make it work a lot better.

    Stick

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