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  • Blitz or prime?

    From ah....Clem@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 24 10:25:09 2023
    And if priming, how?

    XGID=a---aBDBA-A-cDb-Ac-c-b----:1:-1:1:53:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O X O | | O O | +---+
    | X O O | | O O | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | X | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X |
    | O X X X | | X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 134 O: 157 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 53




    --
    Ah....Clem
    The future is fun, the future is fair.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to ah....Clem on Sun Sep 24 10:36:29 2023
    On 9/24/2023 10:25 AM, ah....Clem wrote:

    And if priming, how?

    XGID=a---aBDBA-A-cDb-Ac-c-b----:1:-1:1:53:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 1   O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
     +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
     | X  O     X  O    |   | O     O          | +---+
     | X  O        O    |   | O     O          | | 2 |
     | X           O    |   | O                | +---+
     | X                |   |                  |
     |                  |   |                  |
     |                  |BAR|                  |
     |                  | O |                  |
     |                  |   | X                |
     | O                |   | X                |
     | O              X |   | X  X             |
     | O     X     X  X |   | X  X  O          |
     +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count  X: 134  O: 157 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 53

    We've escaped both of our back checkers and have only a two-point board.
    That might suggest a safe play, but we already have ten checkers in the
    zone, and even 16/8 gives O a hitting 6 from the bar. I would continue
    the blitz with 13/8 7/4*.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Sun Sep 24 14:41:19 2023
    On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 10:36:33 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
    On 9/24/2023 10:25 AM, ah....Clem wrote:

    And if priming, how?

    XGID=a---aBDBA-A-cDb-Ac-c-b----:1:-1:1:53:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O X O | | O O | +---+
    | X O O | | O O | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | X | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X |
    | O X X X | | X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 134 O: 157 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 53
    We've escaped both of our back checkers and have only a two-point board. That might suggest a safe play, but we already have ten checkers in the zone, and even 16/8 gives O a hitting 6 from the bar. I would continue
    the blitz with 13/8 7/4*.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    Would you even really seriously consider your play at dmp?

    Stick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ah....Clem@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 25 17:47:30 2023
    XGID=a---aBDBA-A-cDb-Ac-c-b----:1:-1:1:53:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O X O | | O O | +---+
    | X O O | | O O | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | X | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X |
    | O X X X | | X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 134 O: 157 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 53



    It doesn't exactly take a rocket surgeon to see that priming wins more
    games while blitzing will win more gammons. The question is whether the additional gammons are worth it.


    XG says no by a wide margin. I opted to blitz here, as did some pretty
    good players (e.g. NeilKaz), but the additional gammons are just not
    worth it. Not sure how to judge these adequately, and since I mostly
    play short matches where doubled gammons are worth considerably more
    than for money I tend to err on the aggressive side.

    I don't think the simplistic "just make the DMP play" is applicable to
    enough positions to use it regularly, although it works here.

    In the variant, I've moved O's checkers on her four to the six and
    changed it to 5a5a match play. This makes blitzing a small error
    according to XGR+++.




    1. Rollout¹ 16/8 eq:+0.523
    Player: 74.72% (G:14.80% B:0.43%)
    Opponent: 25.28% (G:3.53% B:0.14%)
    Confidence: ±0.007 (+0.516..+0.530) - [100.0%]
    Duration: 6 minutes 01 second

    2. Rollout¹ 13/10 13/8 eq:+0.481 (-0.042)
    Player: 72.11% (G:18.36% B:0.90%)
    Opponent: 27.89% (G:5.28% B:0.25%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.474..+0.489) - [0.0%]
    Duration: 5 minutes 52 seconds

    3. Rollout¹ 16/11 13/10 eq:+0.462 (-0.062)
    Player: 72.06% (G:16.59% B:0.55%)
    Opponent: 27.94% (G:4.58% B:0.21%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.454..+0.469) - [0.0%]
    Duration: 5 minutes 46 seconds

    4. Rollout¹ 13/8 7/4* eq:+0.339 (-0.184)
    Player: 65.23% (G:27.48% B:0.84%)
    Opponent: 34.77% (G:10.12% B:0.82%)
    Confidence: ±0.010 (+0.329..+0.349) - [0.0%]
    Duration: 6 minutes 09 seconds

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller


    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10


    ///////////////////////////
    //variant
    ///////////////////////////



    XGID=a---aBDBA-A-cDb-Ac-e------:1:-1:1:53:0:0:0:5:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0 5 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O X O | | O | +---+
    | X O O | | O | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X |
    | O X X X | | X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 134 O: 161 X-O: 0-0/5
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 53

    1. XG Roller++ 13/10 13/8 eq:+0.680
    Player: 76.40% (G:22.29% B:0.90%)
    Opponent: 23.60% (G:3.44% B:0.13%)

    2. XG Roller++ 13/8 7/4* eq:+0.654 (-0.026)
    Player: 71.51% (G:31.84% B:0.93%)
    Opponent: 28.49% (G:5.96% B:0.33%)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2


    --
    Ah....Clem
    The future is fun, the future is fair.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to ah....Clem on Mon Sep 25 17:55:34 2023
    On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 5:47:34 PM UTC-4, ah....Clem wrote:
    XGID=a---aBDBA-A-cDb-Ac-c-b----:1:-1:1:53:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O X O | | O O | +---+
    | X O O | | O O | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | X | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X |
    | O X X X | | X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 134 O: 157 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 53
    It doesn't exactly take a rocket surgeon to see that priming wins more
    games while blitzing will win more gammons. The question is whether the additional gammons are worth it.


    XG says no by a wide margin. I opted to blitz here, as did some pretty
    good players (e.g. NeilKaz), but the additional gammons are just not
    worth it. Not sure how to judge these adequately, and since I mostly
    play short matches where doubled gammons are worth considerably more
    than for money I tend to err on the aggressive side.

    I don't think the simplistic "just make the DMP play" is applicable to enough positions to use it regularly, although it works here.

    In the variant, I've moved O's checkers on her four to the six and
    changed it to 5a5a match play. This makes blitzing a small error
    according to XGR+++.




    1. Rollout¹ 16/8 eq:+0.523
    Player: 74.72% (G:14.80% B:0.43%)
    Opponent: 25.28% (G:3.53% B:0.14%)
    Confidence: ±0.007 (+0.516..+0.530) - [100.0%]
    Duration: 6 minutes 01 second

    2. Rollout¹ 13/10 13/8 eq:+0.481 (-0.042)
    Player: 72.11% (G:18.36% B:0.90%)
    Opponent: 27.89% (G:5.28% B:0.25%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.474..+0.489) - [0.0%]
    Duration: 5 minutes 52 seconds

    3. Rollout¹ 16/11 13/10 eq:+0.462 (-0.062)
    Player: 72.06% (G:16.59% B:0.55%)
    Opponent: 27.94% (G:4.58% B:0.21%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.454..+0.469) - [0.0%]
    Duration: 5 minutes 46 seconds

    4. Rollout¹ 13/8 7/4* eq:+0.339 (-0.184)
    Player: 65.23% (G:27.48% B:0.84%)
    Opponent: 34.77% (G:10.12% B:0.82%)
    Confidence: ±0.010 (+0.329..+0.349) - [0.0%]
    Duration: 6 minutes 09 seconds

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller


    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10


    ///////////////////////////
    //variant
    ///////////////////////////



    XGID=a---aBDBA-A-cDb-Ac-e------:1:-1:1:53:0:0:0:5:10
    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0 5 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O X O | | O | +---+
    | X O O | | O | | 2 |
    | X O | | O | +---+
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X |
    | O X X X | | X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 134 O: 161 X-O: 0-0/5
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 53
    1. XG Roller++ 13/10 13/8 eq:+0.680
    Player: 76.40% (G:22.29% B:0.90%)
    Opponent: 23.60% (G:3.44% B:0.13%)

    2. XG Roller++ 13/8 7/4* eq:+0.654 (-0.026)
    Player: 71.51% (G:31.84% B:0.93%)
    Opponent: 28.49% (G:5.96% B:0.33%)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2
    --
    Ah....Clem
    The future is fun, the future is fair.

    If you use "just make the dmp play" how it's supposed to be used then yes, it's wildly useful.

    Stick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MK@21:1/5 to Stick Rice on Mon Sep 25 22:51:34 2023
    On September 25, 2023 at 6:55:36 PM UTC-6, Stick Rice wrote:

    If you use "just make the dmp play" how...

    What are you doing here in RGB, stick?

    The last couple dozens of posts here were
    between "math giver" Tim and A.H. Clem.

    Just when I was about to suggest that they
    "get a room", you showed up for a "menage
    a trois"... ;)

    Are you just "whoring" in RGB temporarily
    for a change or are you trying to recruit
    whores for your personal bordello to liven
    it up with moronic position discussions...?

    Frankly, I would be grateful to you forever
    and a day if you can take them two with you
    when you go back home...

    MK

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to ah....Clem on Tue Sep 26 09:54:38 2023
    On 9/25/2023 5:47 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
    XG says no by a wide margin. I opted to blitz here, as did some pretty
    good players (e.g. NeilKaz)

    Clearly, Neil needs a lecture from Stick about making the DMP play.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ah....Clem@21:1/5 to Stick Rice on Tue Sep 26 11:59:49 2023
    On 9/25/2023 8:55 PM, Stick Rice wrote:


    If you use "just make the dmp play" how it's supposed to be used then yes, it's wildly useful.

    So, how is it supposed to be used?

    Is it like "when in doubt make the five point"?


    I did comment that making the priming play looked good, but opted for
    the more aggressive play since that's my nature.

    --
    Ah....Clem
    The future is fun, the future is fair.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Tue Sep 26 14:08:41 2023
    On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 9:54:41 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
    On 9/25/2023 5:47 PM, ah....Clem wrote:
    XG says no by a wide margin. I opted to blitz here, as did some pretty good players (e.g. NeilKaz)
    Clearly, Neil needs a lecture from Stick about making the DMP play.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    Neil has had it and makes use of it. Not surprisingly people sometimes forget to look at it from that angle. If I was the gambling type of guy I'd be willing to bet that you could search Neil's posts on BGO and find in non dmp positions where he often
    points to the dmp play specifically by mentioning it would be best at dmp.

    Stick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 26 14:03:25 2023
    On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 1:51:36 AM UTC-4, MK wrote:
    On September 25, 2023 at 6:55:36 PM UTC-6, Stick Rice wrote:

    If you use "just make the dmp play" how...

    What are you doing here in RGB, stick?

    The last couple dozens of posts here were
    between "math giver" Tim and A.H. Clem.

    Just when I was about to suggest that they
    "get a room", you showed up for a "menage
    a trois"... ;)

    Are you just "whoring" in RGB temporarily
    for a change or are you trying to recruit
    whores for your personal bordello to liven
    it up with moronic position discussions...?

    Frankly, I would be grateful to you forever
    and a day if you can take them two with you
    when you go back home...

    MK

    I was out of country for a few months and just recently back so I'm getting caught up. I'm always whoring around both locations when I have the time.

    Stick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to ah....Clem on Tue Sep 26 14:09:34 2023
    On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 11:59:54 AM UTC-4, ah....Clem wrote:
    On 9/25/2023 8:55 PM, Stick Rice wrote:


    If you use "just make the dmp play" how it's supposed to be used then yes, it's wildly useful.
    So, how is it supposed to be used?

    Is it like "when in doubt make the five point"?


    I did comment that making the priming play looked good, but opted for
    the more aggressive play since that's my nature.
    --
    Ah....Clem
    The future is fun, the future is fair.

    Idk if I have covered it in full on BGO before or not. Feels like I have but I don't have time to search for it now. If not, I will do it in the future.

    Stick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)