• Another lost gem of an idea from the past: "personal MET"

    From MK@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 14 20:26:45 2023
    While searching for old RGB threads relevant to
    subjects that we have been discussing recently,
    I found this: "Weird JF moves".

    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/_ZsA5s7Nowc/m/EeTLqfYxaS0J

    It's a long, tedious one that I won't recommend
    reading but I'll paraphrase some selected lines
    from it to give you the gist of it.

    I was accused of "jacking up the cube", even to
    the extent of trying to "decide a 25-point match
    in 1 game". Why wouldn't I do it if I thought that
    it was to my advantage against the bots..? Yet,
    I had also made, (and I kept making since), the
    point that "it takes two to tango".

    It's interesting to see that my recent comments
    that gamblegammon matches of any length can
    be over in a single game" have roots so far back.

    I was arguing that the "cube could be trivialized,
    "eliminated" from the game by keep taking and
    doubling back", (i.e. turning it into a practically
    cubeless game with more checker decisions, by
    forcing it to be played out to the end), creating
    an advantage for the stronger checker player.

    I was already talking about using "my own criteria"
    for cube decisions based on "stages of the game",
    (i.e. "how much play is left in the game"), which I
    have been using against bots ever since.

    I worked out the details for such a mutant cube
    skill experiment and hopefully I will find the time
    to post it here eventually.

    Some people were willing to extend some credit
    to my ideas by making statements such as: "Given
    extreme differences in skill between two players,
    however, jacking up the cube may be justified" but
    I never accepted them because I didn't see myself
    as weaker than the bots.

    David desJardins, (who later became a math PHD),
    had said: "It seems to me that Murat has a single
    valid point: Jellyfish doesn't realize that it's a much
    stronger player than Murat is. So it doesn't take skill
    differences into account when doubling. If Murat
    does, then he can achieve a higher win percentage
    (especially in long matches) than his relative strength
    would otherwise predict".

    He must be given the due credit for having said this
    back then, (even though I don't agree that Jellyfish
    was "much stronger" than me). In my experiments
    playing *long* matches and money sessions against
    Snowie, Gnubg and XG, I have consistently achieved
    much higher win percentages than predicted by the
    bots but I believe that the discrepancy is due to the
    bots being wrong in estimating my strength based
    on inaccurate, fancyful ER/PR calculations.

    What's really interesting is what David desJardins
    said in this post which I recommend you to read:

    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/_ZsA5s7Nowc/m/-wf-LR8MCvAJ

    I'll comment on some of his selective paragraphs:

    "Your opponent doesn't have to have any weaknesses
    "in order for you to improve your results against it by
    "adopting a "theoretically suboptimal" strategy.

    Music to my ears, from a wax cylinder record... :)

    "Taking doubles that a player just as strong as Jellyfish
    "would drop, is a good example. Since his personal
    "match equity table against JF is different than the
    "theoretical match equity table between equal players,
    "his correct double and take points will be different.

    Did you guys catch the words "personal match equity
    table"? This concept is what led me to post this thread.
    What a novel idea!

    Unfortunately, that was the first and only usage of the
    expression. It was only last year that I started talking
    about running experiments with "mutant match equity
    tables" and suggested that bots offer the functionality.

    I thought about it independently of what he had said
    almost 25 years ago. What a huge loss that nobody
    else developed on the idea during all those years... :(
    I wonder if he had realised himself the potential value
    of his own novel/unique idea. I think this is something
    that needs to be further explored.

    He also said:

    "I think it's possible to make the practical observation
    "that taking more and doubling more than theoretical
    "calculations would predict will improve your match
    "winning chances, and then to implement that
    "observation, without having to have a detailed
    "understanding of the theory.

    I think this is as close a gamblegammon math PHD
    candidate could come to saying that the so-called
    "doubling theory" is mostly bullshit. ;) For this to be
    "possible", the match winning chances predicted by
    theoretical calculations, (and thus what is wrongly
    called a "theory"), must be erroneous!

    What is more likely is that some people, (like me?),
    may be able to make this observation instead and
    "knowingly" take advantage of their opponents who
    implement the inaccurate "cube skill theory".

    If everyone in a congregation implements a same
    ridiculous "cube theory", like "if it's Monday and it's
    raining, double early", "if it's full moon and the third
    week of the month, drop late", etc. it will eventually
    self-validate because everyone will mistakenly end
    up concluding that they are winning or losing based
    on how well they implement that so-called theory.

    I was already arguing this back then using "doubling
    after every 10 moves" as an example in my post.

    Any wonder why in the year 2023, gamblegammon
    mathematicians still can't calculate probabilities of
    match winnings based on rating differences, etc... :(

    MK

    PS: A bit of information that may be useful later is
    that the ten 25-point matches I had played against
    Jellyfish had lasted 9 games on the average.

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 15 09:01:56 2023
    On 6/14/2023 11:26 PM, MK wrote:
    David desJardins, (who later became a math PHD),
    had said: "It seems to me that Murat has a single
    valid point: Jellyfish doesn't realize that it's a much
    stronger player than Murat is. So it doesn't take skill
    differences into account when doubling. If Murat
    does, then he can achieve a higher win percentage
    (especially in long matches) than his relative strength
    would otherwise predict".

    Thanks for digging up a reference to support a claim that I made
    back in 2016.

    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/yDs7m_lpUpA/m/t4aEyBPVBQAJ

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From MK@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Mon Jun 19 22:39:37 2023
    On June 15, 2023 at 7:01:59 AM UTC-6, Timothy Chow wrote:

    On 6/14/2023 11:26 PM, MK wrote:

    David desJardins, (who later became a math PHD),
    had said: "It seems to me that Murat has a single
    valid point: Jellyfish doesn't realize that it's a much
    stronger player than Murat is. So it doesn't take skill
    differences into account when doubling. If Murat
    does, then he can achieve a higher win percentage
    (especially in long matches) than his relative strength
    would otherwise predict".

    Thanks for digging up a reference to support a
    claim that I made back in 2016.

    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/yDs7m_lpUpA/m/t4aEyBPVBQAJ

    Something someone had said in 1999 supports
    something you said 17 years later? When it's not
    even on the same issue?? Comical! :)

    Furthermore, what you said didn't even amount to
    making a "claim" but was a partial and temporary
    concession, (i.e. your admitting "ER is inaccurate"
    against my "claim" that "ER is total bullshit"), like a
    lizard dropping its tail to escape with its life.

    You have always been a wily, slimy debater, (like
    some of your "ilks") and at times I called you guys
    "teflon assholes" because your own shit never did
    stick to you. Like the lizard's tail grows back, your
    tales also grew back, time and again.

    The discussion in 1999 was about my "jacking up
    the cube" because I thought I was better checker
    player than Jellyfish and thus I could exploit it by
    doing so.

    While agreeing or disagreeing with me, others were
    making gross admissions such as a weaker player
    successfully adopt a "suboptimal strategy" against
    stronger opponents playing with "optimal strategy",
    if the stronger player didn't know that he/it was the
    stronger one, without saying anything about the ELO
    being inaccurate, etc.

    Apparently you didn't understand what you read and
    mistaken that they supported your vague comments
    about ER predictions of winning percentages.

    Your post, that you gave a link to, was part of a thread
    that I had started about betting on me vs. the bots, in
    which I had opined that if I would win 40% more than
    predicted by my ER, it would be "a pretty good proof
    that ER calculations are garbage". To which Michael
    replied that even if I could win 20% more, "then *we*
    would beleive you".

    Then in your post, after telling him "Speak for yourself",
    you started speaking for everybody yourself by writing
    "Everybody knows..." and said "that the ER predictions
    of winning percentages are hand-waving estimates
    that are not worth betting your life on" which negated
    his "offer" without a "counter-offer" from you.

    Later in that thread and other threads, I tried numerous
    times to get you to commit to an estimate of yours on
    how inaccurate, (i.e. by what percentage), the ER may
    be but you could never go beyond parroting that you
    would bet I couldn't win more than 50% against XG in
    11-point matches, (even though the bets you objected
    were based on "money games" not "matches", which
    does matter because in money games, match length
    isn't an additional variable causing inaccuracy).

    What if my ER predicted that I would win 50% but that
    I won 70%...? Would that be a good enough proof that
    ER calculations are garbage"? I was basically asking
    for you guys' own gut feelings on how inaccurate ER is,
    kind of like you recently did in BGO:

    https://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?read=210829

    You asked stick a "concrete" question: Suppose A beats
    B with 60% probability in a 5-point match. Do you have a
    gut feeling for how often A would beat B in a 17-point
    match?" I guess you have guts to ask others but no guts
    to answer when you are asked to offer an estimate, let
    alone making a clear stand on anything specific...

    MK

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 20 09:05:56 2023
    On 6/20/2023 1:39 AM, MK wrote:

    Something someone had said in 1999 supports
    something you said 17 years later? When it's not
    even on the same issue?? Comical! :)

    Glad you agree with me!

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From MK@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Wed Jun 21 00:57:28 2023
    On June 20, 2023 at 7:05:59 AM UTC-6, Timothy Chow wrote:

    On 6/20/2023 1:39 AM, MK wrote:

    Something someone had said in 1999 supports
    something you said 17 years later? When it's not
    even on the same issue?? Comical! :)

    Glad you agree with me!

    Say what..?

    MK

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 21 10:42:26 2023
    On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 8:57:29 AM UTC+1, MK wrote:
    On June 20, 2023 at 7:05:59 AM UTC-6, Timothy Chow wrote:

    On 6/20/2023 1:39 AM, MK wrote:

    Something someone had said in 1999 supports
    something you said 17 years later? When it's not
    even on the same issue?? Comical! :)

    Glad you agree with me!
    Say what..?

    MK
    what?

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  • From MK@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Wed Jun 21 13:13:29 2023
    On June 21, 2023 at 11:42:28 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

    On June 21, 2023 at 8:57:29 AM UTC+1, MK wrote:

    On June 20, 2023 at 7:05:59 AM UTC-6, Timothy Chow wrote:

    Glad you agree with me!

    Say what..?

    what?

    At last! You came to your boyfriend's aid. ;)
    Alas! You are a little too late, I am afraid. :(

    MK

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