I don't get many of these, so I don't have much practice, and I don't
know how to query XG to get a ruling.

I'm behind 4 to 5 in a match to 7 with a lot of gammon chances but a
fair number of losses. My opponent offered to resign a single game
(which many people think is bad form when gammons are still possible,
but my opinion is that it's a valid prop in situations like this.

So, do you accept the point and go to (basically) DMP or play on for the gammon?

And if you know how to do a rollout for a decision like this, please
post. Thanks.


XGID=aDC-Aa-------ac--cbb-b----:0:0:-1:00:4:5:0:7:10

X:You O:O
Score is X:4 O:5 7 pt.(s) match.
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
| O O O O | | O O |
| O O O | | O O |
| O O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | O | |
| | | X |
| | | X X |
| | | X X |
| | | O X X X |
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
Pip count X: 14 O: 148 X-O: 4-5/7
Cube: 1
O on roll, cube action


eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"ah....Clem" <ah_clem@ymail.com> writes:

My opponent offered to resign a single game (which many people think
is bad form when gammons are still possible,

At least according to European Backgammon Federation rules, resignations
are illegal as long as there is contact.

So, do you accept the point

No.

know how to do a rollout for a decision like this

A standard rollout for your opponent shows that her equity is about
-1.6, far below -1, with about 70 per cent of the games getting
gammoned. Now if you accept the illegal resignation, you are trading 1
point for 1.6 points. Yes, from your point of view it will often (after
the gammons) be -1/-2 Crawford, whereas after accepting the resignation
it will be -2/-2. So you are waisting the potential free drop.

Best regards

Axel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 7:00:12 PM UTC+1, ah....Clem wrote:

I don't get many of these, so I don't have much practice, and I don't
know how to query XG to get a ruling.

I'm behind 4 to 5 in a match to 7 with a lot of gammon chances but a
fair number of losses. My opponent offered to resign a single game
(which many people think is bad form when gammons are still possible,
but my opinion is that it's a valid prop in situations like this.

So, do you accept the point and go to (basically) DMP or play on for the gammon?

And if you know how to do a rollout for a decision like this, please
post. Thanks.

XGID=aDC-Aa-------ac--cbb-b----:0:0:-1:00:4:5:0:7:10

X:You O:O
Score is X:4 O:5 7 pt.(s) match.
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
| O O O O | | O O |
| O O O | | O O |
| O O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | O | |
| | | X |
| | | X X |
| | | X X |
| | | O X X X |
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
Pip count X: 14 O: 148 X-O: 4-5/7
Cube: 1
O on roll, cube action

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2

This "offer" isn't legal play.
There's no meta-rule in backgammon that says that anything goes
so long as the two players agree.
If there were such a meta rule then, if both players felt tired at the beginning
of a match to 25, they could agree to make the score 24/24 and play at DMP.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 6/3/2023 2:42 PM, Axel Reichert wrote:

A standard rollout for your opponent shows that her equity is about
-1.6, far below -1, with about 70 per cent of the games getting
gammoned. Now if you accept the illegal resignation, you are trading 1
point for 1.6 points. Yes, from your point of view it will often (after
the gammons) be -1/-2 Crawford, whereas after accepting the resignation
it will be -2/-2. So you are waisting the potential free drop.

I agree with this except for the comment about a "free drop."
As you said, if ah_clem wins a gammon, it will be -1/-2 *Crawford*
(or gammon save) and not -1/-2 *post-Crawford*, when he would indeed
have a free drop.

The other comment I have is that you don't even need a rollout here.
In XG, right-click in the "Winning Chances" box, and then select
"Display as -> Match Winning Chances". This will tell you that your
opponent has only slightly more than 40% match-winning chances at
this point, which is much less than the 50% he would have if you
accepted just 1 point.

---
Tim Chow

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> writes:

As you said, if ah_clem wins a gammon, it will be -1/-2 *Crawford*
(or gammon save) and not -1/-2 *post-Crawford*, when he would indeed
have a free drop.

Sorry, of course. I mixed this up and stand corrected.

Best regards

Axel

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6/3/2023 2:00 PM, ah....Clem wrote:

XGID=aDC-Aa-------ac--cbb-b----:0:0:-1:00:4:5:0:7:10

X:You   O:O
Score is X:4 O:5 7 pt.(s) match.  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
 | O  O        O  O |   | O     O          |  |    O        O  O |   | O     O          |  |    O        O    |   |                  |  |                  |   |                  |
 |                  |   |                  |
 |                  |BAR|                  |
 |                  | O |                  |
 |                  |   |                X |
 |                  |   |             X  X |  |                  |   |             X  X |  |                  |   |    O  X     X  X |  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
Pip count  X: 14  O: 148 X-O: 4-5/7
Cube: 1
O on roll, cube action

No rollout because Axel and Tim have already given enough numbers to see
that accepting this resign is a blunder. Thanks.

I had to think a bit, but decided that there were enough gammons to be
had and that if hit there's still a lot of game left - with 7 checkers
off, even if O manages a closeout X is still about 40% to win.

I declined, O shook a 64 to to his, but I eventually straggled home for
the single point win.

This was on FIBS, where there's no rule about when and how to offer a resignation, other than if it will end the match it's automatically
accepted.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 10:44:04 PM UTC+1, ah...Clem wrote:

On 6/3/2023 2:00 PM, ah....Clem wrote:

XGID=aDC-Aa-------ac--cbb-b----:0:0:-1:00:4:5:0:7:10

X:You O:O
Score is X:4 O:5 7 pt.(s) match.
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
| O O O O | | O O |
| O O O | | O O |
| O O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | O | |
| | | X |
| | | X X |
| | | X X |
| | | O X X X |
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
Pip count X: 14 O: 148 X-O: 4-5/7
Cube: 1
O on roll, cube action

No rollout because Axel and Tim have already given enough numbers to see that accepting this resign is a blunder. Thanks.

I had to think a bit, but decided that there were enough gammons to be
had and that if hit there's still a lot of game left - with 7 checkers
off, even if O manages a closeout X is still about 40% to win.

I declined, O shook a 64 to to his, but I eventually straggled home for
the single point win.

This was on FIBS, where there's no rule about when and how to offer a resignation, other than if it will end the match it's automatically accepted.

The automatic acceptance rule was not there in the early days of FIBS (approx 1994 or so).
I remember resigning a single to concede the match and my opponent refusing on the
basis of having gammon possibilities.
He thought that he would get more rating points if he beat me with a higher score.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 5:44:04 PM UTC-4, ah...Clem wrote:

On 6/3/2023 2:00 PM, ah....Clem wrote:

XGID=aDC-Aa-------ac--cbb-b----:0:0:-1:00:4:5:0:7:10

X:You O:O
Score is X:4 O:5 7 pt.(s) match.
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
| O O O O | | O O |
| O O O | | O O |
| O O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | O | |
| | | X |
| | | X X |
| | | X X |
| | | O X X X |
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
Pip count X: 14 O: 148 X-O: 4-5/7
Cube: 1
O on roll, cube action

No rollout because Axel and Tim have already given enough numbers to see that accepting this resign is a blunder. Thanks.

I had to think a bit, but decided that there were enough gammons to be
had and that if hit there's still a lot of game left - with 7 checkers
off, even if O manages a closeout X is still about 40% to win.

I declined, O shook a 64 to to his, but I eventually straggled home for
the single point win.

This was on FIBS, where there's no rule about when and how to offer a resignation, other than if it will end the match it's automatically accepted.

Don't forget in positions like these that when your opponent does get lucky and hit he has to play the game out. You're getting XG's evaluation for playing the game out. It's pretty safe to say your opponent isn't going to come near playing this game
out as well as XG would from his side. You, however, when you're hit, I suspect you'll play the game out just as well as XG.

Stick

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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