• 5-away/4-away cube action

    From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Mon May 29 14:15:33 2023
    XGID=--aBB-BaB--BcCb--b-d-b--B-:0:0:1:00:2:3:0:7:10

    Score is X:2 O:3 7 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O | | |
    | O X X | | X X X |
    | O X X O | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 150 X-O: 2-3/7
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 31 08:14:40 2023
    XGID=--aBB-BaB--BcCb--b-d-b--B-:0:0:1:00:2:3:0:7:10

    Score is X:2 O:3 7 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O | | |
    | O X X | | X X X |
    | O X X O | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 150 X-O: 2-3/7
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    In general, I'm still not quick enough to double at match scores like
    this one, so in an effort at correcting that tendency, I pulled the
    trigger here. Too soon, says XG. See also the rollout below at
    5-away/3-away.

    Analyzed in Rollout
    No double
    Player Winning Chances: 56.18% (G:24.73% B:1.13%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 43.82% (G:13.39% B:1.65%)
    Double/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 56.11% (G:25.64% B:1.15%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 43.89% (G:14.06% B:2.36%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.345
    Double/Take: +0.233 (-0.112)
    Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.655)

    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 14.6%

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.018 (+0.327..+0.363)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.025 (+0.208..+0.258)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

    ----
    5a3a
    ----

    XGID=--aBB-BaB--BcCb--b-d-b--B-:0:0:1:00:2:4:0:7:10

    Score is X:2 O:4 7 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | O | | |
    | O X X | | X X X |
    | O X X O | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 150 X-O: 2-4/7
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in Rollout
    No double
    Player Winning Chances: 56.16% (G:25.36% B:0.95%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 43.84% (G:13.65% B:1.92%)
    Double/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 56.43% (G:25.92% B:0.95%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 43.57% (G:13.57% B:3.03%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.494 (-0.024)
    Double/Take: +0.518
    Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.482)

    Best Cube action: Double / Take

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.015 (+0.479..+0.510)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.018 (+0.500..+0.536)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to Bradley K. Sherman on Wed May 31 08:27:14 2023
    On 5/31/2023 8:18 AM, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
    Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> wrote:
    ...
    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 14.6%
    ...

    What if it's me playing, say, Stick? Is the double still wrong?

    I don't think that such questions have definitive answers. But the justification for such a double wouldn't be that your opponent might
    pass; it would rather be that your gammon value is higher relative
    to that of your opponent, so that you lose your market more easily
    in gammonish positions.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Bradley K. Sherman@21:1/5 to tchow12000@yahoo.com on Wed May 31 12:31:31 2023
    Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On 5/31/2023 8:18 AM, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
    Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> wrote:
    ...
    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 14.6% >>> ...

    What if it's me playing, say, Stick? Is the double still wrong?

    I don't think that such questions have definitive answers. But the >justification for such a double wouldn't be that your opponent might
    pass; it would rather be that your gammon value is higher relative
    to that of your opponent, so that you lose your market more easily
    in gammonish positions.

    And that my winning chances are lower than 50% in unplayed games.

    --bks

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  • From Bradley K. Sherman@21:1/5 to tchow12000@yahoo.com on Wed May 31 12:18:53 2023
    Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> wrote:
    ...
    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 14.6%
    ...

    What if it's me playing, say, Stick? Is the double still wrong?

    --bks

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Bradley K. Sherman on Wed May 31 11:07:38 2023
    On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 1:18:55 PM UTC+1, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
    Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
    ...
    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 14.6%
    ...

    What if it's me playing, say, Stick? Is the double still wrong?

    --bks

    Don't be so modest. The probability of Stick beating you in a match to 11 is less than 53%, I think.
    Absolutely no reason to deviate from your extraordinarily precise play when you meet him.
    Great to see you back, by the way!

    Paul

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  • From Bradley K. Sherman@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Wed May 31 18:24:38 2023
    peps...@gmail.com <pepstein5@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 1:18:55 PM UTC+1, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
    Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
    ...
    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 14.6%
    ...

    What if it's me playing, say, Stick? Is the double still wrong?

    Don't be so modest. The probability of Stick beating you in a match to
    11 is less than 53%, I think.
    ...

    Thanks! But I think it's probably more like 60-70%.

    --bks

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  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to Bradley K. Sherman on Thu Jun 1 04:14:32 2023
    On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 8:18:55 AM UTC-4, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
    Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
    ...
    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 14.6%
    ...

    What if it's me playing, say, Stick? Is the double still wrong?

    --bks

    I definitely think questions like this can have definitive answers. I don't want to get into it fully because it takes a long time to include the whats and the whys, a good place to start is GNU where you can load a weighted match equity table. If we
    load the jac100 table which basically assumed a 100 ELO difference/3 PR difference, it already has it as a small/medium sized cube depending on your own definition of it. For simplification, let's assume I play a 3 PR, what do you play? No need to
    answer but if it's greater than 6 PR then you can extrapolate from the information you already have to how big of a cube it potentially is. In fact, if you're like an aggressive checker play 10 PR player I could even put forth the argument this is a
    pass.

    Cube decisions at lopsided ELOs/PRs is tricky. Some big factors already mentioned are that in future games you aren't 50/50 to win (or whatever the bot assumes in bot v. bot play at that score). It also assumes that whatever the gammon value is
    reported by the bot is (quite) low as it's far more important for you to win a gammon than it is for me. So not only is your gammon value elevated, mine is also reduced. One other issue especially in potentially blitzy positions like this one is that
    often the worse the PR, the more one tends to (over) blitz in this type of position. While some plays may be dinged by the bots, it may actually be correct because of the skewed strength of you and your opponent to do so.

    It gets tricky for the better player when facing some of these potentially gammonish AtS cubes. In a long match, I forget the exact length, I once faced a 4 cube from a player who was a solid 7 PR or more worse than myself. Mochy was watching at the
    time. It was a position that was very easy to play out for the other side, basically they either gammoned me or I won. I dropped without hesitation knowing the bot would say it's not even a double. After the match Mochy asked me if I passed because of
    who I was playing. Of course, and he knew on the spot.

    I also agree with you I'm probably 65% +/- v. you in an 11pt match and you should, when applicable, adjust your play as best you can versus this type of player. Even when I play XG if I'm playing to see how often I can actually beat XG itself I will
    deviate from how I'd play a top tier player.

    Stick

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to Stick Rice on Thu Jun 1 07:42:35 2023
    On 6/1/2023 7:14 AM, Stick Rice wrote:
    I also agree with you I'm probably 65% +/- v. you in an 11pt match

    XG/GNU is less than 60% against him in an 11pt match. How are you
    getting more of an advantage against him when you don't even know
    his specific strengths and weaknesses?

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Bradley K. Sherman@21:1/5 to tchow12000@yahoo.com on Thu Jun 1 12:42:47 2023
    Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On 6/1/2023 7:14 AM, Stick Rice wrote:
    I also agree with you I'm probably 65% +/- v. you in an 11pt match

    XG/GNU is less than 60% against him in an 11pt match. How are you
    getting more of an advantage against him when you don't even know
    his specific strengths and weaknesses?

    Even I don't know what my record would be against the bots
    in 11-pt matches, so let's not argue about that. The question
    is whether cube decisions in match play should be affected by
    relative strengths of the players.

    I suppose a further question would be whether ChatGPT-GNUBG
    should alter its play based on its (running) estimate of the
    human player's strength.

    --bks

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  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Thu Jun 1 09:42:05 2023
    On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
    On 6/1/2023 7:14 AM, Stick Rice wrote:
    I also agree with you I'm probably 65% +/- v. you in an 11pt match
    XG/GNU is less than 60% against him in an 11pt match. How are you
    getting more of an advantage against him when you don't even know
    his specific strengths and weaknesses?

    ---
    Tim Chow

    Where in the world did you pull XG/GNU is less than 60% against him in 11pt matches?

    Stick

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Bradley K. Sherman on Thu Jun 1 14:00:35 2023
    On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:42:49 PM UTC+1, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
    Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On 6/1/2023 7:14 AM, Stick Rice wrote:
    I also agree with you I'm probably 65% +/- v. you in an 11pt match

    XG/GNU is less than 60% against him in an 11pt match. How are you
    getting more of an advantage against him when you don't even know
    his specific strengths and weaknesses?
    Even I don't know what my record would be against the bots
    in 11-pt matches, so let's not argue about that. ...

    You opened up a can of worms by posing you vs Stick as an example, rather
    than making the question of different strengths purely a theoretical one.

    Paul

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to Bradley K. Sherman on Fri Jun 2 08:01:16 2023
    On 6/1/2023 8:42 AM, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
    Even I don't know what my record would be against the bots
    in 11-pt matches, so let's not argue about that.

    Yes, sorry, I got confused about the match length. What I
    remembered was that you reported a 40% win rate against GNUBG,
    but when I checked, I saw that you were talking about 5-point
    matches, not 11-point matches.

    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/wrm1Ic3bEYw/m/-SEsPQ9AAUQJ

    On the other hand, the current issue of the USBGF PrimeTime
    magazine has an interesting article by Art Benjamin, Richard
    Stubbe, and Susan Martonosi, who collected approximately
    19,000 matches from Backgammon Studio Heroes, courtesy of Terje
    Pedersen. They ran the stats and came to the unexpected
    conclusion that while PR difference does a pretty good job of
    predicting the win rate, the *match length doesn't matter*.
    If D is the PR difference, then their predicted win percentage
    for the stronger player (if D >= 1) is

    50.32 + 2.23 D

    and the match length doesn't enter the formula. (But note that
    they only considered match lengths from 5 points to 17 points.)

    They don't claim to have the "correct" explanation for their
    results. One obvious possibility is that 19,000 matches is not
    enough data, or at least not enough high-quality data. Another
    thing that's odd, and that I plan to ask Art about, is that they
    say that they used GNUBG to calculate PR. I didn't know that
    GNUBG was able to calculate PR (of course, it computes Snowie ER
    and its own home-grown error rate measure, but PR is defined in
    a different way). So maybe they made a mistake calculating PR
    (though even so, they probably did calculate something close to PR).

    Among their proposed explanations, the one that sounds most plausible
    to me (if we assume that match length really doesn't matter much,
    at least in the range between 5-pointers and 17-pointers) is that
    errors don't affect your match-winning chances much until near the
    end of the match. That means that the stronger player is only a
    very slight favorite to be ahead by the time the match score gets
    down to 5-away/X-away.

    In any case, if we are to believe that the data from the 19,000
    matches is reliable, then it suggests that your PR is around 5
    and that your chances against Stick---assuming Stick's PR is
    around 2---would be about 43%, whether it's a 5-pointer or an
    11-pointer.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to Stick Rice on Fri Jun 2 08:03:16 2023
    On 6/1/2023 12:42 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
    On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
    On 6/1/2023 7:14 AM, Stick Rice wrote:
    I also agree with you I'm probably 65% +/- v. you in an 11pt match
    XG/GNU is less than 60% against him in an 11pt match. How are you
    getting more of an advantage against him when you don't even know
    his specific strengths and weaknesses?

    ---
    Tim Chow

    Where in the world did you pull XG/GNU is less than 60% against him in 11pt matches?

    Sorry, I was relying on my memory of what Bradley said here on
    r.g.b. about ten years ago, but when I checked, he was talking
    about 5-pointers and not 11-pointers. See my other post in this
    thread for more detail.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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