XGID=-AB-BaC-C--BcBb--b-babb---:1:-1:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O | +---+
| X O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X X |
| O X X | | X O X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 103 O: 128 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 61
---
Tim Chow
XGID=-AB-BaC-C--BcBb--b-babb---:1:-1:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O | +---+
| X O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X X |
| O X X | | X O X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 103 O: 128 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 61
---
Tim Chow
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:49:06 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
XGID=-AB-BaC-C--BcBb--b-babb---:1:-1:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O | +---+
| X O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X X |
| O X X | | X O X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 103 O: 128 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 61
---I'd make the 5 point. This is a position with gammon possibilities that go up with the hit, and even if our blot is hit, we still have a really strong game.
Tim Chow
Bob
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:40:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Zimmerman wrote:in the race? (there's still another sliver puzzle piece that has to do with the cube but we're just going to ignore it for all the tents and all the porpoises)
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:49:06 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
XGID=-AB-BaC-C--BcBb--b-babb---:1:-1:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O | +---+
| X O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X X |
| O X X | | X O X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 103 O: 128 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 61
---I'd make the 5 point. This is a position with gammon possibilities that go up with the hit, and even if our blot is hit, we still have a really strong game.
Tim Chow
BobDo you have an estimate for how much our gammon chances go up when we make the 5pt? How about how many more gammons we lose? Then the last piece of the puzzle would be how many more single games do we win by playing the quiet 8/1 while ahead 30+ pips
Stick
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:58:20 PM UTC-4, Stick Rice wrote:in the race? (there's still another sliver puzzle piece that has to do with the cube but we're just going to ignore it for all the tents and all the porpoises)
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:40:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:49:06 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
XGID=-AB-BaC-C--BcBb--b-babb---:1:-1:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O | +---+
| X O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X X |
| O X X | | X O X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 103 O: 128 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 61
---I'd make the 5 point. This is a position with gammon possibilities that go up with the hit, and even if our blot is hit, we still have a really strong game.
Tim Chow
BobDo you have an estimate for how much our gammon chances go up when we make the 5pt? How about how many more gammons we lose? Then the last piece of the puzzle would be how many more single games do we win by playing the quiet 8/1 while ahead 30+ pips
StickIf I knew how to make those estimates, I would post them.
:-)
Bob
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:28:00 PM UTC-4, Robert Zimmerman wrote:pips in the race? (there's still another sliver puzzle piece that has to do with the cube but we're just going to ignore it for all the tents and all the porpoises)
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:58:20 PM UTC-4, Stick Rice wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:40:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:49:06 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
XGID=-AB-BaC-C--BcBb--b-babb---:1:-1:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O | +---+
| X O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X X |
| O X X | | X O X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 103 O: 128 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 61
---I'd make the 5 point. This is a position with gammon possibilities that go up with the hit, and even if our blot is hit, we still have a really strong game.
Tim Chow
BobDo you have an estimate for how much our gammon chances go up when we make the 5pt? How about how many more gammons we lose? Then the last piece of the puzzle would be how many more single games do we win by playing the quiet 8/1 while ahead 30+
StickIf I knew how to make those estimates, I would post them.
:-)
BobIt's hard to get better at something if you don't attempt to do it at all.
Stick
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 10:10:37 PM UTC-4, Stick Rice wrote:pips in the race? (there's still another sliver puzzle piece that has to do with the cube but we're just going to ignore it for all the tents and all the porpoises)
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:28:00 PM UTC-4, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:58:20 PM UTC-4, Stick Rice wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:40:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:49:06 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
XGID=-AB-BaC-C--BcBb--b-babb---:1:-1:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O | +---+
| X O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X X |
| O X X | | X O X X X | +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 103 O: 128 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 61
---I'd make the 5 point. This is a position with gammon possibilities that go up with the hit, and even if our blot is hit, we still have a really strong game.
Tim Chow
BobDo you have an estimate for how much our gammon chances go up when we make the 5pt? How about how many more gammons we lose? Then the last piece of the puzzle would be how many more single games do we win by playing the quiet 8/1 while ahead 30+
StickIf I knew how to make those estimates, I would post them.
:-)
BobIt's hard to get better at something if you don't attempt to do it at all.
StickMust we always air our dirty laundry to improve?
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 7:40:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Zimmerman wrote:in the race? (there's still another sliver puzzle piece that has to do with the cube but we're just going to ignore it for all the tents and all the porpoises)
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:49:06 AM UTC-4, Timothy Chow wrote:
XGID=-AB-BaC-C--BcBb--b-babb---:1:-1:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O O O O | +---+
| X O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X X |
| O X X | | X O X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 103 O: 128 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 61
---I'd make the 5 point. This is a position with gammon possibilities that go up with the hit, and even if our blot is hit, we still have a really strong game.
Tim Chow
BobDo you have an estimate for how much our gammon chances go up when we make the 5pt? How about how many more gammons we lose? Then the last piece of the puzzle would be how many more single games do we win by playing the quiet 8/1 while ahead 30+ pips
Probably, yes. An uncanny number of the world's best mathematicians
(and backgammon may be similar) are people who are absolutely immune
to embarrassment. No matter how inappropriate or stupid their behaviour is, they don't experience embarrassment when their errors are pointed out to them.
Paul
I honestly don't know how to weigh gammons against wins in this position. No clue, but I can imagine that some brilliant mind with an amazing memory (Einstein said something like, "Genius is 1% talent and 99% hard work". I'm no Einstein, but I'm goingto go out on a limb and say Einstein got it wrong. Genius is some portion talent, some hard work, and somewhere around 10-75% memory. A stone took memory for granted.), armed with reference positions, can turn it into a rudimentary math problem.
I used to believe, for several years, that the saying was "for all intensive purposes."
Googling shows that this is in fact quite a common error.
On 3/13/2023 5:13 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
I used to believe, for several years, that the saying was "for all intensive purposes."If you search for the "eggcorn database," you can find many other
Googling shows that this is in fact quite a common error.
analogous errors.
---
Tim Chow
On 3/13/2023 11:11 PM, Robert Zimmerman wrote:going to go out on a limb and say Einstein got it wrong. Genius is some portion talent, some hard work, and somewhere around 10-75% memory. A stone took memory for granted.), armed with reference positions, can turn it into a rudimentary math problem.
I honestly don't know how to weigh gammons against wins in this position. No clue, but I can imagine that some brilliant mind with an amazing memory (Einstein said something like, "Genius is 1% talent and 99% hard work". I'm no Einstein, but I'm
Not that it matters, but that quote is from Edison and not Einstein.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/12/14/genius-ratio/
Weighing wins against gammons is a difficult skill, but I think it's
worth trying to acquire because it comes up so often and because I
think it's possible to make tangible improvement. (By contrast, to
refer again to another recent conversation, I don't think that it's
a productive use of time to try to master the fine line between
doubling and redoubling in money-game positions with contact.) Still,
in this particular position, I would not have been able to make such
a quantitative assessment. What I hope to take away from the position
is a more refined qualitative sense of safe-versus-bold criteria---the
blot on O's 5pt isn't as much of a weakness as I thought it was.
By the way, Stick is known for saying that you should "just make the
DMP play" and not bother trying to calculate wins versus gammons. This
might appear to contradict his comments in the current thread, but Stick never contradicts himself. If you think he does, it's because you don't understand.
Not that it matters, but that quote is from Edison and not Einstein.
Not that it matters, but that quote is from Edison and not Einstein.
It matters some. That misattribution is all over the internet.
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 6:18:49 PM UTC, Robert Zimmerman wrote:
Not that it matters, but that quote is from Edison and not Einstein.
It matters some. That misattribution is all over the internet.The whole point of newsgroups is that things matter only if they don't matter, and vice versa.
Paul
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 1:49:54 PM UTC, Timothy Chow wrote:
By the way, Stick is known for saying that you should "just make the
DMP play" and not bother trying to calculate wins versus gammons. This
might appear to contradict his comments in the current thread, but Stick
never contradicts himself. If you think he does, it's because you don't
understand.
I don't interpret Stick that way.
No pro, when talking seriously, would ever encourage players to
ignore key aspects of positions such as win/gammon ratios.
It's a very easy task to estimate gammons, don't do it. Make the dmp
play and get on with life. Unless there's a monstrous swing on gammons
that comes out and slaps you upside the head ... dmp play,
#simplegame.
On 3/14/2023 10:58 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 1:49:54 PM UTC, Timothy Chow wrote:
By the way, Stick is known for saying that you should "just make the
DMP play" and not bother trying to calculate wins versus gammons. This
might appear to contradict his comments in the current thread, but Stick >> never contradicts himself. If you think he does, it's because you don't >> understand.
I don't interpret Stick that way.Here's one quote:
No pro, when talking seriously, would ever encourage players to
ignore key aspects of positions such as win/gammon ratios.
It's a very easy task to estimate gammons, don't do it. Make the dmp
play and get on with life. Unless there's a monstrous swing on gammons that comes out and slaps you upside the head ... dmp play,
#simplegame.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/qekE9bJBk1k/m/2ROHeBYMCQAJ
But you're right, when he says, "It's a very easy task to estimate
gammons, don't do it," he doesn't mean what it sounds like. He
just means that you shouldn't bother to estimate gammons in positions
where it's *obvious* that the gammons aren't going to pull you away
from the DMP play. But when gammons obviously matter, then you should obviously pay attention to them. It's all obvious, #simplegame.
---
Tim Chow
There are so many flaws in what you're saying you really had me debating with myself if I was going to waste the time to answer at all or not. First, if you're going to quote an adage I like to use out of context at least toss in the generallyaccepted details that come with it. Second, of course we need to practice estimating gammons because the rule is meant for normal match scores and there will be plenty of not so normal times it comes up that this skill will be useful and we won't be
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 297 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 17:15:14 |
| Calls: | 6,667 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 12,216 |
| Messages: | 5,336,854 |