• Live cube take point

    From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 16 22:38:56 2023
    Stick has admitted that he is either unwilling or unable to
    write a dissertation explaining the "live cube take point"
    and why it is useful. So let me step in and write that
    dissertation for him. I'll explain some of the history behind
    the term, what various people have meant by it, why it is
    useful, how to use it, and also what its limitations are. At
    the very end, I'll explain my objections, and how to address
    those objections.

    In what follows, I'll ignore gammons and backgammons. They
    create complications that are best ignored initially.

    At first glance, the concept of a "take point" seems simple
    enough. Let P be my equity if I pass, let L be my equity if
    I take and lose, and let W be my equity if I take and win.
    Then the take point---or more precisely what people call the
    "raw" or "dead cube" take point---is defined by

    T = (P - L)/(W - L)

    For example, for money with a centered cube, P = -1, L = -2,
    and W = +2. So T = (-1 - (-2))/(+2 - (-2)) = 1/4, giving us
    the familiar 25% take point value. This means that I should
    take if I win more than 25% and pass if I win less than 25%.
    To make sure we understand this, let's not just quote the
    formula for T; let's derive it. Let's say that my winning
    chances are w, so that my losing chances are 1-w. Then if
    I take, my equity is

    w*W + (1-w)*L

    If I pass, then my equity is P. So to justify taking, I need
    the following to be true:

    w*W + (1-w)*L > P

    But now we can solve for w:

    w*(W - L) + L > P

    Rearranging gives us w > (P - L)/(W - L) = T, the take point.
    Note that this derivation applies equally well to a match as
    to a money game.

    Simple enough, but of course the big flaw in this argument is
    that it ignores the fact that the taker's ability to recube
    to 4, not to mention further recubes to even higher values.
    How do we take this into account?

    The earliest attempts to analyze the effect of recubes on the
    take point was the so-called "continuous cube model." In order
    to make the problem more mathematically tractable, we pretend
    that the equity fluctuates randomly and continuously over the
    course of a game, and that the cube can reach arbitrarily high
    values. I'll skip the mathematical analysis here, but it turns
    out that under these simplifying assumptions, you can justify
    taking with 20% winning chances in a money game---significantly
    lower than 25%. If you want more details, see this article:

    https://bkgm.com/articles/KeelerSpencer/OptimalDoublingInBackgammon/

    Clearly, redoubling is an important thing to take into account,
    at least in some positions, and so we need some terminology to
    make it clear whether we're talking about the 25% figure or the
    20% figure. One natural possibility is to refer to 25% as the
    "dead cube take point" and the 20% as the "live cube take point."
    If life really were this simple, then we would simply use 20% as
    the take point in almost all positions, with the exception that
    in a last-roll position (where you really can't redouble because
    the game will be over), we would use 25% as the take point.

    Unfortunately, matters are not quite so simple. The continuous
    model is an oversimplification, and it can diverge from practical
    play significantly. Equities change in discrete jumps, sometimes
    quite large, causing you to overshoot and "lose your market."
    This means that in practice, you're often going to double well
    below the 80% threshold predicted by the continuous model. This
    divergence between reality and the continuous idealization is
    sometimes referred to informally as "cube efficiency." The idea
    is that if your (re)double has a D/T equity of 1.0 (EMG, i.e.,
    normalized to the cube value), then your cube is "perfectly
    efficient" and conforms closely to the continuous idealization.
    The more the D/T equity differs from 1.0, the more "inefficient"
    your (re)double is.

    Because of these "inefficiencies," we can't simply say that in a
    money game, we should use 20% as the take point (except in a
    last-roll position). If we did do that, then in practice we
    would be taking a significant number of cubes that we should be
    passing. Some kind of further adjustment is needed. But what
    adjustment should we make?

    This is the point at which things get complicated. Opinions
    diverge as to what sort of adjustments to make. If you set
    up XG with a non-contact position with no gammons possible, then
    you'll find it reports a "live cube take point" of 20% for an
    unlimited game. This is nominally consistent with the documentation,
    which says that the live cube take point assumes "perfect redouble
    efficiency." (If you set up a position where gammons are possible,
    then it will give you a different live cube take point, which is "gammon-adjusted." I won't explain further because I'm ignoring
    gammons, but notice that this simply reinforces my point that the
    term "live cube take point" by itself is ambiguous---do you mean "gammon-adjusted" or not?) In effect, XG is telling you to figure
    out your own adjustment to make for "cube inefficiency." But it
    doesn't say so explicitly, so you can be left scratching your head,
    wondering why your take was deemed incorrect even though your
    winning chances exceeded the "live cube take point," or even more
    confusingly, how your pass was deemed incorrect even though your
    winning chances were below the "live cube take point." How can
    the cube efficiency be better than perfect? Well, if you unwind
    all the definitions very carefully, you'll find no contradiction,
    but it's certainly very confusing for the uninitiated. "Perfect"
    recube efficiency just means that it conforms to some idealized
    model, and doesn't necessarily mean "maximum possible" recube
    efficiency. (Note, by the way, that the XG documentation never
    gives a quantitative definition of efficiency. It also does not
    explain how it computes "perfect recube efficiency" for matches,
    when arbitrarily high cube values are not possible. GNU BG does
    define efficiency, but it's not the same as what many others mean
    by that term.)

    XG's choice is not the only one. In Dirk Schiemann's book, "The
    Theory of Backgammon," he carefully defines the "live cube take
    point" by considering long races that are at the take/pass
    borderline, and examining the winning chances of the underdog.
    Of course, these winning chances vary slightly from one position
    to another, but they don't vary too much; they hover close to
    21.5%. So for Schiemann, the "live cube take point" for money
    is 21.5%, in contrast to XG's 20%. There's certainly a plausible
    rationale for this figure; rather than appealing to some fictional
    idealized model of backgammon, he takes actual data from real
    positions, and examines what the winning threshold has to be for
    a take in a familiar reference position (i.e., a long race). But,
    you need to be aware of the different definitions or you'll be
    confused by apparent inconsistencies.

    Whichever of the above definitions you use, there is an important
    caveat you have to be aware of: now that we're wading into the
    complexities of actual backgammon play, the "live cube take point"
    usually *cannot* be simply taken to be a threshold above which
    your winning chances permit you to take. You still have to take
    into account how much "recube vig" you have in your current position.
    In Schiemann's case, he's made long races his reference position,
    so when judging recube vig, you need to be judging how much more
    (or less) recube vig you have in your current position *relative to*
    a long race. With XG's definition, the reference point is some kind
    of idealized model, which typically yields a live cube take point
    lower than Schiemann's, so you have to adjust accordingly.

    We have by no means exhausted the possibilities. John O'Hagan has
    advocated for something he calls the "true" take point.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/backgammonstrategy/posts/2872916849643635/

    What he's doing here, I believe, is estimating how much recube vig
    one "typically" has, by interpolating between XG's live cube take
    point and the dead cube take point. I'm not sure how exactly his
    "true" take point compares with Schiemann's live cube take point.

    If things are still not confusing enough, the terms "live" and "dead"
    cube take point are sometimes used even at scores where estimating
    recube vig makes no sense. If you double while leading 2-away, or
    redouble to 4 while leading 3-away or 4-away, and so on, then your
    opponent has an automatic redouble, and so it really makes no sense
    to talk about "live" versus "dead" (except in exceptionally strange
    positions like the one Paul mentioned, where you refrain from your auto-redouble because you're too good). The cube action is trivial
    so you can simply figure out whether your winning chances exceed
    the relevant threshold. Talking about live versus dead in such
    situations makes no sense (to me anyway; Stick still hasn't explicitly
    agreed with me on this point, so maybe he has some arcane justification
    for it).

    Okay, you say, but what's the bottom line? Here are the conclusions
    that I would draw.

    - One certainly needs to understand that, at most match scores, the
    dead cube take point is not sufficient for deciding whether to take,
    even if you know your winning chances and no gammons are possible.

    - At such match scores, where the cube action is not trivial, it is
    useful to have some other reference point besides the dead cube take
    point, to help you make take decisions---whether you use XG's "live
    cube take point" or Schiemann's "live cube take point" or O'Hagan's
    "true take point" or yet another flavor of the day. As long as you
    know what reference point you're using and what it means, the choice
    probably doesn't matter much.

    - I think it is a bad idea to speak of the "live cube take point" as
    if it is a definite thing. As we've seen above, there are different definitions floating around, and often it's not even clear what the
    precise definition is. Furthermore, the terminology has a rather
    strong connotation that it's a threshold above which your winning
    chances permit you to take---yet that's not what the "live cube take
    point" means, either according to XG or according to Schiemann
    (except in long races for Schiemann). So the terminology is very
    confusing and even actively misleading (especially if it's used at a
    score where the cube action is trivial because of an auto-recube).

    - These concerns could be largely addressed if a clear definition of
    the term were agreed upon. Given XG's popularity, its definition is
    the frontrunner, but the big disadvantage is that the definition is
    not stated in the documentation. As things stand, it's just some kind
    of mysterious black magic. I'd prefer Schiemann's definition
    myself, but I don't know what the chances are for his definition to
    prevail. And even if his definition were standardized, I'd still be
    a bit unhappy that the term itself is so confusing and misleading, but
    this wouldn't be the first time that we're stuck with inferior
    terminology.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Fri Feb 17 15:32:20 2023
    On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 10:39:01 PM UTC-5, Timothy Chow wrote:
    Stick has admitted that he is either unwilling or unable to
    write a dissertation explaining the "live cube take point"
    and why it is useful. So let me step in and write that
    dissertation for him. I'll explain some of the history behind
    the term, what various people have meant by it, why it is
    useful, how to use it, and also what its limitations are. At
    the very end, I'll explain my objections, and how to address
    those objections.

    In what follows, I'll ignore gammons and backgammons. They
    create complications that are best ignored initially.

    At first glance, the concept of a "take point" seems simple
    enough. Let P be my equity if I pass, let L be my equity if
    I take and lose, and let W be my equity if I take and win.
    Then the take point---or more precisely what people call the
    "raw" or "dead cube" take point---is defined by

    T = (P - L)/(W - L)

    For example, for money with a centered cube, P = -1, L = -2,
    and W = +2. So T = (-1 - (-2))/(+2 - (-2)) = 1/4, giving us
    the familiar 25% take point value. This means that I should
    take if I win more than 25% and pass if I win less than 25%.
    To make sure we understand this, let's not just quote the
    formula for T; let's derive it. Let's say that my winning
    chances are w, so that my losing chances are 1-w. Then if
    I take, my equity is

    w*W + (1-w)*L

    If I pass, then my equity is P. So to justify taking, I need
    the following to be true:

    w*W + (1-w)*L > P

    But now we can solve for w:

    w*(W - L) + L > P

    Rearranging gives us w > (P - L)/(W - L) = T, the take point.
    Note that this derivation applies equally well to a match as
    to a money game.

    Simple enough, but of course the big flaw in this argument is
    that it ignores the fact that the taker's ability to recube
    to 4, not to mention further recubes to even higher values.
    How do we take this into account?

    The earliest attempts to analyze the effect of recubes on the
    take point was the so-called "continuous cube model." In order
    to make the problem more mathematically tractable, we pretend
    that the equity fluctuates randomly and continuously over the
    course of a game, and that the cube can reach arbitrarily high
    values. I'll skip the mathematical analysis here, but it turns
    out that under these simplifying assumptions, you can justify
    taking with 20% winning chances in a money game---significantly
    lower than 25%. If you want more details, see this article:

    https://bkgm.com/articles/KeelerSpencer/OptimalDoublingInBackgammon/

    Clearly, redoubling is an important thing to take into account,
    at least in some positions, and so we need some terminology to
    make it clear whether we're talking about the 25% figure or the
    20% figure. One natural possibility is to refer to 25% as the
    "dead cube take point" and the 20% as the "live cube take point."
    If life really were this simple, then we would simply use 20% as
    the take point in almost all positions, with the exception that
    in a last-roll position (where you really can't redouble because
    the game will be over), we would use 25% as the take point.

    Unfortunately, matters are not quite so simple. The continuous
    model is an oversimplification, and it can diverge from practical
    play significantly. Equities change in discrete jumps, sometimes
    quite large, causing you to overshoot and "lose your market."
    This means that in practice, you're often going to double well
    below the 80% threshold predicted by the continuous model. This
    divergence between reality and the continuous idealization is
    sometimes referred to informally as "cube efficiency." The idea
    is that if your (re)double has a D/T equity of 1.0 (EMG, i.e.,
    normalized to the cube value), then your cube is "perfectly
    efficient" and conforms closely to the continuous idealization.
    The more the D/T equity differs from 1.0, the more "inefficient"
    your (re)double is.

    Because of these "inefficiencies," we can't simply say that in a
    money game, we should use 20% as the take point (except in a
    last-roll position). If we did do that, then in practice we
    would be taking a significant number of cubes that we should be
    passing. Some kind of further adjustment is needed. But what
    adjustment should we make?

    This is the point at which things get complicated. Opinions
    diverge as to what sort of adjustments to make. If you set
    up XG with a non-contact position with no gammons possible, then
    you'll find it reports a "live cube take point" of 20% for an
    unlimited game. This is nominally consistent with the documentation,
    which says that the live cube take point assumes "perfect redouble efficiency." (If you set up a position where gammons are possible,
    then it will give you a different live cube take point, which is "gammon-adjusted." I won't explain further because I'm ignoring
    gammons, but notice that this simply reinforces my point that the
    term "live cube take point" by itself is ambiguous---do you mean "gammon-adjusted" or not?) In effect, XG is telling you to figure
    out your own adjustment to make for "cube inefficiency." But it
    doesn't say so explicitly, so you can be left scratching your head,
    wondering why your take was deemed incorrect even though your
    winning chances exceeded the "live cube take point," or even more confusingly, how your pass was deemed incorrect even though your
    winning chances were below the "live cube take point." How can
    the cube efficiency be better than perfect? Well, if you unwind
    all the definitions very carefully, you'll find no contradiction,
    but it's certainly very confusing for the uninitiated. "Perfect"
    recube efficiency just means that it conforms to some idealized
    model, and doesn't necessarily mean "maximum possible" recube
    efficiency. (Note, by the way, that the XG documentation never
    gives a quantitative definition of efficiency. It also does not
    explain how it computes "perfect recube efficiency" for matches,
    when arbitrarily high cube values are not possible. GNU BG does
    define efficiency, but it's not the same as what many others mean
    by that term.)

    XG's choice is not the only one. In Dirk Schiemann's book, "The
    Theory of Backgammon," he carefully defines the "live cube take
    point" by considering long races that are at the take/pass
    borderline, and examining the winning chances of the underdog.
    Of course, these winning chances vary slightly from one position
    to another, but they don't vary too much; they hover close to
    21.5%. So for Schiemann, the "live cube take point" for money
    is 21.5%, in contrast to XG's 20%. There's certainly a plausible
    rationale for this figure; rather than appealing to some fictional
    idealized model of backgammon, he takes actual data from real
    positions, and examines what the winning threshold has to be for
    a take in a familiar reference position (i.e., a long race). But,
    you need to be aware of the different definitions or you'll be
    confused by apparent inconsistencies.

    Whichever of the above definitions you use, there is an important
    caveat you have to be aware of: now that we're wading into the
    complexities of actual backgammon play, the "live cube take point"
    usually *cannot* be simply taken to be a threshold above which
    your winning chances permit you to take. You still have to take
    into account how much "recube vig" you have in your current position.
    In Schiemann's case, he's made long races his reference position,
    so when judging recube vig, you need to be judging how much more
    (or less) recube vig you have in your current position *relative to*
    a long race. With XG's definition, the reference point is some kind
    of idealized model, which typically yields a live cube take point
    lower than Schiemann's, so you have to adjust accordingly.

    We have by no means exhausted the possibilities. John O'Hagan has
    advocated for something he calls the "true" take point.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/backgammonstrategy/posts/2872916849643635/

    What he's doing here, I believe, is estimating how much recube vig
    one "typically" has, by interpolating between XG's live cube take
    point and the dead cube take point. I'm not sure how exactly his
    "true" take point compares with Schiemann's live cube take point.

    If things are still not confusing enough, the terms "live" and "dead"
    cube take point are sometimes used even at scores where estimating
    recube vig makes no sense. If you double while leading 2-away, or
    redouble to 4 while leading 3-away or 4-away, and so on, then your
    opponent has an automatic redouble, and so it really makes no sense
    to talk about "live" versus "dead" (except in exceptionally strange
    positions like the one Paul mentioned, where you refrain from your auto-redouble because you're too good). The cube action is trivial
    so you can simply figure out whether your winning chances exceed
    the relevant threshold. Talking about live versus dead in such
    situations makes no sense (to me anyway; Stick still hasn't explicitly
    agreed with me on this point, so maybe he has some arcane justification
    for it).

    Okay, you say, but what's the bottom line? Here are the conclusions
    that I would draw.

    - One certainly needs to understand that, at most match scores, the
    dead cube take point is not sufficient for deciding whether to take,
    even if you know your winning chances and no gammons are possible.

    - At such match scores, where the cube action is not trivial, it is
    useful to have some other reference point besides the dead cube take
    point, to help you make take decisions---whether you use XG's "live
    cube take point" or Schiemann's "live cube take point" or O'Hagan's
    "true take point" or yet another flavor of the day. As long as you
    know what reference point you're using and what it means, the choice
    probably doesn't matter much.

    - I think it is a bad idea to speak of the "live cube take point" as
    if it is a definite thing. As we've seen above, there are different definitions floating around, and often it's not even clear what the
    precise definition is. Furthermore, the terminology has a rather
    strong connotation that it's a threshold above which your winning
    chances permit you to take---yet that's not what the "live cube take
    point" means, either according to XG or according to Schiemann
    (except in long races for Schiemann). So the terminology is very
    confusing and even actively misleading (especially if it's used at a
    score where the cube action is trivial because of an auto-recube).

    - These concerns could be largely addressed if a clear definition of
    the term were agreed upon. Given XG's popularity, its definition is
    the frontrunner, but the big disadvantage is that the definition is
    not stated in the documentation. As things stand, it's just some kind
    of mysterious black magic. I'd prefer Schiemann's definition
    myself, but I don't know what the chances are for his definition to
    prevail. And even if his definition were standardized, I'd still be
    a bit unhappy that the term itself is so confusing and misleading, but
    this wouldn't be the first time that we're stuck with inferior
    terminology.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    I believe even though I speed read that one of the key things you're missing are positions like this:
    XGID=-BBBBBC-----a---AA-bbbbcc-:0:0:1:00:2:0:0:4:10

    Stick

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to Stick Rice on Mon Feb 20 10:37:25 2023
    On 2/17/2023 6:32 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
    I believe even though I speed read that one of the key things you're missing are positions like this:
    XGID=-BBBBBC-----a---AA-bbbbcc-:0:0:1:00:2:0:0:4:10

    XGID=-BBBBBC-----a---AA-bbbbcc-:0:0:1:00:2:0:0:4:10

    Score is X:2 O:0 4 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X X | | O O O O O O |
    | | | O O O O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X X X |
    | O | | X X X X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 81 O: 58 X-O: 2-0/4
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    In other words, effectively a last-roll position. It's true
    that I didn't explicitly mention positions that are effectively
    last-roll positions rather than literally last-roll positions,
    but that doesn't affect the main point.

    The main point is that at most match scores, there is certainly
    some value in having a reference point relative to which you can
    make adjustments based on how much recube vig you think you have,
    but that this approach doesn't make sense for scores where there
    is an automatic redouble. At such scores, you just have to think
    through the immediate cube action and assess your winning chances
    in each scenario.

    For others who are following along, Stick's point is that O cannot
    simply reason that because her winning chances exceed what XG calls
    her "live cube take point" she must therefore have a take. If X
    doubles and rolls poorly, then he's going to pass O's redouble.
    But the way to understand such positions is to split into two cases
    (hits versus non-hits; even 66 can be treated as a pass for the
    purposes of OTB calculation) and assess your match equity in each
    case. If you try to mess around with "live cube" versus "dead cube"
    takepoints in such situations, then the most likely outcome is that
    you'll just confuse yourself.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 21 10:03:24 2023
    On 2/20/2023 10:37 AM, I wrote:

    XGID=-BBBBBC-----a---AA-bbbbcc-:0:0:1:00:2:0:0:4:10

    Score is X:2 O:0 4 pt.(s) match.
     +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
     |          X  X    |   | O  O  O  O  O  O |
     |                  |   | O  O  O  O  O  O |
     |                  |   |             O  O |
     |                  |   |                  |
     |                  |   |                  |
     |                  |BAR|                  |
     |                  |   |                  |
     |                  |   |                  |
     |                  |   | X                |
     |                  |   | X  X  X  X  X  X |
     | O                |   | X  X  X  X  X  X |
     +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count  X: 81  O: 58 X-O: 2-0/4
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    [...]
    But the way to understand such positions is to split into two cases
    (hits versus non-hits; even 66 can be treated as a pass for the
    purposes of OTB calculation) and assess your match equity in each
    case.  If you try to mess around with "live cube" versus "dead cube" takepoints in such situations, then the most likely outcome is that
    you'll just confuse yourself.

    Just to be completely explicit, here's how one might try to assess
    this take decision OTB. For simplicity let's assume gammons are
    negligible. X has 9/36 rolls that miss; let's assume RD/P for all
    of these, putting the score at 2-away/2-away. So this gives O
    12.5% match-winning chances. If O passes then she'll be trailing
    4-away Crawford, with about 18.5% MWC. That means that O needs to
    decide whether, out of the 27/36 games where she gets hit, she can
    muster up an additional 6% MWC, or in other words, whether her
    game-winning chances after getting hit are at least 8%. It's pretty
    clear that she doesn't, but even if she misjudges that, the point
    is that in this entire calculation, there was no need to talk about
    the "live cube take point" or the "dead cube take point."

    Now, there is a way that one could try to analyze this decision in
    terms of "live cube take point" and "dead cube take point." One
    could say that normally the "live cube take point" tells you the
    winning chances you need to take, but here, 1/4 of the time you have
    a "dead cube" (the RD/P scenarios), so you need to interpolate between
    the "live cube take point" and the "dead cube take point" to get your
    actual take point. But to do things this way, you have to

    1. remember the "dead cube take point";
    2. decide how to interpolate;
    3. assess your winning chances (at DMP, I guess?) in the position.

    This is far more confusing and error-prone than the simpler procedure
    which ignores all the "live cube take point" mumbo-jumbo, and requires
    you only to judge that if you're hit then you have much less than 8% game-winning chances.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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