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  • 5pt problems never get old

    From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 17 09:37:55 2023
    For me they don't, anyway. Here's the first of several problems
    where making the 5pt is an option.

    XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X O |
    | O X X X | | X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ah....Clem@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Tue Jan 17 10:34:51 2023
    On 1/17/2023 9:37 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
    For me they don't, anyway.  Here's the first of several problems
    where making the 5pt is an option.

    XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
     +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
     | X        O  O    |   | O              X |
     | X        O  O    |   | O              X |
     | X           O    |   | O                |
     | X                |   | O                |
     |                  |   | O                |
     |                  |BAR|                  |
     |                  |   | X                |
     |                  |   | X                |
     | O                |   | X                |
     | O           X    |   | X              O |
     | O  X        X  X |   | X              O |
     +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count  X: 164  O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61

    Normally when faced with making either the 5 or 7 points, the five point
    is the right idea. Since it makes the more valuable point and usually
    also unstacks the six it's clearly better.

    But here it offers up 17 shots, letting O escape with tempo, so I'll opt
    for making the bar point. Then, splitting should be more useful than 11/10.

    24/23 13/7.

    --
    Ah....Clem
    The future is fun, the future is fair.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Benjamin Friesen@21:1/5 to ah....Clem on Tue Jan 17 14:44:16 2023
    On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 10:34:52 AM UTC-5, ah....Clem wrote:
    On 1/17/2023 9:37 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
    For me they don't, anyway. Here's the first of several problems
    where making the 5pt is an option.

    XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X O |
    | O X X X | | X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61
    Normally when faced with making either the 5 or 7 points, the five point
    is the right idea. Since it makes the more valuable point and usually
    also unstacks the six it's clearly better.

    But here it offers up 17 shots, letting O escape with tempo, so I'll opt
    for making the bar point. Then, splitting should be more useful than 11/10.

    24/23 13/7.

    --
    Ah....Clem
    The future is fun, the future is fair.

    After making the bar with the six did you consider slotting the five point?

    Stick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Benjamin Friesen@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Tue Jan 17 14:43:25 2023
    On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 9:37:57 AM UTC-5, Tim Chow wrote:
    For me they don't, anyway. Here's the first of several problems
    where making the 5pt is an option.

    XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X O |
    | O X X X | | X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61

    ---
    Tim Chow

    64S-21H-41P-61?

    Stick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ah....Clem@21:1/5 to Benjamin Friesen on Wed Jan 18 16:47:19 2023
    On 1/17/2023 5:44 PM, Benjamin Friesen wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 10:34:52 AM UTC-5, ah....Clem wrote:
    On 1/17/2023 9:37 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
    For me they don't, anyway. Here's the first of several problems
    where making the 5pt is an option.

    XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X O |
    | O X X X | | X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61
    Normally when faced with making either the 5 or 7 points, the five point
    is the right idea. Since it makes the more valuable point and usually
    also unstacks the six it's clearly better.

    But here it offers up 17 shots, letting O escape with tempo, so I'll opt
    for making the bar point. Then, splitting should be more useful than 11/10. >>
    24/23 13/7.

    --

    After making the bar with the six did you consider slotting the five point?


    I did not. I should have. Not sure it's better than splitting though.

    --
    Ah....Clem
    The future is fun, the future is fair.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MK@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Thu Jan 19 01:57:32 2023
    On January 17, 2023 at 7:37:57 AM UTC-7, Tim Chow wrote:

    For me they don't, anyway.

    Good clarification. Other bozos can't
    get enough of 5pt problems either...

    Keep on jacking off your ilks... :)

    MK

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 19 09:46:00 2023
    XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X O |
    | O X X X | | X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61

    Making the 5pt isn't a huge blunder here, according to XG, but XG
    does favor making the bar point (and then slotting the 5pt rather
    than splitting, aiming to prime rather than race). I still find
    this surprising, but I think the logic is that 13/7 6/5 makes it
    easier to extend X's prime (if O misses, of course) than 11/5 6/5.
    See the variant below.

    1. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/5 eq:+0.073
    Player: 52.12% (G:15.21% B:0.71%)
    Opponent: 47.88% (G:15.12% B:1.07%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.065..+0.082) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ 11/5 6/5 eq:+0.030 (-0.043)
    Player: 50.62% (G:15.90% B:0.79%)
    Opponent: 49.38% (G:14.94% B:0.89%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.022..+0.038) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    -------
    Variant
    -------

    XGID=-b----EAC--AcC--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X O |
    | O X X X | | X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 159 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61

    1. Rollout¹ 11/5 6/5 eq:+0.102
    Player: 51.96% (G:17.03% B:0.88%)
    Opponent: 48.04% (G:13.95% B:0.84%)
    Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.091..+0.113) - [99.8%]

    2. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/5 eq:+0.079 (-0.023)
    Player: 52.25% (G:16.23% B:0.80%)
    Opponent: 47.75% (G:14.94% B:1.06%)
    Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.068..+0.090) - [0.2%]

    ¹ 2650 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Benjamin Friesen@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Thu Jan 19 13:39:08 2023
    On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 9:46:02 AM UTC-5, Tim Chow wrote:
    XGID=-b----EAB--AcD--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X O |
    | O X X X | | X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 164 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61
    Making the 5pt isn't a huge blunder here, according to XG, but XG
    does favor making the bar point (and then slotting the 5pt rather
    than splitting, aiming to prime rather than race). I still find
    this surprising, but I think the logic is that 13/7 6/5 makes it
    easier to extend X's prime (if O misses, of course) than 11/5 6/5.
    See the variant below.

    1. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/5 eq:+0.073
    Player: 52.12% (G:15.21% B:0.71%)
    Opponent: 47.88% (G:15.12% B:1.07%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.065..+0.082) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ 11/5 6/5 eq:+0.030 (-0.043)
    Player: 50.62% (G:15.90% B:0.79%)
    Opponent: 49.38% (G:14.94% B:0.89%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.022..+0.038) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    -------
    Variant
    -------

    XGID=-b----EAC--AcC--bc-e----B-:0:0:1:61:0:0:0:0:10
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O X | | X |
    | O X | | X O |
    | O X X X | | X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 159 O: 159 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 61
    1. Rollout¹ 11/5 6/5 eq:+0.102
    Player: 51.96% (G:17.03% B:0.88%)
    Opponent: 48.04% (G:13.95% B:0.84%)
    Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.091..+0.113) - [99.8%]

    2. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/5 eq:+0.079 (-0.023)
    Player: 52.25% (G:16.23% B:0.80%)
    Opponent: 47.75% (G:14.94% B:1.06%)
    Confidence: ±0.011 (+0.068..+0.090) - [0.2%]

    ¹ 2650 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow

    The opponent not only misses our slotted 5pt more often 7pt due to the number of shots it leaves but the real root of it is how well fours play for our opponent v. how well his sixes play.

    Stick

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)