• Jump out or hit?

    From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 19 21:16:50 2021
    XGID=--a-CBCB----bB---d-cbcB--A:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | O | | O O |
    | O | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 149 O: 121 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 43

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From MK@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 20 01:42:06 2021
    On October 19, 2021 at 7:16:51 PM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

    How come you senile idiot never give a third option like
    none of the above? Is it that you can only count to two..? ;)

    MK

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 20 21:47:13 2021
    On 10/20/2021 4:42 AM, MK wrote:
    On October 19, 2021 at 7:16:51 PM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

    How come you senile idiot never give a third option like
    none of the above? Is it that you can only count to two..? ;)

    There are three types of backgammon players: those that can
    count, and those that can't.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From MK@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Fri Oct 22 01:48:40 2021
    On October 20, 2021 at 7:47:16 PM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

    On 10/20/2021 4:42 AM, MK wrote:

    On October 19, 2021 at 7:16:51 PM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

    How come you senile idiot never give a third option like
    none of the above? Is it that you can only count to two..? ;)

    There are three types of backgammon players: those that
    can count, and those that can't.

    Backgammon players?
    I thought they were mathematicians... ;)

    BTW: it's "those who can count", not "those that can count";
    big red ignorant idiot!

    MK

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 22 22:11:43 2021
    On 10/22/2021 4:48 AM, MK wrote:

    BTW: it's "those who can count", not "those that can count";
    big red ignorant idiot!

    Up with which I will not put!

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From MK@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Fri Oct 22 20:18:41 2021
    On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 8:11:45 PM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

    On 10/22/2021 4:48 AM, MK wrote:

    BTW: it's "those who can count", not "those that can count";
    big red ignorant idiot!

    Up with which I will not put!

    But up butt can shove it your you... ;)

    MK

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 23 22:12:59 2021
    On 10/22/2021 11:18 PM, MK wrote:
    On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 8:11:45 PM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

    On 10/22/2021 4:48 AM, MK wrote:

    BTW: it's "those who can count", not "those that can count";
    big red ignorant idiot!

    Up with which I will not put!

    But up butt can shove it your you... ;)

    Did you try Googling "up with which I will not put"?

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From ah...Clem@21:1/5 to Timothy Chow on Mon Oct 25 15:27:45 2021
    On 10/19/2021 9:16 PM, Timothy Chow wrote:
    XGID=--a-CBCB----bB---d-cbcB--A:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1   O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
     | X           O    |   | O  O  O  X       |
     | X           O    |   | O  O  O  X       |  |             O    |   | O     O          |  |             O    |   |                  |
     |                  | X |                  |
     |                  |BAR|                  |
     |                  |   |                  |
     |                  |   |                  |
     |                  |   | X     X          |  | O              X |   | X  X  X          |
     | O              X |   | X  X  X     O    |  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count  X: 149  O: 121 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 43


    I misplay positions like this a lot since I don't have a good mnomic to evaluate which is the better idea. I'll hit here since that's my nature
    and running out to a double shot seems like asking for it.

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 26 23:05:24 2021
    XGID=--a-CBCB----bB---d-cbcB--A:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | O | | O O |
    | O | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 149 O: 121 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 43

    I think of this as a containment position. O can jump out with a 6
    but she is not at the edge of X's prime, so hitting is not particularly attractive. Jumping out might seem risky, but O's sixes are duplicated
    to jump out and hit, and her midpoint is stripped. Putting a checker
    on the 18pt improves X's outfield coverage in case O does jump out.

    The two variants below show how the relative merits of bar/18 and 6/2*
    change when we move some spares around.

    1. Rollout¹ Bar/18 eq:-0.244
    Player: 43.42% (G:9.85% B:0.38%)
    Opponent: 56.58% (G:13.14% B:0.46%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.255..-0.232) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ Bar/22 6/2* eq:-0.350 (-0.107)
    Player: 42.09% (G:9.48% B:0.31%)
    Opponent: 57.91% (G:17.70% B:0.62%)
    Confidence: ±0.014 (-0.364..-0.337) - [0.0%]

    3. Rollout¹ Bar/22 13/9 eq:-0.446 (-0.202)
    Player: 38.29% (G:8.13% B:0.31%)
    Opponent: 61.71% (G:15.79% B:0.56%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.457..-0.434) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    ---------
    Variant 1
    ---------

    XGID=--a-BBDB----bB---d-cbcB--A:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | O | | O O |
    | O | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 121 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 43

    1. Rollout¹ Bar/18 eq:-0.272
    Player: 42.79% (G:9.49% B:0.36%)
    Opponent: 57.21% (G:13.41% B:0.44%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.284..-0.260) - [99.9%]

    2. Rollout¹ Bar/22 6/2* eq:-0.302 (-0.029)
    Player: 43.25% (G:9.69% B:0.32%)
    Opponent: 56.75% (G:17.01% B:0.64%)
    Confidence: ±0.014 (-0.315..-0.288) - [0.1%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    ---------
    Variant 2
    ---------

    XGID=--a-BBDB----cB---c-cbcB--A:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | O | | O O |
    | | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 126 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 43

    1. Rollout¹ Bar/22 6/2* eq:-0.332
    Player: 41.94% (G:10.11% B:0.29%)
    Opponent: 58.06% (G:16.07% B:0.64%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.345..-0.320) - [80.2%]

    2. Rollout¹ Bar/18 eq:-0.340 (-0.008)
    Player: 41.33% (G:9.31% B:0.31%)
    Opponent: 58.67% (G:13.20% B:0.54%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.352..-0.327) - [19.8%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Wed Oct 27 06:53:10 2021
    On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 4:05:27 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
    XGID=--a-CBCB----bB---d-cbcB--A:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | O | | O O |
    | O | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 149 O: 121 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 43
    I think of this as a containment position. O can jump out with a 6
    but she is not at the edge of X's prime, so hitting is not particularly attractive. Jumping out might seem risky, but O's sixes are duplicated
    to jump out and hit, and her midpoint is stripped. Putting a checker
    on the 18pt improves X's outfield coverage in case O does jump out.

    The two variants below show how the relative merits of bar/18 and 6/2* change when we move some spares around.

    1. Rollout¹ Bar/18 eq:-0.244
    Player: 43.42% (G:9.85% B:0.38%)
    Opponent: 56.58% (G:13.14% B:0.46%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.255..-0.232) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ Bar/22 6/2* eq:-0.350 (-0.107)
    Player: 42.09% (G:9.48% B:0.31%)
    Opponent: 57.91% (G:17.70% B:0.62%)
    Confidence: ±0.014 (-0.364..-0.337) - [0.0%]

    3. Rollout¹ Bar/22 13/9 eq:-0.446 (-0.202)
    Player: 38.29% (G:8.13% B:0.31%)
    Opponent: 61.71% (G:15.79% B:0.56%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.457..-0.434) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    ---------
    Variant 1
    ---------

    XGID=--a-BBDB----bB---d-cbcB--A:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10
    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | O | | O O |
    | O | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 121 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 43
    1. Rollout¹ Bar/18 eq:-0.272
    Player: 42.79% (G:9.49% B:0.36%)
    Opponent: 57.21% (G:13.41% B:0.44%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.284..-0.260) - [99.9%]

    2. Rollout¹ Bar/22 6/2* eq:-0.302 (-0.029)
    Player: 43.25% (G:9.69% B:0.32%)
    Opponent: 56.75% (G:17.01% B:0.64%)
    Confidence: ±0.014 (-0.315..-0.288) - [0.1%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    ---------
    Variant 2
    ---------

    XGID=--a-BBDB----cB---c-cbcB--A:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10
    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | X O | | O O O X |
    | O | | O O |
    | | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | O | | X |
    | O X | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 126 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X to play 43
    1. Rollout¹ Bar/22 6/2* eq:-0.332
    Player: 41.94% (G:10.11% B:0.29%)
    Opponent: 58.06% (G:16.07% B:0.64%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.345..-0.320) - [80.2%]

    2. Rollout¹ Bar/18 eq:-0.340 (-0.008)
    Player: 41.33% (G:9.31% B:0.31%)
    Opponent: 58.67% (G:13.20% B:0.54%)
    Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.352..-0.327) - [19.8%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    I'm pretty sure I would have answered this correctly though, without actually Walting,
    it's hard to be sure.
    One surprise to me from XG's play is how often XG recommends going to the opponent's 18 point, subjecting
    oneself to a barrage of shots. It certainly made me more willing to consider such plays OTB and having a stack of 3
    on the 22 point looks ugly.

    Paul

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 10 08:30:42 2022
    XGID=-aBBBBBAA--------c-ccBc-bA:1:-1:1:64:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O | | O O X O O | +---+
    | O | | O O X O O | | 2 |
    | O | | O O O | +---+
    | | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X X X X |
    | X X | | X X X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 122 O: 92 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 64

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 12 12:17:52 2022
    XGID=-aBBBBBAA--------c-ccBc-bA:1:-1:1:64:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O | | O O X O O | +---+
    | O | | O O X O O | | 2 |
    | O | | O O O | +---+
    | | | |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X X X X |
    | X X | | X X X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 122 O: 92 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 64

    I was a little surprised by this one because what's not to like about
    putting the opponent on the bar against a five-point board? But there
    aren't a whole lot of gammons to be won here, and after 7/1*, X does
    not have many rolls that cover the 1pt (if O misses), whereas after
    21/15, his 1's and 8's all make a six-prime, which would pretty much
    lock up the game.

    1. Rollout¹ Bar/15 eq:+0.156
    Player: 65.20% (G:7.65% B:0.21%)
    Opponent: 34.80% (G:14.12% B:0.28%)
    Confidence: ±0.005 (+0.151..+0.161) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout¹ Bar/21 7/1* eq:+0.091 (-0.065)
    Player: 62.08% (G:8.08% B:0.13%)
    Opponent: 37.92% (G:12.78% B:0.23%)
    Confidence: ±0.008 (+0.083..+0.100) - [0.0%]

    ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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