I wonder if you read Wachtel's book(s) on acepoint games.
If so, you would surely know the cube action here.
If not, I wonder why not.
One possibility is that, to be motivated to stay at a bookstore,
it needs to serve the right type of coffee. Without good quality
coffee, you're unlikely to be motivated to hang around there
long enough to find the backgammon section.

XGID=-EA----a------------------:2:1:1:00:4:4:3:0:10
X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon

Score is X:4 O:4. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| | | X |
| | | X | +---+
| | | X | | 4 |
| O | | X X | +---+
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 7 O: 18 X-O: 4-4
Cube: 4, X own cube
X on roll, cube action

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 10/21/2022 7:19 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

I wonder if you read Wachtel's book(s) on acepoint games.
If so, you would surely know the cube action here.

It looks like you haven't read Wachtel's book. It doesn't discuss
any positions like this one.

---
Tim Chow

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:44:39 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:

On 10/21/2022 7:19 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

I wonder if you read Wachtel's book(s) on acepoint games.
If so, you would surely know the cube action here.

It looks like you haven't read Wachtel's book. It doesn't discuss
any positions like this one.

---
Tim Chow

I thought he gave all post-acepoint scenarios.
Maybe this position's too rare.
What do you think the cube action is?

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2022-10-22, peps...@gmail.com <pepstein5@gmail.com> wrote:

I thought he gave all post-acepoint scenarios.
Maybe this position's too rare.

This possition looks quite remote from a post ace point game, or at
least comes so late after one that its origin is only barely
recognizable. As far as I remember Wachtel's book is more about play immediately after a hit from the anchor: containment play against very
few checkers, trapping a second one, things like that.

What do you think the cube action is?

This is an example that would rather be an example for Trice's
_Backgammon Boot Camp_ section about EPC, where he writes about stack
and stragglers races.

X's count is 22 (3n+1 where n is the number rolls). O is 23 (pipcount +
5; to break ties round down with 14 off, up with 13 off).

Point of last take is trailing by n - 3, so this is a pass.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 10/22/2022 8:37 AM, Philippe Michel wrote:

This possition looks quite remote from a post ace point game, or at
least comes so late after one that its origin is only barely
recognizable. As far as I remember Wachtel's book is more about play immediately after a hit from the anchor: containment play against very
few checkers, trapping a second one, things like that.

Yes. Below are a couple of typical positions from his book.
He also considers some standard one-checker closeouts and
two-checkers closeouts, but most of the positions in the book
feature a six-prime as shown below.

XGID=----BBBBBB-----A--A---bbA-:1:1:-1:21:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O O | +---+
| O O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X X |
| O O | | X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 10 O: 135 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 21


XGID=----BBBBBB--------A---bdB-:1:1:1:31:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X | | O O X |
| | | O O X |
| | | O |
| | | O |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | | +---+
| X X X | | X X X | | 2 |
| X X X | | X X X | +---+
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 144 O: 14 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, X own cube
X to play 31


---
Tim Chow

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 4:13:22 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:

On 10/22/2022 8:37 AM, Philippe Michel wrote:

This possition looks quite remote from a post ace point game, or at
least comes so late after one that its origin is only barely
recognizable. As far as I remember Wachtel's book is more about play immediately after a hit from the anchor: containment play against very
few checkers, trapping a second one, things like that.

Yes. Below are a couple of typical positions from his book.
He also considers some standard one-checker closeouts and
two-checkers closeouts, but most of the positions in the book
feature a six-prime as shown below.

XGID=----BBBBBB-----A--A---bbA-:1:1:-1:21:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O | | O O O | +---+
| O O O | | O O O | | 2 |
| | | | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X X |
| O O | | X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 10 O: 135 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 21

XGID=----BBBBBB--------A---bdB-:1:1:1:31:0:0:0:0:10

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X | | O O X |
| | | O O X |
| | | O |
| | | O |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | | +---+
| X X X | | X X X | | 2 |
| X X X | | X X X | +---+
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 144 O: 14 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, X own cube
X to play 31

At first, I was a bit puzzled by you not attempting my problem.
But then I remembered that you don't do racing cube problems.
I forgot that rule.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 10/21/2022 7:19 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

I wonder if you read Wachtel's book(s) on acepoint games.
If so, you would surely know the cube action here.
If not, I wonder why not.
One possibility is that, to be motivated to stay at a bookstore,
it needs to serve the right type of coffee. Without good quality
coffee, you're unlikely to be motivated to hang around there
long enough to find the backgammon section.

XGID=-EA----a------------------:2:1:1:00:4:4:3:0:10
X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon

Score is X:4 O:4. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| | | X |
| | | X | +---+
| | | X | | 4 |
| O | | X X | +---+
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 7 O: 18 X-O: 4-4
Cube: 4, X own cube
X on roll, cube action

I haven't read Watchel's book, so it's not obvious to me. A cursory
analysis is that X is off in three rolls and O is sometimes off in two,
but usually three. So it's almost an N-roll position with N==3, which
would imply R/P, but O is off in two often enough to possibly justify a
take.

Applying Isight here (while being skeptical if it's applicable to a
position like this): add 6 for the spared on the deuce and 5 for the
extra checkers for X, add 2 for the additional crossovers to O to get an adjusted pipcount of 18 to 20. Add 1/6 and subtract 2 to get 19 as the
point of last take. That says pass.

But I see such a big recube vig if O rolls big that I think it's a take;
it certainly close.

In practice, I'd cube/take against a better player and hold/pass against
an inferior one. Running up the cube when it's al down to luck against
an inferior player is no way to go through life.

So, I'll say R/T is the bot verdict.

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sunday, October 23, 2022 at 3:45:25 PM UTC+1, ah....Clem wrote:

On 10/21/2022 7:19 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

I wonder if you read Wachtel's book(s) on acepoint games.
If so, you would surely know the cube action here.
If not, I wonder why not.
One possibility is that, to be motivated to stay at a bookstore,
it needs to serve the right type of coffee. Without good quality
coffee, you're unlikely to be motivated to hang around there
long enough to find the backgammon section.

XGID=-EA----a------------------:2:1:1:00:4:4:3:0:10
X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon

Score is X:4 O:4. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| | | X |
| | | X | +---+
| | | X | | 4 |
| O | | X X | +---+
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 7 O: 18 X-O: 4-4
Cube: 4, X own cube
X on roll, cube action

I haven't read Watchel's book, so it's not obvious to me. A cursory
analysis is that X is off in three rolls and O is sometimes off in two,
but usually three. So it's almost an N-roll position with N==3, which
would imply R/P, but O is off in two often enough to possibly justify a
take.

Applying Isight here (while being skeptical if it's applicable to a
position like this): add 6 for the spared on the deuce and 5 for the
extra checkers for X, add 2 for the additional crossovers to O to get an adjusted pipcount of 18 to 20. Add 1/6 and subtract 2 to get 19 as the
point of last take. That says pass.

But I see such a big recube vig if O rolls big that I think it's a take;
it certainly close.

In practice, I'd cube/take against a better player and hold/pass against
an inferior one. Running up the cube when it's al down to luck against
an inferior player is no way to go through life.

So, I'll say R/T is the bot verdict.

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Sorry, it's not mentioned in the Wachtel book.
My post is a bit of a bust, I'm afraid.

I kind of feel disenchanted with the whole deal, because my assumption that Wachtel
discusses this type of race turns out to be way off base.

It's the knid of thing that could cause you to examine your banana nut sundae with a microscope
to check that there aren't any tiny ants inside it.

I recall it being something like a 0.075 pass or something.
It's somewhat marginal, I think.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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