• I expect people to disagree with this post

    From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 9 02:32:27 2022
    For one thing, the title doesn't indicate the subject matter.
    And it could be said to be a cutesy title or whatever.

    If I do have a point (which is highly debatable [and I don't mean
    a point in the backgammon sense]), then it is that I (but probably
    no one else does) consider the below position to be a great reference
    position.
    It's a marginal pass so I can take comfortably with any improvement.
    For example, it must be an easy take if I shift my 3 point checkers backwards to own the 4 point instead of the 3 point.
    I think it makes a nice simple reference position.
    But I expect lots of objections (hence the title).
    There's an obvious Stickism here in the assertion that 0.035 is an
    absolute monster pass, and it shows my grotesque ignorance
    and incompetence that I consider such positions marginal.
    After all, suppose we were playing for $10 million a point.
    Then losing 0.035 sheds $350,000 equity.
    In this time of austerity, how can I possibly be so insensitive
    as to imply that losing $350,000 is an insignificant loss?
    Shame on me!

    And Tim might say that a) The position is not easy to remember.
    and b) Similar positions don't occur often.

    I was surprised at the rollout and was (wrongly) totally confident in
    my take.

    Paul

    XGID=-b-B--E-B---cD-aaa-cb-b-AA:0:0:-1:00:1:4:3:0:10
    X:eXtremeGammon O:Daniel

    Score is X:4 O:1. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O X |
    | X O | | O O X |
    | X | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | O | | |
    | O | | X |
    | O | | X X X |
    | O X X X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 148 O: 153 X-O: 4-1
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in Rollout
    No double
    Player Winning Chances: 68.93% (G:31.00% B:1.42%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 31.07% (G:7.99% B:0.47%)
    Double/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 68.96% (G:33.33% B:1.44%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 31.04% (G:8.53% B:0.53%)

    Cubeless Equities: No Double=+0.618, Double=+1.272

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.832 (-0.168)
    Double/Take: +1.035 (+0.035)
    Double/Pass: +1.000

    Best Cube action: Double / Pass

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.010 (+0.822..+0.842)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.016 (+1.019..+1.051)

    Double Decision confidence: 100.0%
    Take Decision confidence: 100.0%

    Duration: 38 minutes 23 seconds

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 9 20:30:04 2022
    While you're right that I wouldn't call this a reference position
    in isolation, I do think that your position can be a useful member
    of a *set* of early blitz cube reference positions.

    Let's begin with 54S-33A-F-C (54 split, 33 attack, fan, cube):

    XGID=aa-B-BC-A---dE---d-e----B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O X |
    | X O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X O | | O |
    | X | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | O | | |
    | O | | X |
    | O | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 155 O: 163 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in XG Roller++
    Player Winning Chances: 66.54% (G:27.23% B:1.20%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 33.46% (G:7.26% B:0.32%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.777 (-0.077)
    Double/Take: +0.854
    Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.146)

    Best Cube action: Double / Take

    ----------------------------------------------------
    Now modify the position by bringing another checker
    into the zone:
    ----------------------------------------------------

    XGID=aa-B-BC-AA--dD---d-e----B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O X |
    | X O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | O | | |
    | O | | X |
    | O | | X X X |
    | O X X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 163 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in XG Roller++
    Player Winning Chances: 68.85% (G:29.26% B:1.50%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 31.15% (G:6.43% B:0.27%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.867 (-0.133)
    Double/Take: +1.058 (+0.058)
    Double/Pass: +1.000

    Best Cube action: Double / Pass

    ----------------------------------------------------
    Finally, your position: another checker in the zone,
    but the defender has managed to roll an early 55: ----------------------------------------------------

    XGID=aa-B-BC-AAA-cC---c-e--b-B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O X |
    | X O | | O O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | O | | X |
    | O | | X X X |
    | O X X X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 148 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in XG Roller++
    Player Winning Chances: 68.42% (G:30.04% B:1.36%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 31.58% (G:8.41% B:0.51%)

    Cubeless Equities: No Double=+0.593, Double=+1.216

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.805 (-0.185)
    Double/Take: +0.990
    Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.010)

    Best Cube action: Double / Take

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    -------------------------------------------------------

    This way, you can gauge the incremental effect of various
    common features.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Sun Jul 10 01:41:27 2022
    On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 1:30:09 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
    While you're right that I wouldn't call this a reference position
    in isolation, I do think that your position can be a useful member
    of a *set* of early blitz cube reference positions.

    Let's begin with 54S-33A-F-C (54 split, 33 attack, fan, cube):

    XGID=aa-B-BC-A---dE---d-e----B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O X |
    | X O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X O | | O |
    | X | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | O | | |
    | O | | X |
    | O | | X X X |
    | O X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 155 O: 163 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action
    Analyzed in XG Roller++
    Player Winning Chances: 66.54% (G:27.23% B:1.20%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 33.46% (G:7.26% B:0.32%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.777 (-0.077)
    Double/Take: +0.854
    Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.146)

    Best Cube action: Double / Take

    ----------------------------------------------------
    Now modify the position by bringing another checker
    into the zone:
    ----------------------------------------------------

    XGID=aa-B-BC-AA--dD---d-e----B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O X |
    | X O | | O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | X O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | O | | |
    | O | | X |
    | O | | X X X |
    | O X X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 151 O: 163 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action
    Analyzed in XG Roller++
    Player Winning Chances: 68.85% (G:29.26% B:1.50%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 31.15% (G:6.43% B:0.27%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.867 (-0.133)
    Double/Take: +1.058 (+0.058)
    Double/Pass: +1.000

    Best Cube action: Double / Pass ----------------------------------------------------
    Finally, your position: another checker in the zone,
    but the defender has managed to roll an early 55: ----------------------------------------------------

    XGID=aa-B-BC-AAA-cC---c-e--b-B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O X |
    | X O | | O O X |
    | X O | | O |
    | | | O |
    | | | O |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | O | | X |
    | O | | X X X |
    | O X X X | | X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 148 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action
    Analyzed in XG Roller++
    Player Winning Chances: 68.42% (G:30.04% B:1.36%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 31.58% (G:8.41% B:0.51%)

    Cubeless Equities: No Double=+0.593, Double=+1.216

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.805 (-0.185)
    Double/Take: +0.990
    Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.010)

    Best Cube action: Double / Take

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    Thanks for explaining how the evaluation changes. The final position is not mine, but close to mine.
    You transferred one of my checkers from my midpoint to my 8 point.
    Sine the 8 point is better than the mid point for the spare, we improve my position (thank you so much!!) from a marginal pass to a possible take.

    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)