• Othello Quiz 2022

    From Masanori Itikawa@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 6 13:06:35 2022
    now available

    http://itikawa.com/fes2022quiz.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 19:43:07 2022
    On 5/7/2022 7:04 PM, I wrote:
    2. The score might make a difference because we're
    itching for a gammon.  Thus we need to consider the
    banana split 5/4*.  But Black has no other blots to
    pick up, so I'm not sure if 5/4* is called for.  If
    we do play 5/4* then the question is whether 13/8
    (for another builder, but not on a different point)
    or 21/16 (for better board coverage) is the 5.  I think
    I would go with 13/8.  But do we play 5/4* at all?

    Not that it matters, because I decided not to play 5/4*,
    but I just noticed that I mistyped something. I mean to
    say that if I were to play 5/4* then I would go with 21/16.

    The Othello Quiz problems are posed at a variety of match
    scores, but for many years, the correct answer remained the
    same if you were to change all the match scores to unlimited
    games. This year, I see that problems 2 and 7 do depend on
    the match score, at least in the sense that if you change
    them to unlimited, the top play is no longer so clear.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 19:24:23 2022
    It seems that I scored 7/10, which may be the highest score that I've
    ever achieved on an Othello quiz. I see that one of the ones I got
    wrong was the "easiest" problem as measured by how many participants
    got it right!

    Congratulations to Yokota Kazuki, who has won the competition three
    times in a row (allowing for the fact that there was no competition
    in 2020 or 2021).

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Masanori Itikawa@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 7 17:00:05 2022
    2022年5月8日日曜日 8:04:22 UTC+9 Tim Chow:

    Ah, very nice! So what is the story...was everything
    canceled the last year (or two?) and are things back to
    normal as far as the Japan Open is concerned?

    Unfortunately, due to COVID-19, the Japan Open was cancelled twice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Sun May 8 02:39:44 2022
    On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 12:24:27 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
    It seems that I scored 7/10, which may be the highest score that I've
    ever achieved on an Othello quiz. I see that one of the ones I got
    wrong was the "easiest" problem as measured by how many participants
    got it right!

    Congratulations to Yokota Kazuki, who has won the competition three
    times in a row (allowing for the fact that there was no competition
    in 2020 or 2021).

    Since the rollouts are the arbitrator, I think the natural way to rank the participants would
    be as follows:
    1) For every wrong answer, give the negative evaluation for that answer as in the rollout.
    2) For every omitted answer, replace the omission by the worst of the candidate plays.
    3) Sum and take the highest sum.
    4) In the case of ties, rank the participants according to their solving time.

    Of course, if there's only one player with 10/10, and we're only interested in first place, this doesn't matter.

    There are some interesting (to me) points of comparison between competitive backgammon-problem-solving and competitive chess-problem-solving.
    (As I see it), some points are as follows: [If I use any terms you don't know (and want to know), the answers can easily be ascertained by googling --
    for example "chess helpmate".]

    1) Backgammon problems seem heavily oriented towards practically useful positions. All of the positions look like they could easily have arisen in practice.
    Here, the comparison with chess problem solving could hardly be more marked. Standard chess problem solving has direct mates, endgame studies, helpmates and selfmates.
    Helpmates and selfmates don't even make any sense from an ordinary chess-playing point of view. Direct mates make almost no sense, given that chess doesn't confer much
    benefit to minimising distance-to-mate. Furthermore, the positions are hardly ever plausible. In particular, Black nearly always has a should-have-resigned position, and White
    has a position which makes White's inability to win earlier implausible. Endgame studies do indeed ask for optimal practical play. However, many of the positions are unnatural
    here too, as they are selected for being interesting and difficult and clear, with the practical value not a factor in selection.

    2) There are a huge number of prestigious (although not heavily funded) chess-problem-solving events. If someone doesn't need to earn money (and there are a surprisingly
    large number of such people) and has the funds to travel, it is quite possible to be a full-time chess-problem-solver as there is a yearly calendar of events.

    3) Because of point 1), there is quite a difference between the chess communities and chess-problem-solving communities. Over 99% of the world's top chess players don't compete
    in chess-problem-solving events. Probably many of them would do poorly even if they did. However, the converse question is also interesting:
    How many of the world's top chess-problem-solvers are expert in playing chess? Here, everything
    depends on what we mean by "expert". If we mean at least the strength of "expert" level as defined by the USCF, then the answer is probably: "At least 90% of them".
    If we mean IM strength or better, then it may be around 25 to 30%. There are many names that are well-known in both communities -- in particular John Nunn and Piotr Murdzia.

    4) The prestige of chess-problem-solving in the chess community is far less than backgammon-problem-solving in the backgammon community. I don't think Piotr Murdzia is
    particularly well-known despite having been the world's best chess-problem solver.

    5) Chess-problem organisations maintain a rating list for chess-problem solvers, which is designed to have a similar scale to OTB chess ratings. I'm not sure if this is done in
    backgammon.

    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Sun May 8 08:54:18 2022
    On 5/8/2022 5:39 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    There are some interesting (to me) points of comparison between competitive backgammon-problem-solving and competitive chess-problem-solving.

    I would say that the biggest difference is that backgammon simply
    offers less scope for competitive problem solving, by the nature
    of the game.

    One way to see this is to pose the question, how many backgammon
    problems can you compose without appealing to a bot as an oracle?
    The answer is, very few. For the standard "what's the best move"
    problem, you're pretty much limited to a few non-contact problems.
    There is also not a lot of scope for retros or proof games, as you
    will quickly discover if you try to compose such a problem. I have
    seen a few nice nonstandard problems ("Which play leaves the fewest
    shots?") but they are not rich enough to form an entire genre.

    Okay, let's say we're willing to countenance a bot as oracle. This
    is a huge aesthetic flaw, because for example, standard "what's
    the best move" problems cannot be solved with certainty. In chess, if
    you find the mate in 3, you can confirm the correctness of the answer
    during the test. This is not possible in backgammon if the bot is an
    oracle. It also raises the question of which bot you're going to use
    and which settings and so on. This is one nice feature of the Othello
    Quiz: Othello is very good about choosing positions where there is a
    huge equity difference between the right play and any other play. This
    means that the problem is "robust" to changes in bot technology. If
    we were to use your proposed scoring system, people's rankings might
    change with changes in the bot---another inelegant feature.

    I have occasionally had the opportunity to compose puzzles for
    competitions, in which the type of puzzle was almost completely up
    for grabs---it could be a word puzzle, a logic puzzle, a math puzzle,
    a trivia puzzle, etc. I definitely considered making a backgammon
    puzzle, but couldn't come up with a good one. Unless you have a
    population of solvers who is docile enough to accept a bot verdict as
    an oracle, it's just not possible.

    There's one genre which could possibly work: Proof games or retros
    where the preceding moves are all stipulated to have been made by a
    bot, and the solver has full access to a bot during the test. The
    number of people who would find such problems interesting would,
    however, be extremely small.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Sun May 8 16:14:56 2022
    On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 1:54:23 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 5/8/2022 5:39 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    There are some interesting (to me) points of comparison between competitive backgammon-problem-solving and competitive chess-problem-solving.
    I would say that the biggest difference is that backgammon simply
    offers less scope for competitive problem solving, by the nature
    of the game.

    One way to see this is to pose the question, how many backgammon
    problems can you compose without appealing to a bot as an oracle?
    The answer is, very few. For the standard "what's the best move"
    problem, you're pretty much limited to a few non-contact problems.
    There is also not a lot of scope for retros or proof games, as you
    will quickly discover if you try to compose such a problem. I have
    seen a few nice nonstandard problems ("Which play leaves the fewest
    shots?") but they are not rich enough to form an entire genre.

    Okay, let's say we're willing to countenance a bot as oracle. This
    is a huge aesthetic flaw, because for example, standard "what's
    the best move" problems cannot be solved with certainty. In chess, if
    you find the mate in 3, you can confirm the correctness of the answer
    during the test. This is not possible in backgammon if the bot is an
    oracle. It also raises the question of which bot you're going to use
    and which settings and so on. This is one nice feature of the Othello
    Quiz: Othello is very good about choosing positions where there is a
    huge equity difference between the right play and any other play. This
    means that the problem is "robust" to changes in bot technology. If
    we were to use your proposed scoring system, people's rankings might
    change with changes in the bot---another inelegant feature.

    I have occasionally had the opportunity to compose puzzles for
    competitions, in which the type of puzzle was almost completely up
    for grabs---it could be a word puzzle, a logic puzzle, a math puzzle,
    a trivia puzzle, etc. I definitely considered making a backgammon
    puzzle, but couldn't come up with a good one. Unless you have a
    population of solvers who is docile enough to accept a bot verdict as
    an oracle, it's just not possible.

    There's one genre which could possibly work: Proof games or retros
    where the preceding moves are all stipulated to have been made by a
    bot, and the solver has full access to a bot during the test. The
    number of people who would find such problems interesting would,
    however, be extremely small.

    How small would the number be?
    I would think either 0 or 1. It would depend on whether you would
    find the problems interesting. If so, I'd guess 1. Otherwise, 0.

    I like the way people's rankings would change as the technology changes.
    That's not a bug -- it's a feature.
    It's no different to the way, we reassess how good the past work of writers
    and mathematicians was, depending on future developments.

    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Mon May 9 08:49:48 2022
    On 5/8/2022 7:14 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 1:54:23 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
    There's one genre which could possibly work: Proof games or retros
    where the preceding moves are all stipulated to have been made by a
    bot, and the solver has full access to a bot during the test. The
    number of people who would find such problems interesting would,
    however, be extremely small.

    How small would the number be?
    I would think either 0 or 1. It would depend on whether you would
    find the problems interesting. If so, I'd guess 1. Otherwise, 0.

    Nack Ballard finds such problems interesting, probably more than I do.
    Stick finds them slightly interesting, though probably less than I do.

    I like the way people's rankings would change as the technology changes. That's not a bug -- it's a feature.
    It's no different to the way, we reassess how good the past work of writers and mathematicians was, depending on future developments.

    Comparison to writers and mathematicians does not seem right to me.
    A better comparison would be to other competitions in sports and games.
    If new measurement technology overturns an old verdict, that is usually considered an annoyance that we have to live with in an imperfect world,
    and not a desirable feature.

    In the case of backgammon, there is a further aesthetic flaw in that the technology is not just providing a more accurate way of measuring
    something that you could measure without it; it has become the focus of
    the competition. A sports analogy might be, someone designs a robot
    golfer and then we hold competitions where people guess how many strokes
    the robot will take to make the hole. It's kind of fun but earning a grandmaster title in guessing doesn't seem very appealing.

    ---
    Tim Chow

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)