• Re: Rollout: A good rule that I learned from Stick

    From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 13 08:56:09 2022
    On 4/13/2022 8:51 AM, I wrote:

    Interestingly, XG 3-ply doubles here.

    Over the years, I have found that there is just one important exception
    to Stick's rule.  Even in a position where you win a lot of gammons, it
    can be a double if the following two conditions are satisfied: (1) your opponent wins very few gammons (~5% or less) and (2) the position is
    close to the take/pass borderline.  The variant below is a case in
    point.  Of course, to make use of this exception OTB, you have to
    develop a sense for when such a position is close to the take/pass borderline.

    Oh, I forgot to say one thing. I was the 7-away player here, playing
    against XG 3-ply. When it doubled, I assumed that it was probably close
    to the take/pass borderline because otherwise XG 3-ply wouldn't double
    in such a gammonish position. Not having a good sense myself for
    whether it was a take, I passed, figuring that it would be a small error
    at worst. But XG overturned its own verdict upon rollout.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 13 08:51:35 2022
    XGID=-baBBCB-A--A-B--bd-cbB-a--:0:0:1:00:4:0:0:7:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:4 O:0 7 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O O X O |
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | O | | O |
    | O | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X O |
    | X X | | X X X X O O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 128 O: 151 X-O: 4-0/7
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    Stick's rule for 3-away/many-away cube actions is, the 3-away player
    should not double when gammons are still possible, because you'll
    usually be either too good or not good enough. Doubling reduces the
    value of your own gammons and gives your opponent an opportunity to
    win 8 points by winning a redoubled gammon.

    While others surely were aware of this rule, implicitly if not
    explicitly, I myself learned it from Stick, and I don't recall seeing
    other backgammon authors stating any rule of this sort before Stick did.

    In general I have found this to be an excellent rule. The position
    here is a case in point. Against a human you might consider doubling
    because you may get a pass. But according to the rollout, it's an
    easy take and a big ND. Interestingly, XG 3-ply doubles here.

    Over the years, I have found that there is just one important exception
    to Stick's rule. Even in a position where you win a lot of gammons, it
    can be a double if the following two conditions are satisfied: (1) your opponent wins very few gammons (~5% or less) and (2) the position is
    close to the take/pass borderline. The variant below is a case in
    point. Of course, to make use of this exception OTB, you have to
    develop a sense for when such a position is close to the take/pass
    borderline.

    Analyzed in Rollout
    No double
    Player Winning Chances: 74.31% (G:30.57% B:5.31%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 25.69% (G:5.11% B:0.23%)
    Double/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 73.78% (G:31.85% B:11.05%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 26.22% (G:5.15% B:0.28%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.791
    Double/Take: +0.704 (-0.087)
    Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.209)

    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 22.8%

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.013 (+0.778..+0.804)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.022 (+0.682..+0.726)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

    -------
    Variant
    -------

    XGID=-baBBCBB-----B--bd-cbB-a--:0:0:1:00:4:0:0:7:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:4 O:0 7 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O O X O |
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | O | | O |
    | O | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | X | | X X X X O |
    | X | | X X X X O O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 123 O: 151 X-O: 4-0/7
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in Rollout
    No double
    Player Winning Chances: 79.33% (G:31.21% B:4.48%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 20.67% (G:3.43% B:0.16%)
    Double/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 78.03% (G:33.42% B:12.19%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 21.97% (G:3.53% B:0.33%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.935 (-0.065)
    Double/Take: +1.055 (+0.055)
    Double/Pass: +1.000

    Best Cube action: Double / Pass

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.012 (+0.924..+0.947)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.022 (+1.033..+1.076)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Stick Rice@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Wed Apr 20 13:08:41 2022
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:51:40 AM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
    XGID=-baBBCB-A--A-B--bd-cbB-a--:0:0:1:00:4:0:0:7:10

    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:4 O:0 7 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O O X O |
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | O | | O |
    | O | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X O |
    | X X | | X X X X O O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 128 O: 151 X-O: 4-0/7
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action
    Stick's rule for 3-away/many-away cube actions is, the 3-away player
    should not double when gammons are still possible, because you'll
    usually be either too good or not good enough. Doubling reduces the
    value of your own gammons and gives your opponent an opportunity to
    win 8 points by winning a redoubled gammon.

    While others surely were aware of this rule, implicitly if not
    explicitly, I myself learned it from Stick, and I don't recall seeing
    other backgammon authors stating any rule of this sort before Stick did.

    In general I have found this to be an excellent rule. The position
    here is a case in point. Against a human you might consider doubling
    because you may get a pass. But according to the rollout, it's an
    easy take and a big ND. Interestingly, XG 3-ply doubles here.

    Over the years, I have found that there is just one important exception
    to Stick's rule. Even in a position where you win a lot of gammons, it
    can be a double if the following two conditions are satisfied: (1) your opponent wins very few gammons (~5% or less) and (2) the position is
    close to the take/pass borderline. The variant below is a case in
    point. Of course, to make use of this exception OTB, you have to
    develop a sense for when such a position is close to the take/pass borderline.

    Analyzed in Rollout
    No double
    Player Winning Chances: 74.31% (G:30.57% B:5.31%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 25.69% (G:5.11% B:0.23%)
    Double/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 73.78% (G:31.85% B:11.05%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 26.22% (G:5.15% B:0.28%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.791
    Double/Take: +0.704 (-0.087)
    Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.209)

    Best Cube action: No double / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 22.8%

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.013 (+0.778..+0.804)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.022 (+0.682..+0.726)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

    -------
    Variant
    -------

    XGID=-baBBCBB-----B--bd-cbB-a--:0:0:1:00:4:0:0:7:10
    X:Player 2 O:Player 1
    Score is X:4 O:0 7 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O O | | O O X O |
    | X O O | | O O X |
    | O | | O |
    | O | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | X | | X X X X O |
    | X | | X X X X O O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 123 O: 151 X-O: 4-0/7
    Cube: 1
    X on roll, cube action
    Analyzed in Rollout
    No double
    Player Winning Chances: 79.33% (G:31.21% B:4.48%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 20.67% (G:3.43% B:0.16%)
    Double/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 78.03% (G:33.42% B:12.19%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 21.97% (G:3.53% B:0.33%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No double: +0.935 (-0.065)
    Double/Take: +1.055 (+0.055)
    Double/Pass: +1.000

    Best Cube action: Double / Pass

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.012 (+0.924..+0.947)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.022 (+1.033..+1.076)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

    ---
    Tim Chow

    To be specific, the rule is meant for 3a 7a or greater. If you apply it to 3a 6a it will get clunky. It can be in the back of your mind at 3a 6a but it isn't nearly as on point as 3a 7a or greater. It should not be used for 3a 5a or 3a 4a.

    Stick

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