• XG's analysis inspired me to compose a construction problem!

    From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 22 13:46:03 2022
    I haven't done a rollout but I was surprised that my double was wrong
    when my equity was as high as 0.7

    So it inspires a rather obvious construction problem.
    In a money game in a no-contact position, if a player
    owns the cube and is on-roll and the correct play is ND/T,
    what is the on-roll player's maximum equity?

    Paul

    XGID=-E-EABA------------dbcaab-:2:1:1:00:16:4:3:0:10
    X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon


    Score is X:16 O:4. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | | | O O O O O O |
    | | | O O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | X X |
    | | | X X |
    | | | X X | +---+
    | | | X X X | | 4 |
    | | | X X X X X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 40 O: 53 X-O: 16-4
    Cube: 4, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in XG Roller+
    Player Winning Chances: 71.88% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 28.12% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

    Cubeless Equities: No Double=+0.438, Double=+0.874

    Cubeful Equities:
    No redouble: +0.723
    Redouble/Take: +0.705 (-0.018)
    Redouble/Pass: +1.000 (+0.277)

    Best Cube action: No redouble / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 5.6%

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Wed Mar 23 09:32:21 2022
    On 3/22/2022 4:46 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    So it inspires a rather obvious construction problem.
    In a money game in a no-contact position, if a player
    owns the cube and is on-roll and the correct play is ND/T,
    what is the on-roll player's maximum equity?

    At first I didn't see your "no-contact" proviso, so I came
    up with the position below, which I think is interesting in
    its own right. I'll have to think more about your actual
    question later.

    XGID=aBBBBBBA-AA-----------bcd-:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | | | O O O |
    | | | O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | | | | +---+
    | | | X X X X X X | | 2 |
    | X X X | | X X X X X X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 68 O: 41 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in Rollout
    No redouble
    Player Winning Chances: 76.17% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 23.83% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Redouble/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 76.17% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 23.83% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No redouble: +0.922
    Redouble/Take: +0.908 (-0.013)
    Redouble/Pass: +1.000 (+0.078)

    Best Cube action: No redouble / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 12.7%

    Rollout:
    5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 4-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller+
    Search interval: Large
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.004 (+0.918..+0.925)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.004 (+0.905..+0.912)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Wed Mar 23 09:52:32 2022
    On 3/22/2022 4:46 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    So it inspires a rather obvious construction problem.
    In a money game in a no-contact position, if a player
    owns the cube and is on-roll and the correct play is ND/T,
    what is the on-roll player's maximum equity?

    I think your best bet will be a long race. Perhaps
    surprisingly, XG doesn't play long races very well, so I
    don't entirely trust the rollout below. But it illustrates
    the general idea.

    XGID=------CCCBCA-abccbbb------:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O O O O O O | | O |
    | O O O O O | | O |
    | O O | | |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X X X | | X | +---+
    | X X X X | | X | | 2 |
    | X X X X X | | X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 122 O: 133 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action

    Analyzed in Rollout
    No redouble
    Player Winning Chances: 74.23% (G:0.07% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 25.77% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Redouble/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 74.24% (G:0.12% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 25.76% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No redouble: +0.805
    Redouble/Take: +0.802 (-0.004)
    Redouble/Pass: +1.000 (+0.195)

    Best Cube action: No redouble / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 1.8%

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.006 (+0.799..+0.812)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.009 (+0.792..+0.811)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Wed Mar 23 13:36:23 2022
    On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:32:23 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/22/2022 4:46 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    So it inspires a rather obvious construction problem.
    In a money game in a no-contact position, if a player
    owns the cube and is on-roll and the correct play is ND/T,
    what is the on-roll player's maximum equity?
    At first I didn't see your "no-contact" proviso, so I came
    up with the position below, which I think is interesting in
    its own right. I'll have to think more about your actual
    question later.

    XGID=aBBBBBBA-AA-----------bcd-:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | | | O O O |
    | | | O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | | | | +---+
    | | | X X X X X X | | 2 |
    | X X X | | X X X X X X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 68 O: 41 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action
    Analyzed in Rollout
    No redouble
    Player Winning Chances: 76.17% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 23.83% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Redouble/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 76.17% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 23.83% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No redouble: +0.922
    Redouble/Take: +0.908 (-0.013)
    Redouble/Pass: +1.000 (+0.078)
    Best Cube action: No redouble / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 12.7%

    Rollout:
    5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 4-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller+
    Search interval: Large
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.004 (+0.918..+0.925)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.004 (+0.905..+0.912)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    Thanks a lot.
    I love the word "proviso" here.
    It's an excellent word choice, and I don't think I would have thought of it. And I tend to think I'm a strong verbal type because I read a lot and got the max 800
    in the verbal section of the GRE.

    Paul

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Wed Mar 23 13:44:35 2022
    On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:41:34 PM UTC, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:32:23 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/22/2022 4:46 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    So it inspires a rather obvious construction problem.
    In a money game in a no-contact position, if a player
    owns the cube and is on-roll and the correct play is ND/T,
    what is the on-roll player's maximum equity?
    At first I didn't see your "no-contact" proviso, so I came
    up with the position below, which I think is interesting in
    its own right. I'll have to think more about your actual
    question later.

    XGID=aBBBBBBA-AA-----------bcd-:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | | | O O O |
    | | | O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | | | | +---+
    | | | X X X X X X | | 2 |
    | X X X | | X X X X X X | +---+ +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 68 O: 41 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action
    Analyzed in Rollout
    No redouble
    Player Winning Chances: 76.17% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 23.83% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Redouble/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 76.17% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 23.83% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No redouble: +0.922
    Redouble/Take: +0.908 (-0.013)
    Redouble/Pass: +1.000 (+0.078)
    Best Cube action: No redouble / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 12.7%

    Rollout:
    5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 4-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller+
    Search interval: Large
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.004 (+0.918..+0.925)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.004 (+0.905..+0.912)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release
    I would hold this one too, and the equity is also in line with what I would have thought.
    It's clearly possible for the opponent to get a shot and hit a shot, and it seems well worth it
    to avoid this risk by holding.

    Paul

    "Avoid this risk" sounds unclear in retrospect. I mean that I would rather have the horror sequences
    on a 2 cube than a 4 cube. There's more scope for horror than for miracles.

    Paul

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Wed Mar 23 13:57:27 2022
    On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:52:36 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/22/2022 4:46 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    So it inspires a rather obvious construction problem.
    In a money game in a no-contact position, if a player
    owns the cube and is on-roll and the correct play is ND/T,
    what is the on-roll player's maximum equity?
    I think your best bet will be a long race. Perhaps
    surprisingly, XG doesn't play long races very well, so I
    don't entirely trust the rollout below. But it illustrates
    the general idea.

    XGID=------CCCBCA-abccbbb------:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10
    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O O O O O O | | O |
    | O O O O O | | O |
    | O O | | |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | X X X | | X | +---+
    | X X X X | | X | | 2 |
    | X X X X X | | X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 122 O: 133 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action
    Analyzed in Rollout
    No redouble
    Player Winning Chances: 74.23% (G:0.07% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 25.77% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Redouble/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 74.24% (G:0.12% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 25.76% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No redouble: +0.805
    Redouble/Take: +0.802 (-0.004)
    Redouble/Pass: +1.000 (+0.195)
    Best Cube action: No redouble / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 1.8%

    Rollout:
    1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.006 (+0.799..+0.812)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.009 (+0.792..+0.811)
    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    Tim,

    This position seems a bit anti-Axelian for my taste because the ultra-simple rule of 10% and Robertie's 8/9/12 work both work absolutely beautifully here. 10% - 1 gives you 133.2 so we're just a microscopic 0.2 away from a double, giving an ultra-marginal hold.
    But Robertie's rule give a tiny double because 10.98 < 11 -- still it ain't bad here.

    Paul

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Wed Mar 23 13:41:32 2022
    On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 1:32:23 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/22/2022 4:46 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    So it inspires a rather obvious construction problem.
    In a money game in a no-contact position, if a player
    owns the cube and is on-roll and the correct play is ND/T,
    what is the on-roll player's maximum equity?
    At first I didn't see your "no-contact" proviso, so I came
    up with the position below, which I think is interesting in
    its own right. I'll have to think more about your actual
    question later.

    XGID=aBBBBBBA-AA-----------bcd-:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10

    X:Player 1 O:Player 2
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | | | O O O |
    | | | O O O |
    | | | O O |
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | O | |
    | | | |
    | | | | +---+
    | | | X X X X X X | | 2 |
    | X X X | | X X X X X X | +---+
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 68 O: 41 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, X own cube
    X on roll, cube action
    Analyzed in Rollout
    No redouble
    Player Winning Chances: 76.17% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 23.83% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Redouble/Take
    Player Winning Chances: 76.17% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
    Opponent Winning Chances: 23.83% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

    Cubeful Equities:
    No redouble: +0.922
    Redouble/Take: +0.908 (-0.013)
    Redouble/Pass: +1.000 (+0.078)
    Best Cube action: No redouble / Take
    Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 12.7%

    Rollout:
    5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 4-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller+
    Search interval: Large
    Confidence No Double: ± 0.004 (+0.918..+0.925)
    Confidence Double: ± 0.004 (+0.905..+0.912)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

    I would hold this one too, and the equity is also in line with what I would have thought.
    It's clearly possible for the opponent to get a shot and hit a shot, and it seems well worth it
    to avoid this risk by holding.

    Paul

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Wed Mar 23 21:52:29 2022
    On 3/23/2022 4:36 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    I love the word "proviso" here.
    It's an excellent word choice, and I don't think I would have thought of it.

    One somewhat obscure word that I like to use sometimes is "procrustean."
    In today's bureaucratized world, "procrustean" is all too often a
    disturbingly accurate description of many rules and actions that we
    face on a daily basis, and there is no other word that captures exactly
    the same nuance.

    I wonder if you have seen this XKCD comic:

    https://xkcd.com/2591/

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Thu Mar 24 01:43:26 2022
    On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:52:33 AM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/23/2022 4:36 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    I love the word "proviso" here.
    It's an excellent word choice, and I don't think I would have thought of it.
    One somewhat obscure word that I like to use sometimes is "procrustean."
    In today's bureaucratized world, "procrustean" is all too often a disturbingly accurate description of many rules and actions that we
    face on a daily basis, and there is no other word that captures exactly
    the same nuance.

    I wonder if you have seen this XKCD comic:

    https://xkcd.com/2591/

    The word "procrustean" is one I've seen many times before.
    However, when I googled the definition, I see it means nothing
    close to what I thought it meant. I thought it meant something like "ancient".

    Strange because 800-scorers on GREs are definitely expected to know words like this.
    Maybe the multiple-choice aspect makes high scores easier.

    But there's the fact that you don't usually need to get every single question right to get 800.

    For a thread like this, it's hard to resist replying from Pedantsville. Obviously, I have seen the comic you mention. Anyone with minimal interest and curiosity
    would be bound to click on the link before replying.
    The meaningful question is surely whether I "had" seen the comic; not "have".

    No, I had never seen it before. Thanks for sharing it. It is quite funny.

    Paul

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Thu Mar 24 09:23:39 2022
    On 3/24/2022 4:43 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    The word "procrustean" is one I've seen many times before.
    However, when I googled the definition, I see it means nothing
    close to what I thought it meant. I thought it meant something like "ancient".

    I could imagine coming to that conclusion based on the word "crusty,"
    which is commonly used in the phrase "crusty old man," along with words
    like "primordial" and "primeval."

    In case you didn't discover this from Googling, the word derives from
    the legend of Procrustes. Once you hear that legend, you're unlikely
    to forget it.

    On the topic of words that don't mean what some people think they mean,
    I recall someone who thought the word "swarthy" meant "muscular." This
    may be because the term is often used to describe an attractive man, so
    if you don't know what the word means, you might make the wrong guess
    about what feature is being singled out for admiration.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Thu Mar 24 07:30:46 2022
    On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:23:44 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/24/2022 4:43 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    The word "procrustean" is one I've seen many times before.
    However, when I googled the definition, I see it means nothing
    close to what I thought it meant. I thought it meant something like "ancient".
    I could imagine coming to that conclusion based on the word "crusty,"
    which is commonly used in the phrase "crusty old man," along with words
    like "primordial" and "primeval."

    In case you didn't discover this from Googling, the word derives from
    the legend of Procrustes. Once you hear that legend, you're unlikely
    to forget it.

    On the topic of words that don't mean what some people think they mean,
    I recall someone who thought the word "swarthy" meant "muscular." This
    may be because the term is often used to describe an attractive man, so
    if you don't know what the word means, you might make the wrong guess
    about what feature is being singled out for admiration.

    A fact that causes much amusement is that when people mishear phrases the first time,
    then further repetitions of the same phrase reinforce the mishearing.

    For example, some people think the phrase is "It's a doggie-dog world" rather than "It's a dog-eat-dog world".
    I used to think people said "For all intensive purposes" instead of "For all intents and purposes."
    At my school, one of the corridors was referred to as "the covered way" and some people thought it was
    "the cupboard way".

    Paul

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Fri Mar 25 07:48:28 2022
    On 3/24/2022 10:30 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    For example, some people think the phrase is "It's a doggie-dog world" rather than "It's a dog-eat-dog world".
    I used to think people said "For all intensive purposes" instead of "For all intents and purposes."
    At my school, one of the corridors was referred to as "the covered way" and some people thought it was
    "the cupboard way".

    There is a database of these here:

    https://eggcorns.lascribe.net/browse-eggcorns

    It includes the first two of your three examples. See also the book,
    "The Ants are My Friends," by Martin Toseland. The title of this book
    is a mondegreen from Bob Dylan's "Blowing in the Wind."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen#Etymology

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Sat Mar 26 08:08:40 2022
    On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 3:05:29 PM UTC, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:48:31 AM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/24/2022 10:30 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    For example, some people think the phrase is "It's a doggie-dog world" rather than "It's a dog-eat-dog world".
    I used to think people said "For all intensive purposes" instead of "For all intents and purposes."
    At my school, one of the corridors was referred to as "the covered way" and some people thought it was
    "the cupboard way".
    There is a database of these here:

    https://eggcorns.lascribe.net/browse-eggcorns

    It includes the first two of your three examples. See also the book,
    "The Ants are My Friends," by Martin Toseland. The title of this book
    is a mondegreen from Bob Dylan's "Blowing in the Wind."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen#Etymology
    The "doggy-dog" one was given by William Leith as an example to show that something funny doesn't necessarily
    make a workable joke.
    Leith was at some social gathering where people took it in turn to tell jokes. So he thought "What's the funniest thing
    that ever happened to me?" The incident that came to mind was that a friend said "Yes, it's a doggy-dog world." meaning "dog-eat-dog".
    Then he realised that it wouldn't make a good joke, and was stuck while trying to think of something else.

    Paul Epstein
    This is the piece: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/great-buildup-pity-about-the-punchline-2324645.html
    Not sure I remembered it accurately but I hadn't read it since 29 years ago.

    Paul

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Sat Mar 26 08:05:28 2022
    On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 11:48:31 AM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/24/2022 10:30 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    For example, some people think the phrase is "It's a doggie-dog world" rather than "It's a dog-eat-dog world".
    I used to think people said "For all intensive purposes" instead of "For all intents and purposes."
    At my school, one of the corridors was referred to as "the covered way" and some people thought it was
    "the cupboard way".
    There is a database of these here:

    https://eggcorns.lascribe.net/browse-eggcorns

    It includes the first two of your three examples. See also the book,
    "The Ants are My Friends," by Martin Toseland. The title of this book
    is a mondegreen from Bob Dylan's "Blowing in the Wind."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen#Etymology

    The "doggy-dog" one was given by William Leith as an example to show that something funny doesn't necessarily
    make a workable joke.
    Leith was at some social gathering where people took it in turn to tell jokes. So he thought "What's the funniest thing
    that ever happened to me?" The incident that came to mind was that a friend said "Yes, it's a doggy-dog world." meaning "dog-eat-dog".
    Then he realised that it wouldn't make a good joke, and was stuck while trying to think of something else.

    Paul Epstein

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Thu Apr 7 11:04:29 2022
    On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:23:44 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 3/24/2022 4:43 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    The word "procrustean" is one I've seen many times before.
    However, when I googled the definition, I see it means nothing
    close to what I thought it meant. I thought it meant something like "ancient".
    I could imagine coming to that conclusion based on the word "crusty,"
    which is commonly used in the phrase "crusty old man," along with words
    like "primordial" and "primeval."

    In case you didn't discover this from Googling, the word derives from
    the legend of Procrustes. Once you hear that legend, you're unlikely
    to forget it.

    On the topic of words that don't mean what some people think they mean,
    I recall someone who thought the word "swarthy" meant "muscular." This
    may be because the term is often used to describe an attractive man, so
    if you don't know what the word means, you might make the wrong guess
    about what feature is being singled out for admiration.

    Lin Yutang seems to have remembered the legend but forgotten the word coined by the
    legend. A recent London Review of Books article says:
    "Lin Yutang, a Chinese American writer whose book My Country and My People was a bestseller
    thanks to Pearl Buck’s sponsorship, was a vocal critic of Richards’s Basic English and criticised
    the attempt to abolish hanzi, describing it as an act of trimming the foot to fit the shoe."
    Of course, he should have said "The attempt to abolish hanzi is procrustean." But, very unfortunately for him, he died before he had the opportunity to meet Tim Chow.

    I was surprised to learn that you have used this word somewhat recently -- "being too procrustean about respecting those sharp boundaries can do
    violence to the intended concept."

    Paul

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  • From Timothy Chow@21:1/5 to peps...@gmail.com on Wed Apr 13 07:51:01 2022
    On 4/7/2022 2:04 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    "Lin Yutang, a Chinese American writer whose book My Country and My People was a bestseller
    thanks to Pearl Buck’s sponsorship, was a vocal critic of Richards’s Basic English and criticised
    the attempt to abolish hanzi, describing it as an act of trimming the foot to fit the shoe."
    Of course, he should have said "The attempt to abolish hanzi is procrustean."

    Well, as you may have guessed, there is a Chinese saying (or "chengyu") 削足适履 that literally means to trim the foot to fit the shoe. But yes, "procrustean" is an excellent translation of that saying into English.

    ---
    Tim Chow

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  • From Bradley K. Sherman@21:1/5 to tchow12000@yahoo.com on Wed Apr 13 12:01:24 2022
    Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On 4/7/2022 2:04 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    "Lin Yutang, a Chinese American writer whose book My Country and My >People was a bestseller
    thanks to Pearl Buck’s sponsorship, was a vocal critic of
    Richards’s Basic English and criticised
    the attempt to abolish hanzi, describing it as an act of trimming the
    foot to fit the shoe."
    Of course, he should have said "The attempt to abolish hanzi is procrustean."

    Well, as you may have guessed, there is a Chinese saying (or "chengyu") >削足适履 that literally means to trim the foot to fit the shoe. But yes, >"procrustean" is an excellent translation of that saying into English.

    The Brothers Grimm version of the Cinderella story has Cinderella's
    stepsisters cutting off parts of their feet in an attempt to convince
    the Prince that the lost slipper fits them. Fortunately (for
    Cinderella) doves alert the Prince to the slipper filling with
    blood.

    --bks

    I'm told that there's a chengyu applied to retired men that
    translates as, "walk, walk, eat, eat".

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Bradley K. Sherman on Wed Apr 13 06:29:17 2022
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 1:01:26 PM UTC+1, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
    Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On 4/7/2022 2:04 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    "Lin Yutang, a Chinese American writer whose book My Country and My >People was a bestseller
    thanks to Pearl Buck’s sponsorship, was a vocal critic of
    Richards’s Basic English and criticised
    the attempt to abolish hanzi, describing it as an act of trimming the >foot to fit the shoe."
    Of course, he should have said "The attempt to abolish hanzi is procrustean."

    Well, as you may have guessed, there is a Chinese saying (or "chengyu") >削足适履 that literally means to trim the foot to fit the shoe. But yes,
    "procrustean" is an excellent translation of that saying into English.
    The Brothers Grimm version of the Cinderella story has Cinderella's stepsisters cutting off parts of their feet in an attempt to convince
    the Prince that the lost slipper fits them. Fortunately (for
    Cinderella) doves alert the Prince to the slipper filling with
    blood.
    ....
    Yes, and after cutting their feet, the stepsisters resumed working on
    their backgammon analysis (hint, hint).

    Paul

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  • From pepstein5@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Tim Chow on Wed Apr 13 06:30:15 2022
    On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:51:06 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
    On 4/7/2022 2:04 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    "Lin Yutang, a Chinese American writer whose book My Country and My People was a bestseller
    thanks to Pearl Buck’s sponsorship, was a vocal critic of Richards’s Basic English and criticised
    the attempt to abolish hanzi, describing it as an act of trimming the foot to fit the shoe."
    Of course, he should have said "The attempt to abolish hanzi is procrustean."
    Well, as you may have guessed, there is a Chinese saying (or "chengyu") 削足适履 that literally means to trim the foot to fit the shoe. But yes, "procrustean" is an excellent translation of that saying into English.

    Very interesting, but you're still keeping me in suspense.
    I'm pretty sure my Gruntyization is correct, and I'm looking forward to getting that confirmed.

    Paul

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