1st Ed. D&D question (or HackMaster v4.)
I was about to ask what happens when a character's ability scores fall
below the minimum for a class. Do they lose the class?
On 21/03/16 21:37, Tracy Johnson wrote:
1st Ed. D&D question (or HackMaster v4.)I actually prefer the older D&D version where characters could
I was about to ask what happens when a character's ability
scores fall below the minimum for a class. Do they lose the
class?
be anything, and higher ability scores just meant they were
better at it. Weakling warriors and wizards as dumb as rocks
have a certain charm to them. Of course the charm feels rather
similar to playing Paranoia, but there is a charm.
John Geoffrey <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote in news:0ja6sc-0pg.ln1@Zothique.lodz.pl:
On 21/03/16 21:37, Tracy Johnson wrote:"He's got a lot of class. All of it's low, but there's plenty of it."
1st Ed. D&D question (or HackMaster v4.)I actually prefer the older D&D version where characters could
I was about to ask what happens when a character's ability
scores fall below the minimum for a class. Do they lose the
class?
be anything, and higher ability scores just meant they were
better at it. Weakling warriors and wizards as dumb as rocks
have a certain charm to them. Of course the charm feels rather
similar to playing Paranoia, but there is a charm.
Amusing, from time to time, for awhile, but a poor basis for long
term play.
On 3/22/16 1:48 AM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
John Geoffrey <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0ja6sc-0pg.ln1@Zothique.lodz.pl:
On 21/03/16 21:37, Tracy Johnson wrote:"He's got a lot of class. All of it's low, but there's plenty
1st Ed. D&D question (or HackMaster v4.)I actually prefer the older D&D version where characters could
I was about to ask what happens when a character's ability
scores fall below the minimum for a class. Do they lose the
class?
be anything, and higher ability scores just meant they were
better at it. Weakling warriors and wizards as dumb as rocks
have a certain charm to them. Of course the charm feels rather
similar to playing Paranoia, but there is a charm.
of it."
Amusing, from time to time, for awhile, but a poor basis for
long term play.
Unless you're trying for a sort of "Legion of Substitute
Heroes"
comedy-adventure.
1st Ed. D&D question (or HackMaster v4.)
I was about to ask what happens when a character's ability scores fall
below the minimum for a class. Do they lose the class?
i.e. If a Magic User becomes too stupid to be a Magic User (e.g. Int
falls below 9), do they cease to be a Magic User? If the Wisdom falls
below 9 do they cease to be a Cleric.
I couldn't actually find a rule outside of initial character creation.
Then my attention was drawn to the ability table for Wisdom in
HackMaster and they listed chance of spell failure for scores below 9.
And looking at the Intelligence table you don't get any spells below 8
(With three asterisks Gnomes get Cantrips only.)
Looking at the Thief skill Dexterity adjustments it bottoms out at Dex
of 7.
So by inference I think I answered my own question. It appears you
don't lose being a class, but it sure becomes more difficult. (A Magic
User with an Int of 7 and the inability to cast spells wouldn't cease
being a Magic User, but it may be better if the Magic User found
another line of work.)
What do you think?
Yes, you don't lose your class. You just may have a hard time with it.
At least a low int M-U can still use a wand of magic missiles, and has whatever hp he has for his level. A thief can still stab you in the
back, and a cleric can still turn undead.
Interestingly according the the 1e DMG aging can't lower your ability
scores below prerequisites.
A cleric in the same situation (mental capacity of a baby) might
try turning everyone but "Mommy" that tries to enter the house.
What exactly happens if a cleric tries to turn a living person (e.g.
an ex-wife)? It might be an interesting plot twist if he tried
turning door-to-door salesmen, which everyone thinks is funny, until
he unexpectedly succeeds on someone who nobody suspected was undead
(someone has been helping out the undead with illusion spells to
disguise them).
Yes, you don't lose your class. You just may have a hard time with it.
At least a low int M-U can still use a wand of magic missiles, and has
whatever hp he has for his level. A thief can still stab you in the
back, and a cleric can still turn undead.
What level of INT corresponds to that of a 3-month-old human baby?
Imagine that a M-U suffers brain damage due to, say, head injury
after getting pushed off a castle wall, or after a critical failure
on a fireball spell, and now he's little more than a very strong
180-pound baby. The damage is not all permanent, but it will take
years to recover, including things like re-learning how to walk,
and talk, and to recognize people, and he might not ever get more
than 2/3 (of the ability score) of his INT back (This is similar
to injuries people might suffer in automobile accidents in real
life).
1st Ed. D&D question (or HackMaster v4.)
I was about to ask what happens when a character's ability scores fall
below the minimum for a class. Do they lose the class?
i.e. If a Magic User becomes too stupid to be a Magic User (e.g. Int
falls below 9), do they cease to be a Magic User? If the Wisdom falls
below 9 do they cease to be a Cleric.
I couldn't actually find a rule outside of initial character creation.
Gordon Burditt wrote:
Yes, you don't lose your class. You just may have a hard time with it.
At least a low int M-U can still use a wand of magic missiles, and has
whatever hp he has for his level. A thief can still stab you in the
back, and a cleric can still turn undead.
What level of INT corresponds to that of a 3-month-old human baby?
Imagine that a M-U suffers brain damage due to, say, head injury
after getting pushed off a castle wall, or after a critical failure
on a fireball spell, and now he's little more than a very strong
180-pound baby. The damage is not all permanent, but it will take
years to recover, including things like re-learning how to walk,
and talk, and to recognize people, and he might not ever get more
than 2/3 (of the ability score) of his INT back (This is similar
to injuries people might suffer in automobile accidents in real
life).
You'd be talking 0 int there. Even 1-2 int animals take care of
themselves to some extent, although the finer things like knowing where
to go poo & pee could be a problem that low. You can still even talk
with a 3 Int.
Gordon Burditt wrote:
Yes, you don't lose your class. You just may have a hard time with it.
At least a low int M-U can still use a wand of magic missiles, and has
whatever hp he has for his level. A thief can still stab you in the
back, and a cleric can still turn undead.
What level of INT corresponds to that of a 3-month-old human baby?
Imagine that a M-U suffers brain damage due to, say, head injury
after getting pushed off a castle wall, or after a critical failure
on a fireball spell, and now he's little more than a very strong
180-pound baby. The damage is not all permanent, but it will take
years to recover, including things like re-learning how to walk,
and talk, and to recognize people, and he might not ever get more
than 2/3 (of the ability score) of his INT back (This is similar
to injuries people might suffer in automobile accidents in real
life).
You'd be talking 0 int there. Even 1-2 int animals take care of
themselves to some extent, although the finer things like knowing where
to go poo & pee could be a problem that low. You can still even talk
with a 3 Int.
- Justisaur
tmjva@verizon.net wrote:
1st Ed. D&D question (or HackMaster v4.)
I was about to ask what happens when a character's ability scores fall >>below the minimum for a class. Do they lose the class?
i.e. If a Magic User becomes too stupid to be a Magic User (e.g. Int
falls below 9), do they cease to be a Magic User? If the Wisdom falls >>below 9 do they cease to be a Cleric.
I couldn't actually find a rule outside of initial character creation.
In 1st edition, someone asked a similar question in the Sage Advice column
in Dragon #53, September 1981:
: My monk with a dexterity of 15 was hit in the leg by an arrow. The DM
: said there would be a temporary loss of 3 dexterity points, and later he
: said that one of those points would be lost permanently. He took away
: half of my experience points (the character was first level) and said
: I’d have to change classes because the character no longer met the
: minimum requirements for being a monk.. Is this proper? If I change,
: would I keep any of the abilities of the former class?
:
: It sounds like you’ve willingly accepted the “fact” that you have
: permanently lost a point of dexterity from a relatively minor wound —
: yet that’s really the heart of your problem. It seems as though your DM
: was determined to find a way to keep you from playing that character as
: a monk. This sage doesn’t have ESP, of course, and it’s impossible to
: know the details of this incident, but any DM who decides to have such a
: tragedy befall a first-level character had better have a very good
: reason for acting that way.
:
: There is nothing in the AD&D rules to suggest that a character has to
: abandon his or her chosen class because of a drop in an ability score
: anyway. Ability scores are not infrequently raised or lowered by various
: magical means, and by certain types of psionic attacks. The life of a
: character or a long-running campaign would be thrown into disorder if
: characters were forced to change classes every time an ability score
: fell below the minimum number originally needed to qualify for
: membership in that class.
:
: If it were mandatory for a character to change class whenever an
: important ability score was lowered during the course of an adventure,
: what would be the fate of, for instance, a character rendered
: feebleminded by a psionic blast attack? Such a character, with (by
: definition) a combined intelligence and wisdom score of 0-5 for the
: duration of the feeblemind effect, technically doesn’t qualify for any
: class of adventurer.
:
: There are certain types of magical attacks which cause the loss of a
: point of strength or some other attribute. Losses of this kind are
: sometimes only temporary (the strength drain of a shadow, for instance),
: and even so-called “permanent” changes can be counteracted by different
: magical means at a later time. There may be occasions when a character
: has lost so much of his original attribute score that it is not
: practical or healthy to continue in the same class: A human fighter who
: has his strength reduced to, say, 6 points is risking ruin if he sets
: out on an adventure in that condition, and the character might stand a
: better chance of survival in the long run if he decided to take up
: magic-using (assuming a sufficiently high intelligence to do that). But
: the choice should belong to the character and player, not to the DM.
: In the descriptions of the fighter, paladin and thief player character
: classes in the Players Handbook, the rules state that certain minimum
: ability scores are needed to “become” a member of that class. The same
: reasoning should be applied to those classes where the same wording is
: not used. In other words, minimum requirements have to be met when a
: character begins a career in a class, but not necessarily at all times
: thereafter while that profession is being pursued.
So the answer to your question is "no".
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