On Tuesday, June 21, 1994 at 10:58:00 AM UTC-6, Kromm wrote:

Fundamentally, games like AD&D simply use exceptionally high
and exceptionally low stats to modify certain quantities (e.g., high
DEX gives a limited bonus to hit with a missile, high STR gives a
limited bonus to hit with a hand weapon, damage is based on the weapon
and modified for high STR, etc.). Very little is actually *based*
off of stats directly in AD&D. GURPS, OTOH, *bases* most quantities
directly off of stats as opposed to merely *modifying* them (e.g.,
high DX gives high combat skills, modified by points in the skill).

One just has to accept the fact that GURPS is a skill-driven
system with a strong stat dependence while AD&D is an inherent talent-
and character class- driven system with a very weak stat dependence.

Thank you for an informative post which seems to identify the underlying
issue driving the thread.

I think it's possibly useful to work out a set of "minor modifications" to GURPS that would let you use GURPS rulebooks and tables to play AD&D
campaigns, even if you would never use those modifications to play a
GURPS campaign. That, of course, is not the same as claiming that GURPS
is broken, just that it's a tool that would need to be overhauled if being
used for a different purpose.

(Why would that be useful, when you can just use the AD&D rules instead?
Well, there's the OGL controversy, or you might just have players who are
more familiar with GURPS.)

The other thing is: what can we learn from this, if we are designing a
game system from scratch, and want realism?

On the one hand, it's quite right that high strength or hit points won't
save you from being vaporized by a laser.

On the other hand: what should stats mean? A peasant farmer about
to start on his first entry-level dungeon campaign has high rolls for
strength and dexterity. What should that mean?

It shouldn't mean that he is nearly the equal of an experienced
swordsman. Training and experience should mean a lot!

But it should have, I think, _two_ important consequences. At any
level of competency, he should get better results from actions that
require his stats.

*And* since his inclinations lie in that direction, he should gain
experience in skills related to those stats more quickly. Now, I
don't know about GURPS, but in D&D, characters just have one XP
number. A simple way to address that would be to have a
table that converts XP to EE (Effective Experience) based on a
stat value, and then have experience thresholds depend on EE
related to the applicable primary stat for an activity: i.e., to wield
a greatsword, one needs a certain EE/strength, to learn a level 9
spell, one needs a certain EE/intelligence.

In addition to training prerequisites, of course.

Stats need to be important, not insignificant, but I would think that
in general deriving skills straight from stats is indeed highly
unrealistic. *However*, there is also a justification for doing it
the GURPS way.

The AD&D philosophy makes sense if you want a group of friends,
all equally new at D&D and role-playing games in general to start
in an entry-level dungeon, and gradually, while living in a fantasy world, develop their skills until _eventually_ they start having high-level adventures.

If, on the other hand, some friends have come over on the spur
of the moment, with varying levels of experience in a bunch of
_different_ RPG systems, and what they want to do tonight is
have fun...

then the idea would be to have each of them roll a brand new
character, _and_ then with those characters, plunge right into a
fun and exciting high-level adventure.

Then, it makes sense to derive skills from the initial stats,
rather than requiring characters to go through a long period
of training and development to bring skills up to par!

But if _that's_ the strength of GURPS, then I think there is a
problem. Ideally, a game system ought to be able to easily
lend itself to both styles of play - i.e., have an AD&D style
game, with an optional "instant campaign" rule, where
characters roll for initial XP within a range appropriate for
a given campaign in addition to stats.

John Savard

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