I've been playing with it, now I'm serious, as it's Winter and I really
need to save money.

Want to learn high altitude baking. I watched a U2B video on howto make sourdough bread at 11K ft elev (also in CO):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apeGZMQIjZM

I tried it. Made the "fizzy apple" yeast mix (and used in King Arthur
"bread flour"), but still no joy. Now I'm reading about,
"experimentation". Say what? I thought baking was a science.

I did not add the "higher gluten" addition, but now have some Hodgson
Mills Vital Wheat Gluten. I also have the "6L Fast Ferment" container mentioned in the making sourdough bread down in the flatlands.

Some of the best SF Sourdough usta be made in Denver. 5K elevation!

!!K video was of zero help. I'm at 8K ft elev.

Earn yer rep! What do I do? ;)

nb

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On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 12:58:42 -0700, notbob <notbob@q.com> wrote:

I've been playing with it, now I'm serious, as it's Winter and I really
need to save money.

Want to learn high altitude baking. I watched a U2B video on howto make >sourdough bread at 11K ft elev (also in CO):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apeGZMQIjZM

Yipes...if that is the loaf to which she aspires, her advice might not
be the best.

I tried it. Made the "fizzy apple" yeast mix (and used in King Arthur
"bread flour"), but still no joy. Now I'm reading about,
"experimentation". Say what? I thought baking was a science.

Pastry and cake need science, bread needs faith, cool temps and
patience.

Have you tried getting a starter online? Cheapest and most dependable
starter I have ever used is from here:

http://carlsfriends.net/source.html

Using Carl's starter gives you the advantage of knowing you have a
viable bunch of critters ready to be awakened. You can get it up and
running for baking within a week, at most. Less if you refresh it
twice a day.

I confess to having tried a fruit based starter a few times in the
dim, dark ages, but all I got was moldy blech for my efforts, so I now
distrust them. There are those who swear by them, and bravo to them,
but I have bombed with grapes, pineapple and other fruits..

I did not add the "higher gluten" addition, but now have some Hodgson
Mills Vital Wheat Gluten. I also have the "6L Fast Ferment" container >mentioned in the making sourdough bread down in the flatlands.

Not thinking this is a gluten problem.

Some of the best SF Sourdough usta be made in Denver. 5K elevation!

!!K video was of zero help. I'm at 8K ft elev.

Earn yer rep! What do I do? ;)

nb

Alas, I am a Flatlander and always have been and am unsure of exactly
what happens- in the physical sense- the science behind it is easily
tracked, although I cannot say the remedies all work, but some of the difficulty might be in the whole bread making methodology.

Thus, my assistance may not be 100% profitable.

Have to tried any of these sites? They are general bread baking,
rather than sourdough, but there is info to be learned.

https://www.wheatmontana.com/content/high-altitude-baking-how-make-your-recipes-work-mountains

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/learn/high-altitude-baking.html

Another place to seek answers or read up on bread baking and sourdough
creating is at the Fresh Loaf:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

To me, the best way to develop a viable sourdough starter is to take
your time creating it. I'm talking at least 2 weeks if from scratch,
or the week as mentioned above if you are using a "seed" starter. The
starter is key to success. It has to be alive and very active.

When you are creating a starter from scratch, it'll show activity
after a couple of days, but do not be fooled. It takes longer than
that to get the right balance between yeasts and bacteria. It is that
balanced that makes a strong, viable starter.

The only other advice I'd give is that once you think the starter is
ready, test it before you go all in with a large batch of bread. When
you see daily that your starter, after refreshment, has decent
activity within a few hours, then you can test it this way....

Take a quarter cup of it, mix in equal parts of flour and water -
maybe half a cup of each, and let the thing sit overnight, covered in
plastic wrap and placed in a moist environment. That environment is
easy to create in a microwave oven - put the testing mix of starter,
flour and water in there and add 2-3 containers of slightly warm water
that just sit in the microwave. Body temp water is fine. You just want
to get some moisture in the microwave to balance out your dry air..

If you see that the test starter mix-up is viable - that is, it has
made itself all bubbly, then use it as a pre-ferment and start your
bread dough. Just subtract from the recipe the amount of flour & water
you used in the test.

Sourdough is always a long-term bread event. It can take much longer
to get a good proof than with commercial yeast. I realize high
altitudes often make the proof faster, but you can slow it down by
putting your dough in the fridge for its first proof. Let it go
overnight. Then take it out and let it warm up a bit before you go to
shaping and final proof.

Even your final proof might take an inordinate time. I baked with a
relatively new starter a couple of weeks ago and thought the formed
loaves were duds, but I let them sit around (again in a moist
environment) for hours longer than commercial doughs would take.
Finally, they began to rise and produced great loaves.

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On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 12:58:42 -0700, notbob <notbob@q.com> wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apeGZMQIjZM

Wow !!! How to make a brick (it went clunk when she put it
down) the hard way, by poisoning your sourdough culture with cider.

And now for something completely different:

http://samartha.net/SD/

<https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html>

(try the pages from 2006-2010)

<https://web.archive.org/web/20050524145734/http://www.sourdoughhome.com/downloads/introsourdoughsampler.pdf>

Might be helpful.
HTH
[]'s

PS I don't think minor pressure changes caused by altitude
will affect the way the sourdough culture works. Try traditional
first)
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
Nineteen Eighty-Four was a work of FICTION !!!! - Orwell

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On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 07:41:34 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:

On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 12:58:42 -0700, notbob <notbob@q.com> wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apeGZMQIjZM

Wow !!! How to make a brick (it went clunk when she put it
down) the hard way, by poisoning your sourdough culture with cider.

And now for something completely different:

http://samartha.net/SD/

Man oh man, I miss him. I am happy to know his pages are still up.

<https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html>

(try the pages from 2006-2010)

<https://web.archive.org/web/20050524145734/http://www.sourdoughhome.com/downloads/introsourdoughsampler.pdf>

Might be helpful.
HTH
[]'s

PS I don't think minor pressure changes caused by altitude
will affect the way the sourdough culture works. Try traditional
first)

I've most of these pages saved as files on a back-up drive somewhere.
I learned a lot from them.

Remember this?

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

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On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 07:44:26 -0500, Boron Elgar
<boron_elgar@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 07:41:34 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:

On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 12:58:42 -0700, notbob <notbob@q.com> wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apeGZMQIjZM

Wow !!! How to make a brick (it went clunk when she put it
down) the hard way, by poisoning your sourdough culture with cider.

And now for something completely different:

http://samartha.net/SD/

Man oh man, I miss him. I am happy to know his pages are still up.

<https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html>

(try the pages from 2006-2010)

<https://web.archive.org/web/20050524145734/http://www.sourdoughhome.com/downloads/introsourdoughsampler.pdf>

Might be helpful.
HTH
[]'s

PS I don't think minor pressure changes caused by altitude
will affect the way the sourdough culture works. Try traditional
first)

I've most of these pages saved as files on a back-up drive somewhere.
I learned a lot from them.

Remember this?

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

Last one:
Message-ID: <food/sourdough/welcome_1276316352@rtfm.mit.edu>

9 years ago. I used to zip them, and burn them to my backup
DVDs, but the content didn't change much over the years.
But then neither does sourdough.
:)
I made my starter from scratch in 2002 (thereabouts), and I'm
still using it.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
Nineteen Eighty-Four was a work of FICTION !!!! - Orwell

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On 2019-03-01 12:58 p.m., notbob wrote:

I've been playing with it, now I'm serious, as it's Winter and I really
need to save money.

Want to learn high altitude baking.  I watched a U2B video on howto make sourdough bread at 11K ft elev (also in CO):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apeGZMQIjZM

I tried it.  Made the "fizzy apple" yeast mix (and used in King Arthur "bread flour"), but still no joy.  Now I'm reading about, "experimentation".  Say what?  I thought baking was a science.

It is!! But she sees it as a pseudoscience. I watched her video and
cringed throughout and she's so proud of that brick she made. Do as
Boron writes and get a reliable starter and you'll be successful.
Remember, if you can make a decent loaf using yeast, you can make a good
SD loaf. After all, all you are doing is replacing the commercial yeast
with a wild variety.

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On 3/1/2019 2:17 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:

When you are creating a starter from scratch, it'll show activity
after a couple of days, but do not be fooled. It takes longer than
that to get the right balance between yeasts and bacteria. It is that balanced that makes a strong, viable starter.

The only other advice I'd give is that once you think the starter is
ready, test it before you go all in with a large batch of bread. When
you see daily that your starter, after refreshment, has decent
activity within a few hours, then you can test it this way....

Take a quarter cup of it, mix in equal parts of flour and water -
maybe half a cup of each, and let the thing sit overnight, covered in plastic wrap and placed in a moist environment. That environment is
easy to create in a microwave oven - put the testing mix of starter,
flour and water in there and add 2-3 containers of slightly warm water
that just sit in the microwave. Body temp water is fine. You just want
to get some moisture in the microwave to balance out your dry air..

If you see that the test starter mix-up is viable - that is, it has
made itself all bubbly, then use it as a pre-ferment and start your
bread dough. Just subtract from the recipe the amount of flour & water
you used in the test.

Sourdough is always a long-term bread event. It can take much longer
to get a good proof than with commercial yeast. I realize high
altitudes often make the proof faster, but you can slow it down by
putting your dough in the fridge for its first proof. Let it go
overnight. Then take it out and let it warm up a bit before you go to
shaping and final proof.

Even your final proof might take an inordinate time. I baked with a relatively new starter a couple of weeks ago and thought the formed
loaves were duds, but I let them sit around (again in a moist
environment) for hours longer than commercial doughs would take.
Finally, they began to rise and produced great loaves.

Thank you, Boron. I knew you would have some viable answers.

I notice you keep mentioning a "moist" environment. Strangely, despite
all the rain and snow (and elevation), here in the CO Rockies, it's
still quite dry, here. 25% indoor humidity is about the norm.

I got my "fizzy water" dough up and flying, but I didn't know what to do
with it. I fed it fer about 2 wks. but jes kept adding to its bulk,
despite it seemingly working. I'll send off fer some real starter.

That great SF Sourdough made in Denver was quite good. Then, the bakery started making "gluten free" breads --$1.00USD per hamburger bun!--
changed their brand and recipe and their SF SD began sucking. Holes so
big, you'd think they were sinkholes. I was getting more air than bread!

I'll read the links you and shadow and graham gave me. Thank you. ;)

nb

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On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 07:25:53 -0700, notbob <notbob@q.com> wrote:

On 3/1/2019 2:17 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:

When you are creating a starter from scratch, it'll show activity
after a couple of days, but do not be fooled. It takes longer than
that to get the right balance between yeasts and bacteria. It is that
balanced that makes a strong, viable starter.

snip

Even your final proof might take an inordinate time. I baked with a
relatively new starter a couple of weeks ago and thought the formed
loaves were duds, but I let them sit around (again in a moist
environment) for hours longer than commercial doughs would take.
Finally, they began to rise and produced great loaves.

Thank you, Boron. I knew you would have some viable answers.

Very happy to help.

I notice you keep mentioning a "moist" environment. Strangely, despite
all the rain and snow (and elevation), here in the CO Rockies, it's
still quite dry, here. 25% indoor humidity is about the norm.

Low humidity is common in higher elevations. It was for that reason I recommended action to make the dough environment moist.

I got my "fizzy water" dough up and flying, but I didn't know what to do
with it. I fed it fer about 2 wks. but jes kept adding to its bulk,
despite it seemingly working. I'll send off fer some real starter.

AHA!

When one creates a starter, it is best, both economically and
biologically, to so it very small scale. Whenever you refresh, you
dump out all but a spoonful and the dregs of the container. Refresh in
the same container, with 2 tablespoon water and 2T of flour.

Keeping only a tiny amount of the previous starter gives the small
amount of critters little competition and lots of food.

If you just keep refreshing without chucking, you'll wind up with
gallons of the stuff filled with starving yeasties and bacteria.

Once a starter is stable and you need to build up enough for a
particular recipe, you can multiple the amount of flour and water to
you and add in some of your viable starter

That great SF Sourdough made in Denver was quite good. Then, the bakery >started making "gluten free" breads --$1.00USD per hamburger bun!--
changed their brand and recipe and their SF SD began sucking. Holes so
big, you'd think they were sinkholes. I was getting more air than bread!

Happens. Right now I have a regular old grocery chain whose bakery
department carries THE best rye bread in the world. I have no idea
where they get it, it is as good or better, probably, than anything I
can make and it is easy to get any day of the week. I dread the day I
walk in there and they say they do not carry it any more. It'll
happen.

I'll read the links you and shadow and graham gave me. Thank you. ;)

nb

I hope you find some useful tidbits.

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Boron . . .

On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 07:44:26 -0500, Boron Elgar
<boron_elgar@hotmail.com> wrote:

I've most of these pages saved as files on a back-up drive somewhere.
I learned a lot from them.

I also remember him fondly in this group. I don't post here often, but
check every few months or so unless I'm actively making SD bread.

There's a website copying software available that's free and
open-source:

https://www.httrack.com/

For simple sites, it works well. For large sites, you can have too
much data to save, but it depends on your storage.

The site has a little over 15 MB of files, so it's small enough to
download for th emost of us. There are some broken links reported in
the log file. From a quick look in that error log, these are image
files, so the information aside from those images are still there.
Plenty of images are still there when I browse the mirrored site.

If the site disappears, I think it would be possible to set up a
mirrored site from the mirrored files.

Donald


Join the Icom group, a general Icom discussion group on Groups.io: https://groups.io/g/ICOM (just launched)

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nb . . .

On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 07:25:53 -0700, notbob <notbob@q.com> wrote:

I got my "fizzy water" dough up and flying, but I didn't know what to do
with it. I fed it fer about 2 wks. but jes kept adding to its bulk,
despite it seemingly working. I'll send off fer some real starter.

Yes, send off for some known good starter, but I have a question on
your term "fizzy water" for your own current starter.

Is yours a liquid starter, because that's what I've used the most
myself. My starter is not a wet dough but a liquid. The liquid
replaces some of the water in a bread recipe that came with the
starter. I believe it was ultimately from the Mennonites in the area
but came from a friend who isn't one.

I have tried the wet dough type starter and prefer the liquid type
myself, so that's what I've used. I kept one ging over 10 years but
repeated neglect led to it finally dying. I had to revive it a few
times during that decade plus from my bag of tricks from my
homebrewing hobby but I'm satisfied with how well it worked.

I've since made my own starters from purchased dried flake starter
material purchased on ebay.

Most here use the wet dough type starter, and there's absolutely
nothing wrong with that type. If you make sourdough often enough to
keep mold off of it, you will like it. The liquid type inherently
protects itself from mold (and other microbes) because some alcohol
forms in the liquid, and alcohol being lighter than water, it floats
to the top and creates its own barrier at the top of the container.

If you've got a liquid starter, or want to try making one (just use
some of whatever starter material you obtain when you're making the
other type of starter and be patient since you'll be starting with
less starter flakes or powder, and you'll end up with a liquid
starter.

I found some good starters on ebay but the one from Carl's Friends is
free and many find it to be a wonderful starter.

As for baking sourdough at higher altitudes, there are plenty of links
in a web search if you search for:

high altitude bread making

or add the term sourdough to the above and you'll get different
results.


It looks to me like the only difference might be in the baking time
and maybe adding a very small amount of flour to your recipe,
decreasing the sugar, and increasing the liquid content. I doubt you
have to go to all that fuss but you can decide after some
experimentation.

If you want to try a liquid starter, or if you already have one and
want a recipe, you can contact me at thew same username in my munged
email address but use gmail.com after the @ sign. I will then send you
my recipe with the feeding instructions. If you're going to make a
liquid starter, you just start with the "feeding" part of the recipe,
add your flakes or powder dried starter that you obtained, and go
through a few feeding cycles.

You will use an airtight container that has a small opening in the lid
that you can loosely close that opening or better yet, add a beer air
lock and rubber stopper to keep microbes out but let CO2 escape
through the water in the air lock. I had those anyway from my
homebrewing adventures so I use an air lock. If you forget about your
starter for a few months (ideally, you should feed it once a month) ,
you can revive it with a few feeding cycles at room temperature. You
can also play around with how much liquid starter to use by using less
water and more starter liquid if it seems like the activity is down a
bit and you're in a hurry and don't want to wait for a feeding cycle.

Donald


Join the Icom group, a general Icom discussion group on Groups.io: https://groups.io/g/ICOM (just launched)

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On 3/3/2019 9:41 PM, Donald wrote:

Is yours a liquid starter, because that's what I've used the most
myself.

Yes, my "fizzy water" is a liquid, I've made it a couple times and use
about 3-4 apples (I used Fujis, but any type will do), quartered or
halved, fer about 3-4 days (in fridge). The "fizz" is jes that. You
should see standing bubbles in/around apple pieces if you check every day.

I added the "fizzy water" to bread flour (KA) and then kept adding more
flour each day. The dough kept getting re-energized (bubbles) and
stretchier with each new addition of flour (no sugar), but I never did
see the "window pane" phenomena.

The liquid type inherently
protects itself from mold (and other microbes) because some alcohol
forms in the liquid, and alcohol being lighter than water, it floats
to the top and creates its own barrier at the top of the container.

I'll look for the alcohol, next time I try the "fizzy water" approach.

If you've got a liquid starter, or want to try making one (just use
some of whatever starter material you obtain when you're making the
other type of starter and be patient since you'll be starting with
less starter flakes or powder, and you'll end up with a liquid
starter.

As for baking sourdough at higher altitudes, there are plenty of links
in a web search if you search for:

I know. I ran across one where the OP bragged on having worked in CO
(as a baker) and the probs he had with SD, but he never told how he made
it.

or add the term sourdough to the above and you'll get different
results.

I've checked out UoC's high alt baking book (!st ed), twice from our
library. No help. The best advice I ever got was from that librarian.
She told me, "Jes make it according to the original recipe". Good advice!

Join the Icom group, a general Icom discussion group on Groups.io: https://groups.io/g/ICOM (just launched)

I now realize you have an interest in ham radio. I'm 71 yrs old and am currently working on my Technician license. Gotta learn morse code,
first. The more I learn about Icom, the more I want one. IC-7300!

I've also dabbled in "brewing", so also have some air-locks. ;)

nb

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On Sun, 03 Mar 2019 23:08:19 -0500, Donald
<t2000kw@nospam.net.invalid> wrote:

Boron . . .

On Sat, 02 Mar 2019 07:44:26 -0500, Boron Elgar
<boron_elgar@hotmail.com> wrote:

I've most of these pages saved as files on a back-up drive somewhere.
I learned a lot from them.

I also remember him fondly in this group. I don't post here often, but
check every few months or so unless I'm actively making SD bread.

There's a website copying software available that's free and
open-source:

https://www.httrack.com/

For simple sites, it works well. For large sites, you can have too
much data to save, but it depends on your storage.

The site has a little over 15 MB of files, so it's small enough to
download for th emost of us. There are some broken links reported in
the log file. From a quick look in that error log, these are image
files, so the information aside from those images are still there.
Plenty of images are still there when I browse the mirrored site.

If the site disappears, I think it would be possible to set up a
mirrored site from the mirrored files.

Donald

Join the Icom group, a general Icom discussion group on Groups.io: >https://groups.io/g/ICOM (just launched)

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

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On 01-Mar-19 11:58, notbob wrote:

I've been playing with it, now I'm serious, as it's Winter and I really
need to save money.

Want to learn high altitude baking.  I watched a U2B video on howto make sourdough bread at 11K ft elev (also in CO):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apeGZMQIjZM

I tried it.  Made the "fizzy apple" yeast mix (and used in King Arthur "bread flour"), but still no joy.  Now I'm reading about, "experimentation".  Say what?  I thought baking was a science.

I did not add the "higher gluten" addition, but now have some Hodgson
Mills Vital Wheat Gluten.  I also have the "6L Fast Ferment" container mentioned in the making sourdough bread down in the flatlands.

Some of the best SF Sourdough usta be made in Denver.  5K elevation!

!!K video was of zero help.  I'm at 8K ft elev.

Earn yer rep!  What do I do?  ;)

nb

Wow! Neat! I'm delighted to finally see some traffic in here again.
Been waitin' a good, long time. Thanks for stirring up my interest
again, Bob. I'll be following this thread with great care.

Take care and be well all,
Dusty
Lake Stevens, WA
--
"Just because you are offended, doesn't mean you are right."--unk

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