I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a
Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the
bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and >sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his
recipes.
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 22:06:50 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:
I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a
Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the
bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and
sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his
recipes.
Without context, the claim itself is not understandable. I do not know
of any standards for SF SD or French levains.
I take ALL bread making books with a grain of salt, from older ones to
newer ones. So many of them develop a technique that works for them
and their bakeries, and you know me- I do not believe any one of these
guys has the True Path to Perfect Bread.
On 2019-10-27 8:33 a.m., Boron Elgar wrote:
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 22:06:50 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:I agree with you and I'm generally pretty casual about the SD recipe
I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a >>> Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the
bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and
sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his
recipes.
Without context, the claim itself is not understandable. I do not know
of any standards for SF SD or French levains.
I take ALL bread making books with a grain of salt, from older ones to
newer ones. So many of them develop a technique that works for them
and their bakeries, and you know me- I do not believe any one of these
guys has the True Path to Perfect Bread.
that I often make up on the fly.
However, his statement flew in the face of everything I've learned over
the last 45+ years of bread baking. The French use a stiff, 60% levain
that results in a more subtle flavour. The instructors at the local
Alliance Française told me that they hated the SF type which is much
sourer. The 100% hydration SF starter AIUI promotes the propagation of
the bacteria whereas the 60% French levain promotes the yeast.
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:56:11 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:
On 2019-10-27 8:33 a.m., Boron Elgar wrote:
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 22:06:50 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:I agree with you and I'm generally pretty casual about the SD recipe
I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a >>>> Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the >>>> bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and >>>> sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his >>>> recipes.
Without context, the claim itself is not understandable. I do not know
of any standards for SF SD or French levains.
I take ALL bread making books with a grain of salt, from older ones to
newer ones. So many of them develop a technique that works for them
and their bakeries, and you know me- I do not believe any one of these
guys has the True Path to Perfect Bread.
that I often make up on the fly.
However, his statement flew in the face of everything I've learned over
the last 45+ years of bread baking. The French use a stiff, 60% levain
that results in a more subtle flavour. The instructors at the local
Alliance Française told me that they hated the SF type which is much
sourer. The 100% hydration SF starter AIUI promotes the propagation of
the bacteria whereas the 60% French levain promotes the yeast.
I thought temperature was the main factor.
https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/64/7/2616.full-text.pdf
//The parameter estimates for the effect of temperature on the growth
of L. sanfranciscensis and C. milleri determined in our work are in
good agreement with literature data. Bocker et al. and Spicher
reported that strains of L. sanfranciscensis have a T opt in the range between 30 and 37°C. C. milleri and S. exiguus do not grow at
temperatures above 35°C. The observation that L. sanfranciscensis
LTH2581 and LTH1729 and C. milleri LTH H198 exhibit the same response
to temperatures below 26°C provides an explanation for the stable association of these organisms in a sourdough for more than 20 years.
Our data are furthermore in agreement with the "baker's rule" that low temperatures during sourdough fermentations (20 to 26°C) are better
for yeast growth than higher temperatures.//
(references numbers removed)
Lower temperatures = more yeast (mild).
Higher temperatures = more bacteria (sour).
(within reasonable limits, of course, or I'd be eating
sulphuric acid grade sour - temp is 36C ATM)
PS The document above courtesy of Samartha's webpage.
[]'s
On 2019-10-27 8:33 a.m., Boron Elgar wrote:
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 22:06:50 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:I agree with you and I'm generally pretty casual about the SD recipe
I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a >>> Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the
bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and
sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his
recipes.
Without context, the claim itself is not understandable. I do not know
of any standards for SF SD or French levains.
I take ALL bread making books with a grain of salt, from older ones to
newer ones. So many of them develop a technique that works for them
and their bakeries, and you know me- I do not believe any one of these
guys has the True Path to Perfect Bread.
that I often make up on the fly.
However, his statement flew in the face of everything I've learned over
the last 45+ years of bread baking. The French use a stiff, 60% levain
that results in a more subtle flavour. The instructors at the local
Alliance Française told me that they hated the SF type which is much
sourer. The 100% hydration SF starter AIUI promotes the propagation of
the bacteria whereas the 60% French levain promotes the yeast.
I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by aIt's probably just me not having a clue, but that statement seems odd.
Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the
bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
 As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his recipes.
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:56:11 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:
On 2019-10-27 8:33 a.m., Boron Elgar wrote:
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 22:06:50 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:I agree with you and I'm generally pretty casual about the SD recipe
I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a >>>> Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the >>>> bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and >>>> sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his
recipes.
Without context, the claim itself is not understandable. I do not know
of any standards for SF SD or French levains.
I take ALL bread making books with a grain of salt, from older ones to
newer ones. So many of them develop a technique that works for them
and their bakeries, and you know me- I do not believe any one of these
guys has the True Path to Perfect Bread.
that I often make up on the fly.
However, his statement flew in the face of everything I've learned over
the last 45+ years of bread baking. The French use a stiff, 60% levain
that results in a more subtle flavour. The instructors at the local >>Alliance Française told me that they hated the SF type which is much >>sourer. The 100% hydration SF starter AIUI promotes the propagation of
the bacteria whereas the 60% French levain promotes the yeast.
I think the sour tang comes as much from how the dough is
made/fermented as much as from the starter.
Now, I should add that I have made loaves that take 3-4 days to make
and the initial starter can be enhanced or toned down that way.
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:35:17 -0400, Boron Elgar
<boron_elgar@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:56:11 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:
On 2019-10-27 8:33 a.m., Boron Elgar wrote:
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 22:06:50 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:I agree with you and I'm generally pretty casual about the SD recipe
I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a >>>>> Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the >>>>> bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a
French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and >>>>> sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his >>>>> recipes.
Without context, the claim itself is not understandable. I do not know >>>> of any standards for SF SD or French levains.
I take ALL bread making books with a grain of salt, from older ones to >>>> newer ones. So many of them develop a technique that works for them
and their bakeries, and you know me- I do not believe any one of these >>>> guys has the True Path to Perfect Bread.
that I often make up on the fly.
However, his statement flew in the face of everything I've learned over >>>the last 45+ years of bread baking. The French use a stiff, 60% levain >>>that results in a more subtle flavour. The instructors at the local >>>Alliance Française told me that they hated the SF type which is much >>>sourer. The 100% hydration SF starter AIUI promotes the propagation of >>>the bacteria whereas the 60% French levain promotes the yeast.
I think the sour tang comes as much from how the dough is
made/fermented as much as from the starter.
Dough is really just a "big" starter. The bugs in there have
not developed tools yet to discover how big their "world" is, so they
just carry on doing what they do,
Now, I should add that I have made loaves that take 3-4 days to make
and the initial starter can be enhanced or toned down that way.
A mixture of flour/water/yeast/bacteria that takes 3-4 days to
rise is probably in a cold environment. That would favor the yeast
over the "sour" bacteria. IOW, would produce a mild taste.
[]'s
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 22:11:25 -0300, Shadow <Sh@dow.br> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 20:35:17 -0400, Boron Elgar
<boron_elgar@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 12:56:11 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:
On 2019-10-27 8:33 a.m., Boron Elgar wrote:
On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 22:06:50 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote: >>>>>I agree with you and I'm generally pretty casual about the SD recipe
I've just been reading "Baking artisan bread with natural starters" by a >>>>>> Mark Friend. who, judging by the bio, is an authoritative figure in the >>>>>> bread world.
He states that San Francisco sourdough starter is *stiff* whereas a >>>>>> French levain is at 100% hydration.
Every other book I've read, as well as multiple posts in the bread and >>>>>> sourdough groups, state exactly the opposite.
As forgiving as bread is, it doesn't give me much confidence in his >>>>>> recipes.
Without context, the claim itself is not understandable. I do not know >>>>> of any standards for SF SD or French levains.
I take ALL bread making books with a grain of salt, from older ones to >>>>> newer ones. So many of them develop a technique that works for them
and their bakeries, and you know me- I do not believe any one of these >>>>> guys has the True Path to Perfect Bread.
that I often make up on the fly.
However, his statement flew in the face of everything I've learned over >>>> the last 45+ years of bread baking. The French use a stiff, 60% levain >>>> that results in a more subtle flavour. The instructors at the local
Alliance Française told me that they hated the SF type which is much
sourer. The 100% hydration SF starter AIUI promotes the propagation of >>>> the bacteria whereas the 60% French levain promotes the yeast.
I think the sour tang comes as much from how the dough is
made/fermented as much as from the starter.
Dough is really just a "big" starter. The bugs in there have
not developed tools yet to discover how big their "world" is, so they
just carry on doing what they do,
What does that indicate?
How one *creates* that final dough- the starter and any pre-ferments
and the proportions of that in the final dough as well as time/temp variations on the dough are what can create the flavor.
Now, I should add that I have made loaves that take 3-4 days to make
and the initial starter can be enhanced or toned down that way.
A mixture of flour/water/yeast/bacteria that takes 3-4 days to
rise is probably in a cold environment. That would favor the yeast
over the "sour" bacteria. IOW, would produce a mild taste.
[]'s
It doesn't,as a final dough, take 3-4 days to rise.
The final dough incorporates a series of pre-ferments which ultimately
get incorporated into the final dough.
The pre-ferments are at room temp, the final dough always spends some
time in a fridge- for how long,though,depends on many things.
I can make a loaf that is tangy or mild or sweet or savory and do it
over 3-4 days. Depends on the ripeness of the starter(s) I use, the
flours, the time and the temps.
This ain't rocket science after all these years, but I have control
over the taste of the final product.
I can make a loaf that is tangy or mild or sweet or savory and do it
over 3-4 days. Depends on the ripeness of the starter(s) I use, the
flours, the time and the temps.
T'was said:
I can make a loaf that is tangy or mild or sweet or savory and do it
over 3-4 days. Depends on the ripeness of the starter(s) I use, the
flours, the time and the temps.
I cannot imagine 4 days. If I start starter refreshment this morning,
I expect to bake the day after tomorrow in the morning, or, in the >summertime, tomorrow evening.
For instance: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217949908807373&set=gm.334925257126208&type=3&theater
Gas is lost through the dough surface, more for longer rise.
Activity is easier to assess in a thicker starter, which rises,
not just bubbles.
Long rise gives more sour that oven push.
So it seems to me, for what its worth.
On 2019-11-02 7:46 p.m., Boron Elgar wrote:
Can you produce a loaf with a thinnish crust? Yesterday, I gave a loaf
This ain't rocket science after all these years, but I have control
over the taste of the final product.
of SD to a friend who suffers from IBS. She liked the bread but found
the crust to be too thick and tough. It was a 66% hydration loaf but
judging by the dough, the flour bin at the bulk store had been
mis-labelled and was not a bread flour but softer.
Can you produce a loaf with a thinnish crust?
Yesterday, I gave a loaf of SD to a friend who suffers from IBS.
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:35:06 -0600, graham <g.stereo@shaw.ca> wrote:
Can you produce a loaf with a thinnish crust?
Oil will give you a softer bread with a thinner crust. Add
olive (or soy) oil to the recipe. You can even spray oil on the dough
before baking.
Personally I like a crunchy crust, so I use little oil and
spray the oven with water while baking (after the bread is "set" or it
might collapse).
Yesterday, I gave a loaf of SD to a friend who suffers from IBS.
I don't think crusts affect IBS.
[]'s
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