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  • Italian food before pasta and tomatoes

    From fatloss435@gmail.com@21:1/5 to David Tallan on Mon Apr 13 06:13:04 2020
    On Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, David Tallan wrote:
    Ian Menzies (menzies@nortel.ca) wrote:

    : I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
    : introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
    : tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?

    Going from my recollection of primarily 15th century Italian sources,
    pasta was oten cooked in meat broth and served with cheese.

    For what it's worth, if memory serves (sorry, my cookbook collection
    is not here) there are pasta recipes in English cookbooks that predate
    Marco Polo so I think it quite probable that pasta in Europe predated
    Marco Polo.

    Respectfully,
    David Tallan
    talland@io.org

    great info I just now learned thanks.

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  • From fatloss435@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Ian Menzies on Mon Apr 13 06:11:04 2020
    On Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, Ian Menzies wrote:
    A few of us at work were wondering about what people in Italy ate before
    the introduction of pasta? As I recall, both pasta and pizza were
    brought back to Italy by Marco Polo during the middle-ages.

    I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
    tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?

    Any answers will be appreciated.

    Pizza was invented in New York city around the turn of the early twentieth century by italian immigrants thats why New York pizza is the thin crust. Mant variations of the pizza have come from various parts of the United states such as chicago style
    thick pizza as well as Detroit style square deep dish pizza.I lived in Las Vegas years ago and ate at a local pizza place called Boston pizza it was the best I have eaten.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nexus@panix.com@21:1/5 to fatloss435@gmail.com on Tue Apr 14 02:56:54 2020
    In article <05dfd795-78e1-40b6-b362-f0f02a4d5ee0@googlegroups.com>,
    <fatloss435@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, David Tallan wrote:
    Ian Menzies (menzies@nortel.ca) wrote:

    : I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
    : introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
    : tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?

    Pasta, with or without sauce, is a very late arrival. In Medieval cuisine, there is a lasagne precursor called (with various spellings) 'losyns' which is thin flour dough, layered with broth and cheese. There's a recipe in the
    14th c. English recipe collection family usually called 'Forme of Cury' for this. There's another recipe in the same collection called 'Makerouns' which is for another fresh pasta dish, with cheese and better.

    For Italy in particular, there are some 14th and 15th century MS with some pasta recipes. Libro per Cuoco has an herb,cheese, and egg filled ravioli,
    for example, served topped with more cheese.

    Barbara Santich, in 'The Original Mediterranean Cuisine' points out that
    the term 'pasta' is late, but the food stuff was known since the fifth
    century by the Greek term ittria, and may have been an orzo type. It was commercially availble by the 14th century in Italy. She notes
    that the standard way of cooking was in stock, or in water with salt
    and some sort of lipid. Usually served with grated cheese, and sometimes spices, as in the English recipes above.


    JB
    ------------
    Jeff Berry - http://www.aspiringluddite.com - food, musings, etc.
    "I don't need TV when I got T-Rex" - Mott the Hoople

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nexus@panix.com@21:1/5 to fatloss435@gmail.com on Tue Apr 14 03:00:15 2020
    In article <05dfd795-78e1-40b6-b362-f0f02a4d5ee0@googlegroups.com>,
    <fatloss435@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, David Tallan wrote:
    Ian Menzies (menzies@nortel.ca) wrote:

    : I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was
    : introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
    : tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?


    For Italy in particular, there are some 14th and 15th century MS with some pasta recipes. Libro per Cuoco has an herb,cheese, and egg filled ravioli,
    for example, served topped with more cheese.

    Barbara Santich, in 'The Original Mediterranean Cuisine' points out that
    the term 'pasta' is late, but the food stuff was known since the fifth
    century by the Greek term ittria, and may have been an orzo type. It was commercially availble by the 14th century in Italy. She notes
    that the standard way of cooking was in stock, or in water with salt
    and some sort of lipid. Usually served with grated cheese, and sometimes spices.

    In Medieval English cuisine, there are also some pasta-type dishes.
    There is a lasagne precursor called (with various spellings) 'losyns' which is thin flour dough, layered with broth and cheese. There's a recipe in the
    14th c. English recipe collection family usually called 'Forme of Cury' for this. There's another recipe in the same collection called 'Makerouns' which is for another fresh pasta dish, with cheese and butter.

    JB
    ------------
    Jeff Berry - http://www.aspiringluddite.com - food, musings, etc.
    "I don't need TV when I got T-Rex" - Mott the Hoople

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rob M@21:1/5 to Ian Menzies on Mon Oct 19 03:09:06 2020
    On Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, Ian Menzies wrote:
    A few of us at work were wondering about what people in Italy ate before
    the introduction of pasta? As I recall, both pasta and pizza were
    brought back to Italy by Marco Polo during the middle-ages.
    I have also heard that the tomatoe was native to the Americas and was introduced to Europe after 1492. What was served on pasta before
    tomatoes arrived? Lots of pesto? Cream sauces?
    Any answers will be appreciated.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)