On Sunday, May 20, 2001 at 4:03:00 PM UTC-7, Jorene Downs wrote:

"Michelle" <lethal@alltel.net> wrote

She WAS fine with picking her feet up, but as he started trimming and banging on her feet more and more, she started resisting more and more.

I don't see how this behavior indicates she was properly broke for handling her feet?

Since "keeping" her
foot only made things worse, I've just started picking them up and not trying to hold on when she wants to take them away. I'm not going to

bully

her into holding her feet up. If she decides holding a foot up to be

worked

on isn't that bad, she'll stop putting up a fight. If she doesn't want to hold her feet up to be worked on, I won't make her.

Ooops! You're setting yourself up for even greater problems with this approach. The mare will need her feet taken care of. She needs to be trained and safe for the farrier and for your routine hoof care. Your version would be teaching her that it is *acceptable* for her to pull her foot away. This is not the kind of training she needs since it only encourages unsafe behavior, and can escalate to even more unsafe behavior.

Jennifer wrote:

It certainly sound as though you need professional help with this mare

or

the problems will continue to grow.

You can type "need professional help" 50 more times, and it still won't

make

a difference to me.

Perhaps it should ... ;)

She's stopped trying to turn back when I lead from the
pasture, and she doesn't try to turn and face the pasture when tied. She seems to be getting a lot more comfortable with being around me. Just because I've never had to deal with this before doesn't mean that I don't know which end of the horse to feed.

Knowing which end to feed doesn't mean you have the answers for training issues.

But I'm glad the re-training is working! Simple once you know the solution, eh? And now you have the knowledge to apply in similar situations, to *prevent* a similar problem from developing. ;)

I know enough about horses that I
would have been able to fix the problem myself eventually,

If you knew enough about horses, you would have started "fixing" the problem of the mare being herd bound the *first* time you handled her. Don't get
me wrong, I think it's great that you want to learn how to do things
yourself and learn to resolve basic training situations. I consider it mandatory for a horse owner to have not only basic education, but ongoing learning. Sadly, many owners do not ... and have no desire to learn. But it sounds like you're mostly "guessing" your way through this mare's problems - only asking for help when the situation is obviously beyond your knowledge level - and "guessing" tends to create more problems instead of providing solutions.

I'll be sure to think twice before I ever ask for advice here again... :)

Then I'm sorry for both you and your new mare, because it appears you do *not* have the right answers, which means you won't be providing the right solutions ... which means you'll likely be creating more problems. Is this what you want in your future?

So far you've described 2 problems that should not have existed, yet shouldn't have been particularly difficult to resolve. Apparently you didn't know how to solve these basic problems, which tells me your background with horses lacks input from qualified professionals. IME it would be *typical* for a horse with the problems you've described to have a multitude of other problems resulting from poor fundamental training and/or ignorant subsequent handling. Could be you don't even see the problems yet, when someone with more experience would spot them in a heartbeat.

Rather than you stumbling across the various problems over time and
wondering / guessing what to do about them - and possibly do something to make matters worse or even have a resulting injury - I recommend you take
you and your horse off for minimum 30 days pro training. This should resolve the basic handling issues with the horse, and teach you how to prevent those issues from returning. If there are also major holes in her training under saddle - I consider this *very* likely - it would be a Good Thing to
identify and "fix" the basics now instead of potentially having a wreck
later because you didn't know how to handle the situation correctly.

You say you want to learn how to do things with your horse correctly. Learning through trial and error doesn't provide any consistency for your horse, and the inconsistencies and errors just result in more problems. At the moment it sounds like you and the mare would do fine with a decent pro trainer. However, if you don't address the mare's problems correctly you may well be looking later for a qualified rehab trainer for *many* months of re-training ... or selling the mare at the local auction just to get the "problem horse" [which you created] gone from your life. Why not prevent further problems by addressing the issues correctly now?

--
Jorene
just moseyin' down the trail on a Paint horse
from the CEOates Ranch in California ... ;)
www.CEOates.com

This response is to a very old post, but an issue mentioned here prompted me to write. We are cattle rancher in N. Ca. Over the 30+ years I'd been ranching, riding, gathering, fixing fence, doctoring, doing daily checks of bred cows, everything a rancher
needs to do on horseback, (as opposed to ATV, in my case). I've ridden some very rank, as well as some really nice horses, over the years. I'd began by riding other people's horses & ponies at age 9, with no real experience, just a willing attitude, &
an unquenchable desire to ride, any way I could. I may have had a very defined, "adrenaline Junkie" streak, as well, but the any falls I took never scared me, & injuries healed quickly. (Living in the country, with little or no adult supervision), &
having wanted a horse for as long as I can remember, I'd found my "niche", riding the horses & ponies of frightened, or spoiled, & lazy kids, who's parents thought that since they lived on a "ranch property", (whether or not they themselves rode, or knew
anything about horses), that their kids had to have a horse/pony. I often began riding the rankest Shetland ponies out there. They were actually good "beginning self-taught horsemanship & how to stay on anything" training, (something I would NEVER
recommend, to anyone, but as a kid with too much freedom & time,& no real supervision, I did as I pleased, within reason. I wasn't a bad kid, I was just bored, & my parents were never around to object, at the time.
I quickly got better at learning what made any horse tick, & I learned about the different behaviors & attitudes of the horses I rode, eventually making fair to good progress, with them, & learning a lot, in the process. I finally got my 1st horse, a 9
year old TB-Arab mare, when I was 12. She was recommended to my dad by a horse-trader "friend", who I later learned, got the mare's Appy colt for free, if I bought the mare. She came with all tack included, a 17" heavy parade saddle, & a dry old
headstall. On our 1st ride, at the top of a large hill, she suddenly whipped her head around, breaking the chinstrap, & bolting down the hill, (probably beating the current 1/4 mile record)! I stuck until the sharp, left hairpin turn,going back to the
stable, where I came off, rotating into a double somersault, before putting my arm up over my head, just before impact. My arm hurt a bit, as I caught up with her, & got back on, riding her all the way to the barn, & putting her up for the night.(HAPPY
12TH B'DAY)! The next morning, at 4:00 am, I awakened with a throbbing, swollen twice it's normal size, bright red arm. The ER confirmed it was broken, & put a big, hard cast on it. I just prayed my dad wouldn't sell my "great" horse! To cut to the chase,
she turned out to be, (& always had been, I later found out), the rankest of the rank, least rideable horse, ever seen by any of the many trainers we took her to in our area. I hung in there another 2 1/2 years, until yet another trainer told my dad, "
That horse is gonna kill yer kid, if you keep letting her try to ride her". That was that, but luckily, my dad was willing to buy me another horse. I'd learned a lot, before picking my next horse. I found a great, 12 year old sorrel Morgan gelding, who'd
been a "rodeo pick up horse", at the Cow Palace, for years. I will never forget my 1st gymkhana, the sport I'd chosen to pursue, after training "Salty Dog", for 5 months, on my makeshift barrels, poles, etc.set up. As thick & "cresty necked" a horse as
he was, after a good clover barrels run, as we crossed the timing light, & he refused to turn & run the fence line. We headed straight towards the fence, with only a short way to go, he dropped that big butt to the ground, & slide to within inches of the
fence! The crowd in the stands were all standing up, making a collective, frightened, "aahh" sound, I didn't know what to think, except that I was glad when he stopped, & I'd stayed on. This was way before anyone outside of ranch cutters & other who rode
in similar endeavors, had even seen a horse "slide" before. He was actually a fantastic, willing, kind, well-mannered horse, who taught me so much. His 1st owners happened to catch one of the 1st horse shows, that I was riding "Western Equitation" & "
Western Pleasure" in, (we even won 2nd & 4th place, respectivly, in those events).They were baffled to see us on deck, to run single poles. Much to everyone's surprise, he took 2nd, (in a judges call, we lost a tie for 1st place). His 1st owners were
astonished that he was so adaptable, & had just picked up gymkhana so quickly & easily, even his rocking chair gait had stayed the same, but he could really turn on the speed! I guess we were a good match. We did look kind of odd, this thick, wide horse,
carrying a 97 lb wild girl... He gave me the confidence & desire, as opposed to just having had naive, sheer ignorance, (& the balls), to ride. I decided to learn all I could about horses. I quit riding at 19, other things were going on in life, & I got
too busy. His 1st owners neighbors bought him, & he became a beloved family horse. Years later, I met a 4th generation cattle rancher, at age 32, & I began my 2nd "riding life", as a rancher. I hadn't realized how much I'd missed riding! He had a few
slightly "rough" horses, of almost any breed or discipline, & we trained them on the fly, learning as we rode & gathered, how to become ranch horses, (as was the custom, in his family), & most caught on pretty quickly. Cut to a year ago. I'm now in my
mid 50's, & after a near fatal car accident 16 years ago, that left me with some permanent injuries, I'd decided to start riding again. We had a 14 year old Morgan-QH, who'd escaped up into the high country mountains, several years prior, & we'd never
been able to catch him, who hadn't been ridden in over 7 years, (along with his "running mate", a 45 years old retired QH ranch gelding). It took my daughter & I months of stalking them, (& finally sighted them, bringing some sweet Cobb mix with us),
before we finally caught them. Walking them all the way down out of those mountains was the hardest part, but we finally got them to the trailer, & around to the front parcel on the property, & let them just settle in, (after vetting, vaccines, trimming,
etc.), for a few months. I knew I wanted to ride Mojino again, so we started out slowly. Our Paint mare is a real "Marish" mare, (hence,the name, "Merry"), who's very bossy, but he re-established herd leadership very quickly. He was fine, when Merry was
with us, but the 1st time I tried to ride him out into the big pastures alone,she ran the length of the back paddock, screeching, bucking, & carrying on, big time. He balked, then began tossing his head, spinning, & if he'd gotten his head down a bit, &
a leg up, it'd been over right then. He'd start to try to buck after going several feet from the paddock gate, but I was able to keep him from really flipping out.We were on a narrow path, with steep drop off's on either side, after heavy rain, & I know
when to pick my battles! I decided to make him go several more feet, then I'd cue him to turn him back, & "tell him" to walk on to the fence, before it was his idea. We did this for over 2 1/2 long hours, into the beginning of darkness, going a bit
farther each time, until we'd reached the pre-determined point I'd picked out, at the start. When he finally gave in, & walked out without fighting me, to the bottom of a big hill, about 50 yards away, we were done. Sometimes compromise is a necessity,
but when done right, it can also be a good training tool, as well. I've been riding him more often, & that sweet cow horse is pretty much back. He's not "perfect", nor do I ever expect him to be, but neither am I. There are many ways to achieve your
training goals with different horses, if you're patient enough...

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