Since it no longer matters to me in the least I suppose I should stop complaining about it but I don't complain because of myself but of all of the 100's of technicians that can engineer projects far better than degreed engineers that are being held back
for no other reason than a useless piece of paper.

I certainly wasn't the only one in Silicon Valley that was a non-degreed engineer. There were dozens if not hundreds. I found early on that most programmers didn't have any degree. I don't know about now, but I was often shocked of the very poor work of
degreed IT specialists.

Several months ago I was getting job offers from all over the US to take jobs on the value of my experience but suddenly the fact that Biden has another year in office and the likelihood that the Democrats will again resort to election fraud seemed to
hit home and all of these jobs disappeared. Not just for non-degreed people but for everyone.

Since Flunky seems to have beat himself out of a job how in the hell would he ever get another. I don't expect that he would get a good reference since he spent his days on this group throwing stones at those who knew better. He couldn't read a simple
program and his statements about hardware were nothing that you couldn't copy out of a first year textbook. He may had actually had an EE degree which says that the school that issued it couldn't care less about their students beyond the fees they
represented. Liebermann is in that same position. I cannot imagine someone graduating with an EE degree without having full knowledge of transistors and integrated logic. You could NOT buy a single recent (for the year) textbook that wouldn't teach most
of this. But Liebermann knew VACCUUM TUBES? I am, what, 15 years older than Liebermann and I was building things with vacuum tubes when I was in grade school! I was using vacuum diodes, 1,2 and 3 element tubes at that time. Switching to transistor logic
required nothing more than learning about forward bias and how to overcome that. THAT IS NOTHING!

So how is it that Liebermann could not use his degree? Because he had no desire to learn even the simplest of things. He didn't get a degree to be an engineer, it was just time wasting to avoid the Vietnam draft.

So even if the school did actually teach something he didn't learn and didn't care. And the school allowed him to get away with it. And these are the requirements from most companies to get a job?

I will be frank with you - I shiver to think what sort of education came from Krygowski judging from so many of his statements. And only a tiny percentage of graduate engineers who paid all of that money can ever get ONE job in engineering because of a
lack of engineering skills.

I was forced to do all of the mechanical engineering on many of the projects I was on because the ME's didn't know how to calculate linear motion from gear drives moving platforms driven by stepping motors driven by digital logic. I know that there are
GOOD ME's out there. The space station projects and the moon and mars landers use the same sorts of mechanical logic that I was using. When they showed them moving in the demonstrations they were moving exactly like I would have done it. Now it would be
easier because with precise position information available from the orbital satellites you could use analog motor drives which are easier and cleaner where you don't have to maintain your precise position using all of the logic in the landers. The GPS
can be so accurate that they can give a position so accurate that they can back the rovers back ONE INCH to put them in a precise position. There are other things in the analog drives that I can imagine using that I'm sure they already thought out.
Pulsing analog motors to step the wheels in slow motion, etc.

So education is a fine thing but too much of it isn't education at all, but collecting money from stupid people that can pretend that they've made some sort of accomplishments. I never had the time for that. I was always too busy actually making those
accomplishments. So you should always remember that EVEN a PhD doesn't mean that you know anything though it could be a strong clue. And not having a degree doesn't mean you're stupid. Good machinists and tool and die makers have more knowledge than
degreed engineers in such things.

So perhaps you should not throw away a paper ceiling but you should be skeptical of its worth.

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On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 12:47:50 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

I am, what, 15 years older than Liebermann

You were born in 1944. I was born in 1948. Do the math.

Engineering is all about calculating and simulating how devices will
perform before they are built and tested. Without engineering and
math, we would only have trial and error with which to develop
products. While it's possible to use estimates and rules of thumb,
contriving numbers to suit your agenda is not acceptable.

and I was building things with vacuum tubes when I was
in grade school!

Grade skool is 1st thru 6th grades. When you graduate from the 6th
grade, you would be 11 or 12 years old. I don't recall much from when
I was that young. I do recall building a five tube AC/DC radio <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_American_Five>
in the 8th grade when I was about 14 years old. I didn't have a clue
as to how the various vacuum tubes worked. That wasn't the purpose of
the class or the build. It was to teach us how to use tools, how to
solder, how the passive components worked, how to follow instructions,
how to use basic test equipment and how not to kill oneself with a transformerless power supply.

I was using vacuum diodes, 1,2 and 3 element tubes at that time.

Yep. You *USED* them. Like you, I probably had no clue how they
worked. Thank you for not claiming that you designed tube radios when
you were 11 or 12 years old.

Switching to
transistor logic required nothing more than learning about
forward bias and how to overcome that. THAT IS NOTHING!

There's no such thing as "forward bias" in transistors. Forward and
reverse bias apply only to diodes.

Most tube designs used "negative bias" where the control grid was
biased by a negative voltage in referent to the cathode. Pick an
article to read:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=tube+negative+tube+bias>

On the other hand, BJT (bipolar junction transistors) have the base as
a control element biased positive in reference to the emitter. Biasing
a FET (field effect transistor) is a closer to a tube.

So how is it that Liebermann could not use his degree?

Huh? How do I "use" my BSEE degree. Are you suggesting that it
wasn't useful? If so, it was VERY useful. The initial advantage was
that obtaining a degree kept me out of the Vietnam war. Later, it
"greased the skids" and made it easier to obtain interviews for
engineering and consulting positions.

Because he had no desire to learn even the simplest of things.
He didn't get a degree to be an engineer,

This is what my diploma looks like: <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>

it was just time wasting to avoid the Vietnam draft.

I beg to differ but you are entitled to an opinion.

So even if the school did actually teach something he didn't
learn and didn't care. And the school allowed him to get away
with it. And these are the requirements from most companies
to get a job?

That's a bunch of incoherent babbling. What are you trying to say?
Didn't care about what? Get away with what?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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