What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you canbuild a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing toI don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setupTooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you canbuild a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or
aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now
building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
for them.
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which
can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
You are forgetting the cost of labour. I read that minimum wages in California are now $15.50/hour, $124/8 hour day.
Shanghai China the minimum is 24 yuan/hour, 192 yuan/day - about
$26.30, a day and in Thailand it is 354 baht, about $9.90 a day.
And when you add in the U.S., FICA, and other charges it makes an even greater difference.
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous really.On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
for them.
And equally the idea your going to rip out the hydraulic line, I guess it
is possible but well into the improbable, after all MTB well crash fairly frequently, in unsurprising news they don’t spend there life replacing pipes and so on.
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which
can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
You are forgetting the cost of labour. I read that minimum wages in California are now $15.50/hour, $124/8 hour day.
Shanghai China the minimum is 24 yuan/hour, 192 yuan/day - about
$26.30, a day and in Thailand it is 354 baht, about $9.90 a day.
And when you add in the U.S., FICA, and other charges it makes an even greater difference.Roger Merriman
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
(like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents"
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
(like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents"
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
(from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or
aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super
lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now
building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to
friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that
manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
for them.
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous >really.
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 23:35:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or
aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super
lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now
building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to
friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that
manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
for them.
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous
really.
I'm not so sure about that, if you limit it to "in the wet" as I had a
bike with "V brakes" that would lock either or both wheels coasting
down a hill in the rain. At probably 25 or so kph (I was afraid to
lock up the wheels and skid at a faster speed).
And "on a par" is again a rather nebulas statement. In somewhere
approaching 50 years of riding on a bicycle I can only remember one
really, truly, emergency stop. With rim, probably side pull, brakes I
was in traffic and a taxi stopped in front of me. Cars on both side so couldn't turn to avoid the taxi. I grabbed the brakes and the rear
wheel came off the ground which scared me even more, I eased up on the
brakes and hit the taxi although at a much slower speed.
Note that I'm being very specific in my comments here. If you want to
go wandering off in the muck and mire then perhaps discs are superior.
I really don't know as I figure that as the Highway Gods have given us
paved roads I'll use them.
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 23:35:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>The kids locally use there trainers to near lock the rear wheel, down the >local near vertical hill.
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing >>>> and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or
aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super
lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now
building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like >>>> running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at >>>> all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to
friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on >>>> the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that
manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing >>>> for them.
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous
really.
I'm not so sure about that, if you limit it to "in the wet" as I had a
bike with "V brakes" that would lock either or both wheels coasting
down a hill in the rain. At probably 25 or so kph (I was afraid to
lock up the wheels and skid at a faster speed).
I can if if wish (but why?) lock the wheels on the MTB and by that I do
mean lock the wheels not simply slow or reach tip over point.
And "on a par" is again a rather nebulas statement. In somewhere
approaching 50 years of riding on a bicycle I can only remember one
really, truly, emergency stop. With rim, probably side pull, brakes I
was in traffic and a taxi stopped in front of me. Cars on both side so
couldn't turn to avoid the taxi. I grabbed the brakes and the rear
wheel came off the ground which scared me even more, I eased up on the
brakes and hit the taxi although at a much slower speed.
Note that I'm being very specific in my comments here. If you want to
go wandering off in the muck and mire then perhaps discs are superior.
I really don't know as I figure that as the Highway Gods have given us
paved roads I'll use them.
A awful lot of my riding is on tarmac, even so disks are useful as ever not >needed but a nice want, for the commute it’s a lot easier and less >maintenance, on the gravel bike even on paved roads, fair bit more control >and power, again that’s like rather than need.
Roger Merriman
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 3:35:52 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous really.On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing for them.
And equally the idea your going to rip out the hydraulic line, I guess it is possible but well into the improbable, after all MTB well crash fairly frequently, in unsurprising news they don’t spend there life replacing pipes and so on.
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which >> can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
You are forgetting the cost of labour. I read that minimum wages in California are now $15.50/hour, $124/8 hour day.
Shanghai China the minimum is 24 yuan/hour, 192 yuan/day - about
$26.30, a day and in Thailand it is 354 baht, about $9.90 a day.
I didn't say it would be common. I said that it could happen.And when you add in the U.S., FICA, and other charges it makes an even greater difference.Roger Merriman
And perhaps you think that disc brakes are better than rim brakes but when I can lock the brakes in RAIN with either that makes discs look like just another reason to buy a new bike.
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 12:59:38 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:Come on Lou, cyclists are the easiest people in the world to brain wash. Then moved discs over to the road bikes not to improve braking which they don't do, but because it allowed them to make lighter deep carbon wheels and then after they sold everyone
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 3:35:52 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous really.On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing for them.
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
And equally the idea your going to rip out the hydraulic line, I guess it
is possible but well into the improbable, after all MTB well crash fairly
frequently, in unsurprising news they don’t spend there life replacing pipes and so on.
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which
can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
You are forgetting the cost of labour. I read that minimum wages in California are now $15.50/hour, $124/8 hour day.
Shanghai China the minimum is 24 yuan/hour, 192 yuan/day - about $26.30, a day and in Thailand it is 354 baht, about $9.90 a day.
The same chance of braking a cable on a well maintained bike with rim brakes. You may not like disk brake but don't come up with BS reasons.I didn't say it would be common. I said that it could happen.And when you add in the U.S., FICA, and other charges it makes an even greater difference.Roger Merriman
And perhaps you think that disc brakes are better than rim brakes but when I can lock the brakes in RAIN with either that makes discs look like just another reason to buy a new bike.Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a new bike with disk brakes and a few people do.
Lou
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 4:50:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing toI don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (
Q: What is a fair price for a bike?
A: The price people are willing to pay and the competion allows.
Lou
On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 07:07:22 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
(from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
Automated assembly probably won't work well with $7,500 frames.
Automation works best when all the products are identical. Automation
works badly if every bicycle is a custom frame size, different
configuration, different options, different paint, different decals,
etc. If Tom were buying hundreds of frames or complete bicycles, I
believe automated assembly might be possible but not with one frame.
A good example of this is Dell. You can buy Dell computahs in various
ways. The cheapest is to order one of the "stock" configurations,
which Dell produces by the thousands and sells them in any quantity
from one machine to thousands. Henry Ford described this method
nicely. You can buy any color you want, as long as it's black. It's
the same with Dell computers. You can have any configuration you want
as long as it's one of the Dell "stock" configurations.
For those with money to burn, they can order online almost any
configuration. Almost means that the option has to be available for
Dell to install. The buyer goes to the Dell online ordering page,
selects a base model, and then adds options until he runs out of
money. There are some mutually exclusive options and features, but
Dell's software does a good job of preventing people from ordering
unusable systems. The problem is that these computahs cost more than
the "stock" configurations and take longer to deliver.
If you want to build your own computer, Dell can sell you the case,
boards and options from their repair inventory. Prices are high, but
if you want to build your own Dell computer from parts, it can be
done. Well, maybe. Looks like the SPMD (Spare Parts Master Database)
and PCD (Parts Compatibility Database) are now only for Dell internal
use.
Since Tom likes to buy on eBay and Craigslist, Dell will also sell refurbished computers:
<https://www.dellrefurbished.com>
I'm not sure what Tom would do with a $7,500 frame at a reduced price.
Will he order a frame in a quantity of one? That would not fit well
with automated assembly. Will he order a custom assembled bicycle in
the style of Dell? If he doesn't like the $7,500 price for the frame,
he also won't like the astronomical price for the completed custom
bicycle. My guess(tm) is he will continue his habit of buying
components on eBay or Craigslist. That will have a low success rate
as demonstrated by the range of problems Tom has experienced.
Good luck.
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
(like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents"
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
(from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 12:32:36 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 4:50:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (
set up the aluminum Trek assembly line so that they could turn out 500 bikes a day. And the only really skilled labor would be the heliarc welders.Q: What is a fair price for a bike?
A: The price people are willing to pay and the competion allows.
Lou
Of course you're correct. But I designed so many products for medium to large scale production that I know what construction costs. If you're a mechanical engineer you should too in which case you know that I'm correct of frame building costs. I can
This is not new technology:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1hd2GZQxWs
On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you
accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factoryAnd does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.
here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
(from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 4:26:27 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:everyone on that they are now making shallow carbon wheels "for cyclocross" and everyone if buying them despite the fact that almost no American rides cyclocross because it is nasty and muddy. Don't try to put a happy face on it - you can lock the wheels
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 12:59:38 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 3:35:52 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculousOn Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: >>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to
friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
for them.
really.
And equally the idea your going to rip out the hydraulic line, I guess it
is possible but well into the improbable, after all MTB well crash fairly
frequently, in unsurprising news they don’t spend there life replacing
pipes and so on.
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which
can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
You are forgetting the cost of labour. I read that minimum wages in California are now $15.50/hour, $124/8 hour day.
Shanghai China the minimum is 24 yuan/hour, 192 yuan/day - about $26.30, a day and in Thailand it is 354 baht, about $9.90 a day.
The same chance of braking a cable on a well maintained bike with rim brakes. You may not like disk brake but don't come up with BS reasons.I didn't say it would be common. I said that it could happen.And when you add in the U.S., FICA, and other charges it makes an evenRoger Merriman
greater difference.
And perhaps you think that disc brakes are better than rim brakes but when I can lock the brakes in RAIN with either that makes discs look like just another reason to buy a new bike.Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a new bike with disk brakes and a few people do.
LouCome on Lou, cyclists are the easiest people in the world to brain wash. Then moved discs over to the road bikes not to improve braking which they don't do, but because it allowed them to make lighter deep carbon wheels and then after they sold
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you
accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "
in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
(from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
#1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
#2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little roads
#3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection wouldprobably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it
This all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the bikes inthe back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would be destroying
All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.
Of course you're correct. But I designed so many products for medium to large scale production that I know what construction costs. If you're a mechanical engineer you should too in which case you know that I'm correct of frame building costs. I can setup the aluminum Trek assembly line so that they could turn out 500 bikes a day. And the only really skilled labor would be the heliarc welders.
Automated process for brazed joints (often induction fixture, not flame)
is very old technology (~100 years). Trek was using it in the 1980s
(back when they made steel frames in USA) to successfully lower payroll expense.
https://www.ambrell.com/blog/the-evolution-and-history-of-induction-heating-part-1
Frame
welding has already been successfully automated by most bicycle
manufacturers and suppliers. No human welders are involved in the
welding. I couldn't find much on Trek, but here's a vague description
of what Giant Group is doing:
"AI-Assisted Aluminum Manufacturing" ><https://www.giantgroup-cycling.com/en/technology01>
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >> >
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you
accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "
in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
(from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
#1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
#2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little roads
#3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection wouldprobably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it
This all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the bikes inthe back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would be destroying
All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.
On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 07:05:02 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunichset up the aluminum Trek assembly line so that they could turn out 500 bikes a day. And the only really skilled labor would be the heliarc welders.
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
Of course you're correct. But I designed so many products for medium to large scale production that I know what construction costs. If you're a mechanical engineer you should too in which case you know that I'm correct of frame building costs. I can
If you've designed "so many" products, know frame building costs, can
"setup" the Trek aluminum assembly line to produce 500 (complete)
bicycles per day, you must know which manufacturers are currently
using robotics to fabricate and assemble their bicycles. Could I
trouble you for their names (and URL's) so I can read about their
methods? I especially would like to know how they handle "floppy" >components, such as brake and shifting cables. Also, how the assembly
robot handles variations in the frame size and position when attaching >components.
Heliarc and helium gas are no longer used as a shielding gas for
welding aluminum. The most common welding gas mix is 75% argon, 25%
carbon dioxide. There are other blends available: ><https://eurekaoxygencompany.com/2020/02/15/argon-co2-mixtures/>
The technology is called TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) welding. Frame
welding has already been successfully automated by most bicycle
manufacturers and suppliers. No human welders are involved in the
welding. I couldn't find much on Trek, but here's a vague description
of what Giant Group is doing:
"AI-Assisted Aluminum Manufacturing" ><https://www.giantgroup-cycling.com/en/technology01>
Reminder: Since you want the frame built to your exact
specifications, how is the assembly robot going to deal with changes
in frame position and geometry when each frame is different?
Also: I know you don't want to pay $7,500 for a frame. What price
would you consider acceptable for an aluminum or steel frame
robotically built to your exacting specifications? There are plenty
of custom frame builders around. Have you asked anyone for an
estimate?
On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 09:37:38 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
Frame
welding has already been successfully automated by most bicycle
manufacturers and suppliers. No human welders are involved in the
welding. I couldn't find much on Trek, but here's a vague description
of what Giant Group is doing:
"AI-Assisted Aluminum Manufacturing"
<https://www.giantgroup-cycling.com/en/technology01>
Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.
Two wheeler chassis welding by robot <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4khVKNZK3M> (1:02)
I think a "two wheeler" might be a bicycle, but it's hard to tell.
Near the end of the video, you can see a top view of the frame showing obvious chain stays.
Tianjin Fujita Bicycle Co, Ltd. The CNC milling and robotic welding
section starts at 4:02.
<https://youtu.be/AV_FGC2Afss> (11:30)
Advanced Robotic Bike Frame Welding 1 thru 5 (Battle Fujita Bicycle
Factory) (Nov 2016)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1hd2GZQxWs> (1:01) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t56Ty8FoYo0> (0:38) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxPEDJwfiLU> (1:06) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCXLnIgSw0> (0:41) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vofoF-ZZx-U> (0:28)
If I add up the robot cycle times, I get about 4 minutes per bicycle
per machine. I'll add one more minute for loading and unloading. If
they ran the machines 24 hrs per day, that would be:
1,440 min/day / 5 min per frame = 288 frames per day per machine
Tom: Is there something you would want to teach them about robotic
welding that they didn't know from the past 7 years of operation?
Automatic Packaging Line (Battle Fujita Bicycle) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RstGGm5IG3w> (0.47)
Notice that the robotic assembly line still requires a fair number of
humans. Also notice that the cardboard box says "Bianchi".
More Tianjin Fujita Bicycle videos: <https://www.youtube.com/@tianjinbattlefujitabicycle4290/videos>
Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 12:32:36?PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 4:50:22?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can
(like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is another thing to
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents"
up the aluminum Trek assembly line so that they could turn out 500 bikes a day. And the only really skilled labor would be the heliarc welders.Q: What is a fair price for a bike?
A: The price people are willing to pay and the competion allows.
Lou
Of course you're correct. But I designed so many products for medium to large scale production that I know what construction costs. If you're a mechanical engineer you should too in which case you know that I'm correct of frame building costs. I can set
On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns>Â (3:43)
This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna
Cycle
factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered
bicycles.
I'm surprised at the big pre-welding gaps between tubes, for
example where the top and down tubes meet the head tube and
each other. I'd expect those to be much tighter fits.
Granted, it's nowhere near as critical for TIG welding as it
is for brazing, but still...
On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.
I'm surprised at the big pre-welding gaps between tubes, for example
where the top and down tubes meet the head tube and each other. I'd
expect those to be much tighter fits. Granted, it's nowhere near as
critical for TIG welding as it is for brazing, but still...
On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:14:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Robot Building Bike (Nov 2018):
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZU80O8C4Ns> (3:43)
This was apparently taken at a trade show, not at the Luna Cycle
factory. Luna Cycle makes eBikes, not human powered bicycles.
I'm surprised at the big pre-welding gaps between tubes, for example
where the top and down tubes meet the head tube and each other. I'd
expect those to be much tighter fits. Granted, it's nowhere near as >>critical for TIG welding as it is for brazing, but still...
That's what I do when I'm stick welding any metal that might move or
expand. If I started welding at one end of the joint, and progressed
towards the other end of the joint, I will always find myself with a
large gap or twist at the end of the weld. To avoid that problem,
it's common practice to tack weld the joint at convenient intervals to
keep thermal expansion from ruining the fit. Then there's a pause for
the parts to cool down, tack welds to harden, and parts reach thermal >equilibrium. The welder or robot then welds over a few tack welds,
and again stops to let the parts cool down. For the robot in the
video, it simply skipped to a different part of the frame while the
previous weld is cooling and hardening. When that's done, the robot
returns to the first series of tack welds, and welds the next series.
You can see it happen in the video.
"What Is a Tack Weld and What Are the Pros and Cons?" ><https://www.pemnet.com/company/pem-blog/what-is-a-tack-weld-and-what-are-the-pros-and-cons/>
Incidentally, I had exactly the same problem last week when I was
welding my wood burning stove back together. I had to MIG flux wire
weld a 13 inch long crack in the back of the stove. ><https://photos.app.goo.gl/EUknsZj8HBxa165w6>
For reasons unknown, the sides of the stove were made from 1/8" steel
plate, while the back was only 1/16". I didn't notice this and almost
burned a hole in the back plate. If you look at the photo carefully,
you might notice that the back plate was warped and had buckled. I
did that by overheating the stove and by failing to replace the
protective fire brick. To keep the warping and buckling from getting
worse, I had to tack weld along the crack every 1.5 inches starting
from the center of the crack. It was very difficult to pre-align the
two parts of the warped back plate.
Unfortunately, I was not doing very well with the flux welding. It
was a new welder and I hadn't practiced sufficiently. I messed up the
wire feed tension adjustment and the feed/voltage settings. I also
failed to remove the mill scale from the internal angle brackets. The
result was a really ugly weld:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/jxv8yp6ErtbsiXhW9>
I then made it worse by going over the joint twice. I was able to
inspect the opposite side of the back plate and determined that I had >sufficient penetration. It should hold together until next summer,
when I plan to tear it apart and try again.
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 4:12:21 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:everyone on that they are now making shallow carbon wheels "for cyclocross" and everyone if buying them despite the fact that almost no American rides cyclocross because it is nasty and muddy. Don't try to put a happy face on it - you can lock the wheels
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 4:26:27 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 12:59:38 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 3:35:52 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculousOn Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: >>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or
aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super
lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now
building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at
all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to
friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on
the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing
for them.
really.
And equally the idea your going to rip out the hydraulic line, I guess it
is possible but well into the improbable, after all MTB well crash fairly
frequently, in unsurprising news they don’t spend there life replacing
pipes and so on.
Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which
can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
You are forgetting the cost of labour. I read that minimum wages in
California are now $15.50/hour, $124/8 hour day.
Shanghai China the minimum is 24 yuan/hour, 192 yuan/day - about $26.30, a day and in Thailand it is 354 baht, about $9.90 a day.
The same chance of braking a cable on a well maintained bike with rim brakes. You may not like disk brake but don't come up with BS reasons.I didn't say it would be common. I said that it could happen.And when you add in the U.S., FICA, and other charges it makes an evenRoger Merriman
greater difference.
And perhaps you think that disc brakes are better than rim brakes but when I can lock the brakes in RAIN with either that makes discs look like just another reason to buy a new bike.Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a new bike with disk brakes and a few people do.
LouCome on Lou, cyclists are the easiest people in the world to brain wash. Then moved discs over to the road bikes not to improve braking which they don't do, but because it allowed them to make lighter deep carbon wheels and then after they sold
I rate my brakes in wet/dry and alu/cf rims as follows:I used the rim brakes that came with the carbon fiber rims and they were probably below 50% wet or dry. But after I changed to Campagnolo carbon pads they became about 100% in all conditions but I may have begun braking a little earlier because of my
Rimbrake on alu rims in dry conditions: 100%
Rimbrake on alu rims in wet conditions: 90%
Rimbrake on cf rims in dry condions: 60%
Rimbrake on cf rims in wet conditions: 30%
Diskbrake with alu rims in dry conditions: 100%
Diskbrake with alu rims in wet conditions: 95%
Diskbrake with cf rims in dry conditions: 100%
Diskbrake with cf rims in wet conditions: 95%
For me this means I don’t ride my rimbrake aero bike with cf rims in the wet and my climbing bike with rimbrakes and alu rime is tiring in long descents in the wet.
Lou
On 11/12/2023 10:05 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you
accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "
roads in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some
surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
(from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
#1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
#2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little
probably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it#3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection would
in the back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would beThis all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the bikes
All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.That's not even remotely right.
Tubes are delivered as cylinders and any miters are cut as
needed for each job (or each series).
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg
Miters can be damned-near-perfect or merely approximate [1]
by automated milling machine or by hand. Here's an original
factory tube and my replacement for example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/hk20f.jpg
Automated process for brazed joints (often induction
fixture, not flame) is very old technology (~100 years).
Trek was using it in the 1980s (back when they made steel
frames in USA) to successfully lower payroll expense.
https://www.ambrell.com/blog/the-evolution-and-history-of-induction-heating-part-1
p.s. Premium tube was once stamped with manufacturer, model
and gauge at the butt[2] end.
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_566,h_424,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0278_97b8ba6a48126aea2c57293187e86512ce257f50.jpg
Modern tube has a paint smear (gauges noted by color) on the
butt end. At any rate a tape measure finds the tube midpoint
and resting the tube there shows which end is thicker or
which butt is longer. This is not rocket science. Even
automated systems do it.
[1] as with anything else time is money, tooling is money,
skilled operator attention is money, etc.
[2]or longer butt for DB tube
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Of being near a cell phone tower which is half the ANT+ frequency so can interfere with the ANT signal. (here's where Liebermann tells us that isn't possible because he has so much experience as an engineer)
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 8:57:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On 11/12/2023 10:05 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where
accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "
roads in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff
between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some >>> surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory
here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that
(from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I
made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled
welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
#1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
#2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little
probably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it#3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection would
in the back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would beThis all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the bikes
All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.That's not even remotely right.
Tubes are delivered as cylinders and any miters are cut as
needed for each job (or each series).
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg
Miters can be damned-near-perfect or merely approximate [1]
by automated milling machine or by hand. Here's an original
factory tube and my replacement for example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/hk20f.jpg
Automated process for brazed joints (often induction
fixture, not flame) is very old technology (~100 years).
Trek was using it in the 1980s (back when they made steel
frames in USA) to successfully lower payroll expense.
https://www.ambrell.com/blog/the-evolution-and-history-of-induction-heating-part-1
p.s. Premium tube was once stamped with manufacturer, model
and gauge at the butt[2] end.
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_566,h_424,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0278_97b8ba6a48126aea2c57293187e86512ce257f50.jpg
Modern tube has a paint smear (gauges noted by color) on the
butt end. At any rate a tape measure finds the tube midpoint
and resting the tube there shows which end is thicker or
which butt is longer. This is not rocket science. Even
automated systems do it.
[1] as with anything else time is money, tooling is money,
skilled operator attention is money, etc.
[2]or longer butt for DB tube
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
But we seem to be having a lot of disagreements that have to do with nothing at all. I was left with the idea that Lou's speed drop had to do with something very specific until he said that the only other sensor he was using was his heart rate monitor.So his speed drop on his overpass was nothing more than radio interference. Aircraft approach radios could be possible source for that. Of being near a cell phone tower which is half the ANT+ frequency so can interfere with the ANT signal. (here's where
On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 5:29:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:you can build a steel or aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or lack of) of steel.
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 8:57:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/12/2023 10:05 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 7:22:19 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/11/2023 6:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:55:24 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/11/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a bicycle frame? It is now to the point where
accidents" (like falling over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to friction. This is
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike automobiles can be involved in very minor "
roads in Africa and China where a large part of their production goes.And does it 24 hours per day, every day, exactly the same.Besides the more laborious design, machining and setup
processes (not merely welding), a going concern has to pay
for energy, supplies and materials. Don't forget rent,
utilities, taxes and maintenance. Then there's the tradeoff >>>>>> between time and capital tooling. Amortize those expenses
over some number of sales and it doesn't look much like a
gravy train in most cases.
Tooling, machining and such are spread over the numbers of bikes which can run into the thousands making the cost of these things minimal at best.
Artisan shop (up to low hundreds per year) $20K~$50K. Modern
automated facility such as Panasonic Osaka, hundreds of
millions of dollars.
Automated machinery is an interesting subject. Years ago I did some >>> surveys for a U.S. consulting firm and visited the Toyota factory >>> here. They had just installed a new automated welding machine that >>> (from memory) welded axle housings into the deferential housing. I >>> made a comment about how it must be cheaper then employing skilled >>> welders and they replied, "Yes. And it makes perfect welds every
time".
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
#1 John is a pure unadulterated bullshiter. Anyone that would hire him to "consult" on anything couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
#2 Why would Toyota weld the axle housing onto the differential case when the majority of the production is 4 wheel drive which requires a hinged connection? Do you suppose they only automate the single wheel drive assembly line? There are little
probably be done by a human welder anyway. I haven't looked under a car in years but the older cars use to pressure form the steel axle housing and then bolt is onto the differential case. This would far more easily be automated for production. And it#3 Welding an axle casing to the differential housing could hardly be called automation at all since it is nothing more than automating the actual welding (which can be easily done with resistance) and the turning of the initial connection would
bikes in the back of the shop. Production bikes all have standard sizes meaning that cutting the tube lengths are normally done AT THE TUBING manufacturer because otherwise you would be cutting off the butting or in the case of aluminum - you would beThis all had to do with automating bicycle construction. Metal construction is a snap. Clarence Witt built the bikes for his racing team and as a custom builder, it took more time to get the measurements from his team riders than building the
All the bike manufacturer is doing is cutting the crescent ends and brazing. Brazing is an art but it can be learned in a day or two and most mistakes can be fixed by a competent brazier. So braziers are cheap.That's not even remotely right.
Tubes are delivered as cylinders and any miters are cut as
needed for each job (or each series).
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg
Miters can be damned-near-perfect or merely approximate [1]
by automated milling machine or by hand. Here's an original
factory tube and my replacement for example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/hk20f.jpg
Automated process for brazed joints (often induction
fixture, not flame) is very old technology (~100 years).
Trek was using it in the 1980s (back when they made steel
frames in USA) to successfully lower payroll expense.
https://www.ambrell.com/blog/the-evolution-and-history-of-induction-heating-part-1
p.s. Premium tube was once stamped with manufacturer, model
and gauge at the butt[2] end.
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_566,h_424,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/9e2024_61edb531bb8f4a2599776ad36a82c462~mv2.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0278_97b8ba6a48126aea2c57293187e86512ce257f50.jpg
Modern tube has a paint smear (gauges noted by color) on the
butt end. At any rate a tape measure finds the tube midpoint
and resting the tube there shows which end is thicker or
which butt is longer. This is not rocket science. Even
automated systems do it.
[1] as with anything else time is money, tooling is money,
skilled operator attention is money, etc.
[2]or longer butt for DB tube
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
monitor. So his speed drop on his overpass was nothing more than radio interference. Aircraft approach radios could be possible source for that. Of being near a cell phone tower which is half the ANT+ frequency so can interfere with the ANT signal. (here'But we seem to be having a lot of disagreements that have to do with nothing at all. I was left with the idea that Lou's speed drop had to do with something very specific until he said that the only other sensor he was using was his heart rate
Nope, I told you I use a speedsensor, a HRM, a power meter, a Di2 wireless sensor and a Garmin rearlight/radar on that bike but no specific cadance sensor. They all work fine on that spot except the speedsensor. My troubleshooting capabilities say thatit has something to do with a disrupted magnetic field. How I don’t know.
Lou
Lou, in all likelihood you wouldn't notice any change in anything but your speed reading. Radio interference doesn't have to be exactly on same frequency as ANT+ and the encoding of signals and the reaction to dead spots can be different from sensor tosensor. Something like a cell tower can block ALL radio signals up close as could aircraft landing radio and radar. Would you notice a drop in your heart rate if you were looking at your speed? The speed sensor is most likely to fall with interference
There are so likely for errors to occur that SRAM and Shimano wireless use their own protocols and power levels.
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 23:35:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>The kids locally use there trainers to near lock the rear wheel, down the
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing >>>>> and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a
On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or >>>>> aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super
lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now >>>>> building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or
lack of) of steel.
can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like >>>>> running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they
automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling
over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at >>>>> all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to >>>>> friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on >>>>> the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal
but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that
manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing >>>>> for them.
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous >>>> really.
I'm not so sure about that, if you limit it to "in the wet" as I had a
bike with "V brakes" that would lock either or both wheels coasting
down a hill in the rain. At probably 25 or so kph (I was afraid to
lock up the wheels and skid at a faster speed).
local near vertical hill.
I can if if wish (but why?) lock the wheels on the MTB and by that I do
mean lock the wheels not simply slow or reach tip over point.
The point is that if you can stop the wheel from turning you have
applied all the stopping force that the bicycle is capable of
providing and stopping then becomes a matter of the tires and the
pavement. Or the mud I suppose (:-)
And "on a par" is again a rather nebulas statement. In somewhere
approaching 50 years of riding on a bicycle I can only remember one
really, truly, emergency stop. With rim, probably side pull, brakes I
was in traffic and a taxi stopped in front of me. Cars on both side so
couldn't turn to avoid the taxi. I grabbed the brakes and the rear
wheel came off the ground which scared me even more, I eased up on the
brakes and hit the taxi although at a much slower speed.
Note that I'm being very specific in my comments here. If you want to
go wandering off in the muck and mire then perhaps discs are superior.
I really don't know as I figure that as the Highway Gods have given us
paved roads I'll use them.
A awful lot of my riding is on tarmac, even so disks are useful as ever not >> needed but a nice want, for the commute itÂ’s a lot easier and less
maintenance, on the gravel bike even on paved roads, fair bit more control >> and power, again thatÂ’s like rather than need.
Roger Merriman
This "less maintenance" thing is, honestly, rather puzzling. I've been
riding with rim brakes for somewhere in the region of 40 years or
maybe longer and I can't remember ever having and problems with
brakes. Nor, for that matter with bicycles in general, after all they
are a rather simple mechanical device.
As for more control and power? How is it possible to have more power
then stopping the wheel from turning? And control? What does that
mean" You can go down a hill safely? I was going down hills safely
when I was 12 years old with nothing but a rear wheel "coaster"brake.
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 23:35:48 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>The kids locally use there trainers to near lock the rear wheel, down the >> local near vertical hill.
wrote:
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 12:07:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:01:59?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/11/2023 9:50 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:that think that a little more than one hour's labor welding or brazing >>>>> and $100 worth of materials. would allow them to charge $7500 for a >>>>> bicycle frame? It is now to the point where you can build a steel or >>>>> aluminum bike in the larger sizes to the UCI weight limit and super >>>>> lightweight is losing it's appeal to racing teams where they are now >>>>> building racing carbon fiber frames to the mimic the stiffness (or >>>>> lack of) of steel.
What do you suppose is going through the heads of people
automobiles can be involved in very minor "accidents" (like falling >>>>> over at the coffee shop) and break a line leaving you with no brake at >>>>> all on that line. If the brake hose gets loose from the plastic
I don't like disc brakes and I certainly do not agree that they >>>>> can stop you any better than rim brakes wet or dry. I also do not like >>>>> running hoses for hydraulic brakes on a bicycle which unlike
glue-on, it can also rub against the tire and rub a hole in it due to >>>>> friction. This is another thing to inspect before a ride. Of course on >>>>> the latest bikes the hoses, like the wires, are completely internal >>>>> but new bike sales are now in the trash can due to the prices that >>>>> manufacturers think that they can charge. That will be a major failing >>>>> for them.
The idea that rim brakes are on par with disk in the wet, is ridiculous >>>> really.
I'm not so sure about that, if you limit it to "in the wet" as I had a >>> bike with "V brakes" that would lock either or both wheels coasting
down a hill in the rain. At probably 25 or so kph (I was afraid to
lock up the wheels and skid at a faster speed).
I can if if wish (but why?) lock the wheels on the MTB and by that I do >> mean lock the wheels not simply slow or reach tip over point.
The point is that if you can stop the wheel from turning you have
applied all the stopping force that the bicycle is capable of
providing and stopping then becomes a matter of the tires and the pavement. Or the mud I suppose (:-)
And "on a par" is again a rather nebulas statement. In somewhere
approaching 50 years of riding on a bicycle I can only remember one
really, truly, emergency stop. With rim, probably side pull, brakes I >>> was in traffic and a taxi stopped in front of me. Cars on both side so >>> couldn't turn to avoid the taxi. I grabbed the brakes and the rear
wheel came off the ground which scared me even more, I eased up on the >>> brakes and hit the taxi although at a much slower speed.
Note that I'm being very specific in my comments here. If you want to >>> go wandering off in the muck and mire then perhaps discs are superior. >>> I really don't know as I figure that as the Highway Gods have given us >>> paved roads I'll use them.
A awful lot of my riding is on tarmac, even so disks are useful as ever not
needed but a nice want, for the commute it’s a lot easier and less
maintenance, on the gravel bike even on paved roads, fair bit more control
and power, again that’s like rather than need.
Roger Merriman
This "less maintenance" thing is, honestly, rather puzzling. I've been riding with rim brakes for somewhere in the region of 40 years or
maybe longer and I can't remember ever having and problems with
brakes. Nor, for that matter with bicycles in general, after all they
are a rather simple mechanical device.
As for more control and power? How is it possible to have more power
then stopping the wheel from turning? And control? What does that
mean" You can go down a hill safely? I was going down hills safely
when I was 12 years old with nothing but a rear wheel "coaster"brake.
In the same way that Tom’s unbelievable top speeds, the idea that in the dry your locking wheels with rims and sliding down the road wheels locked even with something as woefully grippy as Gatorskins isn’t believable, being able to get the rear to start to scrub is one thing and to feel the bike start to endo is one thing locking is another all together.
Roger Merriman
One of the things that I have done MANY times in my riding career is lock the front wheel completely. I even have to be careful not to do this in several places in the immediate area. There is a drop down Golf Links Rd that at the bottom intersectionwith Foothill Rd., you have to apply the brakes so hard at the 18% grade that you can EASILY lock the front wheel and have to be careful not to.
In the same way that Tom’s unbelievable top speeds, the idea that in the dry your locking wheels with rims and sliding down the road wheels locked even with something as woefully grippy as Gatorskins isn’t believable...
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