https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:31:25 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:I used discs and never liked them. The very last thing in the world that road bikes needed was "power brakes".
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistakeThere is a lot of truth in that article.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Lou
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:31:25 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
There is a lot of truth in that article.
Lou
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
That’s an opinion piece dressed as fact, and essentially click bate.
road disks appeared before uci legal it largely was consumer led, be that
the commuters who wanted a fast road bike that didn’t need counties to stop on wet grimy days, and so on.
Was plenty of roadies who wanted disks and has been for decades if folks listened. As ever depends on the circles folks move in, but certainly the roadies I know have wanted disks as for number of different reasons.
If anything I’m unconvinced that for most road races that disks advantages/disadvantages particularly noting the slower wheel changes.
Over cobbles and white gravel roads yes clearly.
I guess that though could get 28/30mm rim bikes the braking at least for
the Pros might not be as good ie long flexing dual pivots?
Roger Merriman
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
That’s an opinion piece dressed as fact, and essentially click bate.Oh come on Roger, there was a reason to use discs on MTB's, but the only reason for using them on road bikes was to sell roadies superlight and very expensive carbon wheels. If you wish to believe marketing go right ahead.
road disks appeared before uci legal it largely was consumer led, be that the commuters who wanted a fast road bike that didn’t need counties to stop
on wet grimy days, and so on.
Was plenty of roadies who wanted disks and has been for decades if folks listened. As ever depends on the circles folks move in, but certainly the roadies I know have wanted disks as for number of different reasons.
If anything I’m unconvinced that for most road races that disks advantages/disadvantages particularly noting the slower wheel changes.
Over cobbles and white gravel roads yes clearly.
I guess that though could get 28/30mm rim bikes the braking at least for
the Pros might not be as good ie long flexing dual pivots?
Roger Merriman
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 9:01:19 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:Oh come on Roger, there was a reason to use discs on MTB's, but the only reason for using them on road bikes was to sell roadies superlight and
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
That’s an opinion piece dressed as fact, and essentially click bate.
road disks appeared before uci legal it largely was consumer led, be that
the commuters who wanted a fast road bike that didn’t need counties to stop
on wet grimy days, and so on.
Was plenty of roadies who wanted disks and has been for decades if folks
listened. As ever depends on the circles folks move in, but certainly the
roadies I know have wanted disks as for number of different reasons.
If anything I’m unconvinced that for most road races that disks
advantages/disadvantages particularly noting the slower wheel changes.
Over cobbles and white gravel roads yes clearly.
I guess that though could get 28/30mm rim bikes the braking at least for
the Pros might not be as good ie long flexing dual pivots?
Roger Merriman
very expensive carbon wheels. If you wish to believe marketing go right ahead.
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30 years ago.
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some >> roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some >> roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 9:01:19 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:Oh come on Roger, there was a reason to use discs on MTB's, but the only reason for using them on road bikes was to sell roadies superlight and very expensive carbon wheels. If you wish to believe marketing go right ahead.
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
That’s an opinion piece dressed as fact, and essentially click bate.
road disks appeared before uci legal it largely was consumer led, be that >> the commuters who wanted a fast road bike that didn’t need counties to stop
on wet grimy days, and so on.
Was plenty of roadies who wanted disks and has been for decades if folks >> listened. As ever depends on the circles folks move in, but certainly the >> roadies I know have wanted disks as for number of different reasons.
If anything I’m unconvinced that for most road races that disks
advantages/disadvantages particularly noting the slower wheel changes.
Over cobbles and white gravel roads yes clearly.
I guess that though could get 28/30mm rim bikes the braking at least for >> the Pros might not be as good ie long flexing dual pivots?
Roger Merriman
Lots of folks have over the years noted the performance differences, long before the first road bikes with disks, everything from commuters who would like better wet braking performance, to roadies into the soggy hills.
The market for a bike with wide road tires plus disk brakes has been
clearly there for decades, over the years various club mates or other roadies have essentially said I’d like a bike with disks, why can’t they move the technology over.
The pros are very traditional and conservative but amateurs generally are not could see this as disks became more common, folks who raced or aspired tended to rims folks even club cyclists with less performance or at least racing focus had disks.
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30 years ago.
Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30 >> years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and probably age as well.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30 >> years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and probably age as well.
But signs have been there for a while such as since the turn of century maybe earlier some CX bikes with a more general use than pure racing, such as the Tricross ie for dirt and pavement ie gravel bikes of sorts.
And just folks chatting at the cafe stop essentially why on earth don’t road bikes have disks?
Roger Merriman
On 10/23/2023 11:01 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
That’s an opinion piece dressed as fact, and essentially click bate.
road disks appeared before uci legal it largely was consumer led, be that
the commuters who wanted a fast road bike that didn’t need counties to stop >> on wet grimy days, and so on.
Was plenty of roadies who wanted disks and has been for decades if folks
listened. As ever depends on the circles folks move in, but certainly the
roadies I know have wanted disks as for number of different reasons.
If anything I’m unconvinced that for most road races that disks
advantages/disadvantages particularly noting the slower wheel changes.
Over cobbles and white gravel roads yes clearly.
I guess that though could get 28/30mm rim bikes the braking at least for
the Pros might not be as good ie long flexing dual pivots?
Roger Merriman
Yes, it's opinion.
OTOH Here's the 1966 Paris Roubaix during which no one died
from lack of braking power:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/parisrou.jpg
Mostly Mafac Racer (this is pre-Record, pre-Mafac Comp).
Also note back in the dark ages people actually dressed like
adults when out in public.
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and probably age as well.The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30 >>>>> years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
probably age as well.
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled the
entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:but it was no fun.
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >> > >>That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
probably age as well.
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed
Lou
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and >>>> probably age as well.
The idea it was marketing is a myth itÂ’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more
and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:but it was no fun.
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and probably age as well.The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We needPartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed
road disk brakes!"
LouAre you implying that if you had disc brakes that same descent would have been fun?
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 4:18:03 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:Painful as it is I have to agree with Frank. No one was asking for better brakes than the better rim brakes.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and probably age as well.
But signs have been there for a while such as since the turn of century maybe earlier some CX bikes with a more general use than pure racing, such as the Tricross ie for dirt and pavement ie gravel bikes of sorts.
And just folks chatting at the cafe stop essentially why on earth don’t road bikes have disks?
Roger MerrimanI like my road bike with disk brakes and it took bit to get used to the concept. But if the truth be known at my age and what I do, rim brakes. tubes in the tires, and 11 speeds are more than enough.
Deacon mark
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 6:09:38 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:but it was no fun.
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
The idea it was marketing is a myth it’s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and probably age as well.The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We needPartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed
road disk brakes!"
LouAre you implying that if you had disc brakes that same descent would have been fun?
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:but it was no fun.
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We needPartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed
road disk brakes!"
AMuzi, 2023-10-23 17:31+0200:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
The fact that rim brakes are technically disk brakes with large disks
make me wonder: what makes disk brakes so efficient?
With cable-actuated V-brakes, equipped with all-weather pads, correctly maintained and adjusted, I already get a pretty good braking power. Not
sure if it would suffice to block the front wheel under a heavy rain, I should try to make sure. ;-)
Anyway, do you know what allows disk brake to be more powerful?
Especially considering that they work closer to the wheel axle, where it should be harder to stop the rotation.
AMuzi, 2023-10-23 17:31+0200:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
The fact that rim brakes are technically disk brakes with large disks
make me wonder: what makes disk brakes so efficient?
With cable-actuated V-brakes, equipped with all-weather pads, correctly maintained and adjusted, I already get a pretty good braking power. Not
sure if it would suffice to block the front wheel under a heavy rain, I should try to make sure. ;-)
Anyway, do you know what allows disk brake to be more powerful?
Especially considering that they work closer to the wheel axle, where it should be harder to stop the rotation.
Cheers,
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured thePartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:12:03 AM UTC-4, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
AMuzi, 2023-10-23 17:31+0200:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
The fact that rim brakes are technically disk brakes with large disks
make me wonder: what makes disk brakes so efficient?
With cable-actuated V-brakes, equipped with all-weather pads, correctly
maintained and adjusted, I already get a pretty good braking power. Not
sure if it would suffice to block the front wheel under a heavy rain, I
should try to make sure. ;-)
Anyway, do you know what allows disk brake to be more powerful?
Especially considering that they work closer to the wheel axle, where it
should be harder to stop the rotation.
I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter what
their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.
What allows disk brakes to be more powerful? It's a little complicated, but I'd say
the key fact is that the rotor always stays almost perfectly flat. Here's why:
Force at the pads (disk or caliper) is a simple multiple of hand force on the lever.
Whether hydraulic or mechanical, that multiple is inversely proportional to the
ratio of the relevant distances. That is, if you want pad force to be four times hand
force, you have to put up with only one fourth as much pad motion. Want eight times
as much force? Then you can have only 1/8 as much motion.
Rim brakes have a practical lower limit to their motion, because rims tend to be
at least a little out of true from time to time. The pads have to spread enough to
not scrape. But brake disks are less likely to be out of true. You can have far less
pad travel with disks, so far more force multiplication.
Some of that advantage gets eaten up because the disk radius is far less than wheel
radius, but it usually still works out to less hand force for a given deceleration. And
the greater pad force on the disk (compared to the rim) means if moisture does
hit the disk, it's easily squeezed away.
Still, almost no road riders really need less hand force than what's available using
good quality rim brakes. The push (mostly by Shimano) for easier stopping is yet another
example of the bike industry chasing diminishing returns.
- Frank Krygowski
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:48:01 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:12:03?AM UTC-4, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: >>>> AMuzi, 2023-10-23 17:31+0200:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
The fact that rim brakes are technically disk brakes with large disks
make me wonder: what makes disk brakes so efficient?
With cable-actuated V-brakes, equipped with all-weather pads, correctly >>>> maintained and adjusted, I already get a pretty good braking power. Not >>>> sure if it would suffice to block the front wheel under a heavy rain, I >>>> should try to make sure. ;-)
Anyway, do you know what allows disk brake to be more powerful?
Especially considering that they work closer to the wheel axle, where it >>>> should be harder to stop the rotation.
I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter what
their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.
Nope, I did it, once. Riding on the tops, hands on the brakes, maybe
10- 12 mph in dense traffic and someone flagged a taxi and he stopped,
maybe 10 feet in front of me. I grabbed the brakes and I certainly
felt the rear wheel lift. My reaction was to release the brakes and I
hit the taxi. My front tire and his rear bumper.
I suggest that your Gee forces are suspect as in reality the G force
would be dependent on the road surface, the brakes, and the amount of
rubber on the road. Try braking on ice versus braking on clean, dry,
asphalt (:-)
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured thePartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of >>> every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions >>> of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You >>> NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:but it was no fun.
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie >groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured thePartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:12:03?AM UTC-4, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
AMuzi, 2023-10-23 17:31+0200:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
The fact that rim brakes are technically disk brakes with large disks
make me wonder: what makes disk brakes so efficient?
With cable-actuated V-brakes, equipped with all-weather pads, correctly
maintained and adjusted, I already get a pretty good braking power. Not
sure if it would suffice to block the front wheel under a heavy rain, I
should try to make sure. ;-)
Anyway, do you know what allows disk brake to be more powerful?
Especially considering that they work closer to the wheel axle, where it >>> should be harder to stop the rotation.
I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter what
their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I’d assume that rims will remain >common for a while yet!
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured theOn Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>>That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and >>>>> probably age as well.
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more
and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have >cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no >significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past
100 years. Nothing has changed that.
On 10/24/2023 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured thePartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual
bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of >>>> every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions >>>> of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You >>>> NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
No, there are very significant benefits of dual brakes and multiple
gears over coaster brake single speed bikes, at least for the most
common types of riding. (Cruiser bikes still have their place for very limited use.)
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past
100 years. Nothing has changed that.
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Name calling, shouting and misspelling. Such a class act!
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so IÂ’d assume that rims will remain >> common for a while yet!
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured theOn Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>>>That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and >>>>>> probably age as well.
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have
taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more
and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have >> cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes.
The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they
must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain >>> common for a while yet!
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured theOn Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>>>>That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and >>>>>>> probably age as well.
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have >>>>>>>> taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more
and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have >>> cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes.
The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they
must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better
bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly
at that price point!
Roger Merriman
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:48:01 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 11:12:03?AM UTC-4, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: >>>> AMuzi, 2023-10-23 17:31+0200:
https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/disc-brakes-took-over-the-cycling-world-heres-why-that-was-a-mistake
The fact that rim brakes are technically disk brakes with large disks
make me wonder: what makes disk brakes so efficient?
With cable-actuated V-brakes, equipped with all-weather pads, correctly >>>> maintained and adjusted, I already get a pretty good braking power. Not >>>> sure if it would suffice to block the front wheel under a heavy rain, I >>>> should try to make sure. ;-)
Anyway, do you know what allows disk brake to be more powerful?
Especially considering that they work closer to the wheel axle, where it >>>> should be harder to stop the rotation.
I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter what
their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.
Nope, I did it, once. Riding on the tops, hands on the brakes, maybe
10- 12 mph in dense traffic and someone flagged a taxi and he stopped,
maybe 10 feet in front of me. I grabbed the brakes and I certainly
felt the rear wheel lift. My reaction was to release the brakes and I
hit the taxi. My front tire and his rear bumper.
I suggest that your Gee forces are suspect as in reality the G force
would be dependent on the road surface, the brakes, and the amount of
rubber on the road. Try braking on ice versus braking on clean, dry,
asphalt (:-)
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:20:11 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>>> friends who toured theOn Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have >>>>>>>>>> taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 >>>>>>>>>> years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national
bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
probably age as well.
entire Skyline Drive with full
camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the
college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled >>>>>>>> around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more >>>>>> and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
common for a while yet!
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have
cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes.
The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they
must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better >>> bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly >>> at that price point!
Roger Merriman
My Avid BB7s are highly rated.
Where back in the day, trikes and similar seem to be the last bastion of >cable disks for what ever reason.
Paul components get lots of rave reviews though this is from the >hipster/retro grouch lot so I’d question their reliability!
Roger Merriman
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:20:11 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? TheOn Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and >>>>>>>> probably age as well.
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have >>>>>>>>> taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 >>>>>>>>> years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national
bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full
camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on
coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the
college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled >>>>>>> around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more >>>>> and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
common for a while yet!
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have >>>> cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes.
The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they
must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better
bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly >> at that price point!
Roger Merriman
My Avid BB7s are highly rated.
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:44:55 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:20:11 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>>>> friends who toured the
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have >>>>>>>>>>> taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 >>>>>>>>>>> years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national
bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
probably age as well.
entire Skyline Drive with full
camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the
college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled >>>>>>>>> around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more >>>>>>> and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
common for a while yet!
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have
cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes.
The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they
must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better >>>> bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly >>>> at that price point!
Roger Merriman
My Avid BB7s are highly rated.
Where back in the day, trikes and similar seem to be the last bastion of >>cable disks for what ever reason.
Paul components get lots of rave reviews though this is from the >>hipster/retro grouch lot so I’d question their reliability!
Roger Merriman
I got over 34000 miles on my original avid BB7 MTN calipers and
they're still fully functional. I only changed them out for the road
BB7s because of my short pull brake levers.
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured thePartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of >>> every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions >>> of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You >>> NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
On 10/24/2023 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, LouNo one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred
Holtman wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year
span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The
friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the
Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing
team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they
still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones
who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides
with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility
riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And
absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I
descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum
rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was
no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which
some unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such
examples. But riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with
various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we
suddenly get to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
technology, ie
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years
noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI
came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
I grew up in a small New England town where all the
bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high
school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking
and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a
single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
No, there are very significant benefits of dual brakes and
multiple gears over coaster brake single speed bikes, at
least for the most common types of riding. (Cruiser bikes
still have their place for very limited use.)
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes
confer no significant benefit. They haven't been needed on
road bikes for the past 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE
BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Name calling, shouting and misspelling. Such a class act!
I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter what
their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.
On 10/24/2023 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured thePartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual
bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of >>>> every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions >>>> of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You >>>> NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake
header crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front
wheel contact, the force needed can be small (short bike,
low bars with long stem) or large (Cat Tricycle).
Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking, tire
slip isn't going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:07:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:44:55 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:20:11 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>>> wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>>>>> friends who toured the
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have >>>>>>>>>>>> taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 >>>>>>>>>>>> years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national
bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem
easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
probably age as well.
entire Skyline Drive with full
camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the
college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled >>>>>>>>>> around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, >>>>>>>>>> or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero >>>>>>>>>> cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>>>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun. >>>>>>>>>
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more >>>>>>>> and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
common for a while yet!
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have
cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes. >>>>>> The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they >>>>>> must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better >>>>> bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly
at that price point!
Roger Merriman
My Avid BB7s are highly rated.
Where back in the day, trikes and similar seem to be the last bastion of >>> cable disks for what ever reason.
Paul components get lots of rave reviews though this is from the
hipster/retro grouch lot so IÂ’d question their reliability!
Roger Merriman
I got over 34000 miles on my original avid BB7 MTN calipers and
they're still fully functional. I only changed them out for the road
BB7s because of my short pull brake levers.
I should point out that the reason for them being used on Catrikes is
because Catrikes and similar don't have forks.
Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:20:11 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>> friends who toured the
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have >>>>>>>>> taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 >>>>>>>>> years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national
bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
probably age as well.
entire Skyline Drive with full
camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the
college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled >>>>>>> around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more >>>>> and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either.
common for a while yet!
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have
cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes.
The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they
must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better >> bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly
at that price point!
Roger Merriman
Presently on my gravel bike, I have cable actuated hydraulic disc brakes. They add nothing to the bike.My Avid BB7s are highly rated.
Where back in the day, trikes and similar seem to be the last bastion of cable disks for what ever reason.
Paul components get lots of rave reviews though this is from the hipster/retro grouch lot so I’d question their reliability!
Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/24/2023 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote: >>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie >>> groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some unusual >>>> bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party >>> with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
No, there are very significant benefits of dual brakes and multiple
gears over coaster brake single speed bikes, at least for the most
common types of riding. (Cruiser bikes still have their place for very limited use.)
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around
a car park type of thing?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Name calling, shouting and misspelling. Such a class act!
Roger Merriman
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 1:03:00 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:front wheel and rear wheel at the same time with rim brakes if I didn't know how to use rim brakes.
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 23:01:43 -0400, Frank KrygowskiAgain, I find myself agreeing with Krygowski, that you can lock a rim brake isn't an opinion but outright fact. Even with 3 inch wide knobbies, I could EASILY lock the front wheel with V-brakes and there's no question that I can RIGHT NOW lock the
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
.....at least in your opinion.
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past >>> 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
That rim brakes have been around for 100 years before someone decided that they didn't work and installed disc's simply shows that they are nothing more than marketing. As I said before, the ONLY reason that disc brakes came out is because you can'tmake thin expensive carbon wheels stand rim brakes and manufacturers stopped believing in "lighter is better" years ago now. Plus it has finally broken through to them that aerodynamics is preposterous for 99% of the riders in the world who can only go
Most of the "modern" cycling craze is entirely marketing. Although electric shifting certainly is better it is totally over-priced. It will be a very cold day in hell when I pay $2,000 for a performance bike, let alone $10,000. Because of the way Iride with a lot of hills, I don't much care for Frank's choice in bikes and components. But that works for him.
Frank Krygowski, 2023-10-24 18:33+0200:
I'm skeptical of any claims of cyclists locking their front wheels, no matter whatThis is what I meant. To me, locking the front wheel means going over
their brakes. Locking the front wheel would be imposing a deceleration close to
one 'gee' (9.8 m/s^2). That's essentially impossible with a normal bike, because
you'd go over the handlebars at a deceleration of 0.7 gee.
the handlebar. :-)
--
Tanguy
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 23:01:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Again, I find myself agreeing with Krygowski, that you can lock a rim brake isn't an opinion but outright fact. Even with 3 inch wide knobbies, I could EASILY lock the front wheel with V-brakes and there's no question that I can RIGHT NOW lock the frontBut for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no >significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past >100 years. Nothing has changed that......at least in your opinion.
On 10/24/2023 10:01 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/24/2023 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, LouNo one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred
Holtman wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year
span? The friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The
friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the
Rockies on coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing
team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they
still traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones
who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides
with me, or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility
riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And
absolutely zero cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I
descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum
rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was
no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which
some unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such
examples. But riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with
various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we
suddenly get to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
technology, ie
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years
noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI
came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
I grew up in a small New England town where all the
bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high
school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking
and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a
single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
No, there are very significant benefits of dual brakes and
multiple gears over coaster brake single speed bikes, at
least for the most common types of riding. (Cruiser bikes
still have their place for very limited use.)
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes
confer no significant benefit. They haven't been needed on
road bikes for the past 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE
BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Name calling, shouting and misspelling. Such a class act!
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On 10/24/2023 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? ThePartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on
coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It
was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still
traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered
local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me,
or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero
cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some
unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of >>>> every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions >>>> of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You >>>> NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake header
crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front wheel contact, the
force needed can be small (short bike, low bars with long stem) or
large (Cat Tricycle).
Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking, tire slip isn't
going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:07:29 -0400, Catrike RiderI’d assume they still use one of 3 standard out there though ie
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:44:55 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:20:11 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>>>>>> friends who toured the
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have >>>>>>>>>>>>> taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 >>>>>>>>>>>>> years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national
bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including
some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem
easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
probably age as well.
entire Skyline Drive with full
camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the
college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled >>>>>>>>>>> around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, >>>>>>>>>>> or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances. >>>>>>>>>>>
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero >>>>>>>>>>> cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun. >>>>>>>>>>
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more >>>>>>>>> and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either. >>>>>>>>>
common for a while yet!
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have
cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes. >>>>>>> The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they >>>>>>> must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are
shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better >>>>>> bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly
at that price point!
Roger Merriman
My Avid BB7s are highly rated.
Where back in the day, trikes and similar seem to be the last bastion of >>>> cable disks for what ever reason.
Paul components get lots of rave reviews though this is from the
hipster/retro grouch lot so I?d question their reliability!
Roger Merriman
I got over 34000 miles on my original avid BB7 MTN calipers and
they're still fully functional. I only changed them out for the road
BB7s because of my short pull brake levers.
I should point out that the reason for them being used on Catrikes is
because Catrikes and similar don't have forks.
Post/IS/Flat mounts, than lack of forks.
The choice of cable disk is likely down to it’s expected use, ie it’s
expected to be used like you use it, so unlikely to need more power, and >cables are more tolerant of folding.
Adaptive MTB such as Bowhead, use hydraulic and often seriously powerful >callipers with huge rotors!
https://youtu.be/Kqx8jnp7YHw?si=DCS9d1aPf1zo5hU2
By some margin more expensive and capable, is a hand cycle version as well >I’m told. Note the ability to lean though things, makes for a very capable >machine, granted Martyn is hugely skilled rider.
Roger Merriman
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:42:52 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:I've seen attempts at building a leaning pedal powered trike, but the
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 07:07:29 -0400, Catrike RiderI’d assume they still use one of 3 standard out there though ie
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 10:44:55 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 08:20:11 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>>> wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:15:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 06:09:36 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanOldest roadie disk bikes are what 2013, so I?d assume that rims will remain
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 5:18:03?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>>>>>>> friends who toured the
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:12:21?PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:That is almost certainly sign of the types of riders you ride with and
The idea it was marketing is a myth it?s been an untapped desire for some
roadies for few decades now, noting for MTB disks went mainstream some 30
years ago.
Nope. If road disks were an "untapped desire" it wouldn't have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken a few decades for
bike manufacturers to use road disks.
I've been heavily involved in a good sized bike club for over 40 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. Back in the
1980s, I used to attend national
bike rallies. I rode with the fast guys, including >>>>>>>>>>>>>> some guys who regularly raced. I never, ever, not once heard anyone claim they
wanted road disk brakes. I almost never heard anyone complain about their rim
brakes at all, other than the odd instance of brakes squealing - a problem
easily
fixed, as described here in the past few weeks.
- Frank Krygowski
probably age as well.
entire Skyline Drive with full
camping gear? The friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the
college's racing team? (It was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still traveled
around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, >>>>>>>>>>>> or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero >>>>>>>>>>>> cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun. >>>>>>>>>>>
Lou
I see lots of road bikes on my bike rides, and disks are getting more
and more popular, but rim brakes are not going away, either. >>>>>>>>>>
common for a while yet!
And the lower/mid end bikes are mostly sold with rim brakes, some may have
cable operated disks but lot have rim brakes.
Roger Merriman
I'm seeing more and more cable disc brakes on "Super market" bikes. >>>>>>>> The ones selling for $100 or less. I had thought that somehow they >>>>>>>> must be cheaper to make, for some reason.
Yup get disks only on such bikes, in unsurprisingly news they are >>>>>>> shockingly bad! And arguably for most folks, cheap rim brakes are better
bet than cable disks which are for most worse of both worlds, particularly
at that price point!
Roger Merriman
My Avid BB7s are highly rated.
Where back in the day, trikes and similar seem to be the last bastion of >>>>> cable disks for what ever reason.
Paul components get lots of rave reviews though this is from the
hipster/retro grouch lot so I?d question their reliability!
Roger Merriman
I got over 34000 miles on my original avid BB7 MTN calipers and
they're still fully functional. I only changed them out for the road
BB7s because of my short pull brake levers.
I should point out that the reason for them being used on Catrikes is
because Catrikes and similar don't have forks.
Post/IS/Flat mounts, than lack of forks.
The choice of cable disk is likely down to it’s expected use, ie it’s
expected to be used like you use it, so unlikely to need more power, and
cables are more tolerant of folding.
Adaptive MTB such as Bowhead, use hydraulic and often seriously powerful
callipers with huge rotors!
https://youtu.be/Kqx8jnp7YHw?si=DCS9d1aPf1zo5hU2
By some margin more expensive and capable, is a hand cycle version as well >> I’m told. Note the ability to lean though things, makes for a very capable >> machine, granted Martyn is hugely skilled rider.
Roger Merriman
trikes are already so much heavier than diamond frames that the added
parts just makes them too heavy.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past
100 years. Nothing has changed that.
a car park type of thing?
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks.I asked why? He liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of hydraulic disks.
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
On 10/24/2023 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote: >>>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>>>>>No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? ThePartly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain
friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on
coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It
was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still
traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered
local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me,
or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero >>>>>>> cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a >>>>>> bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some
unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of >>>>> every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions >>>>> of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You >>>>> NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party >>>> with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake header
crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front wheel contact, the
force needed can be small (short bike, low bars with long stem) or
large (Cat Tricycle).
Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking, tire slip isn't
going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.
I think that was the basis of Mr. Krygowski's calculation. There are
two torques about the front wheel contact patch that must sum to zero if
the attitude of the bike is not changing:
m*a*h + m*g*l = 0
m is mass, a is acceleration (negative in case of braking), g is the acceleration due to gravity, h is the vertical distance between the
front wheel contact patch and the system center of gravity, l is the horizontal distance. I assume he used some eyeballed or recalled set of distances to come up with his figure of 0.7, but of course these vary
with the system. The rider has some control as well, by moving his
center of gravity rearwards and down.
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's "taste" is heavily >influenced by marketing. (If that weren't true, marketing would not
exist.) And the marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of _course_ you want
disk brakes..." with no discussion at all of advantages vs.
disadvantages, except in occasional online articles.
I asked why? He liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of hydraulic disks.We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks.
That paragraph was much more rational than most discussion of brakes.
Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked the feel." He's allowed to like the
feel, of course, but it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical
decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his friend
had not considered, and showed a possible alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of reaching a
decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
On 10/25/2023 12:55 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
On 10/24/2023 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:I grew up in a small New England town where all the
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, LouNo one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred
Holtman wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year
span? The
friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The
friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the
Rockies on
coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing
team? (It
was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they
still
traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones
who entered
local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile
rides with me,
or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility
riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and
distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And
absolutely zero
cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I
descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum
rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was
no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which
some
unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such
examples. But riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years
with various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we
suddenly get to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
technology, ie
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years
noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI
came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in
high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking
and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a
single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE
BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake
header
crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front wheel
contact, the
force needed can be small (short bike, low bars with long
stem) or
large (Cat Tricycle).
Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking, tire
slip isn't
going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.
I think that was the basis of Mr. Krygowski's
calculation. There are
two torques about the front wheel contact patch that must
sum to zero if
the attitude of the bike is not changing:
  m*a*h + m*g*l = 0
m is mass, a is acceleration (negative in case of
braking), g is the
acceleration due to gravity, h is the vertical distance
between the
front wheel contact patch and the system center of
gravity, l is the
horizontal distance. I assume he used some eyeballed or
recalled set of
distances to come up with his figure of 0.7, but of course
these vary
with the system. The rider has some control as well, by
moving his
center of gravity rearwards and down.
I used memory of past calculations. I actually assigned this
as a class problem, using fairly detailed measurements.
BTW, height of the center of mass of bike+rider is important
in the calculation. So, how would you determine that? It was
another class problem.
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2, AMuzi
wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's "taste"
is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that weren't true,
marketing would not exist.) And the marketing for disk
brakes is as deceptive as the marketing for helmets. It's
now at the level of "Of _course_ you want disk brakes..."
with no discussion at all of advantages vs. disadvantages,
except in occasional online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the
consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told
him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic rim
brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best brakes
IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in that
direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most discussion
of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked the feel."
He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but it's a pretty
fluffy way of making a technical decision. Then Lou
apparently described some disadvantages his friend had not
considered, and showed a possible alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around >> a car park type of thing?
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past >>> 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides, probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I admit that former r.b.tech poster Jay Beattie got good benefit from
road disk brakes. That's because he commuted to work essentially every
day on the hilly side of rainy Portland Oregon. But he's very atypical.
How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-road
problems did you experience?
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about technology >and how it works…
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2, AMuzi
wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's "taste"
is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that weren't true,
marketing would not exist.) And the marketing for disk
brakes is as deceptive as the marketing for helmets. It's
now at the level of "Of _course_ you want disk brakes..."
with no discussion at all of advantages vs. disadvantages,
except in occasional online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the
consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told
him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic rim
brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best brakes
IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in that
direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most discussion
of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked the feel."
He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but it's a pretty
fluffy way of making a technical decision. Then Lou
apparently described some disadvantages his friend had not
considered, and showed a possible alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom dispositive.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:the past
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for
around100 years. Nothing has changed that.Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride
I think you're echoing Tom's thought processes. He would claim thata car park type of thing?
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides,
probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride them, and my MTB friends have them. Which is a very different thing to
using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had upgrades or part swapped.
Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious abouttechnology
and how it works…
what aI already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-roadI guess a decade or so with various road bikes, pre that would have been mostly older MTB or gents bikes and similar kids/teen bikes.
problems did you experience?
In terms of dual pivot or single pivots or cantilever or even V brakes, certainly this century, I was well aware that they where outclassed in
terms of braking performance, and thus control as thats essentially
more powerful brakes does it allows less force to activate and thuseasier
to modulate ie to keep a brake at the limit, that if your having togrip a
lever.road. The
As with disk brakes was some differences between same callipers but on different bikes, probably down to levers.
The canti on the CX were the only utterly woeful brakes, even on
single pivots were a bit lacking and dual pivots a decent upgrade.
All of them where to differing degrees woeful...
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's "taste" is heavily
influenced by marketing. (If that weren't true, marketing would not
exist.) And the marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of _course_ you want
disk brakes..." with no discussion at all of advantages vs.
disadvantages, except in occasional online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of mine wanted
to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why because he has currently a
nice light weight TREK with V brakes and without that nonsense of
cheap front suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the
consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told him he would
be better off with Magura hydraulic rim brakes. Same nice feel
without the maintenance of hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are
the best brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in that
direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most discussion of brakes.
Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked the feel." He's allowed to like the
feel, of course, but it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical
decision. Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his friend
had not considered, and showed a possible alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of reaching a
decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes has left me
'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given product or
product area at the margin but is seldom dispositive.
On 10/25/2023 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 12:55 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
On 10/24/2023 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote: >>>>>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, FrankNo one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie >>>>>> groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk >>>>>> equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
Krygowski wrote:
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km >>>>>>>> in the
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>>>> friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who
traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It >>>>>>>>> was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still
traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered >>>>>>>>> local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, >>>>>>>>> or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero >>>>>>>>> cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I
wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some
unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But
riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various >>>>>>> versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get >>>>>>> to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the
party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple >>>>> gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed >>>>> bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T >>>>> KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake header
crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front wheel contact, the >>>> force needed can be small (short bike, low bars with long stem) or
large (Cat Tricycle).
Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking, tire slip isn't
going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.
I think that was the basis of Mr. Krygowski's calculation. There are
two torques about the front wheel contact patch that must sum to zero if >>> the attitude of the bike is not changing:
  m*a*h + m*g*l = 0
m is mass, a is acceleration (negative in case of braking), g is the
acceleration due to gravity, h is the vertical distance between the
front wheel contact patch and the system center of gravity, l is the
horizontal distance. I assume he used some eyeballed or recalled set of >>> distances to come up with his figure of 0.7, but of course these vary
with the system. The rider has some control as well, by moving his
center of gravity rearwards and down.
I used memory of past calculations. I actually assigned this as a
class problem, using fairly detailed measurements.
BTW, height of the center of mass of bike+rider is important in the
calculation. So, how would you determine that? It was another class
problem.
Now that's interesting!
And dynamic; we all change our position/height/weight over front wheel
etc, and even stand to climb. Constant change is more usual than a time trialist's well practiced fixed posture.
There are many search hits but I didn't find much for actual results. I
think this simple diagram of 'center of length/center of height' is irrelevant for example:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dimensions-of-the-bicycle-including-center-of-mass_fig1_330392063
I thought this elegant: https://ucscphysicsdemo.sites.ucsc.edu/physics-5a6a/finding-the-center-of-mass-for-irregularly-shaped-objects/
but for a cyclist center of mass would probably be approximate and conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past >>> 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
a car park type of thing?
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides, probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride them, and my MTB friends have them. Which is a very different thing to
using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had upgrades or part swapped.
Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about technology and how it works…
I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I admit that former r.b.tech poster Jay Beattie got good benefit from
road disk brakes. That's because he commuted to work essentially every
day on the hilly side of rainy Portland Oregon. But he's very atypical.
Sounds quite typical really for many a European city ie soggy and very few are pan flat, of the cycling cities only Cambridge in the uk is that, rest have hills.
How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-road
problems did you experience?
I guess a decade or so with various road bikes, pre that would have been mostly older MTB or gents bikes and similar kids/teen bikes.
In terms of dual pivot or single pivots or cantilever or even V brakes, certainly this century, I was well aware that they where outclassed in
terms of braking performance, and thus control as thats essentially what a more powerful brakes does it allows less force to activate and thus easier to modulate ie to keep a brake at the limit, that if your having to grip a lever.
As with disk brakes was some differences between same callipers but on different bikes, probably down to levers.
The canti on the CX were the only utterly woeful brakes, even on road. The single pivots were a bit lacking and dual pivots a decent upgrade.
All of them where to differing degrees woeful, in the rain less so on a
ride compared to commuting/utility riding mainly that you could predict braking, where as urban riding do occasionally need to brake hard, the CX was almost certainly had the least powerful brakes but did at least have much greater grip margins ie 35mm tires vs 23/25mm so less skittish in the rain.
And let’s not forget cables don’t last and need replacement, pads need adjustment as they wear and depending on if you have a cartridge or not readjusting new pads.
Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into the working, they are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember last time any of
mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!
That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice always note but for most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side effects ie larger tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though the longer reach dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable this is? I don’t know
as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots sized for that.
Roger Merriman
On 10/25/2023 6:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:the past
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for
around100 years. Nothing has changed that.Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride
a car park type of thing?
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides,
probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride them, and my MTB friends have them. Which is a very different thing to using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had upgrades or part swapped.
Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.I think you're echoing Tom's thought processes. He would claim that
because I don't own a 15 pound bike, I can't possibly comment on things
like his insane top speed claims.
Engineers have to be able to assess equipment without getting years of >experience with it. They do that by knowledge of physics. One relevant
bit of physics is that a standard bike's deceleration is limited by risk
of pitchover; and that limit can easily be reached with most standard
caliper brakes. You don't need disks for that.
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious abouttechnology
and how it works…
Of course! But I do know how disk brakes work. I don't have to own them
to know that.
I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-roadI guess a decade or so with various road bikes, pre that would have been mostly older MTB or gents bikes and similar kids/teen bikes.
problems did you experience?
In terms of dual pivot or single pivots or cantilever or even V brakes, certainly this century, I was well aware that they where outclassed in terms of braking performance, and thus control as thats essentiallywhat a
more powerful brakes does it allows less force to activate and thuseasier
to modulate ie to keep a brake at the limit, that if your having togrip a
lever.
As with disk brakes was some differences between same callipers but on different bikes, probably down to levers.
The canti on the CX were the only utterly woeful brakes, even onroad. The
single pivots were a bit lacking and dual pivots a decent upgrade.
All of them where to differing degrees woeful...
You're using words like "outclassed" or "woeful" but you're not
describing actual _problems_ caused by rim brakes.
You seem to like the lower hand force typical of disks. Fine, I guess,
if that's your preference. But squeezing with 5 pounds force instead of
3 pounds force is not an actual problem for normal people.
Did you ever have a crash or even a near miss because your rim brakes >wouldn't stop the bike?
Personally, I had one real problem on exactly one occasion. My wife and
I were riding in very heavy pouring rain, on the first cheap ten speeds
we bought in 1973 or so. They had very flexible "Balilla" center pull
brakes, and chrome steel rims pockmarked with hundreds of dimples that I >later realized acted as reservoirs of water. We tried braking for a turn
and had almost zero braking power. But buying a pretty nice Raleigh with >smooth aluminum rims fixed that problem acceptably. It's never occurred >again, despite thousands of miles of rain riding. (I don't like it, but
I do ride in rain from time to time.)
On 10/25/2023 6:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:the past
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for
around100 years. Nothing has changed that.Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride
I think you're echoing Tom's thought processes. He would claim thata car park type of thing?
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides,
probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride
them, and my MTB friends have them. Which is a very different thing to
using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used
hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had
upgrades or part swapped.
Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.
because I don't own a 15 pound bike, I can't possibly comment on things
like his insane top speed claims.
Engineers have to be able to assess equipment without getting years of experience with it. They do that by knowledge of physics. One relevant
bit of physics is that a standard bike's deceleration is limited by risk
of pitchover; and that limit can easily be reached with most standard
caliper brakes. You don't need disks for that.
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious abouttechnology
and how it works…
Of course! But I do know how disk brakes work. I don't have to own them
to know that.
what a
I already know lever force isI guess a decade or so with various road bikes, pre that would have been
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-road
problems did you experience?
mostly older MTB or gents bikes and similar kids/teen bikes.
In terms of dual pivot or single pivots or cantilever or even V brakes,
certainly this century, I was well aware that they where outclassed in
terms of braking performance, and thus control as thats essentially
more powerful brakes does it allows less force to activate and thuseasier
to modulate ie to keep a brake at the limit, that if your having togrip a
lever.road. The
As with disk brakes was some differences between same callipers but on
different bikes, probably down to levers.
The canti on the CX were the only utterly woeful brakes, even on
single pivots were a bit lacking and dual pivots a decent upgrade.
All of them where to differing degrees woeful...
You're using words like "outclassed" or "woeful" but you're not
describing actual _problems_ caused by rim brakes.
You seem to like the lower hand force typical of disks. Fine, I guess,
if that's your preference. But squeezing with 5 pounds force instead of
3 pounds force is not an actual problem for normal people.
Did you ever have a crash or even a near miss because your rim brakes wouldn't stop the bike?
Personally, I had one real problem on exactly one occasion. My wife and
I were riding in very heavy pouring rain, on the first cheap ten speeds
we bought in 1973 or so. They had very flexible "Balilla" center pull
brakes, and chrome steel rims pockmarked with hundreds of dimples that I later realized acted as reservoirs of water. We tried braking for a turn
and had almost zero braking power. But buying a pretty nice Raleigh with smooth aluminum rims fixed that problem acceptably. It's never occurred again, despite thousands of miles of rain riding. (I don't like it, but
I do ride in rain from time to time.)
On 10/25/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
but for a cyclist center of mass would probably be approximate and
conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'
Yes, it's variable. I no longer have the results (I passed most of my
notes on to my successors) but as I recall, we calculated the location
for a normal riding position and for a position with the rider's butt
scooted back as far as possible.
No other takers on how to determine center of mass height? Come on, guys!
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's "taste" is heavily
influenced by marketing. (If that weren't true, marketing would not
exist.) And the marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of _course_ you want
disk brakes..." with no discussion at all of advantages vs.
disadvantages, except in occasional online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of mine wanted
to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why because he has currently a
nice light weight TREK with V brakes and without that nonsense of
cheap front suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained the
consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I told him he would
be better off with Magura hydraulic rim brakes. Same nice feel
without the maintenance of hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are
the best brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in that
direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most discussion of brakes.
Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked the feel." He's allowed to like the
feel, of course, but it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical
decision. Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his friend
had not considered, and showed a possible alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of reaching a
decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes has left me
'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given product or
product area at the margin but is seldom dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its expansion,
albeit at different speeds depending on the medium and the country. A
late 2022 projection estimated that ad media owners' revenue worldwide
would grow by about six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S.
dollars in 2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of billions of
dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
On 10/25/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 12:55 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
On 10/24/2023 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:I grew up in a small New England town where all the
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4,No one is saying you need disks, but it is a
Lou Holtman wrote:
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
Partly because they didn't know what they are
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+
year span? The
friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The
friend who traveled
the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over
the Rockies on
coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's
racing team? (It
was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but
they still
traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The
ones who entered
local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile
rides with me,
or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the
utility riders, the
hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and
distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And
absolutely zero
cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
missing in certain
circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I
descended 15 km in the
pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum
rims. I wished for a
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it
was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in
which some
unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such
examples. But riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years
with various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we
suddenly get to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
preferred technology, ie
groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years
noted that disk
equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI
came to the party
with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
bicycles were
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in
high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel
braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see
a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE
BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake
header
crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front
wheel contact, the
force needed can be small (short bike, low bars with
long stem) or
large (Cat Tricycle).
Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking,
tire slip isn't
going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.
I think that was the basis of Mr. Krygowski's
calculation. There are
two torques about the front wheel contact patch that
must sum to zero if
the attitude of the bike is not changing:
  m*a*h + m*g*l = 0
m is mass, a is acceleration (negative in case of
braking), g is the
acceleration due to gravity, h is the vertical distance
between the
front wheel contact patch and the system center of
gravity, l is the
horizontal distance. I assume he used some eyeballed or
recalled set of
distances to come up with his figure of 0.7, but of
course these vary
with the system. The rider has some control as well, by
moving his
center of gravity rearwards and down.
I used memory of past calculations. I actually assigned
this as a class problem, using fairly detailed measurements.
BTW, height of the center of mass of bike+rider is
important in the calculation. So, how would you determine
that? It was another class problem.
Now that's interesting!
And dynamic; we all change our position/height/weight over
front wheel etc, and even stand to climb. Constant change
is more usual than a time trialist's well practiced fixed
posture.
There are many search hits but I didn't find much for
actual results. I think this simple diagram of 'center of
length/center of height' is irrelevant for example:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Dimensions-of-the-bicycle-including-center-of-mass_fig1_330392063
I thought this elegant:
https://ucscphysicsdemo.sites.ucsc.edu/physics-5a6a/finding-the-center-of-mass-for-irregularly-shaped-objects/
but for a cyclist center of mass would probably be
approximate and conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'
Yes, it's variable. I no longer have the results (I passed
most of my notes on to my successors) but as I recall, we
calculated the location for a normal riding position and for
a position with the rider's butt scooted back as far as
possible.
No other takers on how to determine center of mass height?
Come on, guys!
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 6:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:the past
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no >>>>>> significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for
around100 years. Nothing has changed that.Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride
I think you're echoing Tom's thought processes. He would claim thata car park type of thing?
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides, >>>> probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I >>>> knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride
them, and my MTB friends have them. Which is a very different thing to
using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used >>> hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had >>> upgrades or part swapped.
Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.
because I don't own a 15 pound bike, I can't possibly comment on things
like his insane top speed claims.
Engineers have to be able to assess equipment without getting years of
experience with it. They do that by knowledge of physics. One relevant
bit of physics is that a standard bike's deceleration is limited by risk
of pitchover; and that limit can easily be reached with most standard
caliper brakes. You don't need disks for that.
That’s a woefully simplistic model and thus wrong mainly due to its huge simplification. To reach parity a rim brake needs the speed to be be lower
so less force, and for it to be dry and generally it to be a clean simple model not the dirty real world, let alone that disks modulation allow finer control at the limit ie to keep the bike at the edge of pitchover.
Doesn’t sound like it sounds like your repeated comments made as they fit your narrative.
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious abouttechnology
and how it works…
Of course! But I do know how disk brakes work. I don't have to own them
to know that.
what a
I already know lever force isI guess a decade or so with various road bikes, pre that would have been >>> mostly older MTB or gents bikes and similar kids/teen bikes.
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that >>>> bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of >>>> the other bikes either, including the tandem.
How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-road
problems did you experience?
In terms of dual pivot or single pivots or cantilever or even V brakes,
certainly this century, I was well aware that they where outclassed in
terms of braking performance, and thus control as thats essentially
more powerful brakes does it allows less force to activate and thuseasier
to modulate ie to keep a brake at the limit, that if your having togrip a
lever.road. The
As with disk brakes was some differences between same callipers but on
different bikes, probably down to levers.
The canti on the CX were the only utterly woeful brakes, even on
single pivots were a bit lacking and dual pivots a decent upgrade.
All of them where to differing degrees woeful...
You're using words like "outclassed" or "woeful" but you're not
describing actual _problems_ caused by rim brakes.
Most folks ride within the limits of the brakes, so knowing that the bike ability to stop and how it changes if wet. Disks are much more powerful so you can brake later, and are only mildly reduced in the wet. Essentially always had to baby rim brakes.
Only a few times did have almost zero brakes all low speed no hazard
moments as well I was aware of the brakes lack of power in wet conditions.
Most folks seem to like the feel of hydraulic disks, and well the
You seem to like the lower hand force typical of disks. Fine, I guess,
if that's your preference. But squeezing with 5 pounds force instead of
3 pounds force is not an actual problem for normal people.
Did you ever have a crash or even a near miss because your rim brakes
wouldn't stop the bike?
Personally, I had one real problem on exactly one occasion. My wife and
I were riding in very heavy pouring rain, on the first cheap ten speeds
we bought in 1973 or so. They had very flexible "Balilla" center pull
brakes, and chrome steel rims pockmarked with hundreds of dimples that I
later realized acted as reservoirs of water. We tried braking for a turn
and had almost zero braking power. But buying a pretty nice Raleigh with
smooth aluminum rims fixed that problem acceptably. It's never occurred
again, despite thousands of miles of rain riding. (I don't like it, but
I do ride in rain from time to time.)
performance of said brakes and there general lack of maintenance needed.
Are a few retro grouches clearly and some cheaper bikes really would do better with some rim brakes and so on, though please to see still being
sold in that market, does mean they can’t upgrade to disks but I suspect the number who would are low.
I did or rather cable to hydraulic as well was early so very few hydraulic road groupset about and they do look very dated now even 2018 or so as technology has changed.
Roger Merriman
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview >>
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
Am Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:13:05 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
On 10/25/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
[...]
but for a cyclist center of mass would probably be approximate and
conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'
Yes, it's variable. I no longer have the results (I passed most of my
notes on to my successors) but as I recall, we calculated the location
for a normal riding position and for a position with the rider's butt
scooted back as far as possible.
No other takers on how to determine center of mass height? Come on, guys!
While riding? IMHO an approximation or a calculation for an intervall is
good enough, for something as varying as that.*)
A dispute including that question arose in 1995 during an argument in
the German language bicycle newsgroup. A guy warned everyone about the
grave danger of fatal falls caused by braking hard and then going over
the bars, resulting in sudden death. All bicycles should have mandatory "brake modulators," a spring element that limits the force that can be applied. Crazy. But there are indeed still bicycles seen now and then
having such elements in the brake cables.
Anyway, I was interested in those questions. How much braking
deceleration is necessary for this? Under what conditions is a topple
even possible?
The first concrete question is then, of course, whether or when the
resulting force vector is above or below the axis of rotation, being the front wheels axis.
Unfortunately, I've lost my notes too, but from memory ...
Based on the geometry of my road bike <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg> and my body weight at
the time, I estimated that my front wheel would not slip when braking on
dry and clean asphalt because the rear wheel would lift off first. A
further estimation of the energy necessary to lift the whole mass - its center of mass, that is - to the max, above the front wheel axis,
followed by a conversion to it's speed equivalent of that mass moving horizontally resulted in about 12 km/h. In short, riding with less that
12 km/h shouldn't cause a topple. The rear wheel will be lifted, but
after the bike coming to a full stop, it will just come down again, in reverse direction.
To verify my estimation, I tried it somewhat slower, 10 km/h perhaps and indeed, it happened just as calculated. What came somewhat unexpected
was the experience that the whole event took quite some time - enough
time to somewhat control it. However, it is essential not to apply the
brake too abruptly. After all, it takes energy and time to set the mass
in rotation, too. In addition, it helps to somewhat control it while
going down. Last but not least, don't do it while cornering, even
slightly. A bicycle wheel doesn't like lateral force. I had to retrue a
wheel after lifting the back wheel only a few centimeters in an
emergency brake.
After that initial experiment, I lost all fear of the rear wheel lifting
off, when riding one of my road bikes. It is rarely necessary or
usefull, but sometimes after an emergency brake, I was glad to gain that little less braking distance.
Disclaimer: Calculation and experience apply to road (racing) bicycles geometry, utility bicycles with long wheelbase or heavy luggage on the
rear carrier are a different matter. Even with a road bike I'd suggest
to experiment carefully instead of trying to calculate and to apply the result blindly. Calculation is good for having a baseline what to try, though.
Notes
*) Build a large version of a balance board <https://fitsy.in/uploads/products/312/4ac88fc45d5c40dc9e74e62834e626fd.jpg> and position a rider and his/her bike in a balanced position there. Or
just use a board large enough, a football and four guys on the four
edges, for getting that in balance.
Going over the bars
<https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/over-the-bars.html>
Am Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:13:05 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
On 10/25/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
[...]
but for a cyclist center of mass would probably be approximate and
conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'
Yes, it's variable. I no longer have the results (I passed most of my
notes on to my successors) but as I recall, we calculated the location
for a normal riding position and for a position with the rider's butt
scooted back as far as possible.
No other takers on how to determine center of mass height? Come on, guys!
While riding? IMHO an approximation or a calculation for an intervall is
good enough, for something as varying as that.*)
A dispute including that question arose in 1995 during an argument in
the German language bicycle newsgroup. A guy warned everyone about the
grave danger of fatal falls caused by braking hard and then going over
the bars, resulting in sudden death. All bicycles should have mandatory "brake modulators," a spring element that limits the force that can be applied. Crazy. But there are indeed still bicycles seen now and then
having such elements in the brake cables.
Anyway, I was interested in those questions. How much braking
deceleration is necessary for this? Under what conditions is a topple
even possible?
The first concrete question is then, of course, whether or when the
resulting force vector is above or below the axis of rotation, being the front wheels axis.
Unfortunately, I've lost my notes too, but from memory ...
Based on the geometry of my road bike <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg> and my body weight at
the time, I estimated that my front wheel would not slip when braking on
dry and clean asphalt because the rear wheel would lift off first. A
further estimation of the energy necessary to lift the whole mass - its center of mass, that is - to the max, above the front wheel axis,
followed by a conversion to it's speed equivalent of that mass moving horizontally resulted in about 12 km/h. In short, riding with less that
12 km/h shouldn't cause a topple. The rear wheel will be lifted, but
after the bike coming to a full stop, it will just come down again, in reverse direction.
To verify my estimation, I tried it somewhat slower, 10 km/h perhaps and indeed, it happened just as calculated. What came somewhat unexpected
was the experience that the whole event took quite some time - enough
time to somewhat control it. However, it is essential not to apply the
brake too abruptly. After all, it takes energy and time to set the mass
in rotation, too. In addition, it helps to somewhat control it while
going down. Last but not least, don't do it while cornering, even
slightly. A bicycle wheel doesn't like lateral force. I had to retrue a
wheel after lifting the back wheel only a few centimeters in an
emergency brake.
After that initial experiment, I lost all fear of the rear wheel lifting
off, when riding one of my road bikes. It is rarely necessary or
usefull, but sometimes after an emergency brake, I was glad to gain that little less braking distance.
Disclaimer: Calculation and experience apply to road (racing) bicycles geometry, utility bicycles with long wheelbase or heavy luggage on the
rear carrier are a different matter. Even with a road bike I'd suggest
to experiment carefully instead of trying to calculate and to apply the result blindly. Calculation is good for having a baseline what to try, though.
Notes
*) Build a large version of a balance board <https://fitsy.in/uploads/products/312/4ac88fc45d5c40dc9e74e62834e626fd.jpg> and position a rider and his/her bike in a balanced position there. Or
just use a board large enough, a football and four guys on the four
edges, for getting that in balance.
Going over the bars
<https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/over-the-bars.html>
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I think you're echoing Tom's thought processes. He would claim that
because I don't own a 15 pound bike, I can't possibly comment on things
like his insane top speed claims.
Engineers have to be able to assess equipment without getting years of
experience with it. They do that by knowledge of physics. One relevant
bit of physics is that a standard bike's deceleration is limited by risk
of pitchover; and that limit can easily be reached with most standard
caliper brakes. You don't need disks for that.
That’s a woefully simplistic model and thus wrong mainly due to its huge simplification. To reach parity a rim brake needs the speed to be be lower
so less force, and for it to be dry and generally it to be a clean simple model not the dirty real world, let alone that disks modulation allow finer control at the limit ie to keep the bike at the edge of pitchover.
On 10/26/2023 5:13 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:13:05 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
On 10/25/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
[...]
While riding? IMHO an approximation or a calculation for an intervall isbut for a cyclist center of mass would probably be approximate and
conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'
Yes, it's variable. I no longer have the results (I passed most of my
notes on to my successors) but as I recall, we calculated the location
for a normal riding position and for a position with the rider's butt
scooted back as far as possible.
No other takers on how to determine center of mass height? Come on, guys! >>
good enough, for something as varying as that.*)
A dispute including that question arose in 1995 during an argument in
the German language bicycle newsgroup. A guy warned everyone about the
grave danger of fatal falls caused by braking hard and then going over
the bars, resulting in sudden death. All bicycles should have mandatory
"brake modulators," a spring element that limits the force that can be
applied. Crazy. But there are indeed still bicycles seen now and then
having such elements in the brake cables.
Anyway, I was interested in those questions. How much braking
deceleration is necessary for this? Under what conditions is a topple
even possible?
The first concrete question is then, of course, whether or when the
resulting force vector is above or below the axis of rotation, being the
front wheels axis.
Unfortunately, I've lost my notes too, but from memory ...
Based on the geometry of my road bike
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg> and my body weight at
the time, I estimated that my front wheel would not slip when braking on
dry and clean asphalt because the rear wheel would lift off first. A
further estimation of the energy necessary to lift the whole mass - its
center of mass, that is - to the max, above the front wheel axis,
followed by a conversion to it's speed equivalent of that mass moving
horizontally resulted in about 12 km/h. In short, riding with less that
12 km/h shouldn't cause a topple. The rear wheel will be lifted, but
after the bike coming to a full stop, it will just come down again, in
reverse direction.
To verify my estimation, I tried it somewhat slower, 10 km/h perhaps and
indeed, it happened just as calculated. What came somewhat unexpected
was the experience that the whole event took quite some time - enough
time to somewhat control it. However, it is essential not to apply the
brake too abruptly. After all, it takes energy and time to set the mass
in rotation, too. In addition, it helps to somewhat control it while
going down. Last but not least, don't do it while cornering, even
slightly. A bicycle wheel doesn't like lateral force. I had to retrue a
wheel after lifting the back wheel only a few centimeters in an
emergency brake.
After that initial experiment, I lost all fear of the rear wheel lifting
off, when riding one of my road bikes. It is rarely necessary or
usefull, but sometimes after an emergency brake, I was glad to gain that
little less braking distance.
Disclaimer: Calculation and experience apply to road (racing) bicycles
geometry, utility bicycles with long wheelbase or heavy luggage on the
rear carrier are a different matter. Even with a road bike I'd suggest
to experiment carefully instead of trying to calculate and to apply the
result blindly. Calculation is good for having a baseline what to try,
though.
Notes
*) Build a large version of a balance board
<https://fitsy.in/uploads/products/312/4ac88fc45d5c40dc9e74e62834e626fd.jpg> >> and position a rider and his/her bike in a balanced position there. Or
just use a board large enough, a football and four guys on the four
edges, for getting that in balance.
Going over the bars
<https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/over-the-bars.html>
"brake modulators"
Oh, how I hate those pernicious gizmos! Customers assume we
could not make a proper brake adjustment (which, in
fairness, cannot be done with them) and unhappy customers
are a real and present danger to the com0pany.
On 10/26/2023 4:35 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I think you're echoing Tom's thought processes. He would claim that
because I don't own a 15 pound bike, I can't possibly comment on things
like his insane top speed claims.
Engineers have to be able to assess equipment without getting years of
experience with it. They do that by knowledge of physics. One relevant
bit of physics is that a standard bike's deceleration is limited by risk >>> of pitchover; and that limit can easily be reached with most standard
caliper brakes. You don't need disks for that.
That’s a woefully simplistic model and thus wrong mainly due to its huge
simplification. To reach parity a rim brake needs the speed to be be lower >> so less force, and for it to be dry and generally it to be a clean simple
model not the dirty real world, let alone that disks modulation allow finer >> control at the limit ie to keep the bike at the edge of pitchover.
ISTM you're using fuzzy words and hypotheticals. "To reach parity"
regarding what practical effect?
I've successfully panic braked using my touring bike's cantilevers at
over 30 mph. (Sudden deer in the road.) Need to be dry and clean? I've
ridden countless miles in rain and in dirt. Finer control to keep the
bike at the edge of pitchover? I do that with rim brakes. I've taught
others how to do it.
Disks are heavily promoted, very trendy, and often the only choice
offered. But only a tiny proportion of bicyclists get real value out of
disk brakes. That's how bicycling has been able to be done for 100+
years with rim brakes, including with some cyclists pushing the envelope
by doing loaded touring in mountains, road racing at high speeds,
extreme braking for corners during criterium races, cyclocross racing
through mud, riding tandems or triples and more. Yes, muddy mountain
bikers and rainy every-day commuters sometimes do, by reducing rim wear.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:40:56 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/26/2023 5:13 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:13:05 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
On 10/25/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
[...]
While riding? IMHO an approximation or a calculation for an intervall is >>> good enough, for something as varying as that.*)but for a cyclist center of mass would probably be approximate and
conditioned as 'at this moment in time.'
Yes, it's variable. I no longer have the results (I passed most of my
notes on to my successors) but as I recall, we calculated the location >>>> for a normal riding position and for a position with the rider's butt
scooted back as far as possible.
No other takers on how to determine center of mass height? Come on, guys! >>>
A dispute including that question arose in 1995 during an argument in
the German language bicycle newsgroup. A guy warned everyone about the
grave danger of fatal falls caused by braking hard and then going over
the bars, resulting in sudden death. All bicycles should have mandatory
"brake modulators," a spring element that limits the force that can be
applied. Crazy. But there are indeed still bicycles seen now and then
having such elements in the brake cables.
Anyway, I was interested in those questions. How much braking
deceleration is necessary for this? Under what conditions is a topple
even possible?
The first concrete question is then, of course, whether or when the
resulting force vector is above or below the axis of rotation, being the >>> front wheels axis.
Unfortunately, I've lost my notes too, but from memory ...
Based on the geometry of my road bike
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg> and my body weight at
the time, I estimated that my front wheel would not slip when braking on >>> dry and clean asphalt because the rear wheel would lift off first. A
further estimation of the energy necessary to lift the whole mass - its
center of mass, that is - to the max, above the front wheel axis,
followed by a conversion to it's speed equivalent of that mass moving
horizontally resulted in about 12 km/h. In short, riding with less that >>> 12 km/h shouldn't cause a topple. The rear wheel will be lifted, but
after the bike coming to a full stop, it will just come down again, in
reverse direction.
To verify my estimation, I tried it somewhat slower, 10 km/h perhaps and >>> indeed, it happened just as calculated. What came somewhat unexpected
was the experience that the whole event took quite some time - enough
time to somewhat control it. However, it is essential not to apply the
brake too abruptly. After all, it takes energy and time to set the mass
in rotation, too. In addition, it helps to somewhat control it while
going down. Last but not least, don't do it while cornering, even
slightly. A bicycle wheel doesn't like lateral force. I had to retrue a
wheel after lifting the back wheel only a few centimeters in an
emergency brake.
After that initial experiment, I lost all fear of the rear wheel lifting >>> off, when riding one of my road bikes. It is rarely necessary or
usefull, but sometimes after an emergency brake, I was glad to gain that >>> little less braking distance.
Disclaimer: Calculation and experience apply to road (racing) bicycles
geometry, utility bicycles with long wheelbase or heavy luggage on the
rear carrier are a different matter. Even with a road bike I'd suggest
to experiment carefully instead of trying to calculate and to apply the
result blindly. Calculation is good for having a baseline what to try,
though.
Notes
*) Build a large version of a balance board
<https://fitsy.in/uploads/products/312/4ac88fc45d5c40dc9e74e62834e626fd.jpg>
and position a rider and his/her bike in a balanced position there. Or
just use a board large enough, a football and four guys on the four
edges, for getting that in balance.
Going over the bars
<https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/over-the-bars.html>
"brake modulators"
Oh, how I hate those pernicious gizmos! Customers assume we
could not make a proper brake adjustment (which, in
fairness, cannot be done with them) and unhappy customers
are a real and present danger to the com0pany.
I never heard of them, but now, I hate them too.
On 10/25/2023 12:55 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
On 10/24/2023 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:I think that was the basis of Mr. Krygowski's calculation. There
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote: >>>>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie >>>>> groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk >>>>> equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>>> friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It >>>>>>>> was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still
traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered >>>>>>>> local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, >>>>>>>> or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero >>>>>>>> cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some
unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You >>>>>> NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party >>>>> with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple
gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed
bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T
KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake header
crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front wheel contact, the
force needed can be small (short bike, low bars with long stem) or
large (Cat Tricycle).
Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking, tire slip isn't
going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.
are
two torques about the front wheel contact patch that must sum to zero if
the attitude of the bike is not changing:
m*a*h + m*g*l = 0
m is mass, a is acceleration (negative in case of braking), g is the
acceleration due to gravity, h is the vertical distance between the
front wheel contact patch and the system center of gravity, l is the
horizontal distance. I assume he used some eyeballed or recalled set of
distances to come up with his figure of 0.7, but of course these vary
with the system. The rider has some control as well, by moving his
center of gravity rearwards and down.
I used memory of past calculations. I actually assigned this as a
class problem, using fairly detailed measurements.
BTW, height of the center of mass of bike+rider is important in the calculation. So, how would you determine that? It was another class
problem.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/25/2023 12:55 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:note also a fair difference between a emergency stop which aren’t common and predictable hard braking where riders will shift there weight back
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
On 10/24/2023 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:I think that was the basis of Mr. Krygowski's calculation. There
On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:47:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:I grew up in a small New England town where all the bicycles were
On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:09:38?AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote: >>>>>>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 11:50:27?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:No one is saying you need disks, but it is a preferred technology, ie >>>>>> groupsets and bike manufacturers have over the years noted that disk >>>>>> equipped (like for like) outsells rim.
Partly because they didn't know what they are missing in certain >>>>>>>> circumstances. Last holiday in the mountains I descended 15 km in the >>>>>>>> pouring rain on a bike with rim brakes and aluminum rims. I wished for a
The types of riders I ride with? Age over a 40+ year span? The >>>>>>>>> friends who toured the
entire Skyline Drive with full camping gear? The friend who traveled >>>>>>>>> the entire Al-Can highway
by bike? The ones who, like my family, rode over the Rockies on >>>>>>>>> coast to coast rides?
The younger friends who rode on the college's racing team? (It >>>>>>>>> was more of a club,
not officially sponsored by the university, but they still
traveled around an competed
against similar teams from other schools.) The ones who entered >>>>>>>>> local road races
and time trials? The ones who did fast 100+ mile rides with me, >>>>>>>>> or "Survival of the
Fittest" training rides? Not to mention the utility riders, the >>>>>>>>> hundreds of riders taking
part in our club's annual century run or
the countless riders over countless years doing
countless recreational rides of all paces and distances.
Again, roughly zero complaints about brakes. And absolutely zero >>>>>>>>> cries of "We need
road disk brakes!"
bike with hydraulic disk brakes. I managed but it was no fun.
Yet you did it and did it safely enough.
One can always propose some extreme situation in which some
unusual bit of equipment would
be nice to have. Joerg has been very good at such examples. But riders of
every type have done
rides of every type for at least the past 100 years with various versions
of rim brakes. The total
number of miles must be in the billions. How did we suddenly get to "You
NEED road disk brakes"??
The answer is: Marketing.
- Frank krygowski
No marketing needing after all only recently that UCI came to the party >>>>>> with all that exposure for new bikes etc.
Roger Merriman
single speed, coaster brake, models, In fact I was in high school
before I saw a bicycle with front and rear wheel braking and multiple >>>>> gears. Now it is just the opposite and you seldom see a single speed >>>>> bicycle.
Do you suppose it was "marketing" that caused the change?
Or, perhaps a more accurate explanation, "FRANKIE THE BIGGOT DOESN'T >>>>> KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKINGT ABOUT"?
Rider position has a good deal to add to a front brake header
crash. Depending on rider's CG in relation to front wheel contact, the >>>> force needed can be small (short bike, low bars with long stem) or
large (Cat Tricycle).
Because weight shifts to front wheel during braking, tire slip isn't
going to happen in most cases before rear wheel lift.
are
two torques about the front wheel contact patch that must sum to zero if >>> the attitude of the bike is not changing:
m*a*h + m*g*l = 0
m is mass, a is acceleration (negative in case of braking), g is the
acceleration due to gravity, h is the vertical distance between the
front wheel contact patch and the system center of gravity, l is the
horizontal distance. I assume he used some eyeballed or recalled set of >>> distances to come up with his figure of 0.7, but of course these vary
with the system. The rider has some control as well, by moving his
center of gravity rearwards and down.
I used memory of past calculations. I actually assigned this as a
class problem, using fairly detailed measurements.
BTW, height of the center of mass of bike+rider is important in the
calculation. So, how would you determine that? It was another class
problem.
and rear, some bikes are easier to do this with and so on.
I was wondering that. The cg of the bike by itself is easy, because
it's rigid and can be suspended by this or that, but not so for the
combined system. Horizontal position is easy with a scale or scales.
* Suspend the bike + rider on a platform as a pendulum, and time its oscillations? Sounds like fun, but a bit too much of a project.
* Estimate, based on a determination of human cg in a riding-like posture, but lying down? Doesn't seem quantitative enough to inspire.
* Put the bike & rider on an inclined plane, and use scales to measure horizontal position of cg? Rider posture would surely change somewhat from the horizontal position, but sounds doable in a two hour lab.
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 5:06:56 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past >> >>> 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
a car park type of thing?
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides,
probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride
them, and my MTB friends have them. Which is a very different thing to
using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used
hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had
upgrades or part swapped.
Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about technology >> and how it works…
I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
Sounds quite typical really for many a European city ie soggy and very few >> are pan flat, of the cycling cities only Cambridge in the uk is that, rest >> have hills.
I admit that former r.b.tech poster Jay Beattie got good benefit from
road disk brakes. That's because he commuted to work essentially every
day on the hilly side of rainy Portland Oregon. But he's very atypical.
How long did you ride on roads with caliper brakes? What on-roadI guess a decade or so with various road bikes, pre that would have been
problems did you experience?
mostly older MTB or gents bikes and similar kids/teen bikes.
In terms of dual pivot or single pivots or cantilever or even V brakes,
certainly this century, I was well aware that they where outclassed in
terms of braking performance, and thus control as thats essentially what a >> more powerful brakes does it allows less force to activate and thus easier >> to modulate ie to keep a brake at the limit, that if your having to grip a >> lever.
As with disk brakes was some differences between same callipers but on
different bikes, probably down to levers.
The canti on the CX were the only utterly woeful brakes, even on road. The >> single pivots were a bit lacking and dual pivots a decent upgrade.
All of them where to differing degrees woeful, in the rain less so on a
ride compared to commuting/utility riding mainly that you could predict
braking, where as urban riding do occasionally need to brake hard, the CX
was almost certainly had the least powerful brakes but did at least have
much greater grip margins ie 35mm tires vs 23/25mm so less skittish in the >> rain.
And let’s not forget cables don’t last and need replacement, pads need >> adjustment as they wear and depending on if you have a cartridge or not
readjusting new pads.
Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into the working, they >> are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember last time any of
mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!
That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice always note but for
most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side effects ie larger >> tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though the longer reach
dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable this is? I don’t know
as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots sized for that.
Roger Merriman
If I were to buy a new bicycle I'd like one with wide tires, drop
handlebar and if possible hydraulic disk brakes. With disk brakes I
could have black rims and hubs which wouldn't be as visible when I'm
camping in the woods. Plus I wouldn't have to worry about my brake
pads getting grit in them and then grinding against my rims. Also, I
wouldn't have any problem with forward mounted rear panniers hitting
the brake calipers. Lastly I'd have much better stopping in snow and
slush.
I switched from cantilever brakes to V-brakes on my winter bike
because V-brake are far superior in stopping my bike that the properly
set up and adjust cantilever brakes ever were.
Cheers
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview >>
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in anyI wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but
do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the
Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 8:13:53?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:I wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for
breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but
do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the
Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.
Try not to over-simplify. Nobody has said it takes just one advertisement on their
phone.
But marketing campaigns do make a difference. With bikes and components,
the marketing strategies involve far more than cell phone ads. They include >fancy, animated websites, 'technical' articles in cycling magazines, quietly >sponsored reviews online and in print, promotional material delivered to >shops. conversations by sales reps, equipment supplied to sponsored teams, >and much more. And that's just bike stuff.
Does it influence sales? You, John, may pretend to be skeptical. But companies >are betting billions of dollars you're wrong.
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your >rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >road disk brakes?"
- Frank Krygowski
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 20:52:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski ><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 8:13:53?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:I wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for
breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but
do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the
Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.
Try not to over-simplify. Nobody has said it takes just one advertisement on their
phone.
But marketing campaigns do make a difference. With bikes and components, >>the marketing strategies involve far more than cell phone ads. They include >>fancy, animated websites, 'technical' articles in cycling magazines, quietly >>sponsored reviews online and in print, promotional material delivered to >>shops. conversations by sales reps, equipment supplied to sponsored teams, >>and much more. And that's just bike stuff.
Does it influence sales? You, John, may pretend to be skeptical. But companies
are betting billions of dollars you're wrong.
Perhaps so, but why does that bother you so?
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:59:04 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 20:52:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski ><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 8:13:53?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:I wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out >>> and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for >>> breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but >>> do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the
Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.
Try not to over-simplify. Nobody has said it takes just one advertisement on their
phone.
But marketing campaigns do make a difference. With bikes and components, >>the marketing strategies involve far more than cell phone ads. They include
fancy, animated websites, 'technical' articles in cycling magazines, quietly
sponsored reviews online and in print, promotional material delivered to >>shops. conversations by sales reps, equipment supplied to sponsored teams, >>and much more. And that's just bike stuff.
Does it influence sales? You, John, may pretend to be skeptical. But companies
are betting billions of dollars you're wrong.
Perhaps so, but why does that bother you so?I wonder about Frank.
I asked a perfectly valid question, "do people rush out and buy
something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?" I probably
should have asked, do people, of normal intelligence, rush out and buy something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?"
Back in my younger days I smoked cigarettes, like most men in that
era, And I used to see the adds showing "The Marlboro Man", big,
strong Cowboy sort of fellow, implying that real men smoked Marlboro cigarettes. I can't say that it ever induced me to switch cigarette
brands.
But, perhaps I'm unique? After all Frank, and Tom, spend hours and
yards of paper "marketing themselves", trying to convince readers here
of their great importance. Just Imagine, Frank has ridden a bicycle
in ten countries. Can you imagine? Ten countries and only fallen off
three times.
As for disk brakes? Why? My side pull rim brakes work and have worked
for many years now, and yes they do stop in the wet although I prefer
not to ride in the rain. But having said that I ride on roads as I
have no interest in fumbling around in the bushes.
--
Cheers,
John B.
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 20:52:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:And John has been wrong about absolutely everything.
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 8:13:53?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:I wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for
breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but
do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the
Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.
Try not to over-simplify. Nobody has said it takes just one advertisement on their
phone.
But marketing campaigns do make a difference. With bikes and components, >the marketing strategies involve far more than cell phone ads. They include >fancy, animated websites, 'technical' articles in cycling magazines, quietly
sponsored reviews online and in print, promotional material delivered to >shops. conversations by sales reps, equipment supplied to sponsored teams, >and much more. And that's just bike stuff.
Does it influence sales? You, John, may pretend to be skeptical. But companiesPerhaps so, but why does that bother you so?
are betting billions of dollars you're wrong.
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >road disk brakes?"
- Frank Krygowski
On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 12:21:03 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote:brakes, cantilever and hydraulic rim brakes (4 pages):
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:59:04 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 20:52:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski ><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 8:13:53?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:I wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out >>> and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for >>> breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but >>> do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the
Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.
Try not to over-simplify. Nobody has said it takes just one advertisement on their
phone.
But marketing campaigns do make a difference. With bikes and components, >>the marketing strategies involve far more than cell phone ads. They include
fancy, animated websites, 'technical' articles in cycling magazines, quietly
sponsored reviews online and in print, promotional material delivered to >>shops. conversations by sales reps, equipment supplied to sponsored teams,
and much more. And that's just bike stuff.
Does it influence sales? You, John, may pretend to be skeptical. But companies
are betting billions of dollars you're wrong.
Perhaps so, but why does that bother you so?I wonder about Frank.
I asked a perfectly valid question, "do people rush out and buy
something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?" I probably should have asked, do people, of normal intelligence, rush out and buy something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?"
Back in my younger days I smoked cigarettes, like most men in that
era, And I used to see the adds showing "The Marlboro Man", big,
strong Cowboy sort of fellow, implying that real men smoked Marlboro cigarettes. I can't say that it ever induced me to switch cigarette brands.
But, perhaps I'm unique? After all Frank, and Tom, spend hours and
yards of paper "marketing themselves", trying to convince readers here
of their great importance. Just Imagine, Frank has ridden a bicycle
in ten countries. Can you imagine? Ten countries and only fallen off
three times.
As for disk brakes? Why? My side pull rim brakes work and have worked
for many years now, and yes they do stop in the wet although I prefer
not to ride in the rain. But having said that I ride on roads as I
have no interest in fumbling around in the bushes.
--
Cheers,
John B.We just have to admit that disk brakes are marketing driven that will probably stop him. Most products are marketing driven in our economic system. I looked at my on line supplier and I see they still sell various forms of rim brakes; side pull, V
https://www.bike-components.de/en/components/brakes/rim-brakes/?page=1informed before you buy. If you buy the wrong product it is your own fault. The information is out there. Like Andrew always says 'choice is good' and there is plenty of choice nowadays. YMMV.
A new modern frame for rim brakes will be harder to get but I can't blame the frame manufacturers for not keeping two production lines. Do they still sell new cars with carburators instead of fuel injection or with a tape deck? As for every product get
LouLou, think about it. How much of your belief in disc brakes is market driven? Then cost, completed, over 10 times as much. They add NOTHING to the actual braking of your bike - of what value is being able to have the smaller discs clean off slightly
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent road disk brakes?"
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >> road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers >products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. Who
knew he needed a knife made of steel, when obsidian or flint had always >worked so well?
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >> road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. Who
knew he needed a knife made of steel, when obsidian or flint had always worked so well?
On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 5:00:27 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:brakes, cantilever and hydraulic rim brakes (4 pages):
On Friday, October 27, 2023 at 12:21:03 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:59:04 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 20:52:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski ><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 8:13:53?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:I wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest >>> >>>>>> you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for
breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but
do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the >>> Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.
Try not to over-simplify. Nobody has said it takes just one advertisement on their
phone.
But marketing campaigns do make a difference. With bikes and components,
the marketing strategies involve far more than cell phone ads. They include
fancy, animated websites, 'technical' articles in cycling magazines, quietly
sponsored reviews online and in print, promotional material delivered to
shops. conversations by sales reps, equipment supplied to sponsored teams,
and much more. And that's just bike stuff.
Does it influence sales? You, John, may pretend to be skeptical. But companies
are betting billions of dollars you're wrong.
Perhaps so, but why does that bother you so?I wonder about Frank.
I asked a perfectly valid question, "do people rush out and buy something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?" I probably should have asked, do people, of normal intelligence, rush out and buy something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?"
Back in my younger days I smoked cigarettes, like most men in that
era, And I used to see the adds showing "The Marlboro Man", big,
strong Cowboy sort of fellow, implying that real men smoked Marlboro cigarettes. I can't say that it ever induced me to switch cigarette brands.
But, perhaps I'm unique? After all Frank, and Tom, spend hours and
yards of paper "marketing themselves", trying to convince readers here of their great importance. Just Imagine, Frank has ridden a bicycle
in ten countries. Can you imagine? Ten countries and only fallen off three times.
As for disk brakes? Why? My side pull rim brakes work and have worked for many years now, and yes they do stop in the wet although I prefer not to ride in the rain. But having said that I ride on roads as I
have no interest in fumbling around in the bushes.
--
Cheers,
John B.We just have to admit that disk brakes are marketing driven that will probably stop him. Most products are marketing driven in our economic system. I looked at my on line supplier and I see they still sell various forms of rim brakes; side pull, V
get informed before you buy. If you buy the wrong product it is your own fault. The information is out there. Like Andrew always says 'choice is good' and there is plenty of choice nowadays. YMMV.https://www.bike-components.de/en/components/brakes/rim-brakes/?page=1
A new modern frame for rim brakes will be harder to get but I can't blame the frame manufacturers for not keeping two production lines. Do they still sell new cars with carburators instead of fuel injection or with a tape deck? As for every product
faster than a rim? And what bicycle company is not going to be willing to sell you a disc setup for all of that money or pay professional racers to ride them despite so many pro's saying that they don't like them?LouLou, think about it. How much of your belief in disc brakes is market driven? Then cost, completed, over 10 times as much. They add NOTHING to the actual braking of your bike - of what value is being able to have the smaller discs clean off slightly
If you actually like them that is your choice to pay the premium, but how much of that is brain washing when the one supposed advantage is working better in the rain and both rim brakes and discs will lock your wheels and slide your bike out from underyou in the rain? I used a lot of different brands of discs and Shimano was by far the easiest to bleed and set up, but I found no real advantage.
Of course I didn't ride them in the rain but I have ridden rim brakes without problems.
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >>> road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers >>products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >>began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. Who
knew he needed a knife made of steel, when obsidian or flint had always >>worked so well?
Most people understand that one can think highly of a product but
still, for many reasons, have no use for it themselves.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >> road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >>> road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
Well... Frank is a bit weird (:-)
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
But when bicycles became available they really were innovative.
Imagine! A device that lets you move over the ground several times
faster then you can run, without all the problems of keeping a horse,
feeding a horse, cleaning up after a horse. And cheaper then a horse.
On 10/27/2023 6:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
Well... Frank is a bit weird (:-)
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
But when bicycles became available they really were innovative.
Imagine! A device that lets you move over the ground several times
faster then you can run, without all the problems of keeping a horse,
feeding a horse, cleaning up after a horse. And cheaper then a horse.
Yes and more.
Bicycles allowed women for the first time to travel socially
significant distances alone without a horse. For example
Frances Willard, a woman of some despicable opinions and
effect, wrote a charming book about that:
https://www.alibris.com/How-I-Learned-to-Ride-the-Bicycle-Reflections-of-an-Influential-19th-Century-Woman-Frances-Elizabeth-Willard/book/47676175?matches=21
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 18:53:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/27/2023 6:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
Well... Frank is a bit weird (:-)
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
But when bicycles became available they really were innovative.
Imagine! A device that lets you move over the ground several times
faster then you can run, without all the problems of keeping a horse,
feeding a horse, cleaning up after a horse. And cheaper then a horse.
Yes and more.
Bicycles allowed women for the first time to travel socially
significant distances alone without a horse. For example
Frances Willard, a woman of some despicable opinions and
effect, wrote a charming book about that:
https://www.alibris.com/How-I-Learned-to-Ride-the-Bicycle-Reflections-of-an-Influential-19th-Century-Woman-Frances-Elizabeth-Willard/book/47676175?matches=21
I believe that she also argued that the abolishing of alcoholic
beverages would limit the number of crimes committed by "Blacks" as
"black men would commit fewer crimes if denied access to alcohol".
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:31:11 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers >>> products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >>> began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. Who
knew he needed a knife made of steel, when obsidian or flint had always
worked so well?
Most people understand that one can think highly of a product but
still, for many reasons, have no use for it themselves.
As usual Franks "arguments" are fatuous, at best and stupid most of
the time.
Stone "knives" were replaced, not by steel but by some other metal
such as copper or bronze, and later by iron and finally, at long last,
by steel.
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 03:59:04 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 20:52:30 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 8:13:53?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:20:59 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>
On 10/25/2023 11:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:I wonder? Are people so effected by "marketing" that they will run out >>>> and buy something solely because they see a advert on their hand
On 10/25/2023 5:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/25/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 3:12:30?PM UTC+2,
AMuzi wrote:
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest >>>>>>>>>> you. Same braking response wet or dry, more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive. But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This
is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Yes, it's "taste." But as with many items, people's
"taste" is heavily influenced by marketing. (If that
weren't true, marketing would not exist.) And the
marketing for disk brakes is as deceptive as the
marketing for helmets. It's now at the level of "Of
_course_ you want disk brakes..." with no discussion at
all of advantages vs. disadvantages, except in occasional
online articles.
We explained that to Frank multiple times. Colleague of
mine wanted to buy a new commuter bike. I asked why
because he has currently a nice light weight TREK with V
brakes and without that nonsense of cheap front
suspension. He wanted hydraulic disks. I asked why? He
liked the feel of hydraulic disks. OK.... I explained
the consequences of hydraulic disks. That scared him. I
told him he would be better off with Magura hydraulic
rim brakes. Same nice feel without the maintenance of
hydraulic disks. For a commuter these are the best
brakes IMO and highly underrated. He is now looking in
that direction.
That paragraph was much more rational than most
discussion of brakes. Lou asked "Why?" His friend "Liked
the feel." He's allowed to like the feel, of course, but
it's a pretty fluffy way of making a technical decision.
Then Lou apparently described some disadvantages his
friend had not considered, and showed a possible
alternative.
Advantages vs. disadvantages. It's a better method of
reaching a decision than "Ooh, this is trendy!"
The marketing for electric cars, haircuts and disc brakes
has left me 'not interested'. YMMV.
That is to say marketing probably helps (or hurts) a given
product or product area at the margin but is seldom
dispositive.
https://www.statista.com/topics/990/global-advertising-market/#topicOverview
"The global advertising industry expects to continue its
expansion, albeit at different speeds depending on the
medium and the country. A late 2022 projection estimated
that ad media owners' revenue worldwide would grow by about
six percent to a record-high 856 billion U.S. dollars in
2023. The annual figure was forecast to increase more as the
decade unfolds, surpassing one trillion dollars by 2026. "
ISTM that countless companies are betting hundreds of
billions of dollars that marketing increases sales by a LOT.
I think we'd agree that a choice between Coca Cola and Pepsi
or among Ford, GM or Stellantis pickup trucks could well be
influenced at the margin by advertising and promotion.
Making a customer of someone not at all interested in any
given product segment (you with disc brakes, me with
electric cars, etc) is a taller hill to climb.
phone? And yes, I can see someone buying a box of Cheerios to try for
breakfast, just, as I'm sure they occasionally eat eggs and bacon, but >>>> do they buy a second box, or dozen eggs, or do they go back to the
Rice Krispies that they've been eating since they had teeth.
Try not to over-simplify. Nobody has said it takes just one advertisement on their
phone.
But marketing campaigns do make a difference. With bikes and components, >>> the marketing strategies involve far more than cell phone ads. They include >>> fancy, animated websites, 'technical' articles in cycling magazines, quietly
sponsored reviews online and in print, promotional material delivered to >>> shops. conversations by sales reps, equipment supplied to sponsored teams, >>> and much more. And that's just bike stuff.
Does it influence sales? You, John, may pretend to be skeptical. But companies
are betting billions of dollars you're wrong.
Perhaps so, but why does that bother you so?
I wonder about Frank.
I asked a perfectly valid question, "do people rush out and buy
something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?" I probably
should have asked, do people, of normal intelligence, rush out and buy something just because the see an ad on their hand phone?"
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >> road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
On 10/27/2023 8:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 18:53:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/27/2023 6:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
Well... Frank is a bit weird (:-)
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>>>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>>>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
But when bicycles became available they really were innovative.
Imagine! A device that lets you move over the ground several times
faster then you can run, without all the problems of keeping a horse,
feeding a horse, cleaning up after a horse. And cheaper then a horse.
Yes and more.
Bicycles allowed women for the first time to travel socially
significant distances alone without a horse. For example
Frances Willard, a woman of some despicable opinions and
effect, wrote a charming book about that:
https://www.alibris.com/How-I-Learned-to-Ride-the-Bicycle-Reflections-of-an-Influential-19th-Century-Woman-Frances-Elizabeth-Willard/book/47676175?matches=21
I believe that she also argued that the abolishing of alcoholic
beverages would limit the number of crimes committed by "Blacks" as
"black men would commit fewer crimes if denied access to alcohol".
Yes, despicable plus those damned (17,18,19) Amendments, but
a great example that sometimes even the worst among us have
something to offer.
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 18:53:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Frances Willard, a woman of some despicable opinions and
effect...
I believe that she also argued that the abolishing of alcoholic
beverages would limit the number of crimes committed by "Blacks" as
"black men would commit fewer crimes if denied access to alcohol".
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >>> road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems. And
while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell enough
units to amortize their production investments), the improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride much faster and/or
easier with pneumatics and rolling element bearings; they could abandon
high wheelers with chain drive; they could climb previously impossible
hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. WYes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems. And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell enough
units to amortize their production investments), the improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride much faster and/or
easier with pneumatics and rolling element bearings; they could abandon
high wheelers with chain drive; they could climb previously impossible
hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Anyway, I was interested in those questions. How much braking
deceleration is necessary for this? Under what conditions is a topple
even possible?
The first concrete question is then, of course, whether or when the resulting force vector is above or below the axis of rotation, being the front wheels axis.
Unfortunately, I've lost my notes too, but from memory ...
Based on the geometry of my road bike <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg> and my body weight at
the time, I estimated that my front wheel would not slip when braking on
dry and clean asphalt because the rear wheel would lift off first. A
further estimation of the energy necessary to lift the whole mass - its center of mass, that is - to the max, above the front wheel axis,
followed by a conversion to it's speed equivalent of that mass moving horizontally resulted in about 12 km/h. In short, riding with less that
12 km/h shouldn't cause a topple. The rear wheel will be lifted, but
after the bike coming to a full stop, it will just come down again, in reverse direction.
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in
your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used
rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted
to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes
use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers,
and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said
"Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me
to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at
least if the path
were smooth!"Â My guess is *zero*, people just don't think
that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they
wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of
bringing customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had
one. This process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing
arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll
note that the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs.
walking were blatantly obvious. The benefits of wheeled
carriages over travois, etc. were blatantly obvious. No
marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious;
and so were many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as
pneumatic tires, better bearings, chain drives, multiple
gears. Those solved real problems. And while they may have
been marketed (so manufacturers could sell enough units to
amortize their production investments), the improvements
they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride much
faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive;
they could climb previously impossible hills with proper
gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years
road bikes have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare
problems. They still stop well with rim brakes, and avoid
the complexities and incompatibilities inherent in disks.
The only difference noted by most users is lower required
hand force. Meh.
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 20:21:44 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/27/2023 8:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 18:53:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/27/2023 6:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey ShoumanYes and more.
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
Well... Frank is a bit weird (:-)
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by >>>>>> walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>>>>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish >>>>>> someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel >>>>>> myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>>>>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
But when bicycles became available they really were innovative.
Imagine! A device that lets you move over the ground several times
faster then you can run, without all the problems of keeping a horse, >>>>> feeding a horse, cleaning up after a horse. And cheaper then a horse. >>>>
Bicycles allowed women for the first time to travel socially
significant distances alone without a horse. For example
Frances Willard, a woman of some despicable opinions and
effect, wrote a charming book about that:
https://www.alibris.com/How-I-Learned-to-Ride-the-Bicycle-Reflections-of-an-Influential-19th-Century-Woman-Frances-Elizabeth-Willard/book/47676175?matches=21
I believe that she also argued that the abolishing of alcoholic
beverages would limit the number of crimes committed by "Blacks" as
"black men would commit fewer crimes if denied access to alcohol".
Yes, despicable plus those damned (17,18,19) Amendments, but
a great example that sometimes even the worst among us have
something to offer.
Depreciable? Or reality?
Given that "Blacks" (whatever the current politically correct term is)
amount to something in the neighborhood of 12% of the U.S. population
and comment 43% of the violent Crimes https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend
and make up about 36% of the victims.
On 10/27/2023 9:54 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 20:21:44 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/27/2023 8:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 18:53:04 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>
On 10/27/2023 6:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0400, Radey ShoumanYes and more.
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
Well... Frank is a bit weird (:-)
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by >>>>>>> walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish >>>>>>> someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel >>>>>>> myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
But when bicycles became available they really were innovative.
Imagine! A device that lets you move over the ground several times >>>>>> faster then you can run, without all the problems of keeping a horse, >>>>>> feeding a horse, cleaning up after a horse. And cheaper then a horse. >>>>>
Bicycles allowed women for the first time to travel socially
significant distances alone without a horse. For example
Frances Willard, a woman of some despicable opinions and
effect, wrote a charming book about that:
https://www.alibris.com/How-I-Learned-to-Ride-the-Bicycle-Reflections-of-an-Influential-19th-Century-Woman-Frances-Elizabeth-Willard/book/47676175?matches=21
I believe that she also argued that the abolishing of alcoholic
beverages would limit the number of crimes committed by "Blacks" as
"black men would commit fewer crimes if denied access to alcohol".
Yes, despicable plus those damned (17,18,19) Amendments, but
a great example that sometimes even the worst among us have
something to offer.
Depreciable? Or reality?
Given that "Blacks" (whatever the current politically correct term is)
amount to something in the neighborhood of 12% of the U.S. population
and comment 43% of the violent Crimes
https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend
and make up about 36% of the victims.
Racist outlook and comments by benighted people of that time
were routine (she's outdone by Woodrow Wilson and Margaret
Sanger in that regard for example). I was thinking mostly of
Prohibition but there's plenty else to not like.
On 10/28/2023 8:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes?
And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would >>>>> invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers >>>> products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >>>> began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly
obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better
bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems.
And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell
enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride
much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have
features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in
recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't sell
the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling feature over
comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others
not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
I think your parallel between solid tires and disk brakes is a good one!
Good for my thesis, that is.
99.99% of road cyclists use pneumatic tires. For them, the much lower
rolling resistance, much greater comfort, lighter weight and better
handling are benefits that outweigh the detriment of the occasional flat.
For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim brakes.
For them, the mechanical simplicity, easy repair, long life of brake
shoes, almost universal availability of brake shoes, and perfectly
adequate stopping power under almost all circumstances outweigh having
to squeeze with two fingers instead of one, and stopping slightly more >quickly in the rain.
IOW, your "For some riders they are desirable and for others not" may be >true, but the magnitudes are far different. For the overwhelming
majority, disks are "desirable" only because marketing has taught people
to desire them.
There are exceptions. (e.g. Jay.) But rare exceptions don't justify
throwing out rules. The tiny tail of the normal curve doesn't invalidate
the huge middle of the curve.
On 10/28/2023 5:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:It’s more than that, this is just rose tinted glasses.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers >>>> products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >>>> began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly
obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better
bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems. And
while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell enough
units to amortize their production investments), the improvements they
delivered were real. Users could immediately ride much faster and/or
easier with pneumatics and rolling element bearings; they could abandon
high wheelers with chain drive; they could climb previously impossible
hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
Remember until recently after all for road bikes, disks equipped bikes
outsold like for like rims by a huge margin, shimano and various bike
manufacturers have reported this when questioned by reporters and the like, >> why they have stopped selling bikes with rims brakes at so and so price
point and so on.
Essentially they don’t sell the market for rim brake bikes has just
collapsed, are some vocal voices online but they don’t buy bikes!
To summarize your point: People are buying lots of disk brake bikes
instead of rim brake bikes.
But we know that! The question is: "Why?"
I'm saying it's not because of a rational comparison of benefits vs. >detriments, or because disks are the better tool for the job of stopping
a road bike. It's because of marketing - and in this case, "marketing" >includes "The bike companies are not supplying bikes with rim brakes."
For a person walking into a bike store, seeing zero rim brake bikes
precludes buying anything but disks.
But a couple years ago when both were available, the salesman's spiel
would have been "Disks are newer and they stop better." That was
marketing. And the typical customer would never have asked for details.
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:46:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/28/2023 5:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:It’s more than that, this is just rose tinted glasses.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by >>>> walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish >>>> someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel >>>> myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >>>> began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that >>> the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly >>> obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were >>> many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better >>> bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems. And >>> while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell enough >>> units to amortize their production investments), the improvements they >>> delivered were real. Users could immediately ride much faster and/or
easier with pneumatics and rolling element bearings; they could abandon >>> high wheelers with chain drive; they could climb previously impossible >>> hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still >>> stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most >>> users is lower required hand force. Meh.
Remember until recently after all for road bikes, disks equipped bikes
outsold like for like rims by a huge margin, shimano and various bike
manufacturers have reported this when questioned by reporters and the like,
why they have stopped selling bikes with rims brakes at so and so price >> point and so on.
Essentially they don’t sell the market for rim brake bikes has just
collapsed, are some vocal voices online but they don’t buy bikes!
To summarize your point: People are buying lots of disk brake bikes >instead of rim brake bikes.
But we know that! The question is: "Why?"
The question is: Why do you care?
I'm saying it's not because of a rational comparison of benefits vs. >detriments, or because disks are the better tool for the job of stopping
a road bike. It's because of marketing - and in this case, "marketing" >includes "The bike companies are not supplying bikes with rim brakes."
For a person walking into a bike store, seeing zero rim brake bikes >precludes buying anything but disks.
But a couple years ago when both were available, the salesman's spiel >would have been "Disks are newer and they stop better." That was >marketing. And the typical customer would never have asked for details.
I doubt Krygowski has any idea how a typical customer thinks.
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/28/2023 8:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? >>>>>> And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would >>>>>> invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>>>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>>>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers >>>>> products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >>>>> began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly
obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better
bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems.
And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell
enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride
much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still >>>> stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most >>>> users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have
features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in
recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't sell
the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling feature over >>> comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others
not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
I think your parallel between solid tires and disk brakes is a good one! >>Good for my thesis, that is.
99.99% of road cyclists use pneumatic tires. For them, the much lower >>rolling resistance, much greater comfort, lighter weight and better >>handling are benefits that outweigh the detriment of the occasional flat.
For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim brakes.
For them, the mechanical simplicity, easy repair, long life of brake
shoes, almost universal availability of brake shoes, and perfectly
adequate stopping power under almost all circumstances outweigh having
to squeeze with two fingers instead of one, and stopping slightly more >>quickly in the rain.
IOW, your "For some riders they are desirable and for others not" may be >>true, but the magnitudes are far different. For the overwhelming
majority, disks are "desirable" only because marketing has taught people
to desire them.
I suspect more people simply see a new product and evaluate (for
themselves) whether or not it's something they might want to look
further in to. I don't believe the kind of marketing that goes beyond
simply presenting a product, has all that much influence, except,
perhaps, over people who can't think for themselves.
There are exceptions. (e.g. Jay.) But rare exceptions don't justify >>throwing out rules. The tiny tail of the normal curve doesn't invalidate >>the huge middle of the curve.
There are no rules.
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:28:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/28/2023 8:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that >>>>> the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly >>>>> obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? >>>>>>> And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would >>>>>>> invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by >>>>>> walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>>>>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish >>>>>> someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel >>>>>> myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>>>>> were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers >>>>>> products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >>>>>> began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W >>>>>
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were >>>>> many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better >>>>> bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems.
And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell
enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride
much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes >>>>> have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still >>>>> stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most >>>>> users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have
features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in
recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't sell >>>> the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling feature over >>>> comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others
not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
I think your parallel between solid tires and disk brakes is a good one! >>>Good for my thesis, that is.
99.99% of road cyclists use pneumatic tires. For them, the much lower >>>rolling resistance, much greater comfort, lighter weight and better >>>handling are benefits that outweigh the detriment of the occasional flat. >>>
For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim brakes. >>>For them, the mechanical simplicity, easy repair, long life of brake >>>shoes, almost universal availability of brake shoes, and perfectly >>>adequate stopping power under almost all circumstances outweigh having
to squeeze with two fingers instead of one, and stopping slightly more >>>quickly in the rain.
IOW, your "For some riders they are desirable and for others not" may be >>>true, but the magnitudes are far different. For the overwhelming >>>majority, disks are "desirable" only because marketing has taught people >>>to desire them.
I suspect more people simply see a new product and evaluate (for >>themselves) whether or not it's something they might want to look
further in to. I don't believe the kind of marketing that goes beyond >>simply presenting a product, has all that much influence, except,
perhaps, over people who can't think for themselves.
There are exceptions. (e.g. Jay.) But rare exceptions don't justify >>>throwing out rules. The tiny tail of the normal curve doesn't invalidate >>>the huge middle of the curve.
There are no rules.
Once again Frank flaunts his fantasies (:-)
But more to the point I suspect that the marketing that he so loudly
condemns is less a cause of anything then he so obviously fears. But
then he also fears the terrifying "Black Pickup Trucks"
True, an advertisement might encourage one to buy a box of HoopiDo
breakfast cereal, but no one is going to switch to the new cereal
unless it actually does taste better.
And of course we do have the matter of "conspicuous consumption" where
people buy things largely to flaunt their (imagined) superiority to
their neighbors....Look! Look at Me! I bought an Electric Car!
But is that a matter of marketing? Or a matter of insecurity? "I gotta
do something to show folks how superior I am".
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/28/2023 8:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? >>>>>> And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would >>>>>> invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually >>>>> harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path >>>>> were smooth!"Â My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers >>>>> products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process >>>>> began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly
obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better
bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems.
And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell
enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride
much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still >>>> stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most >>>> users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have
features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in
recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't sell
the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling feature over >>> comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others
not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
I think your parallel between solid tires and disk brakes is a good one!
Good for my thesis, that is.
99.99% of road cyclists use pneumatic tires. For them, the much lower
rolling resistance, much greater comfort, lighter weight and better
handling are benefits that outweigh the detriment of the occasional flat.
For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim brakes.
For them, the mechanical simplicity, easy repair, long life of brake
shoes, almost universal availability of brake shoes, and perfectly
adequate stopping power under almost all circumstances outweigh having
to squeeze with two fingers instead of one, and stopping slightly more
quickly in the rain.
IOW, your "For some riders they are desirable and for others not" may be
true, but the magnitudes are far different. For the overwhelming
majority, disks are "desirable" only because marketing has taught people
to desire them.
I suspect more people simply see a new product and evaluate (for
themselves) whether or not it's something they might want to look
further in to. I don't believe the kind of marketing that goes beyond
simply presenting a product, has all that much influence, except,
perhaps, over people who can't think for themselves.
There are exceptions. (e.g. Jay.) But rare exceptions don't justify
throwing out rules. The tiny tail of the normal curve doesn't invalidate
the huge middle of the curve.
There are no rules.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 05:42:24 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:28:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/28/2023 8:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that >>>>>> the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly >>>>>> obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were >>>>>> blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? >>>>>>>> And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would >>>>>>>> invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by >>>>>>> walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish >>>>>>> someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel >>>>>>> myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one. >>>>>>>
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W >>>>>>
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were >>>>>> many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better >>>>>> bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems. >>>>>> And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell >>>>>> enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride >>>>>> much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes >>>>>> have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still >>>>>> stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most >>>>>> users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have
features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in
recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't sell >>>>> the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling feature over >>>>> comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others >>>>> not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
I think your parallel between solid tires and disk brakes is a good one! >>>>Good for my thesis, that is.
99.99% of road cyclists use pneumatic tires. For them, the much lower >>>>rolling resistance, much greater comfort, lighter weight and better >>>>handling are benefits that outweigh the detriment of the occasional flat. >>>>
For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim brakes. >>>>For them, the mechanical simplicity, easy repair, long life of brake >>>>shoes, almost universal availability of brake shoes, and perfectly >>>>adequate stopping power under almost all circumstances outweigh having >>>>to squeeze with two fingers instead of one, and stopping slightly more >>>>quickly in the rain.
IOW, your "For some riders they are desirable and for others not" may be >>>>true, but the magnitudes are far different. For the overwhelming >>>>majority, disks are "desirable" only because marketing has taught people >>>>to desire them.
I suspect more people simply see a new product and evaluate (for >>>themselves) whether or not it's something they might want to look
further in to. I don't believe the kind of marketing that goes beyond >>>simply presenting a product, has all that much influence, except, >>>perhaps, over people who can't think for themselves.
There are exceptions. (e.g. Jay.) But rare exceptions don't justify >>>>throwing out rules. The tiny tail of the normal curve doesn't invalidate >>>>the huge middle of the curve.
There are no rules.
Once again Frank flaunts his fantasies (:-)
But more to the point I suspect that the marketing that he so loudly >>condemns is less a cause of anything then he so obviously fears. But
then he also fears the terrifying "Black Pickup Trucks"
True, an advertisement might encourage one to buy a box of HoopiDo >>breakfast cereal, but no one is going to switch to the new cereal
unless it actually does taste better.
And of course we do have the matter of "conspicuous consumption" where >>people buy things largely to flaunt their (imagined) superiority to
their neighbors....Look! Look at Me! I bought an Electric Car!
But is that a matter of marketing? Or a matter of insecurity? "I gotta
do something to show folks how superior I am".
...and the argument is so silly... People buy stuff that Krygowski
says they don't need, and "worse," they do it for reasons that
Krygowski doesn't approve of... and when Krankie FRankie whines and >complains about it, they go right on doing it.
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 19:19:23 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 05:42:24 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:28:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/28/2023 8:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that >>>>>>> the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly >>>>>>> obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were >>>>>>> blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? >>>>>>>>> And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would >>>>>>>>> invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by >>>>>>>> walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish >>>>>>>> someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel >>>>>>>> myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one. >>>>>>>>
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W >>>>>>>
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were >>>>>>> many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better >>>>>>> bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems. >>>>>>> And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell >>>>>>> enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride >>>>>>> much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they >>>>>>> could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes >>>>>>> have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still >>>>>>> stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most >>>>>>> users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have >>>>>> features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in >>>>>> recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't sell >>>>>> the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling feature over >>>>>> comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others >>>>>> not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
I think your parallel between solid tires and disk brakes is a good one! >>>>>Good for my thesis, that is.
99.99% of road cyclists use pneumatic tires. For them, the much lower >>>>>rolling resistance, much greater comfort, lighter weight and better >>>>>handling are benefits that outweigh the detriment of the occasional flat. >>>>>
For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim brakes. >>>>>For them, the mechanical simplicity, easy repair, long life of brake >>>>>shoes, almost universal availability of brake shoes, and perfectly >>>>>adequate stopping power under almost all circumstances outweigh having >>>>>to squeeze with two fingers instead of one, and stopping slightly more >>>>>quickly in the rain.
IOW, your "For some riders they are desirable and for others not" may be >>>>>true, but the magnitudes are far different. For the overwhelming >>>>>majority, disks are "desirable" only because marketing has taught people >>>>>to desire them.
I suspect more people simply see a new product and evaluate (for >>>>themselves) whether or not it's something they might want to look >>>>further in to. I don't believe the kind of marketing that goes beyond >>>>simply presenting a product, has all that much influence, except, >>>>perhaps, over people who can't think for themselves.
There are exceptions. (e.g. Jay.) But rare exceptions don't justify >>>>>throwing out rules. The tiny tail of the normal curve doesn't invalidate >>>>>the huge middle of the curve.
There are no rules.
Once again Frank flaunts his fantasies (:-)
But more to the point I suspect that the marketing that he so loudly >>>condemns is less a cause of anything then he so obviously fears. But
then he also fears the terrifying "Black Pickup Trucks"
True, an advertisement might encourage one to buy a box of HoopiDo >>>breakfast cereal, but no one is going to switch to the new cereal
unless it actually does taste better.
And of course we do have the matter of "conspicuous consumption" where >>>people buy things largely to flaunt their (imagined) superiority to
their neighbors....Look! Look at Me! I bought an Electric Car!
But is that a matter of marketing? Or a matter of insecurity? "I gotta
do something to show folks how superior I am".
...and the argument is so silly... People buy stuff that Krygowski
says they don't need, and "worse," they do it for reasons that
Krygowski doesn't approve of... and when Krankie FRankie whines and >>complains about it, they go right on doing it.
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
I might add that although I grew up in a small country town it was
only some 7 miles from Dartmouth Collage (for rich kids only) so we
did get to see modern contrivances (:-)
So, yet again our very own resident bigot thrills his readers with
false information.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around >>> a car park type of thing?
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past >>>> 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides,
probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride
them, and my MTB friends have them.
Which is a very different thing to
using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used >hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had >upgrades or part swapped.
Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about technology >and how it works…
I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I admit that former r.b.tech poster Jay Beattie got good benefit from
road disk brakes. That's because he commuted to work essentially every
day on the hilly side of rainy Portland Oregon. But he's very atypical.
Sounds quite typical really for many a European city ie soggy and very few >are pan flat, of the cycling cities only Cambridge in the uk is that, rest >have hills.
Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into the working, they >are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember last time any of >mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!
That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice always note but for >most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side effects ie larger >tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though the longer reach
dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable this is? I don’t know
as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots sized for that.
If I were to buy a new bicycle I'd like one with wide
tires, drop handlebar and if possible hydraulic disk brakes.
With disk brakes I could have black rims and hubs which
wouldn't be as visible when I'm camping in the woods. Plus I
wouldn't have to worry about my brake pads getting grit in
them and then grinding against my rims. Also, I wouldn't
have any problem with forward mounted rear panniers hitting
the brake calipers. Lastly I'd have much better stopping in
snow and slush.
I switched from cantilever brakes to V-brakes on my winter
bike because V-brake are far superior in stopping my bike
that the properly set up and adjust cantilever brakes ever
were.
They do offer benefits but those features may not interest
you. Same braking response wet or dry,
more responsive
braking action, elimination of rim degradation, etc.
OTOH heavier, more expensive.
But then again people weigh
various true things with more or less importance. This is in
the realm of taste not physics.
Am Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:06:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
Experience, often just feelings, without some understanding of the
physical, biological and sometimes even psychological mechanisms at work wouldn't tell you much, either.
I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I had problems with all these variants, when riding from and to work in winter. I very much doubt that disk brakes _don't_ share some of these problems, but I expect them to handle those problems somewhat better
than the best rim brakes I used for the aforementioned purpose in the
past, being short Shimano 105 brakes from 1995, Magura, V-Brake (all
heavily used) and Ultegra from 2010 (occasional rain only, no snow, no
salted slush).
On the other hand, disk brake ajustement and maintenance is no fun, in comparison to a dual pivot brake like Shimano 105/Ultegra, or a short V-Brake. Now being retired, I've a lot time at hand to fiddle around
with my bikes, but when I spent one or sometimes two hours on the road
to get to work each day, I wouldn't really have had time for that stuff. People who handle their biycle like others handle their car, letting
other people do all the dirty work, might have a different view at the matter.
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such, but I have a
strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work, including using
inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She always
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring. Only with the
new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even downhill.
Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into the working, they >> are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember last time any of
mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!
SRAM recommends that at least once a year. And it's no joy with the
equipment you need for that.
That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice always note but for
most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side effects ie larger >> tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though the longer reach
dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable this is? I don’t know
as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots sized for that.
On 10/29/2023 8:16 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:06:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking
to friends.
Experience, often just feelings, without some
understanding of the
physical, biological and sometimes even psychological
mechanisms at work
wouldn't tell you much, either.
The psychological point is a good one. We've had plenty of
discussions about the unreliability of "feel." There were
the road test experts who couldn't tell the difference
between different frame tubes, the young racers whose "felt"
benefit from frame stiffness disappeared when speeds were
measured, etc. All the way back to "Red bikes are fastest."
This has been discussed enough that it should somehow be
permanently posted: "What you 'feel' may not be real or
important."
...I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I
rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me
(for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains.
Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I
converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No
problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I had problems with all these variants, when riding from
and to work in
winter. I very much doubt that disk brakes _don't_ share
some of these
problems, but I expect them to handle those problems
somewhat better
than the best rim brakes I used for the aforementioned
purpose in the
past, being short Shimano 105 brakes from 1995, Magura,
V-Brake (all
heavily used) and Ultegra from 2010 (occasional rain only,
no snow, no
salted slush).
On the other hand, disk brake ajustement and maintenance
is no fun, in
comparison to a dual pivot brake like Shimano 105/Ultegra,
or a short
V-Brake. Now being retired, I've a lot time at hand to
fiddle around
with my bikes, but when I spent one or sometimes two hours
on the road
to get to work each day, I wouldn't really have had time
for that stuff.
People who handle their biycle like others handle their
car, letting
other people do all the dirty work, might have a different
view at the
matter.
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such,
but I have a
strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work,
including using
inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She
always
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring.
Only with the
new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even
downhill.
That's interesting. I don't think of my wife as being
extremely strong, but I recall only two complaints from her
about braking. One was the only time I took her down a
certain long and super-steep local hill, something over 10%
I'm sure. We crept down at low speed. She then said
something about the braking causing her back to be sore. I
never completely understood, but I made sure to avoid that
hill with her.
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on
her touring bike. She said the new levers were too far a
reach for her hands. So I bent the levers to bring them
closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if that would be
possible with hydraulic levers?)
Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into
the working, they
are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember
last time any of
mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!
SRAM recommends that at least once a year. And it's no joy
with the
equipment you need for that.
That would annoy me! I hate plumbing.
That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice
always note but for
most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side
effects ie larger
tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though
the longer reach
dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable
this is? I don’t know
as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots
sized for that.
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of
rim brakes: It occurs to me that someone could go through
the r.b.tech archives of the past 30 years or so and count
up all the relevant complaints about actual bad incidents
with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would justify
a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the
effort, because there would be lots and lots of searching to
find very, very few such incidents.
SRAM recommends that at least once a year. And it's no joy with the equipment you need for that.That would annoy me! I hate plumbing.
Am Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:06:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/25/2023 4:20 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Have you used a road bike with disks? And for more than just a ride around >>>> a car park type of thing?
But for the most common types of road riding, disc brakes confer no
significant benefit. They haven't been needed on road bikes for the past >>>>> 100 years. Nothing has changed that.
I've test-ridden at least three bikes with disk brakes. Not long rides,
probably maximum five miles. I've talked quite a bit with friends who
have disk brake bikes; in one case, because a friend was asking me if I
knew what caused the weird noises he was getting; in another case
because he burned through disk pads on a hilly tour, losing braking
ability.
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
Experience, often just feelings, without some understanding of the
physical, biological and sometimes even psychological mechanisms at work wouldn't tell you much, either.
I admit that some experience is sometimes helpful, even necessary. But
this experience can often be replaced by observing and studying people
using the devices in question. You can observe many more people,
situations and devices over a longer period of time than what you can experience firsthand yourself.
I have broadly same experience with E bikes in that I occasionally ride
them, and my MTB friends have them.
I have even less experience with e-bikes, but enough in order to allow
me to form an educated opinion on how they are sold, used and about the consequences thereof. One doesn't have to experience the feelings in
order to understand how they are caused and for what reason.
Which is a very different thing to
using them regularly, and even using different types of them I have used
hydraulic disk on number of different bikes and two of the bikes have had
upgrades or part swapped.
Fine. So you have had experience with a tiny subset of the available offerings over an unknown period of time. So do I. I've ridden three
bikes with disk brakes this year, a four years old e-bike, with my power meter pedals mounted in spring, an about two years old utility bike for
a day in summer and the bike I built in spring from ground up, over most
of they year, so far. All of these were used riding fast on flat and
upd and downhill on steep (>10%) terrain. My Garmins statistics tell
me that I have ridden my new bike since April this year, covering about
3100 km and 38 km of altitude. I had to already change the brake pad in
the front wheel, once.
Rather than assuming that you know, hint you don’t.
this being a technical group I’d hope folks to be curious about technology >> and how it works…
Naturally. That's why I'm against motorcycles dressed as bicycles being traded as bicycles, even though they are essentially motorcycles. I
don't doubt the experience, I understand and criticize it.
Disc brakes are a completely different matter. Both their advantages and disadvantages compared to rim brakes have long been known. Disc brakes
are less prone to dirt when driving through mud and are better in wet conditions due to the larger lever ratio. This is also why they require
more precision both during production and assembly and later during any necessary adjustments, such as when changing the pads. And even in the meantime they are, well, somewhat difficult.
The question is whether advances have been made in technology or in production to close the gaps where disk brakes are inferior. I don't
think so.
I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I had problems with all these variants, when riding from and to work in winter. I very much doubt that disk brakes _don't_ share some of these problems, but I expect them to handle those problems somewhat better
than the best rim brakes I used for the aforementioned purpose in the
past, being short Shimano 105 brakes from 1995, Magura, V-Brake (all
heavily used) and Ultegra from 2010 (occasional rain only, no snow, no
salted slush).
On the other hand, disk brake ajustement and maintenance is no fun, in comparison to a dual pivot brake like Shimano 105/Ultegra, or a short V-Brake. Now being retired, I've a lot time at hand to fiddle around
with my bikes, but when I spent one or sometimes two hours on the road
to get to work each day, I wouldn't really have had time for that stuff. People who handle their biycle like others handle their car, letting
other people do all the dirty work, might have a different view at the matter.
I admit that former r.b.tech poster Jay Beattie got good benefit from
road disk brakes. That's because he commuted to work essentially every
day on the hilly side of rainy Portland Oregon. But he's very atypical.
That's cherry picking and a slippery slope, not a good idea. So I'm
very atypical, too, like many German people riding their bike during
winter.
Sounds quite typical really for many a European city ie soggy and very few >> are pan flat, of the cycling cities only Cambridge in the uk is that, rest >> have hills.
Right.
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such, but I have a
strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work, including using
inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She always
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring. Only with the
new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even downhill.
[...]
Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into the working, they >> are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember last time any of
mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!
SRAM recommends that at least once a year. And it's no joy with the
equipment you need for that. Currently I'm struggeling with a problem
I've have had during original construction, too: there just is no leeway
with new pads.
Both pistons must be pressed flat into the brake body as far as they
will go, otherwise they will grind and squeak horribly, even when you
walk the bicycle slowly. This is a rather complicated procedure that
requires you to hang the bike in the repair stand. And if you're
unlucky, it starts again after the first hard braking. As a remedy, SRAM recommends extending the piston several times to an inserted brake
spreader and then pushing it back again using plastic tire lever. A
heavy one, I might add, from experience.
Compared to the rim brakes on my racing bike from 2010, the disk brakes
feel rough, perhaps because of the holes and because the disk is a kind
of mixture of a resonator and a tuning fork.
Removing and handling the wheels is awkward, compared to rim brakes,
where you just open the brake with one hand, open the quick release with
the other and then letting the whell fall out. Find the proper Allen
key, remove the axle, store it. Remove the wheel, don't touch the disk
with your hands or those greasy gloves. Remove your greasy gloves, store
the wheel in a place safe from grease. Find the break spreader, push it between the brake pads, clean your hands from brake dust.
Other than that, I don't have any complaints, as long as the brakes
work, they work very well. No adjustment necessary, the required grip
power is just right, no change from moving the bowden cables around.
That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice always note but for
most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side effects ie larger >> tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though the longer reach
dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable this is? I don’t know
as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots sized for that.
I didn't really have a choice, because a groupset like the SRAM Rival/GX
AXS Mullet <https://www.feedthehabit.com/gear-reviews/sram-rival-gx-axs-mullet-gravel-kit-review/>
resp. the Force/GX variant including a 10-52 cassette I built into our
frames isn't available with rim brakes. Like the guy from the article I
used a 40 teeth front chainring on both bikes, with the option to
replace it with an even smaller one.
Our gravel frames allow more, but I just used tubeless 28 mm GP 5000
from Continental. We don't do gravel, we ride on asphalt, only. IMHO, 28
mm is just the sweet spot for us. Our frames have all the possible
mounting points for racks and fenders. Beeing able to mount real fenders
or to convert the bikes to real touring bikes (randonneur, "Reiserad" in German) is a benefit.
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 5:11:55 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
SRAM recommends that at least once a year. And it's no joy with theThat would annoy me! I hate plumbing.
equipment you need for that.
My CX bike with hydraulic disks is 10 years old now and I bled the brakes only once. My gravel bike is 3.5 years now and I never bled the brakes. I don't know what SRAM is cooking but every year? WTF? I replaced the brake pads of my rim brakes on my climbing bike after last holiday in the mountains. They are Campa top of the line Super Record brakes. You have
to pry or hammer out the old pads. To do so it is wise to get the
cartridges off the callipers to avoid damaging the fork or frame. Then
you have to modify the new pads a bit (get rid of the sharp ridges), then
you have make them wet a bit (iso propanol) and hammer them in the cartridges. Then mount to cartridges again on the callipers and align
them again with the narrow brake surface of the rims. Replacement of the brake pads of Shimano rim brakes are much easier. I rather bleed Shimano hydraulic disk brakes than replace Campagnolo brake pads on the rim brakes. YMMV.
Lou
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on her touring bike. She said the new levers were too far a reach for her hands. So I
bent the levers to bring them closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if that would be possible with hydraulic levers?)
Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 5:11:55 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
SRAM recommends that at least once a year. And it's no joy with theThat would annoy me! I hate plumbing.
equipment you need for that.
My CX bike with hydraulic disks is 10 years old now and I bled the brakes only once. My gravel bike is 3.5 years now and I never bled the brakes. I don't know what SRAM is cooking but every year? WTF? I replaced the brake pads of my rim brakes on my climbing bike after last holiday in the mountains. They are Campa top of the line Super Record brakes. You have
to pry or hammer out the old pads. To do so it is wise to get the cartridges off the callipers to avoid damaging the fork or frame. Then
you have to modify the new pads a bit (get rid of the sharp ridges), then you have make them wet a bit (iso propanol) and hammer them in the cartridges. Then mount to cartridges again on the callipers and align
them again with the narrow brake surface of the rims. Replacement of the brake pads of Shimano rim brakes are much easier. I rather bleed Shimano hydraulic disk brakes than replace Campagnolo brake pads on the rim brakes. YMMV.
Lou
SRAM uses Dot fluid in most of its brakes which is hygroscopic which possibly is why?
But yes I find disks very easy to live with, essentially change pads now
and then and that’s it! The Gravel bikes rear needs some new pads at some point getting a bit low.
Roger Merriman
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim brakes:
It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech archives of
the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant complaints about
actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would
justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very few
such incidents.
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to
you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
On 10/29/2023 8:16 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:06:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
Experience, often just feelings, without some understanding of the
physical, biological and sometimes even psychological mechanisms at work
wouldn't tell you much, either.
The psychological point is a good one. We've had plenty of discussions
about the unreliability of "feel." There were the road test experts who >couldn't tell the difference between different frame tubes, the young
racers whose "felt" benefit from frame stiffness disappeared when speeds
were measured, etc. All the way back to "Red bikes are fastest."
This has been discussed enough that it should somehow be permanently
posted: "What you 'feel' may not be real or important."
...I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that >>>> bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of >>>> the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I had problems with all these variants, when riding from and to work in
winter. I very much doubt that disk brakes _don't_ share some of these
problems, but I expect them to handle those problems somewhat better
than the best rim brakes I used for the aforementioned purpose in the
past, being short Shimano 105 brakes from 1995, Magura, V-Brake (all
heavily used) and Ultegra from 2010 (occasional rain only, no snow, no
salted slush).
On the other hand, disk brake ajustement and maintenance is no fun, in
comparison to a dual pivot brake like Shimano 105/Ultegra, or a short
V-Brake. Now being retired, I've a lot time at hand to fiddle around
with my bikes, but when I spent one or sometimes two hours on the road
to get to work each day, I wouldn't really have had time for that stuff.
People who handle their biycle like others handle their car, letting
other people do all the dirty work, might have a different view at the
matter.
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such, but I have a
strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work, including using
inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She always
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring. Only with the
new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even downhill.
That's interesting. I don't think of my wife as being extremely strong,
but I recall only two complaints from her about braking. One was the
only time I took her down a certain long and super-steep local hill, >something over 10% I'm sure. We crept down at low speed. She then said >something about the braking causing her back to be sore. I never
completely understood, but I made sure to avoid that hill with her.
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on her touring
bike. She said the new levers were too far a reach for her hands. So I
bent the levers to bring them closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if
that would be possible with hydraulic levers?)
Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into the working, they >>> are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember last time any of >>> mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!
SRAM recommends that at least once a year. And it's no joy with the
equipment you need for that.
That would annoy me! I hate plumbing.
That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice always note but for
most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side effects ie larger >>> tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though the longer reach >>> dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable this is? I don’t know >>> as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots sized for that.
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim brakes:
It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech archives of
the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant complaints about
actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would >justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very few
such incidents.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to
you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
On 10/29/2023 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:Veblen' as it were).
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim
brakes: It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech
archives of the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant
complaints about actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those
complaints that would justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very
few such incidents.
It's true that you have to go back 45~50 years to find actually
inadequate braking systems of any type on LBS level bicycles (crap
exists today on mail order and hardware store BSOs but even those are
rare, given regulation and the plaintiff's bar).
Don't discount the value of Veblen goods. They have a very real effect
at both ends (camo duct tape enshrouded urban bikes are 'reverse
Marketing does have an effect of unknown weight at the margin else no
one would spend their money on it.
While no amount of marketing will get
me to buy moisturizing skin cream, my ex may be persuaded to switch from Olay to Nivea or the reverse or try a new brand primarily through
marketing. There are severe limits to that effect (example: you're not buying a large black pickup truck even if both Ford and GM send you
mailers every day).
Back to the hump of those bell curves; People really do look at the same facts, and agree they're true, and yet decide differently. This may be beyond simple explanation but it is very much true.
On 10/29/2023 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 8:16 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:06:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking
to friends.
Experience, often just feelings, without some
understanding of the
physical, biological and sometimes even psychological
mechanisms at work
wouldn't tell you much, either.
The psychological point is a good one. We've had plenty of
discussions about the unreliability of "feel." There were
the road test experts who couldn't tell the difference
between different frame tubes, the young racers whose "felt"
benefit from frame stiffness disappeared when speeds were
measured, etc. All the way back to "Red bikes are fastest."
This has been discussed enough that it should somehow be
permanently posted: "What you 'feel' may not be real or
important."
...I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I
rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me
(for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains.
Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I
converted that
bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No
problems on any of
the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I had problems with all these variants, when riding from
and to work in
winter. I very much doubt that disk brakes _don't_ share
some of these
problems, but I expect them to handle those problems
somewhat better
than the best rim brakes I used for the aforementioned
purpose in the
past, being short Shimano 105 brakes from 1995, Magura,
V-Brake (all
heavily used) and Ultegra from 2010 (occasional rain only,
no snow, no
salted slush).
On the other hand, disk brake ajustement and maintenance
is no fun, in
comparison to a dual pivot brake like Shimano 105/Ultegra,
or a short
V-Brake. Now being retired, I've a lot time at hand to
fiddle around
with my bikes, but when I spent one or sometimes two hours
on the road
to get to work each day, I wouldn't really have had time
for that stuff.
People who handle their biycle like others handle their
car, letting
other people do all the dirty work, might have a different
view at the
matter.
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such,
but I have a
strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work,
including using
inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She
always
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring.
Only with the
new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even
downhill.
That's interesting. I don't think of my wife as being
extremely strong, but I recall only two complaints from her
about braking. One was the only time I took her down a
certain long and super-steep local hill, something over 10%
I'm sure. We crept down at low speed. She then said
something about the braking causing her back to be sore. I
never completely understood, but I made sure to avoid that
hill with her.
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on
her touring bike. She said the new levers were too far a
reach for her hands. So I bent the levers to bring them
closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if that would be
possible with hydraulic levers?)
Hydraulic Disks are sealed systems, muck can’t get into
the working, they
are hose off, replace pads and that’s it, can’t remember
last time any of
mine needed a bleed certainly well before COVID!
SRAM recommends that at least once a year. And it's no joy
with the
equipment you need for that.
That would annoy me! I hate plumbing.
That doesn’t mean I think disks are the best choice
always note but for
most they probably are, sometimes there benefits are side
effects ie larger
tire clearance, which is doable with rim brakes, though
the longer reach
dual pivots aren’t as effective though how noticeable
this is? I don’t know
as only rode bikes with 23/25mm tires and so dual pivots
sized for that.
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of
rim brakes: It occurs to me that someone could go through
the r.b.tech archives of the past 30 years or so and count
up all the relevant complaints about actual bad incidents
with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would justify
a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the
effort, because there would be lots and lots of searching to
find very, very few such incidents.
It's true that you have to go back 45~50 years to find
actually inadequate braking systems of any type on LBS level
bicycles (crap exists today on mail order and hardware store
BSOs but even those are rare, given regulation and the
plaintiff's bar).
Don't discount the value of Veblen goods. They have a very
real effect at both ends (camo duct tape enshrouded urban
bikes are 'reverse Veblen' as it were).
Marketing does have an effect of unknown weight at the
margin else no one would spend their money on it. While no
amount of marketing will get me to buy moisturizing skin
cream, my ex may be persuaded to switch from Olay to Nivea
or the reverse or try a new brand primarily through
marketing. There are severe limits to that effect (example:
you're not buying a large black pickup truck even if both
Ford and GM send you mailers every day).
Back to the hump of those bell curves; People really do look
at the same facts, and agree they're true, and yet decide
differently. This may be beyond simple explanation but it is
very much true. A rider's purchase of a new bicycle with
disc brakes is no different from your purchase of an
electric auto in that regard. Rim brakes are adequate for
most purposes just as my small block V8 is as dependable a
thing as humans have made and yet some people decide
differently. For complex reasons or for no reason. And
that's fine.
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 7:21:21 PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to
you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
Imagine a world where you want a buy a new car and the only one you can
get is an EV. Or if you want a new higher end car and the only one you
can buy is one with an automatic gearbox even if you prefer a manual.
Lou
On 10/29/2023 2:21 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim brakes: >>> It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech archives of
the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant complaints about
actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would >>> justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very few >>> such incidents.
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to
you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
That guy has no concept of what a _discussion_ group is.
He's all about "Why do you care?" AKA "Why discuss this?"
Yet he leaps at every chance to disagree with me. Why does _he_ care?
I think his life is empty of human contact for obvious reasons - and
_not_ just because he's the manly individualist he claims. So he hangs
out here slinging insults, hoping to feel better about himself.
He certainly isn't interested in technical points - well, beyond
learning how to count spoke crossings!
("Let's see: One, two ... um, what's next?")
On 10/29/2023 12:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim
brakes: It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech
archives of the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant
complaints about actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those
complaints that would justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very
few such incidents.
It's true that you have to go back 45~50 years to find actually
inadequate braking systems of any type on LBS level bicycles (crap
exists today on mail order and hardware store BSOs but even those are
rare, given regulation and the plaintiff's bar).
Don't discount the value of Veblen goods. They have a very real effectVeblen' as it were).
at both ends (camo duct tape enshrouded urban bikes are 'reverse
Sure, Veblen goods exist. (Did you read the chapter in Freakonomics
about the prostitute who greatly increased her prices?) But as you know,
I tend to deal more with practicalities, such as benefits vs. detriments.
Marketing does have an effect of unknown weight at the margin else no
one would spend their money on it.
Oh, I think it affects much more than the margins!
While no amount of marketing will get
me to buy moisturizing skin cream, my ex may be persuaded to switch from Olay to Nivea or the reverse or try a new brand primarily through marketing. There are severe limits to that effect (example: you're not buying a large black pickup truck even if both Ford and GM send you
mailers every day).
I'd say the great bulk of marketing effort is designed to ignore or
bypass practical and rational decision making. Which is sensible for the >marketers, because most consumer decisions seem to be governed more by >emotion than by practicality. And it works well for them, as
demonstrated by the size and success of the marketing industry.
Back to the hump of those bell curves; People really do look at the same facts, and agree they're true, and yet decide differently. This may be beyond simple explanation but it is very much true.
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They
don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their >product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!"
Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 7:21:21?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to
you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
Imagine a world where you want a buy a new car and the only one you can
get is an EV. Or if you want a new higher end car and the only one you
can buy is one with an automatic gearbox even if you prefer a manual.
Lou
Indeed even the uk hill climb bikes, are now disk, simply as that’s where
the market and demand has gone, and yes it’s a niche but I can see why
folks are at having to change systems ie all their wheels are rim not disk >and so on.
Roger Merriman
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:56:25 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 7:21:21?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
Imagine a world where you want a buy a new car and the only one you can
get is an EV. Or if you want a new higher end car and the only one you
can buy is one with an automatic gearbox even if you prefer a manual.
Lou
The fact is that neither kinds of bicycle brakes are going away, and
even after they have, parts replacements will go on for a long time.
Indeed even the uk hill climb bikes, are now disk, simply as thatÂ’s where >> the market and demand has gone, and yes itÂ’s a niche but I can see why
folks are at having to change systems ie all their wheels are rim not disk >> and so on.
Roger Merriman
On 10/29/2023 12:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:Veblen' as it were).
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim
brakes: It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech
archives of the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant
complaints about actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those
complaints that would justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very
few such incidents.
It's true that you have to go back 45~50 years to find actually
inadequate braking systems of any type on LBS level bicycles (crap
exists today on mail order and hardware store BSOs but even those are
rare, given regulation and the plaintiff's bar).
Don't discount the value of Veblen goods. They have a very real effect
at both ends (camo duct tape enshrouded urban bikes are 'reverse
Sure, Veblen goods exist. (Did you read the chapter in Freakonomics
about the prostitute who greatly increased her prices?) But as you know,
I tend to deal more with practicalities, such as benefits vs. detriments.
Marketing does have an effect of unknown weight at the margin else no
one would spend their money on it.
Oh, I think it affects much more than the margins!
While no amount of marketing will get
me to buy moisturizing skin cream, my ex may be persuaded to switch from
Olay to Nivea or the reverse or try a new brand primarily through
marketing. There are severe limits to that effect (example: you're not
buying a large black pickup truck even if both Ford and GM send you
mailers every day).
I'd say the great bulk of marketing effort is designed to ignore or
bypass practical and rational decision making. Which is sensible for the marketers, because most consumer decisions seem to be governed more by emotion than by practicality. And it works well for them, as
demonstrated by the size and success of the marketing industry.
Back to the hump of those bell curves; People really do look at the same
facts, and agree they're true, and yet decide differently. This may be
beyond simple explanation but it is very much true.
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They
don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!"
Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
He (me) certainly isn't interested in technical points - well, beyond >learning how to count spoke crossings!
("Let's see: One, two ... um, what's next?")
--
- Frank Krygowski
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 08:24:20 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 19:19:23 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 05:42:24 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:28:49 -0400, Catrike Rider >>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/28/2023 8:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that >>>>>>>> the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly >>>>>>>> obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were >>>>>>>> blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years >>>>>>>>>> of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? >>>>>>>>>> And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would >>>>>>>>>> invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question. >>>>>>>>>
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by >>>>>>>>> walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of >>>>>>>>> burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish >>>>>>>>> someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel >>>>>>>>> myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one. >>>>>>>>>
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W >>>>>>>>
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were >>>>>>>> many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better >>>>>>>> bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems. >>>>>>>> And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell >>>>>>>> enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride >>>>>>>> much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they >>>>>>>> could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes >>>>>>>> have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still >>>>>>>> stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most >>>>>>>> users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have >>>>>>> features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in >>>>>>> recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't sell >>>>>>> the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling feature over
comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others >>>>>>> not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
I think your parallel between solid tires and disk brakes is a good one! >>>>>>Good for my thesis, that is.
99.99% of road cyclists use pneumatic tires. For them, the much lower >>>>>>rolling resistance, much greater comfort, lighter weight and better >>>>>>handling are benefits that outweigh the detriment of the occasional flat. >>>>>>
For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim brakes. >>>>>>For them, the mechanical simplicity, easy repair, long life of brake >>>>>>shoes, almost universal availability of brake shoes, and perfectly >>>>>>adequate stopping power under almost all circumstances outweigh having >>>>>>to squeeze with two fingers instead of one, and stopping slightly more >>>>>>quickly in the rain.
IOW, your "For some riders they are desirable and for others not" may be >>>>>>true, but the magnitudes are far different. For the overwhelming >>>>>>majority, disks are "desirable" only because marketing has taught people >>>>>>to desire them.
I suspect more people simply see a new product and evaluate (for >>>>>themselves) whether or not it's something they might want to look >>>>>further in to. I don't believe the kind of marketing that goes beyond >>>>>simply presenting a product, has all that much influence, except, >>>>>perhaps, over people who can't think for themselves.
There are exceptions. (e.g. Jay.) But rare exceptions don't justify >>>>>>throwing out rules. The tiny tail of the normal curve doesn't invalidate >>>>>>the huge middle of the curve.
There are no rules.
Once again Frank flaunts his fantasies (:-)
But more to the point I suspect that the marketing that he so loudly >>>>condemns is less a cause of anything then he so obviously fears. But >>>>then he also fears the terrifying "Black Pickup Trucks"
True, an advertisement might encourage one to buy a box of HoopiDo >>>>breakfast cereal, but no one is going to switch to the new cereal >>>>unless it actually does taste better.
And of course we do have the matter of "conspicuous consumption" where >>>>people buy things largely to flaunt their (imagined) superiority to >>>>their neighbors....Look! Look at Me! I bought an Electric Car!
But is that a matter of marketing? Or a matter of insecurity? "I gotta >>>>do something to show folks how superior I am".
...and the argument is so silly... People buy stuff that Krygowski
says they don't need, and "worse," they do it for reasons that
Krygowski doesn't approve of... and when Krankie FRankie whines and >>>complains about it, they go right on doing it.
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
I might add that although I grew up in a small country town it was
only some 7 miles from Dartmouth Collage (for rich kids only) so we
did get to see modern contrivances (:-)
So, yet again our very own resident bigot thrills his readers with
false information.
..and now people are buying bikes with disk brakes, GPS computers,
electronic shifters with 10/12 speed drives, battery operated lights,
and other new high-tech devices. Most people don't seem to mind that
one little bit, even if, for whatever reason, they aren't buying all
that new stuff.
On the other hnd, here we have a guy who is not willing, or perhaps
not able to keep up with the latest technology berate those who do.
It makes you wonder why he feeels the need to attack everything and
everybody who chooses paths different from his. He acts as though
those people's choices are a personal affront to him.
They are not, of course, but the narcissistic not only needs to see
his choices as the best ones, he needs to have everyone else see it
that way too. When they clearly do not, the underlying message that
Krygowski is insinuating is that many people, but certainly not
himself, are too weak to resist the dishonest marketers.
The narcissist blames everybody else for his feelings of inadequacy.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:06:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 12:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:Veblen' as it were).
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim
brakes: It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech
archives of the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant
complaints about actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those
complaints that would justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very
few such incidents.
It's true that you have to go back 45~50 years to find actually
inadequate braking systems of any type on LBS level bicycles (crap
exists today on mail order and hardware store BSOs but even those are
rare, given regulation and the plaintiff's bar).
Don't discount the value of Veblen goods. They have a very real effect
at both ends (camo duct tape enshrouded urban bikes are 'reverse
Sure, Veblen goods exist. (Did you read the chapter in Freakonomics
about the prostitute who greatly increased her prices?) But as you know,
I tend to deal more with practicalities, such as benefits vs. detriments.
Marketing does have an effect of unknown weight at the margin else no
one would spend their money on it.
Oh, I think it affects much more than the margins!
While no amount of marketing will get
me to buy moisturizing skin cream, my ex may be persuaded to switch from >> > Olay to Nivea or the reverse or try a new brand primarily through
marketing. There are severe limits to that effect (example: you're not
buying a large black pickup truck even if both Ford and GM send you
mailers every day).
I'd say the great bulk of marketing effort is designed to ignore or
bypass practical and rational decision making. Which is sensible for the >>marketers, because most consumer decisions seem to be governed more by >>emotion than by practicality. And it works well for them, as
demonstrated by the size and success of the marketing industry.
Back to the hump of those bell curves; People really do look at the same >> > facts, and agree they're true, and yet decide differently. This may be
beyond simple explanation but it is very much true.
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny >>rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They
don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their >>product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!" >>Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
Oh my, some people actually buy what they want to buy instead of not
properly evaluating the facts and therefore not properly basing their >decisions on advantages vs. disadvantages.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:51:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 2:21 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim brakes: >>>> It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech archives of >>>> the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant complaints about >>>> actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would >>>> justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very few >>>> such incidents.
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to
you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
That guy has no concept of what a _discussion_ group is.
A conversation where one person berates another because they do things >differently, is going well past what a discussion group is.
You berate people who do things differently than you by insinuating,
or saying outright, that they do not properly evaluate their needs.
He's all about "Why do you care?" AKA "Why discuss this?"
Indeed, why do you care what other people do when it has no effect on
you? It's not as if you're going to change their minds. In most cases >they've already done what you're berating them for.
Yet he leaps at every chance to disagree with me. Why does _he_ care?
There's a big difference between disagreeing and berating people for >disagreeing.
I think his life is empty of human contact for obvious reasons - and
_not_ just because he's the manly individualist he claims. So he hangs
out here slinging insults, hoping to feel better about himself.
Good, grief, Krygowski imagines that anybody is interested in what he
thinks about me.
He certainly isn't interested in technical points - well, beyond
learning how to count spoke crossings!
("Let's see: One, two ... um, what's next?")
Calculating spoke length is a technical point, but evaluating what and
why other people prefer in bicycle brakes is not, especially when it's >already agreed that good quality rim or disk brakes are generally
adequate.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:51:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
He (me) certainly isn't interested in technical points - well, beyond >>learning how to count spoke crossings!
("Let's see: One, two ... um, what's next?")
--
- Frank Krygowski
So, here's a guy who made a mistake, (not hard to do given the >circumstances). He discovered the mistake using research and logic, he >figured out what the mistake was, again with using research and logic.
He then figured out how to correct the mistake. He did all that
without any classrooms or teachers.
He then acknowledged and defined the mistake to anyone who might read
his post and be in a similar circumstance so that they might not make
that mistake.
What a novel thing.. It must have dumbfounded Krygowski that a person
can be that self secure.
By the way, the circumstances involved
1) Never having done that before...
2) Not seeing something that was mostly hidden from view...
Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 7:21:21?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to
you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
Imagine a world where you want a buy a new car and the only one you can
get is an EV. Or if you want a new higher end car and the only one you
can buy is one with an automatic gearbox even if you prefer a manual.
Lou
Indeed even the uk hill climb bikes, are now disk, simply as that’s where
the market and demand has gone, and yes it’s a niche but I can see why
folks are at having to change systems ie all their wheels are rim not disk >and so on.
Roger Merriman
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race
without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill.
Notice the red gradient profile: ><https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
Frank's arguments are rather strange in that while the disc brake
advocates provide what they believe are facts, that the discs stop
better in the wet. Frank, offers no evidenced that rim brakes are
better... other then his say so.
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
There are plenty of tech that flops that no matter how many celebrities endorsements see oval rings for example, but bike tech is littered with
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They
decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They
don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their
product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!"
Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
stuff that didn’t catch on, or the market has decided for example 650b gravel bikes while a lot of marketing haven’t dominated the gravel sector and are fairly niche, or plus sized tires for MTB and so on.
Real hill climbs (:-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXoTvJw4N-I
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:56:25 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 7:21:21?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
Imagine a world where you want a buy a new car and the only one you can
get is an EV. Or if you want a new higher end car and the only one you
can buy is one with an automatic gearbox even if you prefer a manual.
Lou
Indeed even the uk hill climb bikes, are now disk, simply as thatÂ’s where >> the market and demand has gone, and yes itÂ’s a niche but I can see why
folks are at having to change systems ie all their wheels are rim not disk >> and so on.
Roger Merriman
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely on >marketing -
that is, based on what's advertised, what paid "reviewers"
say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those
selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real
needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of >fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk
brake bike? If not, why not?
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:56:25 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 7:21:21?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote: >>>>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people >>>>> don't care!
Imagine a world where you want a buy a new car and the only one you can >>>> get is an EV. Or if you want a new higher end car and the only one you >>>> can buy is one with an automatic gearbox even if you prefer a manual.
Lou
Indeed even the uk hill climb bikes, are now disk, simply as that?s where >>> the market and demand has gone, and yes it?s a niche but I can see why
folks are at having to change systems ie all their wheels are rim not disk >>> and so on.
Roger Merriman
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
Similar in that both race up hills, but I’d assume that the American is a
UCI sanctioned race? Uk ones aren’t hence bikes in the 5/6KG mark they do
now have to have a helmet and lights but it’s still fairly amateur.
Roger Merriman
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:58:31 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:51:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 2:21 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim brakes: >>>>> It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech archives of >>>>> the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant complaints about >>>>> actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would >>>>> justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort, >>>>> because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very few >>>>> such incidents.
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people
don't care!
That guy has no concept of what a _discussion_ group is.
A conversation where one person berates another because they do things >>differently, is going well past what a discussion group is.
You berate people who do things differently than you by insinuating,
or saying outright, that they do not properly evaluate their needs.
He's all about "Why do you care?" AKA "Why discuss this?"
Indeed, why do you care what other people do when it has no effect on
you? It's not as if you're going to change their minds. In most cases >>they've already done what you're berating them for.
Yet he leaps at every chance to disagree with me. Why does _he_ care?
There's a big difference between disagreeing and berating people for >>disagreeing.
I think his life is empty of human contact for obvious reasons - and >>>_not_ just because he's the manly individualist he claims. So he hangs >>>out here slinging insults, hoping to feel better about himself.
Good, grief, Krygowski imagines that anybody is interested in what he >>thinks about me.
He certainly isn't interested in technical points - well, beyond
learning how to count spoke crossings!
("Let's see: One, two ... um, what's next?")
Calculating spoke length is a technical point, but evaluating what and
why other people prefer in bicycle brakes is not, especially when it's >>already agreed that good quality rim or disk brakes are generally
adequate.
Frank's arguments are rather strange in that while the disc brake
advocates provide what they believe are facts, that the discs stop
better in the wet. Frank, offers no evidenced that rim brakes are
better... other then his say so.
There seems to be a certain arrogance here, "Rim brakes are better..
because I say so", that does seem to attract those who would rather
face reality rather then listen to a elderly bigot rant and rave.
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:56:25 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 7:21:21?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote: >>>>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people >>>>> don't care!
Imagine a world where you want a buy a new car and the only one you can >>>> get is an EV. Or if you want a new higher end car and the only one you >>>> can buy is one with an automatic gearbox even if you prefer a manual.
Lou
Indeed even the uk hill climb bikes, are now disk, simply as that?s where >>> the market and demand has gone, and yes it?s a niche but I can see why
folks are at having to change systems ie all their wheels are rim not disk >>> and so on.
Roger Merriman
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
Similar in that both race up hills, but I’d assume that the American is a
UCI sanctioned race? Uk ones aren’t hence bikes in the 5/6KG mark they do
now have to have a helmet and lights but it’s still fairly amateur.
Roger Merriman
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 07:05:10 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 08:24:20 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 19:19:23 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 05:42:24 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:28:49 -0400, Catrike Rider >>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:37:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/28/2023 8:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that >>>>>>>>> the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly >>>>>>>>> obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were >>>>>>>>> blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes? >>>>>>>>>>> And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would
invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question. >>>>>>>>>>
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by >>>>>>>>>> walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish >>>>>>>>>> someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel >>>>>>>>>> myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way. >>>>>>>>>>
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one. >>>>>>>>>>
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W >>>>>>>>>
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were >>>>>>>>> many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better >>>>>>>>> bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real problems. >>>>>>>>> And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers could sell >>>>>>>>> enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride >>>>>>>>> much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element >>>>>>>>> bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they >>>>>>>>> could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing. >>>>>>>>>
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes >>>>>>>>> have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have >>>>>>>> features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in >>>>>>>> recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't sell
the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling feature over
comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others >>>>>>>> not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
I think your parallel between solid tires and disk brakes is a good one! >>>>>>>Good for my thesis, that is.
99.99% of road cyclists use pneumatic tires. For them, the much lower >>>>>>>rolling resistance, much greater comfort, lighter weight and better >>>>>>>handling are benefits that outweigh the detriment of the occasional flat.
For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim brakes. >>>>>>>For them, the mechanical simplicity, easy repair, long life of brake >>>>>>>shoes, almost universal availability of brake shoes, and perfectly >>>>>>>adequate stopping power under almost all circumstances outweigh having >>>>>>>to squeeze with two fingers instead of one, and stopping slightly more >>>>>>>quickly in the rain.
IOW, your "For some riders they are desirable and for others not" may be >>>>>>>true, but the magnitudes are far different. For the overwhelming >>>>>>>majority, disks are "desirable" only because marketing has taught people >>>>>>>to desire them.
I suspect more people simply see a new product and evaluate (for >>>>>>themselves) whether or not it's something they might want to look >>>>>>further in to. I don't believe the kind of marketing that goes beyond >>>>>>simply presenting a product, has all that much influence, except, >>>>>>perhaps, over people who can't think for themselves.
There are exceptions. (e.g. Jay.) But rare exceptions don't justify >>>>>>>throwing out rules. The tiny tail of the normal curve doesn't invalidate >>>>>>>the huge middle of the curve.
There are no rules.
Once again Frank flaunts his fantasies (:-)
But more to the point I suspect that the marketing that he so loudly >>>>>condemns is less a cause of anything then he so obviously fears. But >>>>>then he also fears the terrifying "Black Pickup Trucks"
True, an advertisement might encourage one to buy a box of HoopiDo >>>>>breakfast cereal, but no one is going to switch to the new cereal >>>>>unless it actually does taste better.
And of course we do have the matter of "conspicuous consumption" where >>>>>people buy things largely to flaunt their (imagined) superiority to >>>>>their neighbors....Look! Look at Me! I bought an Electric Car!
But is that a matter of marketing? Or a matter of insecurity? "I gotta >>>>>do something to show folks how superior I am".
...and the argument is so silly... People buy stuff that Krygowski >>>>says they don't need, and "worse," they do it for reasons that >>>>Krygowski doesn't approve of... and when Krankie FRankie whines and >>>>complains about it, they go right on doing it.
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
I might add that although I grew up in a small country town it was
only some 7 miles from Dartmouth Collage (for rich kids only) so we
did get to see modern contrivances (:-)
So, yet again our very own resident bigot thrills his readers with
false information.
..and now people are buying bikes with disk brakes, GPS computers, >>electronic shifters with 10/12 speed drives, battery operated lights,
and other new high-tech devices. Most people don't seem to mind that
one little bit, even if, for whatever reason, they aren't buying all
that new stuff.
On the other hnd, here we have a guy who is not willing, or perhaps
not able to keep up with the latest technology berate those who do.
It makes you wonder why he feeels the need to attack everything and >>everybody who chooses paths different from his. He acts as though
those people's choices are a personal affront to him.
They are not, of course, but the narcissistic not only needs to see
his choices as the best ones, he needs to have everyone else see it
that way too. When they clearly do not, the underlying message that >>Krygowski is insinuating is that many people, but certainly not
himself, are too weak to resist the dishonest marketers.
The narcissist blames everybody else for his feelings of inadequacy.
I don't believe it is so much an attack on technology as an effort to
justify himself. After all, if you consider yourself the ultimate
authority on anything you wish to comment on then obviously the items
that you select for your own use must be the best that exist.
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 06:09:53 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:58:31 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:51:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 2:21 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim brakes: >>>>>> It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech archives of >>>>>> the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant complaints about >>>>>> actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would >>>>>> justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort, >>>>>> because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very few >>>>>> such incidents.
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people >>>>> don't care!
That guy has no concept of what a _discussion_ group is.
A conversation where one person berates another because they do things >>>differently, is going well past what a discussion group is.
You berate people who do things differently than you by insinuating,
or saying outright, that they do not properly evaluate their needs.
He's all about "Why do you care?" AKA "Why discuss this?"
Indeed, why do you care what other people do when it has no effect on >>>you? It's not as if you're going to change their minds. In most cases >>>they've already done what you're berating them for.
Yet he leaps at every chance to disagree with me. Why does _he_ care?
There's a big difference between disagreeing and berating people for >>>disagreeing.
I think his life is empty of human contact for obvious reasons - and >>>>_not_ just because he's the manly individualist he claims. So he hangs >>>>out here slinging insults, hoping to feel better about himself.
Good, grief, Krygowski imagines that anybody is interested in what he >>>thinks about me.
He certainly isn't interested in technical points - well, beyond >>>>learning how to count spoke crossings!
("Let's see: One, two ... um, what's next?")
Calculating spoke length is a technical point, but evaluating what and >>>why other people prefer in bicycle brakes is not, especially when it's >>>already agreed that good quality rim or disk brakes are generally >>>adequate.
Frank's arguments are rather strange in that while the disc brake
advocates provide what they believe are facts, that the discs stop
better in the wet. Frank, offers no evidenced that rim brakes are
better... other then his say so.
There seems to be a certain arrogance here, "Rim brakes are better.. >>because I say so", that does seem to attract those who would rather
face reality rather then listen to a elderly bigot rant and rave.
Actually, he doesn't claim his preferences are the best, because he
can't support that claim. Instead, he simply proclaims that any other >preferences are wrong. It's easier for him to denounce the other
preferences than to attempt to justify his.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 16:10:24 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:06:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 12:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim
brakes: It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech
archives of the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant
complaints about actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those
complaints that would justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort,
because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very
few such incidents.
It's true that you have to go back 45~50 years to find actually
inadequate braking systems of any type on LBS level bicycles (crap
exists today on mail order and hardware store BSOs but even those are
rare, given regulation and the plaintiff's bar).
Don't discount the value of Veblen goods. They have a very real effect >>> > at both ends (camo duct tape enshrouded urban bikes are 'reverse >>>Veblen' as it were).
Sure, Veblen goods exist. (Did you read the chapter in Freakonomics
about the prostitute who greatly increased her prices?) But as you know, >>>I tend to deal more with practicalities, such as benefits vs. detriments. >>>
Marketing does have an effect of unknown weight at the margin else no
one would spend their money on it.
Oh, I think it affects much more than the margins!
While no amount of marketing will get
me to buy moisturizing skin cream, my ex may be persuaded to switch from >>> > Olay to Nivea or the reverse or try a new brand primarily through
marketing. There are severe limits to that effect (example: you're not >>> > buying a large black pickup truck even if both Ford and GM send you
mailers every day).
I'd say the great bulk of marketing effort is designed to ignore or >>>bypass practical and rational decision making. Which is sensible for the >>>marketers, because most consumer decisions seem to be governed more by >>>emotion than by practicality. And it works well for them, as
demonstrated by the size and success of the marketing industry.
Back to the hump of those bell curves; People really do look at the same >>> > facts, and agree they're true, and yet decide differently. This may be >>> > beyond simple explanation but it is very much true.
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>>decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny >>>rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They >>>don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their >>>product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!" >>>Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
Oh my, some people actually buy what they want to buy instead of not >>properly evaluating the facts and therefore not properly basing their >>decisions on advantages vs. disadvantages.
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
And. since Frankie disdains money flow, does he advise stealing or
begging?
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?)
entirely on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised,
what paid "reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's
fashionable. It's great for those selling the advertised
product. It's not necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider
their real needs, and consider whether a particular product
is the best way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you
have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?)
entirely on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised,
what paid "reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's
fashionable. It's great for those selling the advertised
product. It's not necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider
their real needs, and consider whether a particular product
is the best way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you
have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
On 10/29/2023 8:16 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:06:52 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
But what would a longer test ride tell me?
Experience, which a few rides isn’t much of, even talking to friends.
Experience, often just feelings, without some understanding of the
physical, biological and sometimes even psychological mechanisms at work
wouldn't tell you much, either.
The psychological point is a good one. We've had plenty of discussions
about the unreliability of "feel." There were the road test experts who couldn't tell the difference between different frame tubes, the young
racers whose "felt" benefit from frame stiffness disappeared when speeds
were measured, etc. All the way back to "Red bikes are fastest."
This has been discussed enough that it should somehow be permanently
posted: "What you 'feel' may not be real or important."
...I already know lever force is
lower, but lower is not necessarily better. The bike I rode beginning
1976 had long reach center pull brakes. Those got me (for example)
around Loch Ness and across the Appalachian Mountains. Yes, I had to
squeeze hard, but there were no major problems. Later, I converted that >>>> bike to cantilevers and had even fewer problems. No problems on any of >>>> the other bikes either, including the tandem.
I had problems with all these variants, when riding from and to work in
winter. I very much doubt that disk brakes _don't_ share some of these
problems, but I expect them to handle those problems somewhat better
than the best rim brakes I used for the aforementioned purpose in the
past, being short Shimano 105 brakes from 1995, Magura, V-Brake (all
heavily used) and Ultegra from 2010 (occasional rain only, no snow, no
salted slush).
On the other hand, disk brake ajustement and maintenance is no fun, in
comparison to a dual pivot brake like Shimano 105/Ultegra, or a short
V-Brake. Now being retired, I've a lot time at hand to fiddle around
with my bikes, but when I spent one or sometimes two hours on the road
to get to work each day, I wouldn't really have had time for that stuff.
People who handle their biycle like others handle their car, letting
other people do all the dirty work, might have a different view at the
matter.
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such, but I have a
strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work, including using
inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She always
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring. Only with the
new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even downhill.
That's interesting. I don't think of my wife as being extremely strong,
but I recall only two complaints from her about braking. One was the
only time I took her down a certain long and super-steep local hill, something over 10% I'm sure. We crept down at low speed. She then said something about the braking causing her back to be sore. I never
completely understood, but I made sure to avoid that hill with her.
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on her touring
bike. She said the new levers were too far a reach for her hands. So I
bent the levers to bring them closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if
that would be possible with hydraulic levers?)
On 10/29/2023 10:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely
on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised, what paid
"reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's
great for those selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily
good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real
needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of
fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk
brake bike? If not, why not?
That brings the obvious question - What ever happened to the formerly
well funded marketing juggernaut of Big Cantilever and their world
domination since you equipped your bicycle?
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely
on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised, what paid
"reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's
great for those selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily
good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real
needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of
fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk
brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto marketing.
Yes, Frank is very strong on implication and rather weak on facts.
I should have been more explicit and said something like he
"disparages discs and thus implies that rim brakes are the only thing acceptable".
On 10/30/2023 8:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based
(almost?) entirely on marketing - that is, based on
what's advertised, what paid "reviewers" say is best,
plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those
selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good
for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider
their real needs, and consider whether a particular
product is the best way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you
have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
That brings the obvious question - What ever happened to
the formerly well funded marketing juggernaut of Big
Cantilever and their world domination since you equipped
your bicycle?
:-)Â Actually, I began my switch to cantilevers (from long
reach center pull brakes) back when cantilevers were very
unusual. I read an article in which some frame builder was
asked about brake choices - which back then was probably
"side pull or center pull" in most people's minds - and the
frame builder talked about the benefits of cantis. I didn't
even know what they were.
It took several years before I converted my (then only)
bike. They worked so well they became my default choice. The
only disadvantage I've seen is somewhat trickier setup, plus
the possibility of the old L shaped ones to interfere with
panniers.
On 10/30/2023 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based
(almost?) entirely on marketing - that is, based on
what's advertised, what paid "reviewers" say is best,
plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those
selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good
for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider
their real needs, and consider whether a particular
product is the best way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you
have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto
marketing.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
On 10/30/2023 11:25 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based
(almost?) entirely on marketing - that is, based on
what's advertised, what paid "reviewers" say is best,
plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for
those selling the advertised product. It's not
necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately
consider their real needs, and consider whether a
particular product is the best way of fulfilling those
needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do
you have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
That brings the obvious question - What ever happened to
the formerly well funded marketing juggernaut of Big
Cantilever and their world domination since you equipped
your bicycle?
:-)Â Actually, I began my switch to cantilevers (from
long reach center pull brakes) back when cantilevers were
very unusual. I read an article in which some frame
builder was asked about brake choices - which back then
was probably "side pull or center pull" in most people's
minds - and the frame builder talked about the benefits
of cantis. I didn't even know what they were.
It took several years before I converted my (then only)
bike. They worked so well they became my default choice.
The only disadvantage I've seen is somewhat trickier
setup, plus the possibility of the old L shaped ones to
interfere with panniers.
'very unusual' ??
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/62/5c/a3/625ca3f771e0d588b2dbc576493e3695.jpg >>
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1258/img_20191119_095726_4498316691637948aa8af51f84cb1d175c9fed86.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7235/27792895952_eb23412f4f_b.jpg
https://members.tripod.com/old_school_cycles/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/taylor1.jpg
https://files.bikeindex.org/uploads/Pu/251866/98473253_1743989102410294_8564433202205163520_n.jpg
Yes, very unusual. You've done well at finding photos of
unusual bikes; but in the late 1970s to early 1980s, I think
over 95% of decent bikes had either center pull or side pull
brakes.
Granted, I was then in a small southern town with just one
small "good" bike shop, but it was quite a while before I
even saw a bike with cantilever brakes.
Were cantilevers really common up north in those days?
On 10/30/2023 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely
on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised, what paid
"reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's
great for those selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily
good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real
needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of
fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a
disk brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto marketing.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
You claimed magic powers of marketers, I dismissed that as overreaction.
On 10/30/2023 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely
on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised, what paid
"reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's
great for those selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily
good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real
needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of
fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a
disk brake bike? If not, why not?
That brings the obvious question - What ever happened to the formerly
well funded marketing juggernaut of Big Cantilever and their world
domination since you equipped your bicycle?
:-)Â Actually, I began my switch to cantilevers (from long reach
center pull brakes) back when cantilevers were very unusual. I read an
article in which some frame builder was asked about brake choices -
which back then was probably "side pull or center pull" in most
people's minds - and the frame builder talked about the benefits of
cantis. I didn't even know what they were.
It took several years before I converted my (then only) bike. They
worked so well they became my default choice. The only disadvantage
I've seen is somewhat trickier setup, plus the possibility of the old
L shaped ones to interfere with panniers.
'very unusual' ??
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/62/5c/a3/625ca3f771e0d588b2dbc576493e3695.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1258/img_20191119_095726_4498316691637948aa8af51f84cb1d175c9fed86.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7235/27792895952_eb23412f4f_b.jpg
https://members.tripod.com/old_school_cycles/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/taylor1.jpg
https://files.bikeindex.org/uploads/Pu/251866/98473253_1743989102410294_8564433202205163520_n.jpg
On 10/30/2023 11:27 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based
(almost?) entirely on marketing - that is, based on
what's advertised, what paid "reviewers" say is best,
plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for
those selling the advertised product. It's not
necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately
consider their real needs, and consider whether a
particular product is the best way of fulfilling those
needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do
you have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto
marketing.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
You claimed magic powers of marketers, I dismissed that as
overreaction.
??
Again: Why do you think my car buying decision was market
driven?
As a clue: I never once saw a TV ad nor magazine ad for this
car.
We're talking about people making purchases based
(almost?) entirely on marketing - that is, based on
what's advertised, what paid "reviewers" say is best,
plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for
those selling the advertised product. It's not
necessarily good for the customer.
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
There are plenty of tech that flops that no matter how many celebrities
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>> decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They
don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their
product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!"
Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
endorsements see oval rings for example, but bike tech is littered with
stuff that didn’t catch on, or the market has decided for example 650b
gravel bikes while a lot of marketing haven’t dominated the gravel sector
and are fairly niche, or plus sized tires for MTB and so on.
Of course! Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
On 10/30/2023 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based
(almost?) entirely on marketing - that is, based on
what's advertised, what paid "reviewers" say is best,
plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those
selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good
for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider
their real needs, and consider whether a particular
product is the best way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you
have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
That brings the obvious question - What ever happened to
the formerly well funded marketing juggernaut of Big
Cantilever and their world domination since you equipped
your bicycle?
:-) Actually, I began my switch to cantilevers (from long
reach center pull brakes) back when cantilevers were very
unusual. I read an article in which some frame builder was
asked about brake choices - which back then was probably
"side pull or center pull" in most people's minds - and the
frame builder talked about the benefits of cantis. I didn't
even know what they were.
It took several years before I converted my (then only)
bike. They worked so well they became my default choice. The
only disadvantage I've seen is somewhat trickier setup, plus
the possibility of the old L shaped ones to interfere with
panniers.
'very unusual' ??
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/62/5c/a3/625ca3f771e0d588b2dbc576493e3695.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1258/img_20191119_095726_4498316691637948aa8af51f84cb1d175c9fed86.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7235/27792895952_eb23412f4f_b.jpg
https://members.tripod.com/old_school_cycles/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/taylor1.jpg
https://files.bikeindex.org/uploads/Pu/251866/98473253_1743989102410294_8564433202205163520_n.jpg
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On 10/30/2023 10:35 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:Plainly Frank has absolutely no idea of the power of advertising - "EV's will save us from burning up in a firry hell." Then he, as a good citizen, runs out and buys an EV. Not saying that it was a bad choice. If he stays generally in his urban areas it
On 10/30/2023 11:25 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based
(almost?) entirely on marketing - that is, based on
what's advertised, what paid "reviewers" say is best,
plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for
those selling the advertised product. It's not
necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately
consider their real needs, and consider whether a
particular product is the best way of fulfilling those
needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do
you have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
That brings the obvious question - What ever happened to
the formerly well funded marketing juggernaut of Big
Cantilever and their world domination since you equipped
your bicycle?
:-) Actually, I began my switch to cantilevers (from
long reach center pull brakes) back when cantilevers were
very unusual. I read an article in which some frame
builder was asked about brake choices - which back then
was probably "side pull or center pull" in most people's
minds - and the frame builder talked about the benefits
of cantis. I didn't even know what they were.
It took several years before I converted my (then only)
bike. They worked so well they became my default choice.
The only disadvantage I've seen is somewhat trickier
setup, plus the possibility of the old L shaped ones to
interfere with panniers.
'very unusual' ??
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/62/5c/a3/625ca3f771e0d588b2dbc576493e3695.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1258/img_20191119_095726_4498316691637948aa8af51f84cb1d175c9fed86.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7235/27792895952_eb23412f4f_b.jpg
https://members.tripod.com/old_school_cycles/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/taylor1.jpg
https://files.bikeindex.org/uploads/Pu/251866/98473253_1743989102410294_8564433202205163520_n.jpg
Yes, very unusual. You've done well at finding photos of
unusual bikes; but in the late 1970s to early 1980s, I think
over 95% of decent bikes had either center pull or side pull
brakes.
Granted, I was then in a small southern town with just one
small "good" bike shop, but it was quite a while before I
even saw a bike with cantilever brakes.
Were cantilevers really common up north in those days?
Those are all bikes we sold then except for the Paramount (I
built Paramount tandems at a Schwinn dealership before
working here).
From tandems to popular Gitane Hosteler tourers to custom
Bob Jackson time trail frames with ultralight Mafac Jacky
they were not, as you note, as common as centerpulls but
hardly 'unusual'.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:21:33 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:56:25 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 7:21:21?PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote: >>>>>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people >>>>>> don't care!
Imagine a world where you want a buy a new car and the only one you can >>>>> get is an EV. Or if you want a new higher end car and the only one you >>>>> can buy is one with an automatic gearbox even if you prefer a manual. >>>>>
Lou
Indeed even the uk hill climb bikes, are now disk, simply as that?s where >>>> the market and demand has gone, and yes it?s a niche but I can see why >>>> folks are at having to change systems ie all their wheels are rim not disk >>>> and so on.
Roger Merriman
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
Similar in that both race up hills, but IÂ’d assume that the American is a >> UCI sanctioned race? Uk ones arenÂ’t hence bikes in the 5/6KG mark they do >> now have to have a helmet and lights but itÂ’s still fairly amateur.
Roger Merriman
I'm not sure. The site makes no mention of any sanctioning body only
the "Tin Mountain Conservation Center is a non-profit providing
education programs for school children, adults, and families that
foster greater awareness and understanding of the natural environment"
which seems to date from 1980 and the race seems to be 50 years old.
The entry fee is $350, helmets are required, and " Motorized/electric
bikes are NOT permitted and E-bikes/pedal assist bikes require an
exemption and do not place." Minimum age is 14 years.
There doesn't seem to be any bike specifications mentioned on their
site.
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
There are plenty of tech that flops that no matter how many celebrities
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>> decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They
don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their
product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!"
Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
endorsements see oval rings for example, but bike tech is littered with
stuff that didn’t catch on, or the market has decided for example 650b
gravel bikes while a lot of marketing haven’t dominated the gravel sector >> and are fairly niche, or plus sized tires for MTB and so on.
Of course! Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
On 10/30/2023 10:35 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 11:25 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?)
entirely on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised, what
paid "reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable.
It's great for those selling the advertised product. It's not
necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their
real needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best
way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a
disk brake bike? If not, why not?
That brings the obvious question - What ever happened to the
formerly well funded marketing juggernaut of Big Cantilever and
their world domination since you equipped your bicycle?
:-)Â Actually, I began my switch to cantilevers (from long reach
center pull brakes) back when cantilevers were very unusual. I read
an article in which some frame builder was asked about brake choices
- which back then was probably "side pull or center pull" in most
people's minds - and the frame builder talked about the benefits of
cantis. I didn't even know what they were.
It took several years before I converted my (then only) bike. They
worked so well they became my default choice. The only disadvantage
I've seen is somewhat trickier setup, plus the possibility of the
old L shaped ones to interfere with panniers.
'very unusual' ??
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/62/5c/a3/625ca3f771e0d588b2dbc576493e3695.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1258/img_20191119_095726_4498316691637948aa8af51f84cb1d175c9fed86.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7235/27792895952_eb23412f4f_b.jpg
https://members.tripod.com/old_school_cycles/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/taylor1.jpg
https://files.bikeindex.org/uploads/Pu/251866/98473253_1743989102410294_8564433202205163520_n.jpg
Yes, very unusual. You've done well at finding photos of unusual
bikes; but in the late 1970s to early 1980s, I think over 95% of
decent bikes had either center pull or side pull brakes.
Granted, I was then in a small southern town with just one small
"good" bike shop, but it was quite a while before I even saw a bike
with cantilever brakes.
Were cantilevers really common up north in those days?
Those are all bikes we sold then except for the Paramount (I built
Paramount tandems at a Schwinn dealership before working here).
From tandems to popular Gitane Hosteler tourers to custom Bob Jackson
time trail frames with ultralight Mafac Jacky they were not, as you
note, as common as centerpulls but hardly 'unusual'.
On 10/30/2023 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 11:27 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?)
entirely on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised, what
paid "reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable.
It's great for those selling the advertised product. It's not
necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their
real needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best
way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a
disk brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto marketing.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
You claimed magic powers of marketers, I dismissed that as overreaction.
??
Again: Why do you think my car buying decision was market driven?
As a clue: I never once saw a TV ad nor magazine ad for this car.
You, not I, claimed magic powers of marketers.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:25:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
There are plenty of tech that flops that no matter how many celebrities
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>>> decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They
don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their >>>> product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!" >>>> Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
endorsements see oval rings for example, but bike tech is littered with
stuff that didn’t catch on, or the market has decided for example 650b >>> gravel bikes while a lot of marketing haven’t dominated the gravel sector >>> and are fairly niche, or plus sized tires for MTB and so on.
Of course! Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
Everyone should understand, of course, that only Krygowski is
qualified to decide what is and isn't a "real benefit for the
customers."
(Actually, it might be fun.)
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use >>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race
without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill.
Notice the red gradient profile: >><https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington
road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on
your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Real hill climbs (:-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXoTvJw4N-I
On 10/30/2023 11:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 11:27 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:??
On 10/30/2023 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?)
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities. >>>>>>>
entirely on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised, what >>>>>>> paid "reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. >>>>>>> It's great for those selling the advertised product. It's not
necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their
real needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best >>>>>>> way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a >>>>>>> disk brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto marketing.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
You claimed magic powers of marketers, I dismissed that as overreaction. >>>
Again: Why do you think my car buying decision was market driven?
As a clue: I never once saw a TV ad nor magazine ad for this car.
You, not I, claimed magic powers of marketers.
I claim greatly effective promotional power. That's not the same as
saying there are none who are immune to those powers.
Again: Marketing is an effort on which huge fortunes are invested.
That's done because it works acceptably on the vast majority of people.
It doesn't have to work on everyone. Nothing does.
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race
without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill.
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington
road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on
your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend.
I wonder if a drag chute would make using the bicycle brakes a viable
option? <https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/60/20/49/a3a2d0c29b6ade/US3993323.pdf>
Real hill climbs (:-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXoTvJw4N-I
Not fair. Those are motorcycles, not bicycles.
After so many failed climbs, this rider made it look easy: <https://youtu.be/XXoTvJw4N-I?t=409>
On 10/30/2023 6:30 AM, John B. wrote:
Yes, Frank is very strong on implication and rather weak on facts.
I should have been more explicit and said something like he
"disparages discs and thus implies that rim brakes are the only thing
acceptable".
You'd do better to quote what I've actually said, rather than alluding
to statements I never made. Perhaps you've (again) forgotten what I've >actually said.
Instead of insults, why don't you ask me a factual question?
And/or why don't you answer a factual question or two? Do your bikes
have rim brakes or disk brakes? Why?
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your yearsThis strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes?
And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone would invent >>> road disk brakes?"
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and, eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing
customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real
problems. And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers
could sell enough units to amortize their production investments), the improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride
much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
On 10/30/2023 12:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race
without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill.
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington
road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on
your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend.
I wonder if a drag chute would make using the bicycle brakes a viable option? <https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/60/20/49/a3a2d0c29b6ade/US3993323.pdf>
Real hill climbs (:-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXoTvJw4N-I
Not fair. Those are motorcycles, not bicycles.
After so many failed climbs, this rider made it look easy: <https://youtu.be/XXoTvJw4N-I?t=409>
British cycling club hill climbs (road) have a long and
colorful history:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yskDTBxKWU4
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your
years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes?
And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone
would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts
of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and,
eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the
path
were smooth!"Â My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that
way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing
customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This
process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
note that the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking
were blatantly obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over
travois, etc. were blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious;
and so were many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic
tires, better bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved
real problems. And while they may have been marketed (so
manufacturers could sell enough units to amortize their production
investments), the improvements they delivered were real. Users could
immediately ride much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and
rolling element bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with
chain drive; they could climb previously impossible hills with
proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years
road bikes have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare
problems. They still stop well with rim brakes, and avoid
the complexities and incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only
difference noted by most users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have
features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in
recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't
sell the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling
feature over comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others
not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
One might also note that despite spectacular advances in firearms,
blade attacks, even fatal ones, remain common.
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
On 10/30/2023 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely
on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised, what paid
"reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's
great for those selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily
good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real
needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of
fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk
brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto marketing.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new? They had certain advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
Locally we had a club that would run a 900 foot to the peak hillclimb, but the total climbing distance with up and downs was 1200 feet. That is the only hill climb I can remember locally. They were all bugeyed at the finish when I came up from the otherdirection with 2 miles of 9%+ (9% at the bottom then mostly 10% then 11% and at the top 12%. I most certainly wasn't fast but that climb is where most of them would descend on ride days at extremely fast speeds. When I still had riding courage I would
fast as they were going so that they couldn't recover their loses.
On 10/30/2023 12:01 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:25:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
There are plenty of tech that flops that no matter how many celebrities >>>> endorsements see oval rings for example, but bike tech is littered with >>>> stuff that didn’t catch on, or the market has decided for example 650b >>>> gravel bikes while a lot of marketing haven’t dominated the gravel sector >>>> and are fairly niche, or plus sized tires for MTB and so on.
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>>>> decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They >>>>> don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their >>>>> product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!" >>>>> Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
Of course! Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
Everyone should understand, of course, that only Krygowski is
qualified to decide what is and isn't a "real benefit for the
customers."
(Actually, it might be fun.)
The tricycle rider seems very, very resistant to discussing any factual >points.
On 10/30/2023 11:43 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 11:27 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/30/2023 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:??
On 10/30/2023 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?)
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities. >>>>>>>
entirely on marketing - that is, based on what's advertised,
what paid "reviewers" say is best, plus perhaps on what's
fashionable. It's great for those selling the advertised
product. It's not necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their
real needs, and consider whether a particular product is the
best way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have
a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto marketing.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
You claimed magic powers of marketers, I dismissed that as overreaction. >>>
Again: Why do you think my car buying decision was market driven?
As a clue: I never once saw a TV ad nor magazine ad for this car.
You, not I, claimed magic powers of marketers.
I claim greatly effective promotional power. That's not the same as
saying there are none who are immune to those powers.
Again: Marketing is an effort on which huge fortunes are
invested. That's done because it works acceptably on the vast majority
of people. It doesn't have to work on everyone. Nothing does.
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 06:09:53 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>--
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:58:31 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:51:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 2:21 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim brakes: >>>>>> It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech archives of >>>>>> the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant complaints about >>>>>> actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would >>>>>> justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort, >>>>>> because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very few >>>>>> such incidents.
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people >>>>> don't care!
That guy has no concept of what a _discussion_ group is.
A conversation where one person berates another because they do things >>>differently, is going well past what a discussion group is.
You berate people who do things differently than you by insinuating,
or saying outright, that they do not properly evaluate their needs.
He's all about "Why do you care?" AKA "Why discuss this?"
Indeed, why do you care what other people do when it has no effect on >>>you? It's not as if you're going to change their minds. In most cases >>>they've already done what you're berating them for.
Yet he leaps at every chance to disagree with me. Why does _he_ care?
There's a big difference between disagreeing and berating people for >>>disagreeing.
I think his life is empty of human contact for obvious reasons - and >>>>_not_ just because he's the manly individualist he claims. So he hangs >>>>out here slinging insults, hoping to feel better about himself.
Good, grief, Krygowski imagines that anybody is interested in what he >>>thinks about me.
He certainly isn't interested in technical points - well, beyond >>>>learning how to count spoke crossings!
("Let's see: One, two ... um, what's next?")
Calculating spoke length is a technical point, but evaluating what and >>>why other people prefer in bicycle brakes is not, especially when it's >>>already agreed that good quality rim or disk brakes are generally >>>adequate.
Frank's arguments are rather strange in that while the disc brake
advocates provide what they believe are facts, that the discs stop
better in the wet. Frank, offers no evidenced that rim brakes are
better... other then his say so.
There seems to be a certain arrogance here, "Rim brakes are better.. >>because I say so", that does seem to attract those who would rather
face reality rather then listen to a elderly bigot rant and rave.
Actually, he doesn't claim his preferences are the best, because he
can't support that claim. Instead, he simply proclaims that any other >preferences are wrong. It's easier for him to denounce the other
preferences than to attempt to justify his.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 06:00:50 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 16:10:24 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:06:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 12:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 11:11 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim
brakes: It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech
archives of the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant
complaints about actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those >>>> >> complaints that would justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort, >>>> >> because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very >>>> >> few such incidents.
It's true that you have to go back 45~50 years to find actually
inadequate braking systems of any type on LBS level bicycles (crap
exists today on mail order and hardware store BSOs but even those are >>>> > rare, given regulation and the plaintiff's bar).
Don't discount the value of Veblen goods. They have a very real effect >>>> > at both ends (camo duct tape enshrouded urban bikes are 'reverse >>>>Veblen' as it were).
Sure, Veblen goods exist. (Did you read the chapter in Freakonomics >>>>about the prostitute who greatly increased her prices?) But as you know, >>>>I tend to deal more with practicalities, such as benefits vs. detriments. >>>>
Marketing does have an effect of unknown weight at the margin else no >>>> > one would spend their money on it.
Oh, I think it affects much more than the margins!
While no amount of marketing will get
me to buy moisturizing skin cream, my ex may be persuaded to switch from >>>> > Olay to Nivea or the reverse or try a new brand primarily through
marketing. There are severe limits to that effect (example: you're not >>>> > buying a large black pickup truck even if both Ford and GM send you
mailers every day).
I'd say the great bulk of marketing effort is designed to ignore or >>>>bypass practical and rational decision making. Which is sensible for the >>>>marketers, because most consumer decisions seem to be governed more by >>>>emotion than by practicality. And it works well for them, as >>>>demonstrated by the size and success of the marketing industry.
Back to the hump of those bell curves; People really do look at the same >>>> > facts, and agree they're true, and yet decide differently. This may be >>>> > beyond simple explanation but it is very much true.
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>>>decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny >>>>rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They >>>>don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their >>>>product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!" >>>>Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
Oh my, some people actually buy what they want to buy instead of not >>>properly evaluating the facts and therefore not properly basing their >>>decisions on advantages vs. disadvantages.
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
And. since Frankie disdains money flow, does he advise stealing or
begging?
Ultimately, the consumer pays for everything.
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> writes:
On 10/27/2023 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> writes:Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll
[ ... ]
And to bring focus back to disk brakes: Tell us, John, in your
years
of riding, how
much have you used disk brakes? How much have you used rim brakes?
And of your
rim brake miles, how often have you said "Damn! I wish someone
would invent
road disk brakes?"
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts
of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and,
eventually
harnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the
path
were smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that
way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing
customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This
process
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
note that the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking
were blatantly obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over
travois, etc. were blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious;
and so were many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic
tires, better bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved
real problems. And while they may have been marketed (so
manufacturers could sell enough units to amortize their production
investments), the improvements they delivered were real. Users could
immediately ride much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and
rolling element bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with
chain drive; they could climb previously impossible hills with
proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years
road bikes have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare
problems. They still stop well with rim brakes, and avoid
the complexities and incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only
difference noted by most users is lower required hand force. Meh.
That's wrong. Your list of 'improvements' are 'options' which have
features and foibles, being neither good nor bad inherently.
Example: We've installed solid section tires for a few commuters in
recent years (customers bring them here for installation; we don't
sell the products). Not flatting is seen by some as a compelling
feature over comfort, handling and efficiency.
Ditto disc brakes. For some riders they are desirable and for others
not. They have no inherent value as good nor bad.
One might also note that despite spectacular advances in firearms,
blade attacks, even fatal ones, remain common.
Strangling and beating (even without rocks) continue to work as they
always have.
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 06:09:53 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 15:58:31 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:51:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 2:21 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:11:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
About the advantages of disk brakes, or the disadvantages of rim brakes: >>>>>> It occurs to me that someone could go through the r.b.tech archives of >>>>>> the past 30 years or so and count up all the relevant complaints about >>>>>> actual bad incidents with rim brakes. I mean those complaints that would >>>>>> justify a switch to disks.
I think anyone starting such research would soon tire of the effort, >>>>>> because there would be lots and lots of searching to find very, very few >>>>>> such incidents.
But why does what kind of brakes other people prefer matter so much to >>>>> you that you rant and rave about it in reply after repy? Most people >>>>> don't care!
That guy has no concept of what a _discussion_ group is.
A conversation where one person berates another because they do things >>>differently, is going well past what a discussion group is.
You berate people who do things differently than you by insinuating,
or saying outright, that they do not properly evaluate their needs.
He's all about "Why do you care?" AKA "Why discuss this?"
Indeed, why do you care what other people do when it has no effect on >>>you? It's not as if you're going to change their minds. In most cases >>>they've already done what you're berating them for.
Yet he leaps at every chance to disagree with me. Why does _he_ care?
There's a big difference between disagreeing and berating people for >>>disagreeing.
I think his life is empty of human contact for obvious reasons - and >>>>_not_ just because he's the manly individualist he claims. So he hangs >>>>out here slinging insults, hoping to feel better about himself.
Good, grief, Krygowski imagines that anybody is interested in what he >>>thinks about me.
He certainly isn't interested in technical points - well, beyond >>>>learning how to count spoke crossings!
("Let's see: One, two ... um, what's next?")
Calculating spoke length is a technical point, but evaluating what and >>>why other people prefer in bicycle brakes is not, especially when it's >>>already agreed that good quality rim or disk brakes are generally >>>adequate.
Frank's arguments are rather strange in that while the disc brake
advocates provide what they believe are facts, that the discs stop
better in the wet. Frank, offers no evidenced that rim brakes are
better... other then his say so.
There seems to be a certain arrogance here, "Rim brakes are better.. >>because I say so", that does seem to attract those who would rather
face reality rather then listen to a elderly bigot rant and rave.
Actually, he doesn't claim his preferences are the best, because he
can't support that claim. Instead, he simply proclaims that any other >preferences are wrong. It's easier for him to denounce the other
preferences than to attempt to justify his.
On 10/30/2023 12:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race
without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill.
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington
road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on
your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend.
I wonder if a drag chute would make using the bicycle brakes a viable
option?
<https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/60/20/49/a3a2d0c29b6ade/US3993323.pdf>
On 10/30/2023 10:05 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/29/2023 10:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self
sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some
necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based
(almost?) entirely on marketing - that is, based on
what's advertised, what paid "reviewers" say is best,
plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those
selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good
for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider
their real needs, and consider whether a particular
product is the best way of fulfilling those needs.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you
have a disk brake bike? If not, why not?
Odd question from the hapless victim of electric auto
marketing.
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
You claimed magic powers of marketers, I dismissed that as
overreaction.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:20:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely on >>marketing -
No, you're the only one claiming that.
that is, based on what's advertised, what paid "reviewers"
say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those >>selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good for the customer. >>
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real
needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of >>fulfilling those needs.
Ahhh, I see. So, people who choose differently from you aren't
accurately considering their "real needs?" How unfortunate that they
didn't ask you what their "real needs" were before making their
purchases.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Well, obviously, because people shouldn't have to justify their
purchases to an old, insignificant blowhard like you.
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk
brake bike? If not, why not?
Instead of justifying his own choices, which he cannot do, Krygowski >routinely demands that others justify their preferences. That gives
him something he can attack and belittle, which, for some reason, he
believes validates his preferences.
It probably would slow the bicycle but as in most rules it is far
easier just to say "No riding bicycle DOWN the hill!"
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 11:05:24 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Why do you think my decision was marketing-driven?
Because all of the available products were designed to specifications provided by the various marketing departments. If you want something
not specified by marketing, you'll have to design and build it
yourself.
The purpose of marketing is not to sell you a product. That's the job
of sales. Marketing investigates the needs of the customer base,
determines which product(s) would make the customers happy, itemizes
the "must have" features and identifies the options. Marketing then
converts the proposed specifications into a cost to sales estimate and
a probable sales margin. Marketing also estimates how much the
average customer is willing to pay for the proposed product and how
many the company might expect to sell. Of course, this is a rush job
because first to market will usually grab most of the initial sales.
The specifications will also be a moving target and subject to
continuous change (which drives engineers nuts).
The difficult part is identifying WHY a typical customer will buy a particular product. At the low end, that's easy. It's the lowest
price and little else. The more affluent customers think in terms of
sex appeal, image, conspicuous consumption and how well it goes with
the latest fashions. Most of these are delivered in the form of
subliminals, symbology and color coding. Literally everything about
the appearance, smell and feel of the car is designed to deliver these subliminals etc. For example, a red and chrome sports car symbolizes
the hot rod you always wanted when you were much younger. That's the
bait to attract your attention. Once sales has your attention and you
return to reality, they can show you something appropriate for an
older and presumably wiser person.
One might assume that technology based buying decisions, such as disk
versus caliper brakes, are based on a carefully calculated basis.
That's probably true for racers, but for others, the main
considerations are still subliminals, symbology and color coding. For example, light colors make the bicycle look lighter than dark colors.
Black makes the bicycle look like an assault vehicle. Green
identifies the rider as eco friendly.
You might think you know why you made your decision, but my experience indicates that the real reasons for your buying decisions go much
deeper.
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 11:11:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 6:30 AM, John B. wrote:
Yes, Frank is very strong on implication and rather weak on facts.
I should have been more explicit and said something like he
"disparages discs and thus implies that rim brakes are the only thing
acceptable".
You'd do better to quote what I've actually said, rather than alluding
to statements I never made. Perhaps you've (again) forgotten what I've
actually said.
Instead of insults, why don't you ask me a factual question?
And/or why don't you answer a factual question or two? Do your bikes
have rim brakes or disk brakes? Why?
That might fall under none of your business.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and fashions even have come and gone.
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:25:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
There are plenty of tech that flops that no matter how many celebrities
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>>> decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They
don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their >>>> product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!" >>>> Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
endorsements see oval rings for example, but bike tech is littered with
stuff that didn’t catch on, or the market has decided for example 650b
gravel bikes while a lot of marketing haven’t dominated the gravel sector >>> and are fairly niche, or plus sized tires for MTB and so on.
Of course! Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of >>features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>customers. Do we need to start a list?
Everyone should understand, of course, that only Krygowski is
qualified to decide what is and isn't a "real benefit for the
customers."
No he didn't claim, in so many words, that "his" system was better but
he certainly claimed by inference that they were.
Which seems to his "ploy". Point out imaginary faults with "your"
system and what's left? Why "his" System of course!
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new? They had certain advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new?
They had certain advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:eventually
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and,
pathharnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the
processwere smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing
customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly
obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
I doubt very much that beasts would ever have been domesticated if it
was just for transportation. The costs are just too high, beasts were domesticated mostly for eating, transportation and other forms of work
came later.
If the benefits of wheeled carriages over travois were obvious then I
would have expected the plains Indians to have adopted wheeled
carriages. They didn't. They eagerly adopted horses, and became some
of the best horsemen in history, but they continued to use horses to
draw travois.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better
bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real
problems. And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers
could sell enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride
much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
And yet many posters here say that the advantages are "blatantly
obvious". Why should you get the final word on what is obvious and what
is not?
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 08:33:06 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
(chomp)
It probably would slow the bicycle but as in most rules it is far
easier just to say "No riding bicycle DOWN the hill!"
True, but there is a way to avoid the rulers of the road. Instead of
riding down the hill on the steep downhill road, descend with a
paraglider. The rulers of the road have no jurisdiction over
aircraft. Something like a biathlon.
Paragliding with a Bicycle - BIKE AND FLY! ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_x7NJh_NmI>
Flying Bicycle ! PPG max.eu Paraglider Pilot Tamas Tardy ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzx4SU_VikU>
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 05:19:32 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:20:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so
obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely on >>>marketing -
No, you're the only one claiming that.
that is, based on what's advertised, what paid "reviewers"
say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those >>>selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good for the customer. >>>
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real >>>needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of >>>fulfilling those needs.
Ahhh, I see. So, people who choose differently from you aren't
accurately considering their "real needs?" How unfortunate that they >>didn't ask you what their "real needs" were before making their
purchases.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Well, obviously, because people shouldn't have to justify their
purchases to an old, insignificant blowhard like you.
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk >>>brake bike? If not, why not?
Instead of justifying his own choices, which he cannot do, Krygowski >>routinely demands that others justify their preferences. That gives
him something he can attack and belittle, which, for some reason, he >>believes validates his preferences.
I think that Frank distorts wants, needs, and so on. For example he, >apparently, from his posts, had a custom made bicycle for two made.
Now, assuming that his wife isn't blind, or disabled in some manner,
there is no "need" for such a device. But yet he paid the money to
have one. Apparently because "I want one!"
If "I want one" is sufficient justification for the buying of a custom
made bicycle that you don't actually need, then why not brands of
cigarettes? Breakfast cereal, dogs, cats, or even wives?
On 10/30/2023 1:50 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 11:11:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 6:30 AM, John B. wrote:
Yes, Frank is very strong on implication and rather weak on facts.
I should have been more explicit and said something like he
"disparages discs and thus implies that rim brakes are the only thing
acceptable".
You'd do better to quote what I've actually said, rather than alluding
to statements I never made. Perhaps you've (again) forgotten what I've
actually said.
Instead of insults, why don't you ask me a factual question?
And/or why don't you answer a factual question or two? Do your bikes
have rim brakes or disk brakes? Why?
That might fall under none of your business.
That falls under "I don't want to discuss technology.
I just want to
hurl grade school insults."
This guy is like the yappy little Yorkshire Terrier that used to live
next door. Obnoxious noise any time she noticed me, but never a bit of
sense. Of course, I'm sure she was proud of her barking.
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, theyapparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that
promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that
surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom
bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went
away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
On 10/30/2023 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
No he didn't claim, in so many words, that "his" system was better but
he certainly claimed by inference that they were.
Which seems to his "ploy". Point out imaginary faults with "your"
system and what's left? Why "his" System of course!
John, I believe I'm talking about _our_ system. As far as I know, both
you and I have bikes with rim brakes, not disks.
So you've made the same choice as I have, yet you insult the choice! Did
you forget?
How strange your thinking is!
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 12:01:48 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:25:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
There are plenty of tech that flops that no matter how many celebrities >>>> endorsements see oval rings for example, but bike tech is littered with >>>> stuff that didn’t catch on, or the market has decided for example 650b >>>> gravel bikes while a lot of marketing haven’t dominated the gravel sector >>>> and are fairly niche, or plus sized tires for MTB and so on.
I think the more common event is people _not_ looking at the facts. They >>>>> decide based on other factors.
So that industry doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to the tiny
rational, practical tail of the potential customer normal curve. They >>>>> don't often list advantages vs. disadvantages. Instead, they say their >>>>> product is "New!" or "Better!" or "Innovative!" or "Sexy!" or "Safer!" >>>>> Again, it works well for them. The money flows from the customers.
Of course! Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of >>>features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>customers. Do we need to start a list?
Everyone should understand, of course, that only Krygowski is
qualified to decide what is and isn't a "real benefit for the
customers."
But, what is "real benefit"? Frank owns an electric car, for example,
what is the "real benefit" of owning such a device. And... he also
owns a motorcycle and a bicycle. If you already own an auto what is
the "real benefit" of the motorcycle and bicycle.
On 10/30/2023 1:50 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
eventuallyOn 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and,
pathharnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if the
processwere smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing
customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly
obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
I doubt very much that beasts would ever have been domesticated if it
was just for transportation. The costs are just too high, beasts were domesticated mostly for eating, transportation and other forms of work
came later.
That's very much beside the point! Whatever the reason for ownership of >beasts, once they realized they could use them to transport people and
loads, the benefits were obvious. They didn't need an advertising
company to tell them.
If the benefits of wheeled carriages over travois were obvious then I
would have expected the plains Indians to have adopted wheeled
carriages. They didn't. They eagerly adopted horses, and became some
of the best horsemen in history, but they continued to use horses to
draw travois.
At some point, once they had access to the technology, Indians did adopt >wheeled carriages. They don't still use travois. See >https://images.app.goo.gl/vsTSYfMiJRYxNjHa6
The nomadic tribes of the plains didn't have the fixed workshops and >equipment necessary to produce suitable wheels. Heck, they didn't even
have really good sources of wood. Once wheels could be bought from >Euro-Americans, they used them.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better
bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real
problems. And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers
could sell enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride
much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
And yet many posters here say that the advantages are "blatantly
obvious". Why should you get the final word on what is obvious and what
is not?
I'm not claiming my words should be final. I'm interested in the
discussion going beyond trendy fashion into actual benefits and detriments.
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new?
I didn't think so, but I don't know for sure. Much to my disappointment,
my copy of Sharp's _Bicycles and Tricycles_ has only three minor
mentions of brakes!
They had certain advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers decided
to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or do
all your bikes use disk brakes?
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:03:13 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 05:19:32 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:20:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely on >>>>marketing -
No, you're the only one claiming that.
that is, based on what's advertised, what paid "reviewers"
say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those >>>>selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good for the customer. >>>>
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real >>>>needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of >>>>fulfilling those needs.
Ahhh, I see. So, people who choose differently from you aren't
accurately considering their "real needs?" How unfortunate that they >>>didn't ask you what their "real needs" were before making their >>>purchases.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Well, obviously, because people shouldn't have to justify their
purchases to an old, insignificant blowhard like you.
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk >>>>brake bike? If not, why not?
Instead of justifying his own choices, which he cannot do, Krygowski >>>routinely demands that others justify their preferences. That gives
him something he can attack and belittle, which, for some reason, he >>>believes validates his preferences.
I think that Frank distorts wants, needs, and so on. For example he, >>apparently, from his posts, had a custom made bicycle for two made.
Now, assuming that his wife isn't blind, or disabled in some manner,
there is no "need" for such a device. But yet he paid the money to
have one. Apparently because "I want one!"
If "I want one" is sufficient justification for the buying of a custom
made bicycle that you don't actually need, then why not brands of >>cigarettes? Breakfast cereal, dogs, cats, or even wives?
Most people have lots of things that Krygowki would likely say they
don't need. The fact that that he has such a problem with that is very >strange, indeed, but it's fun to watch. He's kind of a male Karen.
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race
without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill.
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington
road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on
your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend.
I wonder if a drag chute would make using the bicycle brakes a viable
option? <https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/60/20/49/a3a2d0c29b6ade/US3993323.pdf>
Real hill climbs (:-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXoTvJw4N-I
Not fair. Those are motorcycles, not bicycles.
After so many failed climbs, this rider made it look easy: <https://youtu.be/XXoTvJw4N-I?t=409>
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:42:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
No he didn't claim, in so many words, that "his" system was better but
he certainly claimed by inference that they were.
Which seems to his "ploy". Point out imaginary faults with "your"
system and what's left? Why "his" System of course!
John, I believe I'm talking about _our_ system. As far as I know, both
you and I have bikes with rim brakes, not disks.
you forget?
No, he did not "insult the choice," he simply insulted your insistence
that other choices were wrong.
How strange your thinking is!
More irony there.....
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race
without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill.
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington
road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on
your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend.
While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to
be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay >for this. So don’t want bikes.
Can’t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a >choice was made.
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 03:11:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:03:13 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 05:19:32 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:20:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely on >>>>> marketing -
No, you're the only one claiming that.
that is, based on what's advertised, what paid "reviewers"
say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those >>>>> selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real
needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of
fulfilling those needs.
Ahhh, I see. So, people who choose differently from you aren't
accurately considering their "real needs?" How unfortunate that they
didn't ask you what their "real needs" were before making their
purchases.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Well, obviously, because people shouldn't have to justify their
purchases to an old, insignificant blowhard like you.
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk >>>>> brake bike? If not, why not?
Instead of justifying his own choices, which he cannot do, Krygowski
routinely demands that others justify their preferences. That gives
him something he can attack and belittle, which, for some reason, he
believes validates his preferences.
I think that Frank distorts wants, needs, and so on. For example he,
apparently, from his posts, had a custom made bicycle for two made.
Now, assuming that his wife isn't blind, or disabled in some manner,
there is no "need" for such a device. But yet he paid the money to
have one. Apparently because "I want one!"
If "I want one" is sufficient justification for the buying of a custom
made bicycle that you don't actually need, then why not brands of
cigarettes? Breakfast cereal, dogs, cats, or even wives?
Most people have lots of things that Krygowki would likely say they
don't need. The fact that that he has such a problem with that is very
strange, indeed, but it's fun to watch. He's kind of a male Karen.
Gee, the benefits of the Internet. I had thought that the "Karens"
were a "tribe" of people living mostly in South Western "Burma" who
have been in revolt against the central government since the mid
1900's.
And now I discover that you have "Karens" in America too (:-)
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race
without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill.
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which, >>>> I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington
road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on
your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend.
While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to >> be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay >> for this. So donÂ’t want bikes.
CanÂ’t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a
choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation,
drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike
crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's
lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply
forbid bicycles.
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:42:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
No he didn't claim, in so many words, that "his" system was better but >>>> he certainly claimed by inference that they were.
John, I believe I'm talking about _our_ system. As far as I know, both
you and I have bikes with rim brakes, not disks.
yet you insult the choice! Did
you forget?
How strange your thinking is!
The interesting thing about Franks posts is the assumptions he makes.
"So you've made the same choice as I have,"
I've never, but once in my life, made a choice about brakes on any
vehicle I've owned. I bought it, cars, trucks, motorcycles and
bicycles and rode or drove it. And yes, in some cases the brakes may
not have been as strong as possible but I just altered my
driving/riding, to match.
In fact, thinking back I can only remember one choice I ever made
about a bicycle - we are talking about bicycles here - and I chose the
Red one rather then the yellow one (:-)
On 10/31/2023 5:31 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:42:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
No he didn't claim, in so many words, that "his" system
was better but
he certainly claimed by inference that they were.
John, I believe I'm talking about _our_ system. As far
as I know, both
you and I have bikes with rim brakes, not disks.
yet you insult the choice! Did
you forget?
How strange your thinking is!
The interesting thing about Franks posts is the
assumptions he makes.
"So you've made the same choice as I have,"
I've never, but once in my life, made a choice about
brakes on any
vehicle I've owned. I bought it, cars, trucks, motorcycles
and
bicycles and rode or drove it. And yes, in some cases the
brakes may
not have been as strong as possible but I just altered my
driving/riding, to match.
In fact, thinking back I can only remember one choice I
ever made
about a bicycle - we are talking about bicycles here - and
I chose the
Red one rather then the yellow one (:-)
I believe you've forgotten something. You've posted many
times about building your own bicycle from tubing up. You
claimed you did the torch work yourself.
If that's true, the odds are very good that you chose the
brakes for that bike.
So which is true? That you built a bike from scratch? Or
that you've never chosen bike brakes?
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
On 10/31/2023 5:31 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:42:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
No he didn't claim, in so many words, that "his" system was better but >>>>> he certainly claimed by inference that they were.
John, I believe I'm talking about _our_ system. As far as I know, both >>>> you and I have bikes with rim brakes, not disks.
yet you insult the choice! Did
you forget?
How strange your thinking is!
The interesting thing about Franks posts is the assumptions he makes.
"So you've made the same choice as I have,"
I've never, but once in my life, made a choice about brakes on any
vehicle I've owned. I bought it, cars, trucks, motorcycles and
bicycles and rode or drove it. And yes, in some cases the brakes may
not have been as strong as possible but I just altered my
driving/riding, to match.
In fact, thinking back I can only remember one choice I ever made
about a bicycle - we are talking about bicycles here - and I chose the
Red one rather then the yellow one (:-)
I believe you've forgotten something. You've posted many times about
building your own bicycle from tubing up. You claimed you did the torch
work yourself.
If that's true, the odds are very good that you chose the brakes for
that bike.
So which is true? That you built a bike from scratch? Or that you've
never chosen bike brakes?
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes are on your >bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 5:31 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:42:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
No he didn't claim, in so many words, that "his" system was better >>>>>> but
he certainly claimed by inference that they were.
John, I believe I'm talking about _our_ system. As far as I know, both >>>>> you and I have bikes with rim brakes, not disks.
yet you insult the choice! Did
you forget?
How strange your thinking is!
The interesting thing about Franks posts is the assumptions he makes.
"So you've made the same choice as I have,"
I've never, but once in my life, made a choice about brakes on any
vehicle I've owned. I bought it, cars, trucks, motorcycles and
bicycles and rode or drove it. And yes, in some cases the brakes may
not have been as strong as possible but I just altered my
driving/riding, to match.
In fact, thinking back I can only remember one choice I ever made
about a bicycle - we are talking about bicycles here - and I chose the
Red one rather then the yellow one (:-)
I believe you've forgotten something. You've posted many times about
building your own bicycle from tubing up. You claimed you did the
torch work yourself.
If that's true, the odds are very good that you chose the brakes for
that bike.
So which is true? That you built a bike from scratch? Or that you've
never chosen bike brakes?
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes are on
your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:00:53 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new? They had certain advantages: >>simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive >>marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I don't know about the "performance" thing but the Wright Bros sold
bicycle with coaster brakes - their business dated back to 1897, I
believe.
On 10/30/2023 1:50 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:eventually
On 10/27/2023 11:22 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
This strikes me as a very weird sort of rhetorical question.
For untold millenia, human beings got to where they wanted to go by
walking or running. Eventually we learned to sometimes use beasts of
burden, from asses to elephants to human litter bearers, and,
the pathharnessed them to wheeled carriages.
In all that time, how often do you think someone said "Damn! I wish
someone would invent a wheeled device that would allow me to propel
myself using my own legs, but several times faster, at least if
processwere smooth!" My guess is *zero*, people just don't think that way.
But when bicycles became available many decided they wanted one.
The whole history of technological progress is one of bringing
customers
products they didn't know they needed, until they had one. This
began long before modern ideas of psychological marketing arose. W
Yes, that was the process before modern marketing. And I'll note that
the transport benefits of beasts of burden vs. walking were blatantly
obvious. The benefits of wheeled carriages over travois, etc. were
blatantly obvious. No marketing was necessary.
I doubt very much that beasts would ever have been domesticated if it
was just for transportation. The costs are just too high, beasts were
domesticated mostly for eating, transportation and other forms of work
came later.
That's very much beside the point! Whatever the reason for ownership
of beasts, once they realized they could use them to transport people
and loads, the benefits were obvious. They didn't need an advertising
company to tell them.
If the benefits of wheeled carriages over travois were obvious then I
would have expected the plains Indians to have adopted wheeled
carriages. They didn't. They eagerly adopted horses, and became some
of the best horsemen in history, but they continued to use horses to
draw travois.
At some point, once they had access to the technology, Indians did
adopt wheeled carriages. They don't still use travois. See https://images.app.goo.gl/vsTSYfMiJRYxNjHa6
The nomadic tribes of the plains didn't have the fixed workshops and equipment necessary to produce suitable wheels. Heck, they didn't even
have really good sources of wood. Once wheels could be bought from Euro-Americans, they used them.
The advantages of bicycles over horses were also obvious; and so were
many of the enhancements to bicycles, such as pneumatic tires, better
bearings, chain drives, multiple gears. Those solved real
problems. And while they may have been marketed (so manufacturers
could sell enough units to amortize their production investments), the
improvements they delivered were real. Users could immediately ride
much faster and/or easier with pneumatics and rolling element
bearings; they could abandon high wheelers with chain drive; they
could climb previously impossible hills with proper gearing.
This is not true of road bike disk brakes. For 100+ years road bikes
have stopped well with rim brakes, with only rare problems. They still
stop well with rim brakes, and avoid the complexities and
incompatibilities inherent in disks. The only difference noted by most
users is lower required hand force. Meh.
And yet many posters here say that the advantages are "blatantly
obvious". Why should you get the final word on what is obvious and what
is not?
I'm not claiming my words should be final. I'm interested in the
discussion going beyond trendy fashion into actual benefits and
detriments.
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
whole safety bicycle thing was new?
I didn't think so, but I don't know for sure. Much to my
disappointment, my copy of Sharp's _Bicycles and Tricycles_ has only
three minor mentions of brakes!
They had certain advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:00:53 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw >>>>> had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw >>>>> a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not >>>>> yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new? They had certain advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I don't know about the "performance" thing but the Wright Bros sold
bicycle with coaster brakes - their business dated back to 1897, I
believe.
I thought that if you bought a high quality, sporty bicycle back in 1897
it almost certainly had a coaster brake. Wikipedia says the first
patent for Bowden cable was 1896. I don't know when rod brakes first
became available.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
--
- Frank Krygowski
On 10/31/2023 12:47 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:00:53 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw >>>>>> had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw >>>>>> a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not >>>>>> yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that >>>>> it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were >>>>> normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new? They had certain advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal" >>>> than that of any other time.
I don't know about the "performance" thing but the Wright Bros sold
bicycle with coaster brakes - their business dated back to 1897, I
believe.
I thought that if you bought a high quality, sporty bicycle back in 1897
it almost certainly had a coaster brake. Wikipedia says the first
patent for Bowden cable was 1896. I don't know when rod brakes first
became available.
Yes, IRC stirrup brakes are shortly after 1900.
Not much for 1898 but 1897 show more fixed gear than CB:
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1897-bsa-fittings-machine-with-simpson-lever-chain/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/18971898-centaur-gents-no-2-roadster/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1897-humber-coventry-light-roadster/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
Here's a fixed gear 1898 Columbia: https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/artifact/282937
ISTR Lillian Russell's gold plated Columbia with diamonds in the head
badge (1905 or so?) had CB but can't find spec or photos for it.
p.s. Marilyn Monroe as Lillian Russell: https://p7.storage.canalblog.com/77/76/312561/130286587_o.jpg
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy
a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy
a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes
usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is
that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never
heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say
a completely new system was needed.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them >without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations.
They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing
returns.
On 10/31/2023 2:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/31/2023 12:47 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:00:53 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists
have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only
bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the
rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my
teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim
brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I
don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population
was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe)
rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were
not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance
bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new? They had certain
advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But
then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and
the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any
more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I don't know about the "performance" thing but the
Wright Bros sold
bicycle with coaster brakes - their business dated back
to 1897, I
believe.
I thought that if you bought a high quality, sporty
bicycle back in 1897
it almost certainly had a coaster brake. Wikipedia says
the first
patent for Bowden cable was 1896. I don't know when rod
brakes first
became available.
Yes, IRC stirrup brakes are shortly after 1900.
Not much for 1898 but 1897 show more fixed gear than CB:
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1897-bsa-fittings-machine-with-simpson-lever-chain/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/18971898-centaur-gents-no-2-roadster/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1897-humber-coventry-light-roadster/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
Here's a fixed gear 1898 Columbia:
https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/artifact/282937
ISTR Lillian Russell's gold plated Columbia with diamonds
in the head badge (1905 or so?) had CB but can't find spec
or photos for it.
p.s. Marilyn Monroe as Lillian Russell:
https://p7.storage.canalblog.com/77/76/312561/130286587_o.jpg
That Monroe image and this Lillian image https://www.pinterest.com/pin/482870391273039862/Â both seem
to show fixed gears, not coaster brakes. There's no reaction
arm visible in either image.
I'm not finding visible reaction arms in almost any photos
of ancient bikes.
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/31/2023 3:53 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 03:11:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:03:13 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 05:19:32 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 23:20:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 7:00 PM, John B. wrote:
"The money flows from the customer". I like that.
But, what is the solution? One can not be totally self sufficient so >>>>>>> obviously one has to buy, beg, borrow or steal some necessities.
We're talking about people making purchases based (almost?) entirely on >>>>>> marketing -
No, you're the only one claiming that.
that is, based on what's advertised, what paid "reviewers"
say is best, plus perhaps on what's fashionable. It's great for those >>>>>> selling the advertised product. It's not necessarily good for the customer.
I'd say it's better for customers to accurately consider their real >>>>>> needs, and consider whether a particular product is the best way of >>>>>> fulfilling those needs.
Ahhh, I see. So, people who choose differently from you aren't
accurately considering their "real needs?" How unfortunate that they >>>>> didn't ask you what their "real needs" were before making their
purchases.
Why do you think that's a bad idea?
Well, obviously, because people shouldn't have to justify their
purchases to an old, insignificant blowhard like you.
Or to be more specific on the disk brake question: Do you have a disk >>>>>> brake bike? If not, why not?
Instead of justifying his own choices, which he cannot do, Krygowski >>>>> routinely demands that others justify their preferences. That gives
him something he can attack and belittle, which, for some reason, he >>>>> believes validates his preferences.
I think that Frank distorts wants, needs, and so on. For example he,
apparently, from his posts, had a custom made bicycle for two made.
Now, assuming that his wife isn't blind, or disabled in some manner,
there is no "need" for such a device. But yet he paid the money to
have one. Apparently because "I want one!"
If "I want one" is sufficient justification for the buying of a custom >>>> made bicycle that you don't actually need, then why not brands of
cigarettes? Breakfast cereal, dogs, cats, or even wives?
Most people have lots of things that Krygowki would likely say they
don't need. The fact that that he has such a problem with that is very
strange, indeed, but it's fun to watch. He's kind of a male Karen.
Gee, the benefits of the Internet. I had thought that the "Karens"
were a "tribe" of people living mostly in South Western "Burma" who
have been in revolt against the central government since the mid
1900's.
And now I discover that you have "Karens" in America too (:-)
Karen sustained history's longest insurgency until sort of
dissipating ten or so years ago. Very romantic but not very
effective.
in re marketing: Nice flag with bicycle hub or something
like it: >https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vF9iTnmgiak/SvvVSlkM7uI/AAAAAAAAAAM/YnhXpTV_npI/s320/Karen_National_Union_Flag.png
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy
a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes
usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is
that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never
heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say
a completely new system was needed.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations.
They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing
returns.
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks usingdramatic,
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and
fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that
promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that
surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom
bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went
away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy
a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes
usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position
is that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost
never heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let
alone say a completely new system was needed.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain
situations. They also have disadvantages. But like most things related
to good quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the
diminishing returns.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and
fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went
away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media personalities ie Froome it’s note made it into mainstream see also oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
But again, why do you care about what other's do? Why do you continue
to pester people about that?
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I use them occasionally still be that hire bikes or my folks E bikes, which have fairly cheap v brakes which for the leisurely pace and type of terrain they are expected to be used on are fine, not perhaps inspiring.
But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 5:31 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:42:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
No he didn't claim, in so many words, that "his" system
was better but
he certainly claimed by inference that they were.
John, I believe I'm talking about _our_ system. As far
as I know, both
you and I have bikes with rim brakes, not disks.
yet you insult the choice! Did
you forget?
How strange your thinking is!
The interesting thing about Franks posts is the
assumptions he makes.
"So you've made the same choice as I have,"
I've never, but once in my life, made a choice about
brakes on any
vehicle I've owned. I bought it, cars, trucks, motorcycles
and
bicycles and rode or drove it. And yes, in some cases the
brakes may
not have been as strong as possible but I just altered my
driving/riding, to match.
In fact, thinking back I can only remember one choice I
ever made
about a bicycle - we are talking about bicycles here - and
I chose the
Red one rather then the yellow one (:-)
I believe you've forgotten something. You've posted many
times about building your own bicycle from tubing up. You
claimed you did the torch work yourself.
If that's true, the odds are very good that you chose the
brakes for that bike.
So which is true? That you built a bike from scratch? Or
that you've never chosen bike brakes?
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake
marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>>>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race >>>>>> without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill. >>>>>>
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which, >>>>> I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington
road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on >>>>> your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend.
While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to >>> be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay >>> for this. So don?t want bikes.
Can?t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a
choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation,
drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike
crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's
lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply
forbid bicycles.
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so >on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Roger Merriman
the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:If you like in area that is dry and clean maybe the advantages are minimal, most folks though don’t in my experience people do notice the difference is it as pronounced as off road? No.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy
a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes
usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is
that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never
heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say
a completely new system was needed.
But it’s a fairly obvious performance improvement, as noted before I don’t
know if your simply not listening to other riders or they don’t speak to about that, you seem fairly closed minded to disk.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them
without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations.
They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing
returns.
...
But for the vast majority who also remember chose disks over rims while the Pro circuit made up more and more improbable reasons why they were
dangerous and so on, ie lots of negative publicity about how they had eaten Chris Froome’s homework and so on. And yet general public bought disks.
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:38:24 p.m. UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and
fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that
promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that
surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom
bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went
away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them. >>>
exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media
personalities ie Froome it’s note made it into mainstream see also
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
My understanding is that the AX series of Shimano products were discontinued because of the advent of Index shifting.
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:46:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake
marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
(:-) Mostly because I haven't bought a new bike in more then 10, maybe
15 years, I can't even remember how long ago I bought one. After all
the two I have here in the "retirement house" still work perfectly.
(:-)
As for Franks assertion of having to select a brake to build a bike
frame. Nope. I built the frame and then found a brake that would work
with the existing holes in the fork crown and seat stay brace.
Unless, of course, you interpret "select" as fishing used brakes out
of the drawer and holding them up to the frame to see if they would
fit.
On 10/31/2023 6:23 PM, Catrike Rider yapped obnxiously just 12 minutes
after I posted.
But again, why do you care about what other's do? Why do you continue
to pester people about that?
Why does he continue to pester me?
(Probably because nobody will talk to him in real life. What a sad and
angry old codger.)
On 10/31/2023 8:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I use them occasionally still be that hire bikes or my folks E bikes, which >> have fairly cheap v brakes which for the leisurely pace and type of terrain >> they are expected to be used on are fine, not perhaps inspiring.
But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
Which illustrates my point. Rim brakes are almost always perfectly fine.
Almost nobody wants their brakes to be "inspiring." They just want them
to work. Very few cyclists push even rim brakes to the limits of their >capability. Any improvement in braking due to disks is down in the realm
of diminishing returns.
Due to some complaints here, let me emphasize: If you really want disk >brakes, fine. But as with other contentious topics (helmets, segregated >facilities, chain lubes, super-bright lights etc.) what you think you
"need" is probably exaggerated, and probably isn't really needed by any
other particular cyclist.
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:59:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesnÂ’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so >> on. IÂ’d assume itÂ’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Until a car overtakes you and slams on its brakes as soon as it's in
your path.
Bikes are stationary objects. The possibility that a bike might be travelling faster than is safe for a vehicle that isn't supposed to go
around corners on two wheels will never come to mind.
On 10/31/2023 8:25 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:If you like in area that is dry and clean maybe the advantages are minimal, >> most folks though don’t in my experience people do notice the difference is >> it as pronounced as off road? No.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy >>>> a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes
usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is
that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never
heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say
a completely new system was needed.
But it’s a fairly obvious performance improvement, as noted before I don’t >> know if your simply not listening to other riders or they don’t speak to
about that, you seem fairly closed minded to disk.
Most of our club members still ride with rim brakes. That's because
unlike a certain poster here, these folks don't have their own personal >Bicycle Of The Month club.
I can think of maybe ten people with disk brakes. Not one has said
anything to me about the performance improvement. (And no, none of them
know what I think about disks. We simply haven't talked about it.)
The one guy who did talk to me about his disk brakes was (like me) a
past president of the club. He was explaining the weird noise the brake >sometimes made, and telling me he'd had the bike back to the shop
several times trying to solve that. I forget how the problem was solved.
I tend to talk about tech issues here, not on club rides.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them
without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations.
They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing
returns.
...
But for the vast majority who also remember chose disks over rims while the >> Pro circuit made up more and more improbable reasons why they were
dangerous and so on, ie lots of negative publicity about how they had eaten >> Chris Froome’s homework and so on. And yet general public bought disks.
The general public is now buying disks because the bike industry is now >selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for road disks.
Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This change was force on
the public.
On 10/31/2023 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:46:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake
marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
(:-) Mostly because I haven't bought a new bike in more then 10, maybe
15 years, I can't even remember how long ago I bought one. After all
the two I have here in the "retirement house" still work perfectly.
(:-)
Brakes and all, apparently! Thank you for admitting that!
As for Franks assertion of having to select a brake to build a bike
frame. Nope. I built the frame and then found a brake that would work
with the existing holes in the fork crown and seat stay brace.
That's very, very odd. Were I to build a bike from tubing, I'd be
working out the dimensions in detail, not putting holes in random places
then scrounging for old parts that might fit!
(One of the Professional Engineers I hired repeatedly to teach our upper >level classes used to build beautiful custom frames. I remember him
doing "workshop" lectures about the process at a bike rally I attended,
long before I hired him for teaching. In those pre-CAD days, he drew
detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant detail.)
Unless, of course, you interpret "select" as fishing used brakes out
of the drawer and holding them up to the frame to see if they would
fit.
I'd say that's a distinction without a difference. My point is you did
not say, when building the bike, "I'm going to make sure I can fit disk >brakes on this frame, because rim brakes are inadequate." Instead, you
never even thought much about the brakes. You felt that any old rim
brake would suffice.
Which is even a step beyond what I've been saying. Again, thank you.
On 10/31/2023 8:25 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:If you like in area that is dry and clean maybe the advantages are minimal, >> most folks though don’t in my experience people do notice the difference is
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy >>>> a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes
usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is
that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never
heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say
a completely new system was needed.
it as pronounced as off road? No.
But it’s a fairly obvious performance improvement, as noted before I don’t
know if your simply not listening to other riders or they don’t speak to >> about that, you seem fairly closed minded to disk.
Most of our club members still ride with rim brakes. That's because
unlike a certain poster here, these folks don't have their own personal Bicycle Of The Month club.
I can think of maybe ten people with disk brakes. Not one has said
anything to me about the performance improvement. (And no, none of them
know what I think about disks. We simply haven't talked about it.)
The one guy who did talk to me about his disk brakes was (like me) a
past president of the club. He was explaining the weird noise the brake sometimes made, and telling me he'd had the bike back to the shop
several times trying to solve that. I forget how the problem was solved.
I tend to talk about tech issues here, not on club rides.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them
without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations.
They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing
returns.
...
But for the vast majority who also remember chose disks over rims while the >> Pro circuit made up more and more improbable reasons why they were
dangerous and so on, ie lots of negative publicity about how they had eaten >> Chris Froome’s homework and so on. And yet general public bought disks.
The general public is now buying disks because the bike industry is now selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for road disks.
Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This change was force on
the public.
On 10/31/2023 8:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I use them occasionally still be that hire bikes or my folks E bikes, which >> have fairly cheap v brakes which for the leisurely pace and type of terrain >> they are expected to be used on are fine, not perhaps inspiring.
But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
Which illustrates my point. Rim brakes are almost always perfectly fine.
Almost nobody wants their brakes to be "inspiring." They just want them
to work. Very few cyclists push even rim brakes to the limits of their capability. Any improvement in braking due to disks is down in the realm
of diminishing returns.
Due to some complaints here, let me emphasize: If you really want disk brakes, fine. But as with other contentious topics (helmets, segregated facilities, chain lubes, super-bright lights etc.) what you think you
"need" is probably exaggerated, and probably isn't really needed by any
other particular cyclist.
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 22:14:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:46:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake
marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
(:-) Mostly because I haven't bought a new bike in more then 10, maybe
15 years, I can't even remember how long ago I bought one. After all
the two I have here in the "retirement house" still work perfectly.
(:-)
Brakes and all, apparently! Thank you for admitting that!
As for Franks assertion of having to select a brake to build a bike
frame. Nope. I built the frame and then found a brake that would work
with the existing holes in the fork crown and seat stay brace.
That's very, very odd. Were I to build a bike from tubing, I'd be
working out the dimensions in detail, not putting holes in random places >>then scrounging for old parts that might fit!
(One of the Professional Engineers I hired repeatedly to teach our upper >>level classes used to build beautiful custom frames. I remember him
doing "workshop" lectures about the process at a bike rally I attended, >>long before I hired him for teaching. In those pre-CAD days, he drew >>detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant detail.)
Unless, of course, you interpret "select" as fishing used brakes out
of the drawer and holding them up to the frame to see if they would
fit.
I'd say that's a distinction without a difference. My point is you did
not say, when building the bike, "I'm going to make sure I can fit disk >>brakes on this frame, because rim brakes are inadequate." Instead, you >>never even thought much about the brakes. You felt that any old rim
brake would suffice.
Which is even a step beyond what I've been saying. Again, thank you.
Well, no, what you've been saying is that people who prefer disk
brakes are wrong. That's very different from saying "any old rim brake
would suffice."
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 21:57:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 8:25 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:If you like in area that is dry and clean maybe the advantages are minimal, >>> most folks though don’t in my experience people do notice the difference is >>> it as pronounced as off road? No.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am >>>>> cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy >>>>> a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes
usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is >>>> that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never >>>> heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say >>>> a completely new system was needed.
But it’s a fairly obvious performance improvement, as noted before I don’t >>> know if your simply not listening to other riders or they don’t speak to >>> about that, you seem fairly closed minded to disk.
Most of our club members still ride with rim brakes. That's because
unlike a certain poster here, these folks don't have their own personal >>Bicycle Of The Month club.
I can think of maybe ten people with disk brakes. Not one has said
anything to me about the performance improvement. (And no, none of them >>know what I think about disks. We simply haven't talked about it.)
The one guy who did talk to me about his disk brakes was (like me) a
past president of the club. He was explaining the weird noise the brake >>sometimes made, and telling me he'd had the bike back to the shop
several times trying to solve that. I forget how the problem was solved.
I tend to talk about tech issues here, not on club rides.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them >>>> without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations.
They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing
returns.
...
But for the vast majority who also remember chose disks over rims while the >>> Pro circuit made up more and more improbable reasons why they were
dangerous and so on, ie lots of negative publicity about how they had eaten >>> Chris Froome’s homework and so on. And yet general public bought disks.
The general public is now buying disks because the bike industry is now >>selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for road disks.
Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This change was force on
the public.
Ahhh, I see, disk brake users are victims of force and didn't even
know it. We should thank Krygowski for pointing that out.
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 04:48:33 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 22:14:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:46:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake
marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
(:-) Mostly because I haven't bought a new bike in more then 10, maybe >>>> 15 years, I can't even remember how long ago I bought one. After all
the two I have here in the "retirement house" still work perfectly.
(:-)
Brakes and all, apparently! Thank you for admitting that!
As for Franks assertion of having to select a brake to build a bike
frame. Nope. I built the frame and then found a brake that would work
with the existing holes in the fork crown and seat stay brace.
That's very, very odd. Were I to build a bike from tubing, I'd be
working out the dimensions in detail, not putting holes in random places >>>then scrounging for old parts that might fit!
(One of the Professional Engineers I hired repeatedly to teach our upper >>>level classes used to build beautiful custom frames. I remember him
doing "workshop" lectures about the process at a bike rally I attended, >>>long before I hired him for teaching. In those pre-CAD days, he drew >>>detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant detail.) >>>
Unless, of course, you interpret "select" as fishing used brakes out
of the drawer and holding them up to the frame to see if they would
fit.
I'd say that's a distinction without a difference. My point is you did >>>not say, when building the bike, "I'm going to make sure I can fit disk >>>brakes on this frame, because rim brakes are inadequate." Instead, you >>>never even thought much about the brakes. You felt that any old rim
brake would suffice.
Which is even a step beyond what I've been saying. Again, thank you.
Well, no, what you've been saying is that people who prefer disk
brakes are wrong. That's very different from saying "any old rim brake >>would suffice."
Frank certainly knows how to play the part of an idiot. When you buy
fork crown come from the manufacturer with a hole in it, obviously for
the brake. See >https://www.framebuilding.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/NEWIMAGES/Cast%20F4.gif
And the rear end is the same, see >https://www.framebuilding.com/Graphicpages/014_BRIDGES2003.gif
As for his Professor chap, of course you draw a full scale layout of
your tubing, fork offset and all the other importunate dimensions, but
a "detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant
detail" is hard to believe... if the chap was compensate.
Does a machinist draw a full size drawing of every part he makes?
Accurate to the last 1/1000 of an inch?
Nope, I think foolish Frank is telling stories again.
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 04:25:06 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 21:57:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski >><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 8:25 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:If you like in area that is dry and clean maybe the advantages are minimal,
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am >>>>>> cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy >>>>>> a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes >>>>> usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is >>>>> that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never >>>>> heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say >>>>> a completely new system was needed.
most folks though don’t in my experience people do notice the difference is
it as pronounced as off road? No.
But it’s a fairly obvious performance improvement, as noted before I don’t >>>> know if your simply not listening to other riders or they don’t speak to >>>> about that, you seem fairly closed minded to disk.
Most of our club members still ride with rim brakes. That's because >>>unlike a certain poster here, these folks don't have their own personal >>>Bicycle Of The Month club.
I can think of maybe ten people with disk brakes. Not one has said >>>anything to me about the performance improvement. (And no, none of them >>>know what I think about disks. We simply haven't talked about it.)
The one guy who did talk to me about his disk brakes was (like me) a
past president of the club. He was explaining the weird noise the brake >>>sometimes made, and telling me he'd had the bike back to the shop
several times trying to solve that. I forget how the problem was solved. >>>I tend to talk about tech issues here, not on club rides.
The general public is now buying disks because the bike industry is now >>>selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for road disks. >>>Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This change was force on >>>the public.And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them >>>>> without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the >>>>> past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations. >>>>> They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing >>>>> returns.
...
But for the vast majority who also remember chose disks over rims while the
Pro circuit made up more and more improbable reasons why they were
dangerous and so on, ie lots of negative publicity about how they had eaten
Chris Froome’s homework and so on. And yet general public bought disks. >>>
Ahhh, I see, disk brake users are victims of force and didn't even
know it. We should thank Krygowski for pointing that out.
You just don't get it.
You see, Americans are an incredibly stupid people that will believe
anything that they see on the web or in any other advertising media.
As soon as they see something new they grab their money and run (not
walk), run to the store to buy this NEW thing.
All a manufacturing company has to do is throw some money at the
advert firm , post the resulting advert in a public place and buy a
shovel to scoop all the money that is thrown at them....
At least according foolish Frankie.
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
--I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less maintenance.
- Frank Krygowski
Lou
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>> On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less maintenance.Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>>>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after >>>> both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Lou
On 10/31/2023 5:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 2:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/31/2023 12:47 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:00:53 -0400, Radey Shouman
<sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists
have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only
bicycles I saw
had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the
rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my
teens before I saw
a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim
brakes. (and I'm not
yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I
don't know that
it's true disproof. The American cycling population
was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe)
rim brakes were
normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were
not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance
bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new? They had certain
advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But
then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and
the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any
more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I don't know about the "performance" thing but the
Wright Bros sold
bicycle with coaster brakes - their business dated back
to 1897, I
believe.
I thought that if you bought a high quality, sporty
bicycle back in 1897
it almost certainly had a coaster brake. Wikipedia says
the first
patent for Bowden cable was 1896. I don't know when rod
brakes first
became available.
Yes, IRC stirrup brakes are shortly after 1900.
Not much for 1898 but 1897 show more fixed gear than CB:
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1897-bsa-fittings-machine-with-simpson-lever-chain/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/18971898-centaur-gents-no-2-roadster/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1897-humber-coventry-light-roadster/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
Here's a fixed gear 1898 Columbia:
https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/artifact/282937
ISTR Lillian Russell's gold plated Columbia with diamonds
in the head badge (1905 or so?) had CB but can't find spec
or photos for it.
p.s. Marilyn Monroe as Lillian Russell:
https://p7.storage.canalblog.com/77/76/312561/130286587_o.jpg
That Monroe image and this Lillian image https://www.pinterest.com/pin/482870391273039862/ both seem
to show fixed gears, not coaster brakes. There's no reaction
arm visible in either image.
I'm not finding visible reaction arms in almost any photos
of ancient bikes.
Not then anyway. New Departure really was a new departure
but hey took a while to get going.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 18:01:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after >> both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?It's terribly important for Krygowski to know what other people do. He
hopes and prays that they make the same choices as he does, as that
helps to validate his choices. If they don't, he will lecture them
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy
a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
I live in an area where winters are both usually wet and temperatures moderate enough to ride. I never once worried about having to apply the brakes a little before needing maximum braking in the wet.Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say
a completely new system was needed.
If you like in area that is dry and clean maybe the advantages are minimal, most folks though don’t in my experience people do notice the difference is
it as pronounced as off road? No.
But it’s a fairly obvious performance improvement, as noted before I don’t
know if your simply not listening to other riders or they don’t speak to about that, you seem fairly closed minded to disk.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations.
They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing returns.
I’m not convinced that for example hill climbers will get much out of them,
and are disadvantages with road racing namely the slightly slower wheel change and incompatibility for neutral services and so on.
But for the vast majority who also remember chose disks over rims while the Pro circuit made up more and more improbable reasons why they were
dangerous and so on, ie lots of negative publicity about how they had eaten Chris Froome’s homework and so on. And yet general public bought disks.
Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for them selves to the PR and hype actually
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and
fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went
away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media personalities ie Froome it’s note made it into mainstream see also oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy
a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position
is that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost
never heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let
alone say a completely new system was needed.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use them without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certainA bicycle I have now is better than one I have to buy. A bird in the
situations. They also have disadvantages. But like most things related
to good quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing returns.
hand is a significant advantage. But, comparing one new bike to another,
I suspect that disk brakes really are better.
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well afterBut you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less maintenance.
- Frank Krygowski
LouWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 21:40:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 6:23 PM, Catrike Rider yapped obnxiously just 12 minutes >after I posted.
But again, why do you care about what other's do? Why do you continue
to pester people about that?
Why does he continue to pester me?Partially because you irrittated me way back before you became afraid
to address me directly about the things I do that you don't approve
of.
Partially because it's so entertaining to see you run away from my
posts.
Partially because I believe that identifying your narcissism to others
is helpful.
(Probably because nobody will talk to him in real life. What a sad and >angry old codger.)When a narcissist feels threatened, such as when their views about themselves, others, and the world do not match their made-up
fantasies, or they encounter someone who appears to have a quality
they lack, such as real confidence and popularity, they tend to
demean and bully the other person. Narcissists will also belittle
anyone who challenges them or won't submit to their will as well,
causing the narcissist to use cruel tactics like bullying and
intimidation to get what they want.
The only way they know how to neutralize a threat and to improve
their diminishing ego is to bully and demean the other individual
into submission. They may do this in a dismissive or patronizing
manner to prove the individual means nothing to them (which is
often not true) or they might attack with insults, name-calling,
bullying, and threaten the other person to back off and know their
place. Do these tactics work? Not always, especially if a non-
narcissist can outwit the narcissist or are aware of these signs and
can act accordingly to handle the situation in an appropriate manner.
https://tinyurl.com/yncneagp
On 11/1/2023 9:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:Everything needs maintenance. And everything has some
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less maintenance.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky >>>> marketeers got involved.
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable. >>>>
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>>>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Lou
(usually small) measurable failure rate. Rim and disc
systems are different in particulars but not in principle.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 18:08:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 04:48:33 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 22:14:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski >><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:46:29 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake
marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
(:-) Mostly because I haven't bought a new bike in more then 10, maybe >>>> 15 years, I can't even remember how long ago I bought one. After all >>>> the two I have here in the "retirement house" still work perfectly. >>>> (:-)
Brakes and all, apparently! Thank you for admitting that!
As for Franks assertion of having to select a brake to build a bike >>>> frame. Nope. I built the frame and then found a brake that would work >>>> with the existing holes in the fork crown and seat stay brace.
That's very, very odd. Were I to build a bike from tubing, I'd be >>>working out the dimensions in detail, not putting holes in random places >>>then scrounging for old parts that might fit!
(One of the Professional Engineers I hired repeatedly to teach our upper >>>level classes used to build beautiful custom frames. I remember him >>>doing "workshop" lectures about the process at a bike rally I attended, >>>long before I hired him for teaching. In those pre-CAD days, he drew >>>detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant detail.)
Unless, of course, you interpret "select" as fishing used brakes out >>>> of the drawer and holding them up to the frame to see if they would >>>> fit.
I'd say that's a distinction without a difference. My point is you did >>>not say, when building the bike, "I'm going to make sure I can fit disk >>>brakes on this frame, because rim brakes are inadequate." Instead, you >>>never even thought much about the brakes. You felt that any old rim >>>brake would suffice.
Which is even a step beyond what I've been saying. Again, thank you.
Well, no, what you've been saying is that people who prefer disk
brakes are wrong. That's very different from saying "any old rim brake >>would suffice."
Frank certainly knows how to play the part of an idiot. When you buy
fork crown come from the manufacturer with a hole in it, obviously for
the brake. See >https://www.framebuilding.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/NEWIMAGES/Cast%20F4.gif
And the rear end is the same, see >https://www.framebuilding.com/Graphicpages/014_BRIDGES2003.gif
As for his Professor chap, of course you draw a full scale layout of
your tubing, fork offset and all the other importunate dimensions, but
a "detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant >detail" is hard to believe... if the chap was compensate.
Does a machinist draw a full size drawing of every part he makes?
Accurate to the last 1/1000 of an inch?
Nope, I think foolish Frank is telling stories again.Imaginary people can do wonderful things...
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:I realize what you mean but the small amount of cable maintenance is more than compensated for the extra cost of the hydraulic levers.
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well afterBut you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less maintenance.
- Frank Krygowski
I am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance, not much but still.LouWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
Lou
On 11/1/2023 9:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:Everything needs maintenance. And everything has some
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less maintenance.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky >>>> marketeers got involved.
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable. >>>>
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>>>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Lou
(usually small) measurable failure rate. Rim and disc
systems are different in particulars but not in principle.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>> On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to theFrank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>>>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after >>>> both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes
although hydraulic for less maintenance.
Lou
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:When was the last time you wore a brake cable out? I suppose it is possible but I certainly can't remember any recently. And isn't a hydraulic leak more likely? the slightest air in the system absolute disables hydraulic brakes.
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky >>>> marketeers got involved.
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable. >>>>
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>>>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes
although hydraulic for less maintenance.
Lou
It’s the sealed aspect isn’t it, though he’s talking about hydraulic rim
brakes but broadly same thing no cable to replace etc.
Rim brakes have a number of moving parts and bearing or springs. Hydraulic systems are comparatively simple in comparison.
Roger Merriman
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:26:00 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:I live in an area where winters are both usually wet and temperatures moderate enough to ride. I never once worried about having to apply the brakes a little before needing maximum braking in the wet.
On 10/31/2023 1:51 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:If you like in area that is dry and clean maybe the advantages are minimal, >> most folks though don’t in my experience people do notice the difference is
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
Are _you_ still riding bikes with rim brakes? If so, why?
Yes. I have already in reply to Mr. Ridesalot that it's because I am
cheap and conservative and don't love having new things. Were I to buy >>>> a new bicycle I would choose one with disk brakes.
Here's my point in asking that question: Those extolling disk brakes
usually mention comparative disadvantages of rim brakes. My position is
that the disadvantages are very minor. As I've said, I've almost never
heard an avid rider actually complain about their brakes, let alone say
a completely new system was needed.
it as pronounced as off road? No.
But it’s a fairly obvious performance improvement, as noted before I don’t
know if your simply not listening to other riders or they don’t speak to >> about that, you seem fairly closed minded to disk.
And it seems that you are satisfied enough with rim brakes to use themI’m not convinced that for example hill climbers will get much out of them,
without serious complaint. I think the same is true of John. It's
certainly true of me - just like almost all avid road cyclists of the
past many decades.
Are road disks "better"? They have advantages for certain situations.
They also have disadvantages. But like most things related to good
quality modern bikes, any advantages are way down in the diminishing
returns.
and are disadvantages with road racing namely the slightly slower wheel
change and incompatibility for neutral services and so on.
But for the vast majority who also remember chose disks over rims while the >> Pro circuit made up more and more improbable reasons why they were
dangerous and so on, ie lots of negative publicity about how they had eaten >> Chris Froome’s homework and so on. And yet general public bought disks.
Roger Merriman
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 8:28:40 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:When was the last time you wore a brake cable out? I suppose it is
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:It’s the sealed aspect isn’t it, though he’s talking about hydraulic rim
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky >>>>>> marketeers got involved.
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable. >>>>>>
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>>>>>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after >>>>>> both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes
although hydraulic for less maintenance.
Lou
don't have in spades?
brakes but broadly same thing no cable to replace etc.
Rim brakes have a number of moving parts and bearing or springs. Hydraulic >> systems are comparatively simple in comparison.
Roger Merriman
possible but I certainly can't remember any recently. And isn't a
hydraulic leak more likely? the slightest air in the system absolute
disables hydraulic brakes.
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:24:14?PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 18:01:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:It's terribly important for Krygowski to know what other people do. He
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after >> >> both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
hopes and prays that they make the same choices as he does, as that
helps to validate his choices. If they don't, he will lecture them
You ride a recumbent tricycle that doesn't have the serious safety problems of disc brakes. Although it pains me to agree with Frank he is quite correct - NOBODY was asking for "better" brakes on road bikes.
Discs were useful on MTB's which have many times the traction of a road bike. But the ONLY reason that they were changed over to road bikes is so that they could make superlight carbon wheels that didn't have a dangerous, wearing rim brake surface onthem.
Pro racers were then paid to use them despite the fact that most didn't like them. Then the copycat sport riders adapted them to be like their heroes.
The entire switch to disc brakes was based on nothing more than the need of manufacturers to sell new bikes.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Until recently bike’s were sold as disk or rim, at the high to mid end, but rim brakes just haven’t sold.
The general public is now buying disks because the bike industry is now
selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for road disks.
Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This change was force on
the public.
folks who wanted better performance, ie disk brakes and as most folks will have if briefly used, disks so will be aware that it could be better, don’t assume your experience is universal everything suggests it’s not.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: >>>> On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less maintenance.Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky >>>>> marketeers got involved.
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable. >>>>>
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>>>>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after >>>>> both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Lou
I am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance, not much but still.
On 11/1/2023 5:30 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Until recently bike’s were sold as disk or rim, at the high to mid end, but >> rim brakes just haven’t sold.
The general public is now buying disks because the bike industry is now
selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for road disks.
Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This change was force on
the public.
The heart of the question here is: Why? How could rim brakes be
essentially universal on bikes for decades, yet within a span of five
years start not selling? Did people who had ridden avidly for 20+ years >suddenly realize "Gosh, I just noticed that my brakes have been terrible
all along" ?
No. The push came from above (the manufacturers) not from below (the
riders).
I suspect the beginning was the introduction of carbon fiber wheels,
whose braking surface was worse than aluminum; but the percentage of >non-racing riders on CF wheels is still minuscule, partly because that's
yet another incidence of negligible benefit, unless (or maybe even if)
you're a racer. But for racers using CF wheels, disk brakes were a help.
Now what is it that causes the typical MAMIL to buy what the winning
racers are using?
The answer is _marketing_. That is, after all, why manufacturers support >racers. And I believe it's likely that the first step towards road disk >popularity was "Oooh, the pros are using disks! I want to be like the
pros! [Except half as fast.]" I believe that inspired component
manufacturers and bike manufacturers to say "Hey, here's our next big
_churn_ opportunity!"
Once that was decided, the rest was easy. Sell the highest end road
bikes only with disks, even though they don't have CF rims. Give a year
or two for potential customers to see "Hmm. All the _best_ bikes have
disks!" That leads to "Only disks are good," followed by "Our entire
line of bikes has disks because they're just better."
The switch is now about complete. If you go into a bike shop go buy an >enthusiast level bike, you have to buy disk brakes. But the situation
arose from the top, not from the consumers.
(And BTW, I'm far from the only person making this claim.)
folks who wanted better performance, ie disk brakes and as most folks will >> have if briefly used, disks so will be aware that it could be better, don’t >> assume your experience is universal everything suggests it’s not.
Obviously, I think my experience is much more universal than the
opposite. I don't think that masses of riders decided the brakes they
used without complaint for decades had suddenly become inadequate.
Only a couple people posting here have admitted that they're still
riding rim brakes. But it's not because the rest are all using disks.
It's because the rim brakes are still performing satisfactorily.
BTW, there's been talk here that I ride only pancake flat areas. Last
week my daughter took me on a new ride route. The handlebar mounted >inclinometer she had given me some years ago was reading over 16% for >stretches.
I admit, it nearly killed me. But my brakes did just fine. In
fact, as usual, I never even thought about them.
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 04:48:33 -0400, Catrike Riderplaces
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 22:14:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:46:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake
marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
(:-) Mostly because I haven't bought a new bike in more then 10, maybe
15 years, I can't even remember how long ago I bought one. After all
the two I have here in the "retirement house" still work perfectly.
(:-)
Brakes and all, apparently! Thank you for admitting that!
As for Franks assertion of having to select a brake to build a bike
frame. Nope. I built the frame and then found a brake that would work
with the existing holes in the fork crown and seat stay brace.
That's very, very odd. Were I to build a bike from tubing, I'd be
working out the dimensions in detail, not putting holes in random
upperthen scrounging for old parts that might fit!
(One of the Professional Engineers I hired repeatedly to teach our
detail.)level classes used to build beautiful custom frames. I remember him
doing "workshop" lectures about the process at a bike rally I attended,
long before I hired him for teaching. In those pre-CAD days, he drew
detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant
Unless, of course, you interpret "select" as fishing used brakes out
of the drawer and holding them up to the frame to see if they would
fit.
I'd say that's a distinction without a difference. My point is you did
not say, when building the bike, "I'm going to make sure I can fit disk
brakes on this frame, because rim brakes are inadequate." Instead, you
never even thought much about the brakes. You felt that any old rim
brake would suffice.
Which is even a step beyond what I've been saying. Again, thank you.
Well, no, what you've been saying is that people who prefer disk
brakes are wrong. That's very different from saying "any old rim brake
would suffice."
Frank certainly knows how to play the part of an idiot. When you buy
fork crown come from the manufacturer with a hole in it, obviously for
the brake. See https://www.framebuilding.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/NEWIMAGES/Cast%20F4.gif
And the rear end is the same, see https://www.framebuilding.com/Graphicpages/014_BRIDGES2003.gif
As for his Professor chap, of course you draw a full scale layout of
your tubing, fork offset and all the other importunate dimensions, but
a "detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant
detail" is hard to believe... if the chap was compensate.
Does a machinist draw a full size drawing of every part he makes?
Accurate to the last 1/1000 of an inch?
When was the last time you wore a brake cable out? I suppose it is possible but I certainly can't remember any recently.
On 10/31/2023 12:47 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:00:53 -0400, Radey ShoumanI thought that if you bought a high quality, sporty bicycle back in
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/28/2023 9:24 PM, John B. wrote:
"For the past 100+ years, 99.99% of road cyclists have used rim
brakes".
Actually that isn't true as when I was a lad the only bicycles I saw >>>>>> had "coaster brakes", a single internal brake on the rear wheel
actuated by pedaling backwards. I was well into my teens before I saw >>>>>> a "English racing bike" with cable operated rim brakes. (and I'm not >>>>>> yet 100+ years old (:-)
That's a valid criticism of my statement, although I don't know that >>>>> it's true disproof. The American cycling population was very small
compared to the rest of the world, where (I believe) rim brakes were >>>>> normal. And many of the kids on coaster brakes were not "road
cyclists." Instead they were sidewalk cyclists.
Weren't coaster brakes once usual on performance bicycles, when the
whole safety bicycle thing was new? They had certain advantages:
simplicity and compatibility with wooden rims. But then agressive
marketers pushed unneeded rim brakes on the world, and the rest is
history. The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I don't know about the "performance" thing but the Wright Bros sold
bicycle with coaster brakes - their business dated back to 1897, I
believe.
1897
it almost certainly had a coaster brake. Wikipedia says the first
patent for Bowden cable was 1896. I don't know when rod brakes first
became available.
Yes, IRC stirrup brakes are shortly after 1900.
Not much for 1898 but 1897 show more fixed gear than CB:
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1897-bsa-fittings-machine-with-simpson-lever-chain/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/18971898-centaur-gents-no-2-roadster/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1897-humber-coventry-light-roadster/?tax=date_tax&tid=131
Here's a fixed gear 1898 Columbia: https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/artifact/282937
ISTR Lillian Russell's gold plated Columbia with diamonds in the head
badge (1905 or so?) had CB but can't find spec or photos for it.
p.s. Marilyn Monroe as Lillian Russell: https://p7.storage.canalblog.com/77/76/312561/130286587_o.jpg
OK that was a nice digression. Back to CB it seems they only just
started during 1898, patent not finalized until 1907: https://connecticuthistory.org/the-coaster-brake-today-in-history/
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
I live in an area where winters are both usually wet and temperatures
moderate enough to ride. I never once worried about having to apply the
brakes a little before needing maximum braking in the wet.
It may rain but it’s hardly a wet climate, the area is a comfortably a Mediterranean type, with some arid areas further south of you.
Just the satellite view will tell you that ie the colour of the land,
compare the colours to Catstrike or even Frank area and both are much
greener areas.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 12:33:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:30 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Until recently bike’s were sold as disk or rim, at the high to mid end, but
The general public is now buying disks because the bike industry is now >>> selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for road disks.
Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This change was force on >>> the public.
rim brakes just haven’t sold.
The heart of the question here is: Why? How could rim brakes be >essentially universal on bikes for decades, yet within a span of five >years start not selling? Did people who had ridden avidly for 20+ years >suddenly realize "Gosh, I just noticed that my brakes have been terrible >all along" ?
No. The push came from above (the manufacturers) not from below (the >riders).
I suspect the beginning was the introduction of carbon fiber wheels,
whose braking surface was worse than aluminum; but the percentage of >non-racing riders on CF wheels is still minuscule, partly because that's >yet another incidence of negligible benefit, unless (or maybe even if) >you're a racer. But for racers using CF wheels, disk brakes were a help.
Now what is it that causes the typical MAMIL to buy what the winning >racers are using?
The answer is _marketing_. That is, after all, why manufacturers support >racers. And I believe it's likely that the first step towards road disk >popularity was "Oooh, the pros are using disks! I want to be like the >pros! [Except half as fast.]" I believe that inspired component >manufacturers and bike manufacturers to say "Hey, here's our next big >_churn_ opportunity!"
Once that was decided, the rest was easy. Sell the highest end road
bikes only with disks, even though they don't have CF rims. Give a year
or two for potential customers to see "Hmm. All the _best_ bikes have >disks!" That leads to "Only disks are good," followed by "Our entire
line of bikes has disks because they're just better."
The switch is now about complete. If you go into a bike shop go buy an >enthusiast level bike, you have to buy disk brakes. But the situation >arose from the top, not from the consumers....as did electric vehicles.
(And BTW, I'm far from the only person making this claim.)
folks who wanted better performance, ie disk brakes and as most folks will
have if briefly used, disks so will be aware that it could be better, don’t
assume your experience is universal everything suggests it’s not.
Obviously, I think my experience is much more universal than theNo, I imagine that they just didn't think the disk brakes offered were inadequate.
opposite. I don't think that masses of riders decided the brakes they
used without complaint for decades had suddenly become inadequate.
Only a couple people posting here have admitted that they're stillMore likely because they were what was on the bike back when they
riding rim brakes. But it's not because the rest are all using disks.
It's because the rim brakes are still performing satisfactorily.
bought it and had no issues with them. I imagine that many, perhaps
most bikers pay no attention to ads in bike magazines.. probably
never see them.
BTW, there's been talk here that I ride only pancake flat areas. Last<eyeroll>
week my daughter took me on a new ride route. The handlebar mounted >inclinometer she had given me some years ago was reading over 16% for >stretches.
I admit, it nearly killed me. But my brakes did just fine. In
fact, as usual, I never even thought about them.
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 6:14:35?AM UTC-4, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Anyway, I was interested in those questions. How much braking
deceleration is necessary for this? Under what conditions is a topple
even possible?
The first concrete question is then, of course, whether or when the
resulting force vector is above or below the axis of rotation, being the
front wheels axis.
Unfortunately, I've lost my notes too, but from memory ...
Based on the geometry of my road bike
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg> and my body weight at
the time, I estimated that my front wheel would not slip when braking on
dry and clean asphalt because the rear wheel would lift off first. A
further estimation of the energy necessary to lift the whole mass - its
center of mass, that is - to the max, above the front wheel axis,
followed by a conversion to it's speed equivalent of that mass moving
horizontally resulted in about 12 km/h. In short, riding with less that
12 km/h shouldn't cause a topple. The rear wheel will be lifted, but
after the bike coming to a full stop, it will just come down again, in
reverse direction.
My experience has been somewhat different.
I had an over-the-handlebars event shortly after moving to Germany.
I was riding in our little farm village so certainly not
much speed, just sightseeing and learning the neighborhood,
I think my daughter was following on a scooter of some kind.
The bike was a 70s version Schwinn Super LeTour. Stock
brakes, whatever it came with. I'm 5'10" and was about 175
lb at the time, now 135.
You would not call me an expert or
even a skilled rider, but not totally inexperienced.
A car pulled out in front of me from a side street - on the
right! That's important because under German law he had
automatic right of way.
I grabbed brakes and immediately hit
the pavement. My subject feeling from the moment of touching
brake levers was that my center of mass was directly over
the front axle and I rotated forward and down, bang.
I was
shaken but not stirred, had to sit on the curb for a bit but
didn't need medical attention. The driver was upset that I
had almost damaged his shiny vehicle but I pretended not to
speak any Deutsch, usually a good approach in these
situations.
On a coaster brake I would have been forced to shift my
weight backwards to get enough force,
and probably most of
you have the skill to do that with hand brakes, but I did
not and do not (which is one of the reasons >90% of my
riding is on the trainer.)
On 11/1/2023 5:30 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Until recently bike’s were sold as disk or rim, at the high to mid end, but
The general public is now buying disks because the bike industry is now
selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for road disks.
Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This change was force on
the public.
rim brakes just haven’t sold.
The heart of the question here is: Why? How could rim brakes be
essentially universal on bikes for decades, yet within a span of five
years start not selling? Did people who had ridden avidly for 20+ years suddenly realize "Gosh, I just noticed that my brakes have been terrible
all along" ?
No. The push came from above (the manufacturers) not from below (the
riders).
I suspect the beginning was the introduction of carbon fiber wheels,
whose braking surface was worse than aluminum; but the percentage of non-racing riders on CF wheels is still minuscule, partly because that's
yet another incidence of negligible benefit, unless (or maybe even if)
you're a racer. But for racers using CF wheels, disk brakes were a help.
Now what is it that causes the typical MAMIL to buy what the winning
racers are using?
The answer is _marketing_. That is, after all, why manufacturers support racers. And I believe it's likely that the first step towards road disk popularity was "Oooh, the pros are using disks! I want to be like the
pros! [Except half as fast.]" I believe that inspired component
manufacturers and bike manufacturers to say "Hey, here's our next big
_churn_ opportunity!"
Once that was decided, the rest was easy. Sell the highest end road
bikes only with disks, even though they don't have CF rims. Give a year
or two for potential customers to see "Hmm. All the _best_ bikes have
disks!" That leads to "Only disks are good," followed by "Our entire
line of bikes has disks because they're just better."
The switch is now about complete. If you go into a bike shop go buy an enthusiast level bike, you have to buy disk brakes. But the situation
arose from the top, not from the consumers.
(And BTW, I'm far from the only person making this claim.)
folks who wanted better performance, ie disk brakes and as most folks will >> have if briefly used, disks so will be aware that it could be better, don’t
assume your experience is universal everything suggests it’s not.
Obviously, I think my experience is much more universal than the
opposite. I don't think that masses of riders decided the brakes they
used without complaint for decades had suddenly become inadequate.
Only a couple people posting here have admitted that they're still
riding rim brakes. But it's not because the rest are all using disks.
It's because the rim brakes are still performing satisfactorily.
BTW, there's been talk here that I ride only pancake flat areas. Last
week my daughter took me on a new ride route. The handlebar mounted inclinometer she had given me some years ago was reading over 16% for stretches. I admit, it nearly killed me. But my brakes did just fine. In fact, as usual, I never even thought about them.
On 11/1/2023 5:30 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Until recently bike’s were sold as disk or rim, at the
The general public is now buying disks because the bike
industry is now
selling disks. Again, there was no great public cry for
road disks.
Nobody was complaining about their rim brakes. This
change was force on
the public.
high to mid end, but
rim brakes just haven’t sold.
The heart of the question here is: Why? How could rim brakes
be essentially universal on bikes for decades, yet within a
span of five years start not selling? Did people who had
ridden avidly for 20+ years suddenly realize "Gosh, I just
noticed that my brakes have been terrible all along" ?
No. The push came from above (the manufacturers) not from
below (the riders).
I suspect the beginning was the introduction of carbon fiber
wheels, whose braking surface was worse than aluminum; but
the percentage of non-racing riders on CF wheels is still
minuscule, partly because that's yet another incidence of
negligible benefit, unless (or maybe even if) you're a
racer. But for racers using CF wheels, disk brakes were a help.
Now what is it that causes the typical MAMIL to buy what the
winning racers are using?
The answer is _marketing_. That is, after all, why
manufacturers support racers. And I believe it's likely that
the first step towards road disk popularity was "Oooh, the
pros are using disks! I want to be like the pros! [Except
half as fast.]" I believe that inspired component
manufacturers and bike manufacturers to say "Hey, here's our
next big _churn_ opportunity!"
Once that was decided, the rest was easy. Sell the highest
end road bikes only with disks, even though they don't have
CF rims. Give a year or two for potential customers to see
"Hmm. All the _best_ bikes have disks!" That leads to "Only
disks are good," followed by "Our entire line of bikes has
disks because they're just better."
The switch is now about complete. If you go into a bike shop
go buy an enthusiast level bike, you have to buy disk
brakes. But the situation arose from the top, not from the
consumers.
(And BTW, I'm far from the only person making this claim.)
folks who wanted better performance, ie disk brakes and as
most folks will
have if briefly used, disks so will be aware that it could
be better, don’t
assume your experience is universal everything suggests
it’s not.
Obviously, I think my experience is much more universal than
the opposite. I don't think that masses of riders decided
the brakes they used without complaint for decades had
suddenly become inadequate.
Only a couple people posting here have admitted that they're
still riding rim brakes. But it's not because the rest are
all using disks. It's because the rim brakes are still
performing satisfactorily.
BTW, there's been talk here that I ride only pancake flat
areas. Last week my daughter took me on a new ride route.
The handlebar mounted inclinometer she had given me some
years ago was reading over 16% for stretches. I admit, it
nearly killed me. But my brakes did just fine. In fact, as
usual, I never even thought about them.
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59 PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
On 11/1/2023 12:55 PM, Catrike Rider exercised HUGE self-control to wait
22 minutes before haranguing me!
:-)
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59 PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
For you.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On 11/1/2023 11:45 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
When was the last time you wore a brake cable out? I suppose it is
possible but I certainly can't remember any recently.
I've broken brake cables exactly twice in 50+ years of adult riding. I suppose I should replace them every five years or so, but I don't.
I should mention, neither broken cable led to much difficulty, let alone
a crash. I'd say that's an indication of how lightly brakes are
typically used. Panic stops are (or should be) extremely rare.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 7:53:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 9:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:Everything needs maintenance. And everything has some
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For trips to the
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, until those pesky >>>>>> marketeers got involved.
The status quo when you were young is not any more "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks were acceptable. >>>>>>
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your bikes, am I not? Or >>>>>>> do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be available until well after >>>>>> both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
grocery store or the library I take my utility bike with rim brakes
although hydraulic for less maintenance.
Lou
(usually small) measurable failure rate. Rim and disc
systems are different in particulars but not in principle.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
They have since changed the material in the disc brake pads but
originally it wore very rapidly. And now that they've made the pads
metallic based - the discs wear.
Am Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:27:33 +0100 schrieb Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>:
Am 29.10.2023 um 17:11 schrieb Frank Krygowski:...
On 10/29/2023 8:16 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such, but I have a >>> strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work, including using
inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She always
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring. Only with the >>> new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even downhill.
That's interesting. I don't think of my wife as being extremely strong, >> but I recall only two complaints from her about braking. One was the
only time I took her down a certain long and super-steep local hill,
something over 10% I'm sure. We crept down at low speed. She then said
something about the braking causing her back to be sore. I never
completely understood, but I made sure to avoid that hill with her.
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on her touring >> bike. She said the new levers were too far a reach for her hands. So I
bent the levers to bring them closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if >> that would be possible with hydraulic levers?)
Most modern brake levers can be adjusted in their reach, so that both >long-handed and small-handed people can set up the bike in a was that >feels good.
I specifically built our bikes using the "Force" variant of the SRAM
brakes for getting that feature.
<https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/ed-frc-d1>
"Personalize for your hands and preferences using the Contact Point Adjustment and separate Reach Adjust"
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pluspora/plainpostings/20230619t2154-2023_06_19_effelsberg_again.html>
--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen
Am 29.10.2023 um 17:11 schrieb Frank Krygowski:...
On 10/29/2023 8:16 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such, but I have a
strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work, including using
inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She always
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring. Only with the
new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even downhill.
That's interesting. I don't think of my wife as being extremely strong,
but I recall only two complaints from her about braking. One was the
only time I took her down a certain long and super-steep local hill,
something over 10% I'm sure. We crept down at low speed. She then said
something about the braking causing her back to be sore. I never
completely understood, but I made sure to avoid that hill with her.
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on her touring
bike. She said the new levers were too far a reach for her hands. So I
bent the levers to bring them closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if
that would be possible with hydraulic levers?)
Most modern brake levers can be adjusted in their reach, so that both >long-handed and small-handed people can set up the bike in a was that
feels good.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 1:22:07 PM UTC-7, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:27:33 +0100 schrieb Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>:
Am 29.10.2023 um 17:11 schrieb Frank Krygowski:...
On 10/29/2023 8:16 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such, but I have a >>> strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work, including using >>> inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She alwaysThat's interesting. I don't think of my wife as being extremely strong, >> but I recall only two complaints from her about braking. One was the
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring. Only with the >>> new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even downhill. >>
only time I took her down a certain long and super-steep local hill,
something over 10% I'm sure. We crept down at low speed. She then said >> something about the braking causing her back to be sore. I never
completely understood, but I made sure to avoid that hill with her.
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on her touring >> bike. She said the new levers were too far a reach for her hands. So I >> bent the levers to bring them closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if
that would be possible with hydraulic levers?)
Most modern brake levers can be adjusted in their reach, so that both >long-handed and small-handed people can set up the bike in a was that >feels good.
I specifically built our bikes using the "Force" variant of the SRAM brakes for getting that feature.
<https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/ed-frc-d1>
"Personalize for your hands and preferences using the Contact Point Adjustment and separate Reach Adjust"
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pluspora/plainpostings/20230619t2154-2023_06_19_effelsberg_again.html>
--While I was looking at the Shimano version of this adjustability it appeared to me that if you set it for small hands there wasn't enough "pull" to apply the brakes properly.
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and
fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that
promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that
surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom
bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went
away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them. >>>
exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media
personalities ie Froome it’s note made it into mainstream see also
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people
face these problems themselves.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 9:47:34 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 1:22:07 PM UTC-7, Wolfgang Strobl wrote: >>> Am Mon, 30 Oct 2023 14:27:33 +0100 schrieb Rolf Mantel
<ne...@hartig-mantel.de>:While I was looking at the Shimano version of this adjustability it
Am 29.10.2023 um 17:11 schrieb Frank Krygowski:...
On 10/29/2023 8:16 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Another aspect. I don't do resistance training and such, but I have a >>>>>> strong enough grip from decades of DIY manual work, including using >>>>>> inferior brakes on bikes while commuting. Not my wife. She alwaysThat's interesting. I don't think of my wife as being extremely strong, >>>>> but I recall only two complaints from her about braking. One was the >>>>> only time I took her down a certain long and super-steep local hill, >>>>> something over 10% I'm sure. We crept down at low speed. She then said >>>>> something about the braking causing her back to be sore. I never
complained about the brakes on her bikes, when touring. Only with the >>>>>> new bikes with disc brakes did she dare to go faster, even downhill. >>>>>
completely understood, but I made sure to avoid that hill with her.
Her other complaint was when I replaced the brake levers on her touring >>>>> bike. She said the new levers were too far a reach for her hands. So I >>>>> bent the levers to bring them closer to her handlebar. (Hmm. I wonder if >>>>> that would be possible with hydraulic levers?)
Most modern brake levers can be adjusted in their reach, so that both
long-handed and small-handed people can set up the bike in a was that
feels good.
I specifically built our bikes using the "Force" variant of the SRAM
brakes for getting that feature.
<https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/ed-frc-d1>
"Personalize for your hands and preferences using the Contact Point
Adjustment and separate Reach Adjust"
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pluspora/plainpostings/20230619t2154-2023_06_19_effelsberg_again.html>
--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen
appeared to me that if you set it for small hands there wasn't enough
"pull" to apply the brakes properly.
Shimano GRX hydraulics have the same features although reach is less important with hydraulics and gravel riding. On the hoods is the
preferred position (for me).
Lou
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people face these problems themselves.
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >> personalities ie Froome it’s note made it into mainstream see also
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that
promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that
surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom
bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went
away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
You have misunderstood, it’s another technology that struggles to prove any
claims, so no I’ve not used it’s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 18:08:07 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 04:48:33 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 22:14:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski >>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/31/2023 9:18 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:46:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>>
On 10/31/2023 11:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
And (sorry to repeat the question, but) what type of brakes
are on your bicycle now? Don't be ashamed. Tell us!
Some odd geomagnetic effect prevents the disc brake
marketing juju from penetrating Mr Slocumb's brain in Thailand.
(:-) Mostly because I haven't bought a new bike in more then 10, maybe >>>>> 15 years, I can't even remember how long ago I bought one. After all >>>>> the two I have here in the "retirement house" still work perfectly.
(:-)
Brakes and all, apparently! Thank you for admitting that!
As for Franks assertion of having to select a brake to build a bike
frame. Nope. I built the frame and then found a brake that would work >>>>> with the existing holes in the fork crown and seat stay brace.
That's very, very odd. Were I to build a bike from tubing, I'd be >>>>working out the dimensions in detail, not putting holes in random places >>>>then scrounging for old parts that might fit!
(One of the Professional Engineers I hired repeatedly to teach our upper >>>>level classes used to build beautiful custom frames. I remember him >>>>doing "workshop" lectures about the process at a bike rally I attended, >>>>long before I hired him for teaching. In those pre-CAD days, he drew >>>>detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant detail.) >>>>
Unless, of course, you interpret "select" as fishing used brakes out >>>>> of the drawer and holding them up to the frame to see if they would
fit.
I'd say that's a distinction without a difference. My point is you did >>>>not say, when building the bike, "I'm going to make sure I can fit disk >>>>brakes on this frame, because rim brakes are inadequate." Instead, you >>>>never even thought much about the brakes. You felt that any old rim >>>>brake would suffice.
Which is even a step beyond what I've been saying. Again, thank you.
Well, no, what you've been saying is that people who prefer disk
brakes are wrong. That's very different from saying "any old rim brake >>>would suffice."
Frank certainly knows how to play the part of an idiot. When you buy
fork crown come from the manufacturer with a hole in it, obviously for
the brake. See >>https://www.framebuilding.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/NEWIMAGES/Cast%20F4.gif
And the rear end is the same, see >>https://www.framebuilding.com/Graphicpages/014_BRIDGES2003.gif
As for his Professor chap, of course you draw a full scale layout of
your tubing, fork offset and all the other importunate dimensions, but
a "detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant >>detail" is hard to believe... if the chap was compensate.
Does a machinist draw a full size drawing of every part he makes?
Accurate to the last 1/1000 of an inch?
Nope, I think foolish Frank is telling stories again.
Imaginary people can do wonderful things...
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
LouWhich really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or
they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need
changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55 PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
LouWhich really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or
they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.First the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after it went under the bar tape.
Lou
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:You have misunderstood, it’s another technology that struggles to prove any >claims, so no I’ve not used it’s really not my thing anyway.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and
fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that
promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that
surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom
bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went
away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them. >>>>
personalities ie Froome it’s note made it into mainstream see also
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large
contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for
them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people
face these problems themselves.
Roger Merriman
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 13:22:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:55 PM, Catrike Rider exercised HUGE self-control to wait
22 minutes before haranguing me!
:-)
You really don't have to be afraid of me, Frank.
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
No the Pros lacked behind being more conservative, disks hit mainstream and where being sold and used, from 2012 the uci only cleared them for use by 2018.
Now what is it that causes the typical MAMIL to buy what the winning
racers are using?
The answer is _marketing_. That is, after all, why manufacturers support
racers. And I believe it's likely that the first step towards road disk
popularity was "Oooh, the pros are using disks! I want to be like the
pros! [Except half as fast.]" I believe that inspired component
manufacturers and bike manufacturers to say "Hey, here's our next big
_churn_ opportunity!"
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pluspora/plainpostings/20230619t2154-2023_06_19_effelsberg_again.html>
When you buy
fork crown come from the manufacturer with a hole in it, obviously for
the brake. See
https://www.framebuilding.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/NEWIMAGES/Cast%20F4.gif
And the rear end is the same, see
https://www.framebuilding.com/Graphicpages/014_BRIDGES2003.gif
As for his Professor chap, of course you draw a full scale layout of
your tubing, fork offset and all the other importunate dimensions, but
a "detailed full scale drawings of each frame showing every relevant
detail" is hard to believe... if the chap was compensate.
Does a machinist draw a full size drawing of every part he makes?
Accurate to the last 1/1000 of an inch?
Nope, I think foolish Frank is telling stories again.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 13:22:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:55 PM, Catrike Rider exercised HUGE self-control to wait
22 minutes before haranguing me!
:-)
You really don't have to be afraid of me, Frank. I have no intention
of hurting you. I simply want to make other people aware of why you
attack and berate them for not doing exactly what you do.
Persons who display either narcissistic personality disorder or the >narcissistic personality type are preoccupied with maintaining
excessively positive self-concepts. They become overly concerned with >obtaining positive, aggrandizing feedback from others and react with
extreme positive or negative emotions when they succeed or fail to
receive confirmation that others hold them in high regard. Narcissists
want positive feedback about themsleves, and they actively manipulate
others to solicit or coerce admiration from them. Accordingly,
narcissism is thought to reflect a form of chronic interpersonal
self-esteem regulation.
https://www.britannica.com/science/narcissism
On 11/1/2023 1:45 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 13:22:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:55 PM, Catrike Rider exercised HUGE self-control to wait >>> 22 minutes before haranguing me!
:-)
You really don't have to be afraid of me, Frank.
HA HA HA HA HA! :-)
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55?PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:Which really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or
they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need
changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.
First the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after it went under the bar tape.
Lou
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 13:45:34 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 13:22:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:55 PM, Catrike Rider exercised HUGE self-control to wait >>>22 minutes before haranguing me!
:-)
You really don't have to be afraid of me, Frank. I have no intention
of hurting you. I simply want to make other people aware of why you
attack and berate them for not doing exactly what you do.
Persons who display either narcissistic personality disorder or the >>narcissistic personality type are preoccupied with maintaining
excessively positive self-concepts. They become overly concerned with >>obtaining positive, aggrandizing feedback from others and react with >>extreme positive or negative emotions when they succeed or fail to
receive confirmation that others hold them in high regard. Narcissists
want positive feedback about themsleves, and they actively manipulate >>others to solicit or coerce admiration from them. Accordingly,
narcissism is thought to reflect a form of chronic interpersonal >>self-esteem regulation.
https://www.britannica.com/science/narcissism
Frank is rather reminiscent of the Palestinians. First they attack and
when rebutted they whine about it.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:26:07 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55 PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanFirst the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after it went under the bar tape.
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:Which really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or
they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need
changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Lou
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
Which really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or
they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need
changing.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 15:26:05 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55?PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:Which really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or
they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need
changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.
First the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after it went under the bar tape.
Lou
I'm not too sure about all this degradation of the cables. At least
one of my bikes I bought as junk and rebuilt like new, perhaps, 10 or
15 years ago ( really don't remember) and the cables are the original
cables I installed at that time, with no maintenance since..
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not increase in
frictional drag to any detectable level. The spring tension on the
derailleurs is 99% higher.
You would be very much surprised at the degradation of your average
service bike's cables in any bike shop.
On 11/1/2023 1:14 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
No the Pros lacked behind being more conservative, disks hit mainstream and >> where being sold and used, from 2012 the uci only cleared them for use by
Now what is it that causes the typical MAMIL to buy what the winning
racers are using?
The answer is _marketing_. That is, after all, why manufacturers support >>> racers. And I believe it's likely that the first step towards road disk
popularity was "Oooh, the pros are using disks! I want to be like the
pros! [Except half as fast.]" I believe that inspired component
manufacturers and bike manufacturers to say "Hey, here's our next big
_churn_ opportunity!"
2018.
Disks may have hit the mainstream, but they didn't become the default (mandated) choice until recently. That happened after, not before, they
were used in the big pro races.
And isn't it telling that the pro racers generally resisted disks? The
people doing the riskiest road riding, braking hard for corners and descending mountain roads at extreme speeds in all weather preferred rim brakes.
I think the biggest factor in pros finally accepting disks was that they
were told to do so. Sponsorship can be powerful. And it's part of
marketing.
On 11/1/2023 6:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 15:26:05 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55?PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:Which really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or
they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need
changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.
First the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after it went under the bar tape.
Lou
I'm not too sure about all this degradation of the cables. At least
one of my bikes I bought as junk and rebuilt like new, perhaps, 10 or
15 years ago ( really don't remember) and the cables are the original
cables I installed at that time, with no maintenance since..
You know something about machinery which makes you atypical.
Try a poorly assembled BSO, ride it twice a year and leave
it lying in the weeds behind the barn mostly. Those
customers carp the most about a new $5 brake cable.
On 11/1/2023 8:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not increase in
frictional drag to any detectable level. The spring tension on the
derailleurs is 99% higher.
You would be very much surprised at the degradation of your average
service bike's cables in any bike shop.
Just out of honest curiosity: Can you describe the distribution of bikes
on which your shop does maintenance? What percentage are BSOs, what percentage are older "good" bikes, what percentage are new sporty CF,
what percentage are mountain bikes, etc.? Your photos show a lot of high
end classics, but your description indicates a fair amount of junk.
Related to that: On one tour (across Pennsylvania, east to west) my kid
and I stayed overnight with an art professor and his wife. He said he
had always wanting to work in a bike shop, so one year he took the
summer off teaching and did that. He was terrifically disappointed. He expected to be working on fine machines, but instead dealt with abused
BSOs.
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, itÂ’s another technology that struggles to prove any >> claims, so no IÂ’ve not used itÂ’s really not my thing anyway.
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They areOn 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>> personalities ie Froome itÂ’s note made it into mainstream see also
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesnÂ’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>>>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>>>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that
promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>>>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them. >>>>>
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large
contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people
face these problems themselves.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank
arm is horizontal.
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any >>> claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very largeOn 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>>>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>>> personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>>>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>>>>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>>>>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>>>>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>> face these problems themselves.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank
arm is horizontal.
I guess that’s the theory but doesn’t seem to work, namely that folks don’t >pedal in the way theorised also linked to folks don’t pull up with any >meaningful effect.
Roger Merriman
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it’s another technology that struggles to prove any >>claims, so no I’ve not used it’s really not my thing anyway.
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They areOn 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>> personalities ie Froome it’s note made it into mainstream see also
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra
lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>>>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>>>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that
promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>>>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them. >>>>>
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large
contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people
face these problems themselves.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank
arm is horizontal.
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 05:45:25 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, itÂ’s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very largeOn 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>>>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>>> personalities ie Froome itÂ’s note made it into mainstream see also
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>>>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesnÂ’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>>>>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>>>>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>>>>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>> face these problems themselves.
claims, so no IÂ’ve not used itÂ’s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank
arm is horizontal.
I have considered them, but they would have to installed 90 degrees
back so the maximum force is applied when the cranks are vertical.
I know that a couple of top rated pros have used them.
Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins both opted for elliptical chainrings
during their Tour de France victories – so they’re hardly seen as a
wacky bit of kit for the cycling eccentric these days! https://biketips.com/oval-chainring/
Someday I might bit the bullet and buy one.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:26:07 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55 PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more
"normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
LouWhich really says something about the individual cyclist. Either he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.First the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after it went under the bar tape.
LouGood quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:25:39 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large >>>>> contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>>>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>>> face these problems themselves.On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>>>>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>>>> personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also >>>>>> oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they >>>>>>> apparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as >>>>>>> dramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted
became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes?
U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to >>>>>> conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank
arm is horizontal.
I guess thatÂ’s the theory but doesnÂ’t seem to work, namely that folks donÂ’t
pedal in the way theorised also linked to folks donÂ’t pull up with any
meaningful effect.
Roger Merriman
No, It must have "worked". Anyone can prove it themselves and in fact mechanics tool boxes usually contain a multitude of tools that depend
on an extended lever arm to apply a greater force.
I think the reason it didn't become popular was that the difference in diameter, from the center of the "gear" to the outer edge was probably negligible, in terms of pedaling effort.
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 05:45:25 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>Rather was seen as wacky, they where the outliers even for team sky where
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large >>>>> contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>>>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>>> face these problems themselves.On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>>>>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>>>> personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also >>>>>> oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they >>>>>>> apparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as >>>>>>> dramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted
became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes?
U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to >>>>>> conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank
arm is horizontal.
I have considered them, but they would have to installed 90 degrees
back so the maximum force is applied when the cranks are vertical.
I know that a couple of top rated pros have used them.
Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins both opted for elliptical chainrings
during their Tour de France victories ? so they?re hardly seen as a
wacky bit of kit for the cycling eccentric these days!
https://biketips.com/oval-chainring/
the only riders riding oval.
I suspect this might be down to feel.
Someday I might bit the bullet and buy one.
Roger Merriman
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 11:50:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 05:45:25 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>Rather was seen as wacky, they where the outliers even for team sky where
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large >>>>>> contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>>>>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>>>> face these problems themselves.On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they >>>>>>>> apparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as >>>>>>>> dramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted
became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the >>>>>>>> advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes?
U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>>>>> personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also >>>>>>> oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to >>>>>>> conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank >>>> arm is horizontal.
I have considered them, but they would have to installed 90 degrees
back so the maximum force is applied when the cranks are vertical.
I know that a couple of top rated pros have used them.
Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins both opted for elliptical chainrings
during their Tour de France victories ? so they?re hardly seen as a
wacky bit of kit for the cycling eccentric these days!
https://biketips.com/oval-chainring/
the only riders riding oval.
I ride a Catrike. I'm already kind of whacky.
I suspect this might be down to feel.
Someday I might bit the bullet and buy one.
Roger Merriman
My experience has been somewhat different.
I had an over-the-handlebars event shortly after moving to Germany.
I was riding in our little farm village so certainly not
much speed, just sightseeing and learning the neighborhood,
I think my daughter was following on a scooter of some kind.
The bike was a 70s version Schwinn Super LeTour. Stock
brakes, whatever it came with. I'm 5'10" and was about 175
lb at the time, now 135.
That's 1.78 m and 79 kg in metric units. BMI 24.9, almost overweight,
but not quite. :-) 135 lbs resp. 61 kg is on the other end of the
spectrum.
I grabbed brakes and immediately hit
the pavement. My subject feeling from the moment of touching
brake levers was that my center of mass was directly over
the front axle and I rotated forward and down, bang.
Improbable, for two reasons.
- because accelerating and lifting a mass of that size needs a lot of
energy and takes time.
- because a rider of your former weight on a biycle as described
probably has a geometry that just does not allow a stunt like that.
Either your front wheel slipped or your pitchover was caused by loosing
your grip on the handlebar. Or perhaps both in succession.
Jobst Brandt's position on this issue has been mentioned at least twice recently, once also by me. Therefore, I simply quote the text inline
this time.
| Subject: Going Over the Bars
| From: Jobst Brandt
| Date: September 5, 1997
|
| Many bicyclists fear using the front brake because they
| believe it, in contrast to the rear brake, might cause the
| bicycle to overturn. What is not apparent, is that
| overturning a bicycle with the front brake is much harder
| than it seems, and that braking itself, is not the cause of
| most pitchovers.
|
| The primary cause of bicycle pitchover, is that the bicycle
| stops and the rider does not, after which the bicycle
| overturns when the rider's thighs strike the handlebars.
| Overturning can be simulated by walking next to the bicycle,
| both hands on the bars, and applying the front brake to
| raise the rear wheel. This experiment should make apparent
| how small a force will overturn the bicycle when it stops
| and the rider does not.
|
| Beginners overturn when they use the front brake because
| they are not aware that, unless they brace with their arms,
| only the friction on the saddle prevents the bicycle from
| stopping without them. However, even riders who don't make
| this mistake can pitchover from a front-wheel jam that
| leaves no time to react. A stopped rear wheel usually does
| not cause pitchover, because even if the rider moves
| forward, unloading the rear wheel effectively releases the
| brake.
|
| Typically, front wheel jams occur from a stick in the
| spokes, a fender jamming into the fork crown, a front
| cantilever straddle cable falling onto a knobby tread, or a
| retaining bolt of a caliper brake releasing from the fork
| crown. These are unanticipated events for which a rider
| cannot brace if not already doing so. However, on clean
| pavement, a front wheel jam will overturn the bicycle
| regardless of rider reaction.
|
| That bicycles do not easily overturn by braking becomes
| apparent by attempting to raise the rear wheel, preferably
| at modest speed and while bracing with the arms. The front
| brake, the principal stopping and speed control device on
| motorcycles and cars, is especially important for bicycles,
| whose short wheelbase causes even more weight to transfer to
| the front wheel while braking, thereby making the rear brake
| less effective. Therefore, the front brake should be
| understood and used properly rather than being maligned as
| it is.
|
On 11/1/2023 2:16 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
But I imagine you can say the same about most bike components. Your
repair clientele is not a representative sample of all cyclists. It
consists of those whose bikes are not working right, and who lack the >mechanical skill to fix things.
I mentioned volunteering to fix bikes at bike rodeos. Yes, brakes were
among the things needing attention. So were loose saddles, loose
handlebars, near-flat tires, bearings badly out of adjustment and more.
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 11:50:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 05:45:25 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>Rather was seen as wacky, they where the outliers even for team sky where >>> the only riders riding oval.
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>>>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large >>>>>>> contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this forOn 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of >>>>>>>>>>> features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they >>>>>>>>> apparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as >>>>>>>>> dramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted
became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the >>>>>>>>> advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes?
U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media
personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also >>>>>>>> oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to >>>>>>>> conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>>>>> face these problems themselves.
claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank >>>>> arm is horizontal.
I have considered them, but they would have to installed 90 degrees
back so the maximum force is applied when the cranks are vertical.
I know that a couple of top rated pros have used them.
Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins both opted for elliptical chainrings
during their Tour de France victories ? so they?re hardly seen as a
wacky bit of kit for the cycling eccentric these days!
https://biketips.com/oval-chainring/
I ride a Catrike. I'm already kind of whacky.
whacky races?
I suspect this might be down to feel.
Someday I might bit the bullet and buy one.
Roger Merriman
Roger Merriman
On 11/1/2023 8:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not
increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The
spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
You would be very much surprised at the degradation of
your average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
Just out of honest curiosity: Can you describe the
distribution of bikes on which your shop does maintenance?
What percentage are BSOs, what percentage are older "good"
bikes, what percentage are new sporty CF, what percentage
are mountain bikes, etc.? Your photos show a lot of high end
classics, but your description indicates a fair amount of junk.
Related to that: On one tour (across Pennsylvania, east to
west) my kid and I stayed overnight with an art professor
and his wife. He said he had always wanting to work in a
bike shop, so one year he took the summer off teaching and
did that. He was terrifically disappointed. He expected to
be working on fine machines, but instead dealt with abused
BSOs.
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, itÂ’s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very largeOn 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>>>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>>> personalities ie Froome itÂ’s note made it into mainstream see also
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:apparently
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using >>>>>>> ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite asdramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesnÂ’t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted >>>>>> became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold >>>>>> well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes? >>>>>> U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to
conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>> face these problems themselves.
claims, so no IÂ’ve not used itÂ’s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank
arm is horizontal.
I guess that’s the theory but doesn’t seem to work, namely that folks don’t
pedal in the way theorised also linked to folks don’t pull up with any meaningful effect.
Roger Merriman
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:25:39 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large >>>>> contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>>>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>>> face these problems themselves.On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still >>>>>> exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>>>> personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also >>>>>> oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they >>>>>>> apparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as >>>>>>> dramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted
became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the
advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes?
U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to >>>>>> conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank
arm is horizontal.
I guess that’s the theory but doesn’t seem to work, namely that folks don’t
pedal in the way theorised also linked to folks don’t pull up with any
meaningful effect.
Roger Merriman
No, It must have "worked". Anyone can prove it themselves and in fact mechanics tool boxes usually contain a multitude of tools that depend
on an extended lever arm to apply a greater force.
I think the reason it didn't become popular was that the difference in diameter, from the center of the "gear" to the outer edge was probably negligible, in terms of pedaling effort.
On 11/1/2023 4:20 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pluspora/plainpostings/20230619t2154-2023_06_19_effelsberg_again.html>
I always like your scenery photos.
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:59:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>>> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>>>>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race >>>>>>> without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill. >>>>>>>
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which, >>>>>> I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington >>>>>> road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on >>>>>> your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend.
While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to >>>> be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay
for this. So don?t want bikes.
Can?t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a >>>> choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation,
drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike
crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's
lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply
forbid bicycles.
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so >> on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Roger Merriman
Well, they do have restrictions for cars to drive up the mountain and
even some cars are banned. See https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.%3E
As I was a small boy the only time we ever drove up the mountain, so I
don't know all the "ins and outs", but I would comment that New
Englanders, in general, tend to be pretty rational people and most
"You can't do that" rules are the result of someone doing it with
disastrous results... There was lake about 5 miles from town and there
was a law - "You are forbidden to drive your car on the lake", which
does sound rather strange, but it was because people had driven their
cars onto the lake after it "iced up" and broke through the ice and
drowned.
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:26:07 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:You would be very much surprised at the degradation of your
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55 PM UTC+1, John B. wrote:Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanFirst the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after it went under the bar tape.
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:Which really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, FrankWhat sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more >>>>>>>>>>>>> "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks
were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less
maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or
they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need
changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Lou
average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 5:53:31 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:26:07 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote: >>>> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55 PM UTC+1, John B. wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanYou would be very much surprised at the degradation of your
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not increase in<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:First the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:Which really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, Frank >>>>>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For >>>>>>>>>>> trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before
manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed,
until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your
bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense.
--
- Frank Krygowski
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less >>>>>>>>>>> maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance,
not much but still.
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers
squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago,
I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’
clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake
cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or >>>>> they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need
changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.
get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized
how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after
it went under the bar tape.
Lou
frictional drag to any detectable level. The spring tension on the
derailleurs is 99% higher.
average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
I see that Lou has the same experience. So I will assume that in the
weather conditions that you and he ride that the Teflon liners actually
wear. This has not been my experience but the bay area is known for
moderate weather conditions.
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 5:53:31 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:26:07 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote: >>>> On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 11:17:55 PM UTC+1, John B. wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:16:07 -0700 (PDT), Lou HoltmanYou would be very much surprised at the degradation of your
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not increase in<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:First the degradation of the cable friction is gradually and people >>>> get used to it forgetting what it could be and you will be surprized >>>> how reluctant people got to change the brake cable and housing after >>>> it went under the bar tape.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 6:28:40?PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/1/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:Which really says something about the individual cyclist. Either
On 11/1/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:For you.
On Wednesday, November 1, 2023 at 3:42:59?PM UTC+1, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 3:13:06?PM UTC-7, LouI am talking about Magura hydraulic RIM brakes. They have >>>>>>>>> no maintenance. Normal rim brakes need cable maintenance, >>>>>>>>> not much but still.
Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:01:50?PM UTC+1, Frank >>>>>>>>>>> Krygowski wrote:What sort of maintenance does rim brakes have that
On 10/31/2023 1:54 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:I also still use rim brakes but not on all my bikes. For >>>>>>>>>>> trips to the grocery store or the library I take my
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
On 10/30/2023 2:00 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
The status quo when you were young is not any more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "normal"
than that of any other time.
I'm defending the status quo of, oh, 2010, before >>>>>>>>>>>>>> manufacturers
decided to churn the market by claiming only disks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were acceptable.
Once rod brakes were all any normal person needed, >>>>>>>>>>>>> until those pesky
marketeers got involved.
I think I'm also defending the status quo of your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bikes, am I not? Or
do all your bikes use disk brakes?
Old bikes with rim brakes will continue to be
available until well after
both of us are gone. They do not require a defense. >>>>>>>>>>>> But you do continue to use rim brakes, right?
--
- Frank Krygowski
utility bike with rim brakes although hydraulic for less >>>>>>>>>>> maintenance.
Lou
hydraulic disc's don't have in spades?
I'd say cable operated rim brakes need negligible
maintenance, almost zero. My touring bike's rear cantilevers >>>>>>>> squeaked a bit on a recent ride so I added a bit more
toe-in. And after a dog knocked me down around a month ago, >>>>>>>> I had to re-center my front brakes when replacing that
fender. Otherwise I rarely touch the mechanisms.
My day is often chock full of rusted cables, frayed cables,
kinked casing, heads pulled off brake wires (XMart BSOs) and
front brake with cable both ruined from spinning the fork
around a few times. None of those things are rare or unusal
in the bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
As a birthday present I often offer technical ‘handicapped’ >>>>>> clubmembers to service their bike. Without exception the brake
cables and housing needed replacement badly.
Lou
he/she/it is so clumsy that they can't change cables and housings or >>>>> they are lack sufficient knowledge to realize that the cables need >>>>> changing.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Lou
frictional drag to any detectable level. The spring tension on the
derailleurs is 99% higher.
average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
I see that Lou has the same experience. So I will assume that in the weather conditions that you and he ride that the Teflon liners actually wear. This has not been my experience but the bay area is known for moderate weather conditions.
My commute bikes gear cable is a year old and realistically is a bit
shagged when the chain/cassette which are also close get replaced cable
will as well.
The Gravel and MTB last a bit longer, the MTB is better sealed mainly due
to running full outer rather than internal, but gets used in vile
conditions but both last maybe 2/3 years.
Roger Merriman
Am 01.11.2023 um 02:53 schrieb John B.:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:59:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>>>>>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race >>>>>>>> without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill. >>>>>>>>
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which, >>>>>>> I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington >>>>>>> road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on >>>>>>> your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend. >>>>>
be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay
for this. So don?t want bikes.
Can?t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a >>>>> choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation,
drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike
crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's
lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply
forbid bicycles.
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so >>> on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Roger Merriman
Well, they do have restrictions for cars to drive up the mountain and
even some cars are banned. See
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.%3E
As I was a small boy the only time we ever drove up the mountain, so I
don't know all the "ins and outs", but I would comment that New
Englanders, in general, tend to be pretty rational people and most
"You can't do that" rules are the result of someone doing it with
disastrous results... There was lake about 5 miles from town and there
was a law - "You are forbidden to drive your car on the lake", which
does sound rather strange, but it was because people had driven their
cars onto the lake after it "iced up" and broke through the ice and
drowned.
This does not sound like a meaningful wording of the law. The
Minnesotan version would be 'you must validate that the ice is thick
enough before you drive your car onto the lake' (normally that's fine
from December to end of February).
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:25:39 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>The theory was it would smooth the pedal stroke and so on, but when tests >have been done to the best of my knowledge no power increase or calories >burned etc. lots of articles with claims but they can’t back them up, ie
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large >>>>>> contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for >>>>>> them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>>>> face these problems themselves.On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of
features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they >>>>>>>> apparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as >>>>>>>> dramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have >>>>>>>>> fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted
became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the >>>>>>>> advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories? >>>>>>>> How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes?
U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media >>>>>>> personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also >>>>>>> oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to >>>>>>> conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank >>>> arm is horizontal.
I guess that?s the theory but doesn?t seem to work, namely that folks don?t >>> pedal in the way theorised also linked to folks don?t pull up with any
meaningful effect.
Roger Merriman
No, It must have "worked". Anyone can prove it themselves and in fact
mechanics tool boxes usually contain a multitude of tools that depend
on an extended lever arm to apply a greater force.
I think the reason it didn't become popular was that the difference in
diameter, from the center of the "gear" to the outer edge was probably
negligible, in terms of pedaling effort.
it’s proof by assertion.
In terms of leverage is some stuff about crank lengths at moment on various >cycling channels and similar.
Roger Merriman
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:29:49 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:
Am 01.11.2023 um 02:53 schrieb John B.:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:59:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>>>>>>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race >>>>>>>>> without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill. >>>>>>>>>
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which, >>>>>>>> I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington >>>>>>>> road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on >>>>>>>> your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend. >>>>>>
be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay
for this. So don?t want bikes.
Can?t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a >>>>>> choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation, >>>>> drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike
crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's
lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply
forbid bicycles.
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so
on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Roger Merriman
Well, they do have restrictions for cars to drive up the mountain and
even some cars are banned. See
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.%3E
As I was a small boy the only time we ever drove up the mountain, so I
don't know all the "ins and outs", but I would comment that New
Englanders, in general, tend to be pretty rational people and most
"You can't do that" rules are the result of someone doing it with
disastrous results... There was lake about 5 miles from town and there
was a law - "You are forbidden to drive your car on the lake", which
does sound rather strange, but it was because people had driven their
cars onto the lake after it "iced up" and broke through the ice and
drowned.
This does not sound like a meaningful wording of the law. The
Minnesotan version would be 'you must validate that the ice is thick
enough before you drive your car onto the lake' (normally that's fine
from December to end of February).
And how does one " validate that the ice is thick enough"? After all,
there people skating on it, sailing on it. fishing through holes in
it.
Am 02.11.2023 um 23:47 schrieb John B.:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:29:49 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:
Am 01.11.2023 um 02:53 schrieb John B.:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:59:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>>> wrote:the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend. >>>>>>>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race >>>>>>>>>> without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill. >>>>>>>>>>
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington >>>>>>>>> road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on >>>>>>>>> your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-) >>>>>>>>
be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay
for this. So don?t want bikes.
Can?t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a >>>>>>> choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation, >>>>>> drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike
crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's >>>>>> lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply >>>>>> forbid bicycles.
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so
on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Roger Merriman
Well, they do have restrictions for cars to drive up the mountain and
even some cars are banned. See
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.%3E
As I was a small boy the only time we ever drove up the mountain, so I >>>> don't know all the "ins and outs", but I would comment that New
Englanders, in general, tend to be pretty rational people and most
"You can't do that" rules are the result of someone doing it with
disastrous results... There was lake about 5 miles from town and there >>>> was a law - "You are forbidden to drive your car on the lake", which
does sound rather strange, but it was because people had driven their
cars onto the lake after it "iced up" and broke through the ice and
drowned.
This does not sound like a meaningful wording of the law. The
Minnesotan version would be 'you must validate that the ice is thick
enough before you drive your car onto the lake' (normally that's fine
from December to end of February).
And how does one " validate that the ice is thick enough"? After all,
there people skating on it, sailing on it. fishing through holes in
it.
The Germany-like version would be that there's a government official >(sheriff) taking this judgement (e.g. by measuring the ice thickness on
the thinnest part of the lake) and publishing the official decision in
the county newspaper.
In Minnesota I guess that the ice fishers first leave their cars by the
side of the lake to saw the first hole and measure the thickness. Once
the ice is thick enough to carry a car by the indiviual judgement of the
ice fisher, he drives his pickup onto the ice to open an ice-fishing
hole in the middle of the lake. As soon as there's one car on the lake,
ten others follow (and this is a further problem: when the ice is stable
to hold one pickup truck per acre but a second pickup drives directly
next to the first one, causing them both to sink into the lake, are the >drivers deemed jointly in violation or is only the second driver
violating the law for not keeping an appropriate distance?).
Rolf
Am 02.11.2023 um 23:47 schrieb John B.:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:29:49 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:
Am 01.11.2023 um 02:53 schrieb John B.:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:59:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>>> wrote:the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend. >>>>>>>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race >>>>>>>>>> without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill. >>>>>>>>>>
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington >>>>>>>>> road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on >>>>>>>>> your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-) >>>>>>>>
be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay
for this. So don?t want bikes.
Can?t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a >>>>>>> choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation, >>>>>> drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike
crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's >>>>>> lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply >>>>>> forbid bicycles.
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so
on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Roger Merriman
Well, they do have restrictions for cars to drive up the mountain and
even some cars are banned. See
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.%3E
As I was a small boy the only time we ever drove up the mountain, so I >>>> don't know all the "ins and outs", but I would comment that New
Englanders, in general, tend to be pretty rational people and most
"You can't do that" rules are the result of someone doing it with
disastrous results... There was lake about 5 miles from town and there >>>> was a law - "You are forbidden to drive your car on the lake", which
does sound rather strange, but it was because people had driven their
cars onto the lake after it "iced up" and broke through the ice and
drowned.
This does not sound like a meaningful wording of the law. The
Minnesotan version would be 'you must validate that the ice is thick
enough before you drive your car onto the lake' (normally that's fine
from December to end of February).
And how does one " validate that the ice is thick enough"? After all,
there people skating on it, sailing on it. fishing through holes in
it.
The Germany-like version would be that there's a government official >(sheriff) taking this judgement (e.g. by measuring the ice thickness on
the thinnest part of the lake) and publishing the official decision in
the county newspaper.
In Minnesota I guess that the ice fishers first leave their cars by the
side of the lake to saw the first hole and measure the thickness. Once
the ice is thick enough to carry a car by the indiviual judgement of the
ice fisher, he drives his pickup onto the ice to open an ice-fishing
hole in the middle of the lake. As soon as there's one car on the lake,
ten others follow (and this is a further problem: when the ice is stable
to hold one pickup truck per acre but a second pickup drives directly
next to the first one, causing them both to sink into the lake, are the >drivers deemed jointly in violation or is only the second driver
violating the law for not keeping an appropriate distance?).
Rolf
On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 10:38:05 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:
Am 02.11.2023 um 23:47 schrieb John B.:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:29:49 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:
Am 01.11.2023 um 02:53 schrieb John B.:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:59:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>>>> wrote:the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote:While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend. >>>>>>>>
wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks
like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race >>>>>>>>>>> without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill. >>>>>>>>>>>
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd> >>>>>>>>>>> 12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which,
I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington >>>>>>>>>> road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on
your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-) >>>>>>>>>
be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay
for this. So don?t want bikes.
Can?t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a
choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation, >>>>>>> drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike >>>>>>> crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's >>>>>>> lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply >>>>>>> forbid bicycles.
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so
on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Roger Merriman
Well, they do have restrictions for cars to drive up the mountain and >>>>> even some cars are banned. See
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.%3E
As I was a small boy the only time we ever drove up the mountain, so I >>>>> don't know all the "ins and outs", but I would comment that New
Englanders, in general, tend to be pretty rational people and most
"You can't do that" rules are the result of someone doing it with
disastrous results... There was lake about 5 miles from town and there >>>>> was a law - "You are forbidden to drive your car on the lake", which >>>>> does sound rather strange, but it was because people had driven their >>>>> cars onto the lake after it "iced up" and broke through the ice and
drowned.
This does not sound like a meaningful wording of the law. The
Minnesotan version would be 'you must validate that the ice is thick
enough before you drive your car onto the lake' (normally that's fine
from December to end of February).
And how does one " validate that the ice is thick enough"? After all,
there people skating on it, sailing on it. fishing through holes in
it.
The Germany-like version would be that there's a government official >>(sheriff) taking this judgement (e.g. by measuring the ice thickness on
the thinnest part of the lake) and publishing the official decision in
the county newspaper.
In Minnesota I guess that the ice fishers first leave their cars by the >>side of the lake to saw the first hole and measure the thickness. Once
the ice is thick enough to carry a car by the indiviual judgement of the >>ice fisher, he drives his pickup onto the ice to open an ice-fishing
hole in the middle of the lake. As soon as there's one car on the lake, >>ten others follow (and this is a further problem: when the ice is stable
to hold one pickup truck per acre but a second pickup drives directly
next to the first one, causing them both to sink into the lake, are the >>drivers deemed jointly in violation or is only the second driver
violating the law for not keeping an appropriate distance?).
Rolf
https://www.weau.com/2023/01/23/6-cars-fall-through-iced-lake-minnesota/ >https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/pickup-truck-breaks-through-thin-ice-on-southern-minnesota-lake/
https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/education_safety/safety/ice/ice-stats.pdf
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 15:29:49 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:
Am 01.11.2023 um 02:53 schrieb John B.:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 14:59:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:35:43 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>the FAQ quotes its due to its use by cars
wrote:
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:37:51 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:While it is a long steep hill, there are others but Mt Washington seems to
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 19:18:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:04:54 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
Maybe in the U.K. but in the U.S. the 2022 Mt. Washington race looks >>>>>>>>>> like both disc and conventional are in use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VpQGQa8FU
That's a hill climb race. One could probably do an all uphill race >>>>>>>>> without any brakes and take a bus, truck or car back down the hill. >>>>>>>>>
Notice the red gradient profile:
<https://pjammcycling.com/climb/8.Mt-Washington-Auto-Rd>
12% average grade. Yikes.
(:-) Well the guy did say "even the uk (U.K.) hill climb bikes" which, >>>>>>>> I assumed included those used in races (:-)
P.S. you are not allowed to ride a bicycle down the Mt. Washington >>>>>>>> road. You must haul it down on a truck, car, (or maybe carrying it on >>>>>>>> your back). One assumes that this is based on experience (:-)
Oh. I didn't know that. That's probably the safest way to descend. >>>>>>
be privately owned and used so folks can drive up to the viewpoint, and pay
for this. So don?t want bikes.
Can?t imagine bikes are any less dangerous on such a road, seems like a >>>>>> choice was made.
I don't know. I was a little boy when my folks, probably on vacation, >>>>> drove us all up to the top, but I suspect that someone on a bike
crashed going down the mountain and, someone, probably, the Site's
lawyers recommended that to avoid suits it would be best to simply
forbid bicycles.
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.
It doesn’t appear particularly challenging descent good sight lines and so
on. I’d assume it’s relatively relaxing to be honest.
Roger Merriman
Well, they do have restrictions for cars to drive up the mountain and
even some cars are banned. See
https://mt-washington.com/faq/#:~:text=Because%20of%20vehicle%20traffic%20on,riding%20bicycles%20is%20not%20allowed.%3E
As I was a small boy the only time we ever drove up the mountain, so I
don't know all the "ins and outs", but I would comment that New
Englanders, in general, tend to be pretty rational people and most
"You can't do that" rules are the result of someone doing it with
disastrous results... There was lake about 5 miles from town and there
was a law - "You are forbidden to drive your car on the lake", which
does sound rather strange, but it was because people had driven their
cars onto the lake after it "iced up" and broke through the ice and
drowned.
This does not sound like a meaningful wording of the law. The
Minnesotan version would be 'you must validate that the ice is thick
enough before you drive your car onto the lake' (normally that's fine
from December to end of February).
And how does one " validate that the ice is thick enough"? After all,
there people skating on it, sailing on it. fishing through holes in
it.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg >http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Am Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:15:25 -0500 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Wow. Could you explain? How would the cable be routed correctly?
Somewhat recent derailleurs work like these
<https://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/23/2362/2362685-shj0z5tkejjc-shimano_xt_rear_derailleur-original.jpg>
<https://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/attachments/dscf0384-jpg.577885/>
I suspect there is a piece of outer cable missing, it should look
something like this:
<https://up.picr.de/4493366.jpg>
My Peugeot PR60/L had a Simplex derailleur, when I bought it.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>
On 11/3/2023 9:15 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:15:25 -0500 schrieb AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Wow. Could you explain? How would the cable be routed correctly?
Somewhat recent derailleurs work like these
<https://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/23/2362/2362685-shj0z5tkejjc-shimano_xt_rear_derailleur-original.jpg>
<https://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/attachments/dscf0384-jpg.577885/>
I suspect there is a piece of outer cable missing, it should look
something like this:
<https://up.picr.de/4493366.jpg>
My Peugeot PR60/L had a Simplex derailleur, when I bought it.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>
Right. Here's the recommended installation from Daniel Rebour himself:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6f/3e/89/6f3e8940677e32995702383db6c7a1ae.jpg
On 11/3/2023 10:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:thought it would be possible to do that with the housinging coming in from the front and with the clamp screw at the rear, to eliminate the ~180 degree bend. Perhaps the cable run would need to be on the other (medial) side of the derailleur body, but it
On 11/3/2023 9:15 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:15:25 -0500 schrieb AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org>:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Wow. Could you explain? How would the cable be routed
correctly?
Somewhat recent derailleurs work like these
<https://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/23/2362/2362685-shj0z5tkejjc-shimano_xt_rear_derailleur-original.jpg>
<https://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/attachments/dscf0384-jpg.577885/>
I suspect there is a piece of outer cable missing, it
should look
something like this:
<https://up.picr.de/4493366.jpg>
My Peugeot PR60/L had a Simplex derailleur, when I bought
it.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>
Right. Here's the recommended installation from Daniel
Rebour himself:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6f/3e/89/6f3e8940677e32995702383db6c7a1ae.jpg
I've vaguely wondered about that cable loop. As with https://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/23/2362/2362685-shj0z5tkejjc-shimano_xt_rear_derailleur-original.jpg  the cable causes motion by shortening the distance between the lower end of the housing (within the red oval) and the cable clamp screw. I'd have
I guess I'm missing something.
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 11:56:15 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:25:39 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>The theory was it would smooth the pedal stroke and so on, but when tests
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any
Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>>>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large >>>>>>> contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this forOn 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of >>>>>>>>>>> features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the >>>>>>>>>>> customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they >>>>>>>>> apparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as >>>>>>>>> dramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted
became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the >>>>>>>>> advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes?
U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media
personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also >>>>>>>> oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to >>>>>>>> conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people >>>>>>> face these problems themselves.
claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank >>>>> arm is horizontal.
I guess that?s the theory but doesn?t seem to work, namely that folks don?t
pedal in the way theorised also linked to folks don?t pull up with any >>>> meaningful effect.
Roger Merriman
No, It must have "worked". Anyone can prove it themselves and in fact
mechanics tool boxes usually contain a multitude of tools that depend
on an extended lever arm to apply a greater force.
I think the reason it didn't become popular was that the difference in
diameter, from the center of the "gear" to the outer edge was probably
negligible, in terms of pedaling effort.
have been done to the best of my knowledge no power increase or calories
burned etc. lots of articles with claims but they canÂ’t back them up, ie
itÂ’s proof by assertion.
In terms of leverage is some stuff about crank lengths at moment on various >> cycling channels and similar.
Roger Merriman
(:-)
https://absoluteblack.cc/why-oval/ https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/blogs/worldwide-cyclery-blog/oval-chainrings-explained-why-you-need-one
https://off.road.cc/content/feature/oval-chainrings-what-are-they-and-why-you-need-one-13641
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_7cIzKh9w https://www.twowheeledwanderer.com/posts/oval-chainrings-hype-or-helpful/ (:-)
On 11/3/2023 10:56 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:thought it would be possible to do that with the housinging coming in from the front and with the clamp screw at the rear, to eliminate the ~180 degree bend. Perhaps the cable run would need to be on the other (medial) side of the derailleur body, but it
On 11/3/2023 10:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/3/2023 9:15 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:15:25 -0500 schrieb AMuzi
<a...@yellowjersey.org>:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Wow. Could you explain? How would the cable be routed
correctly?
Somewhat recent derailleurs work like these
<https://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/23/2362/2362685-shj0z5tkejjc-shimano_xt_rear_derailleur-original.jpg>
<https://www.rennrad-news.de/forum/attachments/dscf0384-jpg.577885/>
I suspect there is a piece of outer cable missing, it
should look
something like this:
<https://up.picr.de/4493366.jpg>
My Peugeot PR60/L had a Simplex derailleur, when I bought
it.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>
Right. Here's the recommended installation from Daniel
Rebour himself:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6f/3e/89/6f3e8940677e32995702383db6c7a1ae.jpg
I've vaguely wondered about that cable loop. As with https://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/23/2362/2362685-shj0z5tkejjc-shimano_xt_rear_derailleur-original.jpg the cable causes motion by shortening the distance between the lower end of the housing (within the red oval) and the cable clamp screw. I'd have
I guess I'm missing something.
Suntour tried something like that: https://live.staticflickr.com/7390/9943805504_438731c77e.jpg
Didn't sell well.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 11:56:15 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2023 09:25:39 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>The theory was it would smooth the pedal stroke and so on, but when tests >>> have been done to the best of my knowledge no power increase or calories >>> burned etc. lots of articles with claims but they can?t back them up, ie >>> it?s proof by assertion.
wrote:
John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:31:04 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>>> wrote:
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 5:38:24?PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:You have misunderstood, it?s another technology that struggles to prove any
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Roger, I have to wonder if you've ever used oval chain rings. They are >>>>>>>> destroy your pedal stroke and are uncomfortable to ride. A very large >>>>>>>> contingency did try oval rings and still do until they discover this for
On 10/30/2023 1:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:But not as much as if they had made it into mainstream, oval rings still
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 10/29/2023 5:28 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:Marketing isn't 100% successful. But there are plenty of >>>>>>>>>>>> features or products that sold well despite no real benefit for the
customers. Do we need to start a list?
(Actually, it might be fun.)
That kinda depends on the customer, for example used to get ultra >>>>>>>>>>> lightweight rim brakes on the UK hill climb championships, they >>>>>>>>>> apparently
where barely functional though very light, I have seen some folks using
ultralight rotors which is a similar concept though not quite as >>>>>>>>>> dramatic,
ie likely to still work but probably would cook on big hills and have
fairly short lifespan.
But marketing doesn?t seem all powerful, number of technologies and >>>>>>>>>>> fashions even have come and gone.
I think marketers don't generally care if the fashion that they promoted
became "gone." The important part for the manufacturers was that it sold
well enough in the first place. And the important part for the >>>>>>>>>> advertisers were that they got paid to advertise it. Magazines that >>>>>>>>>> promoted tech fashion sold magazines, too.
Nobody cared to give examples, but there are many bike fashions that >>>>>>>>>> surged, then vanished. Remember Shimano AX components and accessories?
How about Biopace chainrings? Or front freewheeling? How many bottom >>>>>>>>>> bracket standards can we list? How about Tri-spoke wheels? Delta brakes?
U-brakes?
I think all of those sold well enough to make some profit, then went >>>>>>>>>> away. And they all made a profit for the companies hired to promote them.
exist ie same basic idea as Biopace, but inspite of publicity and media
personalities ie Froome it?s note made it into mainstream see also >>>>>>>>> oversized jockey wheel and ceramic bearings.
Ie your massively over inflated marketing or PR abilities almost to >>>>>>>>> conspiracy theory levels.
Roger Merriman
them selves to the PR and hype actually to work as planned until people
face these problems themselves.
claims, so no I?ve not used it?s really not my thing anyway.
Roger Merriman
From a purely mechanical point of view the oval chain rings are
logical as the maximum force can be applied at a point where the crank >>>>>> arm is horizontal.
I guess that?s the theory but doesn?t seem to work, namely that folks don?t
pedal in the way theorised also linked to folks don?t pull up with any >>>>> meaningful effect.
Roger Merriman
No, It must have "worked". Anyone can prove it themselves and in fact
mechanics tool boxes usually contain a multitude of tools that depend
on an extended lever arm to apply a greater force.
I think the reason it didn't become popular was that the difference in >>>> diameter, from the center of the "gear" to the outer edge was probably >>>> negligible, in terms of pedaling effort.
In terms of leverage is some stuff about crank lengths at moment on various >>> cycling channels and similar.
Roger Merriman
(:-)
https://absoluteblack.cc/why-oval/
https://www.worldwidecyclery.com/blogs/worldwide-cyclery-blog/oval-chainrings-explained-why-you-need-one
https://off.road.cc/content/feature/oval-chainrings-what-are-they-and-why-you-need-one-13641
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_7cIzKh9w
https://www.twowheeledwanderer.com/posts/oval-chainrings-hype-or-helpful/
(:-)
Notice the lack of science to back up claims! They are lovely shiny bits
but like red cars being faster no science to back up claims.
Roger Merriman
On 11/3/2023 10:56 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:thought it would be possible to do that with the housinging coming in from the front and with the clamp screw at the rear, to eliminate the ~180 degree bend. Perhaps the cable run would need to be on the other (medial) side of the derailleur body, but it
I've vaguely wondered about that cable loop. As with
https://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/23/2362/2362685-shj0z5tkejjc-shimano_xt_rear_derailleur-original.jpg  the cable causes motion by shortening the distance between the lower end of the housing (within the red oval) and the cable clamp screw. I'd have
I guess I'm missing something.
Suntour tried something like that: https://live.staticflickr.com/7390/9943805504_438731c77e.jpg
Didn't sell well.
On 11/1/2023 9:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 8:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not
increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The
spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
You would be very much surprised at the degradation of
your average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
Just out of honest curiosity: Can you describe the
distribution of bikes on which your shop does maintenance?
What percentage are BSOs, what percentage are older "good"
bikes, what percentage are new sporty CF, what percentage
are mountain bikes, etc.? Your photos show a lot of high end
classics, but your description indicates a fair amount of junk.
Related to that: On one tour (across Pennsylvania, east to
west) my kid and I stayed overnight with an art professor
and his wife. He said he had always wanting to work in a
bike shop, so one year he took the summer off teaching and
did that. He was terrifically disappointed. He expected to
be working on fine machines, but instead dealt with abused
BSOs.
We buy complete brake wire/casing in a 100-pack, which go
about a year. Plus lots of separate wires (100-pk) and
casing (30 meter spools). I don't happen to have brake cable
photos but your average person's understanding of Bowden
cable is pathetic:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg >http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
On 11/13/2023 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:15:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/1/2023 9:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 8:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not
increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The
spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
You would be very much surprised at the degradation of
your average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
Just out of honest curiosity: Can you describe the
distribution of bikes on which your shop does maintenance?
What percentage are BSOs, what percentage are older "good"
bikes, what percentage are new sporty CF, what percentage
are mountain bikes, etc.? Your photos show a lot of high end
classics, but your description indicates a fair amount of junk.
Related to that: On one tour (across Pennsylvania, east to
west) my kid and I stayed overnight with an art professor
and his wife. He said he had always wanting to work in a
bike shop, so one year he took the summer off teaching and
did that. He was terrifically disappointed. He expected to
be working on fine machines, but instead dealt with abused
BSOs.
We buy complete brake wire/casing in a 100-pack, which go
about a year. Plus lots of separate wires (100-pk) and
casing (30 meter spools). I don't happen to have brake cable
photos but your average person's understanding of Bowden
cable is pathetic:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Which does rather demonstrate the mechanical knowledge of Joe average
cyclist (:-)
Not only.
Check out the youtube video series "Just Rolled In" for auto
mechanics' versions.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:15:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/1/2023 9:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 8:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not
increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The
spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
You would be very much surprised at the degradation of
your average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
Just out of honest curiosity: Can you describe the
distribution of bikes on which your shop does maintenance?
What percentage are BSOs, what percentage are older "good"
bikes, what percentage are new sporty CF, what percentage
are mountain bikes, etc.? Your photos show a lot of high end
classics, but your description indicates a fair amount of junk.
Related to that: On one tour (across Pennsylvania, east to
west) my kid and I stayed overnight with an art professor
and his wife. He said he had always wanting to work in a
bike shop, so one year he took the summer off teaching and
did that. He was terrifically disappointed. He expected to
be working on fine machines, but instead dealt with abused
BSOs.
We buy complete brake wire/casing in a 100-pack, which go
about a year. Plus lots of separate wires (100-pk) and
casing (30 meter spools). I don't happen to have brake cable
photos but your average person's understanding of Bowden
cable is pathetic:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Which does rather demonstrate the mechanical knowledge of Joe average
cyclist (:-)
On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 19:17:13 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/13/2023 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:15:25 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/1/2023 9:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 8:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not
increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The
spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
You would be very much surprised at the degradation of
your average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
Just out of honest curiosity: Can you describe the
distribution of bikes on which your shop does maintenance?
What percentage are BSOs, what percentage are older "good"
bikes, what percentage are new sporty CF, what percentage
are mountain bikes, etc.? Your photos show a lot of high end
classics, but your description indicates a fair amount of junk.
Related to that: On one tour (across Pennsylvania, east to
west) my kid and I stayed overnight with an art professor
and his wife. He said he had always wanting to work in a
bike shop, so one year he took the summer off teaching and
did that. He was terrifically disappointed. He expected to
be working on fine machines, but instead dealt with abused
BSOs.
We buy complete brake wire/casing in a 100-pack, which go
about a year. Plus lots of separate wires (100-pk) and
casing (30 meter spools). I don't happen to have brake cable
photos but your average person's understanding of Bowden
cable is pathetic:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Which does rather demonstrate the mechanical knowledge of Joe average
cyclist (:-)
Not only.
Check out the youtube video series "Just Rolled In" for auto
mechanics' versions.
I don't watch "informational" Youtube shows as in many cases (seems
like most) it appears that the narrator is another wannabe that thinks
he knows it all and wants to show everybody.
As for know it all myself (:-) I got a rude awakening at a
professional brake shop.
Now I can do a "brake job" (on an automobile) probably get finished by
lunch time if I make an early start, but I had a Japanese car that I'd
never worked on so I took it to a "Brake shop".Drove it in. Yes Sir,
can we help you?" "Yup the brakes don't seem too good." O.K., Sir,
just drive it over there on the rack".
So I did. got out and closed the door and they hit the ground running,
as the saying goes, and I drove out with new brakes 30 minutes later
(and that included paying the bill:-)
On 11/13/2023 8:00 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 19:17:13 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 11/13/2023 7:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:15:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>
On 11/1/2023 9:59 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/1/2023 8:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2023 5:44 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Good quality outers are Teflon lined and simply do not
increase in frictional drag to any detectable level. The
spring tension on the derailleurs is 99% higher.
You would be very much surprised at the degradation of
your average service bike's cables in any bike shop.
Just out of honest curiosity: Can you describe the
distribution of bikes on which your shop does maintenance?
What percentage are BSOs, what percentage are older "good"
bikes, what percentage are new sporty CF, what percentage
are mountain bikes, etc.? Your photos show a lot of high end
classics, but your description indicates a fair amount of junk.
Related to that: On one tour (across Pennsylvania, east to
west) my kid and I stayed overnight with an art professor
and his wife. He said he had always wanting to work in a
bike shop, so one year he took the summer off teaching and
did that. He was terrifically disappointed. He expected to
be working on fine machines, but instead dealt with abused
BSOs.
We buy complete brake wire/casing in a 100-pack, which go
about a year. Plus lots of separate wires (100-pk) and
casing (30 meter spools). I don't happen to have brake cable
photos but your average person's understanding of Bowden
cable is pathetic:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou19.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/rderou18.jpg
Which does rather demonstrate the mechanical knowledge of Joe average >>> cyclist (:-)
Not only.
Check out the youtube video series "Just Rolled In" for auto
mechanics' versions.
I don't watch "informational" Youtube shows as in many cases (seems
like most) it appears that the narrator is another wannabe that thinks
he knows it all and wants to show everybody.
As for know it all myself (:-) I got a rude awakening at a
professional brake shop.
Now I can do a "brake job" (on an automobile) probably get finished by lunch time if I make an early start, but I had a Japanese car that I'd never worked on so I took it to a "Brake shop".Drove it in. Yes Sir,
can we help you?" "Yup the brakes don't seem too good." O.K., Sir,
just drive it over there on the rack".
So I did. got out and closed the door and they hit the ground running,Not complex. A girl could do it:
as the saying goes, and I drove out with new brakes 30 minutes later
(and that included paying the bill:-)
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/NRCTDISC.JPG
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Wouldn't it be nice if we had a conversation without the Stupid 4 posting 100 times a second?
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 299 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 79:37:53 |
| Calls: | 6,695 |
| Files: | 12,229 |
| Messages: | 5,347,656 |
